Missouri defeats Kansas, 74-71

  • 8 p.m., Feb. 4, 2012
  • Mizzou Arena, Columbia, MO

Sunday, February 5, 2012

Miserable ending: MU’s 11-0 end run dooms Jayhawks

The Missouri dance squad and fans erupt before Kansas players Conner Teahan and Tyshawn Taylor after a three pointer by Missouri guard Marcus Denmon put the Tigers up by one late in the second half on Saturday, Feb. 4, 2012 at Mizzou Arena.

The Missouri dance squad and fans erupt before Kansas players Conner Teahan and Tyshawn Taylor after a three pointer by Missouri guard Marcus Denmon put the Tigers up by one late in the second half on Saturday, Feb. 4, 2012 at Mizzou Arena.


Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Bill Self

Kansas coach Bill Self talks to reporters following the Jayhawks' 74-71 loss to Missouri on Feb. 4, 2012.

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KU vs. Missouri

Box score

— Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self walked dejectedly down a Mizzou Arena hallway late Saturday night, his path crossing that of former NBA 7-footer Will Perdue.

“Will, Will, Will ... we had that game where we wanted it,” Self said, as ESPN Radio color analyst Perdue nodded his head solemnly in agreement.

Self’s Jayhawks, who led by a whopping eight points following a baseline dunk by guard Tyshawn Taylor with 3:21 left, didn’t score the rest of the game in falling to Missouri, 74-71.

Taylor and Thomas Robinson had charging calls in the paint during the scoreless streak, and Taylor also missed a pair of free throws during a stretch in which Marcus Denmon exploded for nine of his game-high 29 points.

What happened?

“Everything. Everything,” Self said of the late-game meltdown that dropped KU to 18-5 overall and 8-2 in the Big 12. MU improved to 21-2, 8-2.

“I don’t think it was fatigue, but it could have been,” Self added. “We obviously made some really bad plays late that put them in position to win the game. They’ve still got to make shots. They had a guy who was unbelievable tonight. He played his tail off, made shots. We couldn’t get to the free-throw line (five of nine charities to MU’s 14 of 20) and turned it over (15 to MU’s 14). That was the difference.”

Senior guard Denmon hit 10 of 16 shots, including six of nine from three. He also had nine rebounds in 39 minutes.

“He made two threes where his body is turned sideways,” Self said. “Those are big-time shots. He made a 30-footer to start the game with perfect defense, a hand in his face. He made plays and was defended pretty well.”

Denmon hit a basket and foul shot, and after a controversial charging call on Robinson, hit a a three to cut the eight-point deficit (71-63) to 71-69. Following a turnover by Taylor (21 points, six turnovers, three assists), Denmon hit another three to give MU a 72-71 lead at :59.

Taylor missed two free throws at :41.3 and had a charging call on a shot in the lane at 9.8 seconds. Mike Dixon hit two free throws to boost the lead to 74-71 at 9.8. Elijah Johnson missed a wild three-pointer with two seconds left to conclude the action.

“We blew the game,” said KU’s Robinson, who scored 25 points off 11-of-17 shooting, with 19 points the second half. “Give them credit for making shots, but we blew the game.

“I didn’t want to lose to them. I didn’t want to lose to them,” a somber Robinson repeated.

Of his getting called for a charge in crunch time, Robinson said: “The ref saw what he saw. I don’t agree with him. He saw what he saw.”

Of the late-game calls that went against KU, coach Self said: “I was told I don’t want to see the tape by a couple people that watched it and were unbiased. They weren’t Kansas people,” Self said. “It comes with the territory. It didn’t come down to one call. We had the ball up six with under three (left).”

The Jayhawks left Columbia in likely their last trip to Mizzou Arena feeling like they definitely squandered a big opportunity.

“The last few minutes of the game ... we let it get away,” Kansas’ Travis Releford said. “It’s disappointing coming here, playing one of our better games (KU hit 53.6 percent of its shots to MU’s 52.1 mark) and not coming out with a win. They made big shots, we turned it over, and they took the game from us.”

“We did it to ourselves,” noted center Jeff Withey, who had four rebounds, no points and one shot in 23 minutes. “It’s a rough loss. It stinks. We had the win. We just let it go.”

KU will next meet Baylor, which also is tied for the league lead with just two losses, at 6 p.m. Wednesday, in Waco, Texas.


mumpy1 9 years, 4 months ago

Just you wait, Mizzou! Can't wait to make mincemeat out of you in Lawrence!!!!

baldwinjhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

Is Withey injured? Why wasn't our best free throw shooter on the floor at the end of the game?

tahlhyker 9 years, 4 months ago

I also do not understand this - 17 seconds left, if you miss you have to get the rebound, he is our best offensive rebounder, we have a tremendous height advantage, in that situation if you get it to TRob they are going to swarm him - throw it over the top to the weak side, our best FThrow shooter... I would pick HCBS over all others... but dang, I don't get that. Any articles out there on what the thinking was?

UmbertoConforti 9 years, 4 months ago

I don't think Self substituted very intelligently the entire game. I really wonder why Teahan played so much. People gripe about Taylor's inconsistency. He is Mr. Consistent compared to Teahan.

Also, the referees called a really bad game. KU had to play as if they were playing on egg shells after the first three minutes. Of course, I only saw the game on TV and the angles from which it was shot sucked. I don't know whose to blame for one of the worst telecast jobs of the season. Moreover, the commentator with Vitale is weak at BB. He is better at boxing and golf. Vitale was much better than usual announcing this game. He understood what was happening.

Missouri is fast, really fast. Too fast for referees. The Missouri outside shooters are good, really good. They can also drive to the basket. However, they live and die by the three pointer. Duke had a team like this several years ago. I would have bet they would be national champions. They weren't that year because they caught a night against a good team in the NCAA playoff when Duke was cold. Missouri will falter and fall this way.

Withey suffered from getting pushed around by smaller players. He hasn't learned to hit them on the head with his elbows properly. I suspect every coach in the Big 12 watched this game if possible. He can look forward to getting rousted almost every game from here on out. It works. Also Self doesn't have an enduring faith in Jeff.

All things considered KU did pretty good under the circumstances. Of course, losing is the s**ts.

LAJayhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

Here's a clear shot of Tyshawn's charge call, which this shows as blatantly wrong:

It's unfortunate that that call along with TRob's bogus charge call had such a big impact on what was a very good game. But at the same time, if we take care of business, it wouldn't even matter. If Taylor hits those two free throws alone, who knows what the ending would have been.

Still, look at that picture... it's speaks a thousand words......

Mike Kendall 9 years, 4 months ago


Nice picture. OK, my philosophy on officials is hey---part of the game, they make mistakes, too, and show some sportsmanship.

However, they go to clinics, practice games, exhibition games, etc., to get ready for the season. One knows, in a game like this, an official will have to take the "bull by the horns" and make an unpopular call (call that goes the visitor's way).

There are three games that I have watched in which officials have made some major blunders:

West Va. @ Syracuse---clearly a goal tend by Cuse---W. VA should have won.

K-State @ Iowa State---Wildcats get hammered at their end---no call---ISU gets the opportunity to win the game.

KU @ MU---your picture is worth a 1000 words!

Jack Hoover 9 years, 4 months ago

You could certainly have a career in stand up comedy. Bashing ISU while they are playing a team (K-State) that has written the book on how to hold, grab, mug, pinch, hip and rub their opposition to death and have the refs buy into it is asinine on your part. The announcers were amazed that the refs allowed a public mugging to continue the whole game. Only when ISU said enough and started fighting back did the tide turn. Wake up and smell the coffee as it smells better than this stuff you are currently spouting. IB

kusports1 9 years, 4 months ago

Hey iowaboy, try getting off a Jayhawk site and go smell your own a$$ for entertainment.

Steve Brown 9 years, 4 months ago

ref judgement is part of the game, comes with territoty, we have to make plays and stops and run our stuff. didn't use fully our advantages.

that said, too bad we had SEC refs, just sayin'

vd 9 years, 4 months ago

Nice picture. TT probably misses the FTs if the correct call is made.

Dan Harris 9 years, 4 months ago

he made the shot, it would have been and 1

baldwinjhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

I don't like to talk about officials, but Don Daily's dramatic jump in the air and fist pump charge call on TRob was disgusting to say the least.

okiedave 9 years, 4 months ago

On the road you have to expect the refs to cater to the home crowd. Just part of the game. At the end of the season, HCBS should send this tape to the home office so the ref can receive some educational instruction and improve as a ref.

Spencer Goff 9 years, 4 months ago

I mean, how the phuck are you gonna call a charge when the defensive player has his knees buckled because he is sliding over that much?

They had to be paid, can anybody be that massively bad at their jobs?

Part of the game is one thing, just plain sucking is another.

If MacTeahan and Taylor have to put up with ridicule I don't see any reason why the referees should not. Particularly when they were that bad.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

Love this picture.

It shows a moment in time that is illustrative of the real-time play (all description written as if looking at the play from the halfcourt line):

1) Tyshawn puts the ball on the floor and drives from right to left, slicing into the top corner of the lane as he does so.

2) MU player is running with Tyshawn as he drives into the middle of the floor

3) Tyshawn gets into the land and stops on a dime in preparation to change directions.

4) MU player realizes that Tyshawn is no longer moving right to left, and stops his own progress, but alas he has over-committed and now finds himself just to the left of Tyshawn, giving the little bit of daylight needed to drive at the rim.

5) Tyshawn resumes his motion, this time directly towards the basket, having gotten the MU defender to over-commit to the left side of the lane. Sensing the coming contact from the MU defender, he puts up a shot.

6) MU player, having given away his position, now goes "all in", knowing his only option to stop the play is to draw a charge. It's like that one bonehead everyone plays with on Poker Night who goes all in with a pair of twos and is rewarded by flopping two Aces and getting a third two on the River... but I digress. He leans back to the right (his left) in hopes of fooling an official into thinking he had established defensive position. Apparently, he also leans forward, INTO Tyshawn's vertical space, a part I didn't notice in real-time.

7) The rest is history. No matter how you slice establishing defensive position, the MU player hadn't done it...

Moving feet? Check. Leaning to the side to draw contact? Check Leaning INTO the offensive player's vertical space? Check.

Someone should check Don "I should have my eyes checked" Daily's bank account.

lonegator 9 years, 4 months ago

"To say that one call cost Kansas the game is ridiculous, a discredit to Missouri." - Jason King, ESPN. Quit whining about what could have been and try to take care of business from now on. I'm sure if KU loses again tonight, you will all be crying about something then too.

KULA 9 years, 4 months ago

I hear Mizzou hangs a banner in their field house when they beat KU.

BigJayhawkPhan 9 years, 4 months ago

If true, the good news is that they'll never get to hang another one! RCJH!!!

Calijhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

When Tyshawn dribbled across the court, into traffic, 35 feet away from the basket -- not even ATTACKING the basket and had it stripped...THAT was the play that killed us. Denmon goes down to the other and drills a 3....that one puts them in striking distance.To play that good of a game and make a dumb decision like that at the end...

The kid has talent, but sometimes his basketball sense takes a hike.

actorman 9 years, 4 months ago

Actually it started before that, when we were up by 8 and TRob forced one shot, then quickly forced another. We could have used up 30 seconds or a minute there and gotten a much better opportunity to put them away. But it was like that for the rest of the game, with people trying to do too much.

And what in the world has happened to Withey??? One shot and four rebounds in 23 minutes? That's pathetic.

KUFan90 9 years, 4 months ago

Not that it matters but on Robinsons traveling call his 1st shot actually hit the side of the backboard not the rim so there was only like 14 sec on the shot clock if he pulls it out there.

Agree bad time for Withey to disappear.

miajhwk 9 years, 4 months ago

you are exactly right, we were up by 8, t rob missed the first shot, got the rebound, and rather than throw it out to set up a fresh half court set, he forced another shot and missed. mizzou got the rebound and brought it back for a 3. that's a 5 point swing right there. instead of being up by possibly 10, we were up by only 5. mizzou stole the momentum (big defensive stop followed by a 3 on their home court in crunch time) and we didn't score again. that possession was the game's turning point. even if we hadn't scored, we could have killed some clock, as you said. 3 points was the difference in this one. eat another 20 seconds and it would have been much more difficult for the tigers to get the win in regulation.

up by 8 with under 5 minutes in the game you do not put up a shot until the shot clock is under 15. this was a mental lapse, pure and simple.

LngTimeFan 9 years, 4 months ago

Since the start of the season, TT has gone brain dead in critical situations as happened last night at game end. Inexcusable, and BS said as much during his post game comments. How can TT continually let this happen? Don't post back he's a kid, he is not a kid he is a 4 yr Sr. and this has been a problem going way back. The baseline dunk was spectacular, but near the start of the game and the latter part of the game TT makes the Hawks switch from team ball to street ball. MU shot lights out on 3's, especially MD. CT was in his face many times and MD made the shots so he had a great game. Gotta move on the Baylor now, and take care of business each game, ALL game, especially TT.

Bill Kackley 9 years, 4 months ago

You are so wrong to blame TT. What about Johnson, at the top of the key, wide open with the ball with about 4 sec. lef, doesn't take the shot and then gets covered and forces up an off balance prayer.

LngTimeFan 9 years, 4 months ago

If you had listened to BS post game with Piper he said essentially the same thing. The point guard mishandled the ball, missed free throws, and caused t/o's. At a key point in the game with an 8 pt lead, TT messed up big time. That's how I and others here can say that.

bradh 9 years, 4 months ago

We don't seem to take it inside the first half and wait until we're down and Self gets on them at half to pound the ball inside. When you know that's your strength going into the game, how could we not come out pounding the ball inside? That said, on a neutral court we would have beat them by 15.

PurePierce 9 years, 4 months ago

Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light, And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout...

jayhawker_97 9 years, 4 months ago

i hate mizzou fans in general, but their team played hard. and i don't think they'd win the trophy by depending on 3s only. they're lucky - guarding 3s has always been our weakness all season long.

Hail_To_Thee 9 years, 4 months ago

Gotta disagree with ya....

Guarding 3s has always been our weakness..... in the Bill Self Era.... Not just this season.

Dont get me wrong, I absolutley love Coach Self. Wouldn't trade hime for any other coach in any sport. But his teams normally dont guard the trey very hard. They have always sagged in alot and given plenty of room to good 3 point shooting teams. I know alot of the stuff that MU made last night was purely pulled out of their arses, but we are long enough in the wing span that we absolutely have to have a hand in the face of the shooters. You get a hand in the face, they cant see the basket, they have to rely on prayer a little more.

karken1992 9 years, 4 months ago

Agree guarding threes has been a major weakness. Don't think it was last night. KU guarded very well. MU probably only got 3-4 open looks all night. (made a couple of them). Most of the 3's they made were guarded fairly well. MU was freaking unbelievably hot (couldn't even begin to count the number of banked 3's or " shooters roll" 3's)

Ross Hartley 9 years, 4 months ago

Right. They were only7 of 19 before Denmon hit his game ending three 3s

jcourt 9 years, 4 months ago

You are so right, the man who is guarding the screener has to anticipate the move and switch. It doesnt seem like to much to ask but we always get beat by 3 point shooting teams. Every one knows MU is gonna shoot the 3 point shot, Isnt that something you can practice against. Misery

refugee 9 years, 4 months ago

This isn't a vintage KU team. Still, they had a chance to close out MU in their biggest win ever. What I saw is that, like KU, MU is in that second tier behind UK, Cuse, OSU and likely UNC. Teams that watched last night's game are likely much more afraid of drawing the 'Hawks in March than the tiggers. With all that supposed speed, MU didn't seem to have the advantage driving the lane. They had fewer steals, no fast break and really had no half court offence other than to jack up contested threes or get iffy calls. I thought MU showed they're not that good.

FSJHAWK 9 years, 4 months ago

we played a good 2nd half until about the 2 minute plus mark and than the roof caved in. T-Rob got the short end of 2 bogus calls during the final 2 minutes. Perhaps the men in the striped suits gave way to the large missouri crowd ; but Thomas got the short end of the calls especially the 2nd one. That turned the game around to the tigers edge. It should have been a blocking foul on the missoui player because Thomas's shot would have counted plus a free-throw. Perhaps we need younger refs that can see the game better than these older over the hill refs with gray hair---Hay I have Gray hair and I know I'm to old to ref. games of this level . I'm Too old to ref -- lets hire some younger refs that can see the game better Maybe 45 to 50 should be the max. age limit. TT had played better untill the final 2 minutes. Why can he after 3 1/2 years not learn to pull up after driving thru the mo. defense and shoot a short 5 ' shot instead of driving recklessly out of control-- reminded of the earlier Duke game. He is a TOTAL LIBILITY at crunch time. How will he able to control Himself in the NCAA playoffs?

LAJayhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

"Maybe 45 to 50 should be the max. age limit."

Maybe, except that would be against Federal law.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

Not if the organization in question (in this case, the NCAA) can show a measurable and distinct correlation between an age limit and job effectiveness.

Age and sex discrimination are only technically illegal under Title VII if the discrimination has no bearing on a given business' revenue model.

Of course, they could avoid any threat of a lawsuit by simply instituting an annual test of motor skills and perceptive ability to determine if a ref was "past his prime", so to speak.

Ron Franklin 9 years, 4 months ago

Unbelievably disappointing.

Bad plays and bad decisions all around.

Cmill1221 9 years, 4 months ago

Whatever. MU won the only game they care about. They will lose to A&M and probably Baylor. If KU takes care of business we have no problems winning our 8th.

LAJayhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

They have to play Baylor at home. They have a very good chance of winning that game.

Still, if we win out, we own the conference title outright. We determine our own destiny with respect to 8 in a row.

David Howell 9 years, 4 months ago

8 in a row ...... Are you friggin nuts ! Have you not noticed our inability to do some of the small easy things correctly ? The fact that we have a bench, but not really and teams have easily figured that out.

I for one would rather lose a couple more games and hopefully get the kinks out or at least more manageable by the big dance. Does winning another conference championship really matter if we have another early exit ? NO !

tampajayhawk83 9 years, 4 months ago

First of all, let's stop blaming the refs. And, all the rationalizing with "they were lucky." Missouri is that good. They have been shooting three's like this all season. But Mizzou didn't win. We lost. We are not even in this situation if we simply bring the ball down, up eight points, and manage the clock. It would have forced Missouri to start fouling to get the ball back rather than us burning a few seconds and trying to score. Eight points is a three possession game. You burn a minute and a half just holding the ball for 30 seconds each possession. Of course, you have to hit the free throws but this was all on clock management.

David Brown 9 years, 4 months ago

Agree about the refs. Only losers complain about "being robbed". The calls were made: deal with it. Totally in agreement with Mizzou not winning but KU losing the game. We gave it away, we had them right where we wanted them. Given Denmon credit, he hit big shots at the end when his team absolutely needed it. How about these points: (1) Was Teahan suppose to be guarding Denmon on multiple possessions down the stretch? Don't like that defensive matchup. Of course, MU has other three point shooters who can kill you too and you don't want Teahan on them either. (2) "Bad" Tyshawn surfaced at a critical stretch of the game. However, his play the rest of the game was stellar. Turnover, two missed FT's, and a charge. Ouch. (3) Did EJ pass up a mostly open three to tie at the very end, but chose to pass? Wow, so close, but yet.............. Conference game on the road, rivalry game, ESPN GameDay, and we had them, ready to crush them, ready to keep the lead in Big 12, yet the Tiggers pull one out. Darn!

Jeffery Barrett 9 years, 4 months ago

Great summation, Juan. I could not believe what I was watching the last 2 minutes. I was yelling at the tv so loud my wife had to leave the room!

Mike Kendall 9 years, 4 months ago

Even Bill Self said something about the refs. I think Self knows what he is talking about.

miajhwk 9 years, 4 months ago

the t rob call was right anyway. dude was set. that's a charge. i didn't get all the "controversey" on that call, he was set for nearly a half second, i didn't even think it was close.

tt call was wrong, dude was dragging his leg when they collided. that's a block. that play was maybe a little more bang bang than the t rob play but usually the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt. replay showed it was a block.

SaltLakeHawk 9 years, 4 months ago


completely agree. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what the controversy is. Sure, it was "ticky tack," but Robinson did make contact when the guy was set.

Taylor's charge? That's the blown call.

Andy Tweedy 9 years, 4 months ago

I don't know if it was the right call, but in real time, I can certainly understand why it was made. I think people are just looking for someone to blame so they can feel a little better about losing.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

Dude was set... a location on the floor adjacent to where Robinson's body actually went.

That's not a charge.

Mike Mainzer 9 years, 4 months ago

Great point - T Rob going baseline with 3 to play instead of playing four corners and getting the clock down was pivotal.

baldwinjhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

True but... Don Daily is the worst ref ever!

Sparko 9 years, 4 months ago

But they were the biggest factor. Kansas did not get a 50-50 call all night. Had 11 less freethrows and had three very controversial charging calls in the last three minutes. It mattered.

KUGreenMachine 9 years, 4 months ago

All I can say is that it was a vintage MU team. Live or Die by the 3. 9 of 10 times they lose this way. Just like 9 of 10 years they are plain aweful. That was their 1 game and this is their 1 year. Congrats MU. You won your superbowl last night.

Mike Barnhart 9 years, 4 months ago

Disagree. This MU team is way different. Good, not lucky. Well coached, not tricky. We'll get them in Allen then one last time in KC. That'll be sweet!

jhox 9 years, 4 months ago

This one hurts. I agree with FSJHAWK, in that I wish our guys would learn to pull up for the 5 foot jumper instead of leaning in on our drives. When you leave it to the discretion of the refs, that's not always going to turn out the way you like. I didn't have a big problem with the charge on TRob, but the last charge on Taylor was just a horrible call. There is a great picture on the front page of the sports section of the star, and you can clearly see the MU player flopping before any contact took place. Also, there is no way he was set. He crowded Taylor and was sliding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we didn't even get into the 1 and 1 bonus either half (the last couple of fouls we had go against MU were shooting fouls, so they may or may not have had seven fouls.In any event, I'm pretty certain we didn't shoot a 1 and 1 the entire game.) That's 3 road quarters in a row. If I didn't know better I'd start wondering if there was a conspiracy to stop our conference championship streak at 7. Either that, or MU smuggled in SEC refs for this one.

Oh well, that's all sour grapes on my part. If we just milk some clock and take care of the ball the last 3 minutes, we win regardless. Also, you have to give Denmon and Dixon credit. Those two guys came to play, and hit some really tough, well defended shots. Makes you wonder what we would be like with a guy like Denmon shooting 3's. Self and the staff need to watch the KC area a little more closely for talent. We let the guy get away to Colorado a couple of years ago, and Denmon and Dixon...All 3 are guys we could clearly have used. We recruit guards from all over the country, and can't seem to find a 3 point shooter, when there are some in our own back yard every year. I saw Willie Collie play the other night, and he would be the first big man off the bench for us if he played this year, yet we didn't start trying to recruit him until last summer. We can't let that sort of player get away from us when his high school is 30 miles down the road.

We definitely have to win at Baylor and KSU. If we can do that, I we'll still be in the driver's seat for the conference title. Let's get more than even and beat MU by 20 in Lawrence.

John Mueller 9 years, 4 months ago

tough loss.

Agree with game management.

We made some poor decisions down the stretch.

But, we knew at the beginning of this season that this team: had no depth, 2 really high ceiling guys and a few other average to below average (based on Kansas final four scale) type players.

And, what we got last night was a team that played extremely well for almost the entire game. And, i think we got our best basketball from every single kid except Withey. Not sure why he was so timid?

Not blaming him. We had the game won and made poor decisions down the stretch and lost. But, we needed him to try and score more and worst case create foul problems for Misery. Best case, he makes his free throws.

1 shot from a 7 footer against a small team is not to our tactical advantage.

TT was great last night, sans one out of control crash which was at a key moment.

TRob was brilliant and played with a ton of determination and heart, but made a couple of awful decisions as well. If i never see him shoot another 15 ft. jumper, it will be too damn soon. Don't do somebody else's job, just do yours and yours isn't a 15 ft. jumper, son.

vd 9 years, 4 months ago

Can't blame Withey, cause the coach didn't have him in the game.

Robert Murphy 9 years, 4 months ago

Why didn't you call him boy? He can definitely shoot the 15 ft jumper and should be taking a lot more.

nuleafjhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

That was a tough pill to swallow - being up eight with two minutes left and losing.

But - we got what we deserved. There are 2 or 3 players on our team that never have really gotten that "It's not how you start, it's how you finish" memo. They need to find it and study it.

As bad as I hate to say it, Missouri is a good team, and there's no shame in getting beat by a good team on their court.

John Mueller 9 years, 4 months ago

PS The Texas contingent of Jayhawk Nation will be in Waco Wed night.

We will be Jayhawk loud and Jayhawk proud.

If our kids play as hard Wednesday as they played last night, I will am extremely optimistic.

It's a fun gym to watch a game, cuz it's a pretty small place and Baylor people are by in large good sports.

We got some nasty comments on the way out of the gym last year about the football score. But a big smile and a "thank you for your hospitality!" creates unimaginable silence.

Hail_To_Thee 9 years, 4 months ago

Only in Mizzou arena do Zebras and Tigers run together.................

railer20 9 years, 4 months ago

I hate when people blame the refs....was it a well reffed game? Maybe not...never seen so many charge calls against one team in my life. But my point is we had all the opportunities in the world to win and we did it ourselves. From Taylor running down the court not even thinking about offense and jacking up a guarded three, to his dribbling around like and idiot and getting stripped, to T-Rob forcing a couple shots. I thought we played OUTSTANDING until the final 3 minutes which is was crunch time.

And to all you pissing about Withey...Robinson and Denmon got almost every rebound off missed shots. When both teams shoot over 50% there aren't many rebounds to be had. He caused 3 traveling violations that I can remember becuase he scares people around the basket, and that is what we need him for most.

Hail_To_Thee 9 years, 4 months ago

Did we give ourselves plenty of oppurtunity for a W? Yes. Could/should we have walked out of that gym with a win? Yes

We was on the verge of locking up the win, WHEN THE REFS CALLED TWO CHARGING FOULS with under 3 left on the clock, which swung the momentum back to MU. Refs make the correct calls on those two, momentum stays with the hawks, we go up by double digits. MU starts fouling to try and squeeze out a few more possessions, and we win by 15ish.

Period. The refs decided who would win that game with the two incorrect calls during the crunch. When the refs are obviously not calling as fair as they should be, its only natural for players to get discouraged. Which is what ultimately happened. You work your tail off for 37 minutes, only to have the lead pissed away on two blatant miscalls.

Mike Barnhart 9 years, 4 months ago

Railer is exactly right. Add to that, MU is near the best in the country at taking charges. A lot of those "bad calls" were legit!

hawkinNE 9 years, 4 months ago

The two they are talking about werent "legit"!

hawkinNE 9 years, 4 months ago

You are a giant tool. I have read your previous posts, like the garbage above, and you seem like an idiot. Just my opinion.

hawkinNE 9 years, 4 months ago

Sorry jjjjhok but this post was for theend

Steve Gantz 9 years, 4 months ago

What's not being talked about in the referee talk is the numerous non-calls. One comes to mind where Johnson or Taylor, not sure which, gets driven to the floor, no call turnover. Another Robinson I believe, gets tripped, blatantly, no call.

On the other hand, we made quite a few mistakes down the stretch after a fabulous run.

Mike Kendall 9 years, 4 months ago


I agree. The no-calls were ridiculous!

joshar 9 years, 4 months ago

How come whenever I see Missouri fans type M-I-Z-Z-O-U or the new ones, M-I-Z...S-E-C or M-I-Z...D-G-B, I hear the song M-I-C...K-E-Y...M-O-U-S-E?

LngTimeFan 9 years, 4 months ago

Yes, but gotta give the MU fans far more credit than in the past, they were even half way civil cmpared to past years. And, the not storming the court was good. Wonder if Haith didn't say something about lets show some class, vs the crap Norm Stewart used to think was neat. MU finally seems to have a good coach. Ours is better though.

WilburNether 9 years, 4 months ago

Let's face it: Last night was one of the biggest chokes in the history of Kansas basketball.

wisjayhawkfan 9 years, 4 months ago

+1 dude! those games still give me a sour taste in my mouth

joeloveshawks 9 years, 4 months ago

Really tough loss. T Rob and TT made some bad plays at the very end of the game but they both played amazing games. Really the only 2 guys who played great. T Rob really showed that he should be the POY. EJ had a pretty good effort but Releford and Withey both did not show up on offense. I think it hurts the most because we had it in the bag and let it get away. It also hurts because of how much I hate Mizzou. I hope they enjoy this one. It will be their biggest win for the rest of the year.

Shawn Otrimble 9 years, 4 months ago

After watching the KU- Iowa ST game and K-State-Iowa ST game, And now the KU-MU game. It looks like college basketball is becoming more like the WWE...Even Dickie V said last nights two calls were bad. When T-Rob was called for a charge it changed the game completely. That basket would of sealed the game. And Tyler's turnover was because he was slapped from behind by a player trying to foul him.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Travis Releford says above that it was "disappointing".......Understatement of the year. The perfect storm........the wind picked up and you could hear thunder when Trob took that stupid shot with 25 seconds on the shot clock and wehave the ball up 8. Hey....that kid had a great game.....but what a bad choice. Have to be smarter than that.

Oh's over. I'm still mad. But all in all....the boys played pretty well last night. That's a very hard place to win against a very good team.

fan4ever 9 years, 4 months ago

I've watched more KU games than most, and I usually don't comment on this post, but I have to say the calls that were made in the final minutes of last night's game reflect something very wrong with that officiating crew. And that was after they blew the call on Ratliffe earlier in the game. Even their coach who the foul was on.

We may have still lost for "other reasons", but those calls in the last three minutes of the game reflected REALLY bad officiating, or rules that need changing so that the referees cannot effect the outcome of the game.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

This is a great point. I've seen a few MU fans complaining about the "touch fouls" that Ratliffe was called for, but they have conveniently forgotten the foul on Ratliffe that somehow got assigned to someone else.

Even Frank Haith was getting ready to send in a sub for Ratliffe because it would have been his fourth early on in the game.

The more I think about it, just based on the FREQUENCY and egregiousness of the bad calls, it's hard not to wonder what the hell was happening in those officials' heads.

jahawkdave 9 years, 4 months ago

We lost because Missouri flopped and got the calls. 20 fouls to 10 to be exact. KU had at least 3 points taken off the board T Rob bucket late Young's lane violation, and Releford's charge in the first half, the only legit charge in the game.

T Rob stood his ground on the 3 point play late and got called because he didn't go to the ground, then the very next play the call him for a charge when a 260+ lbs guy flops like he got hit by a truck.

Then there's Tyshawn "I play like an all american 37 minutes and like a Freshman 3 minutes" Taylor. Not only did his play late kill us again. His leadership is non existent on the court. It is Taylor's job as much as self to lead his team late slow it down run some clock and not force up shots or push it up court only to get stripped, or dribble off your leg or fall down or miss 2 free throws late or ......

fljayhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

Taylors body seem to react faster than his mind and tends to cause him to run amok..

Mike Barnhart 9 years, 4 months ago

A personal stat I keep. Just the 6th time a Bill Self KU team has scored 70 points in regulation and lost! That means a team has to be incredibly H O T to beat Kansas' "A-game.

lovemyhawks 9 years, 4 months ago

I agree 100% with fan4ever and i'm still furious over the whole thing. i hate to blame refs but they were to blame last night. yes, maybe we made stupid decisions that helped that but those 2 horrible charging calls gave the momentum and turnaround to the nasty tigers..... no doubt about it at all. the game was ours and they stole it away. could we have recovered? maybe, but refs should NOT be able to determine the outcome like they did. love the comment about tigers and zebras too!! let's learn from this and go out strong!! RCJH!!

Mike Kendall 9 years, 4 months ago

Thank goodness it wasn't an NCAA Tournament game. I don't think you get those calls in the Tournament because of a neutral court. But you never know. It is unfortunate that at least two major calls were big ones that were obviously the wrong ones.

Chris1955 9 years, 4 months ago

I've seen KU lose games over the years. Not many, relatively speaking, but some loses that were especially painful in March madness games. I'm not sure that I've ever see KU flat out choke in the last 2-3 minutes of a game like this.

It was beyond painful.

Steve Brown 9 years, 4 months ago


This conf. trophy is still ours to win or lose. Let's get it and improved from this.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Possible but unlikely now. If you look at the schedules of all 3 teams(and ISU as well) does not look good for KU. But you never know.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

Don't be stupid. KU controls their own destiny.

We get two teams on the road that we flat-out destroyed in Allen Fieldhouse--Baylor and Kansas State--and these two teams have shown they can be beaten on the road.

And we get to rematch with a team that didn't even deserve to beat us on their home court this time around.

Consider me unworried just yet. Who knows--with MU having played their national championship on Saturday, a letdown in Norman is entirely possible. Wouldn't that be just so "Misery" to drop this game?

wisjayhawkfan 9 years, 4 months ago

Taylor kept us in it the first half and cost us the second half

minnhawk84 9 years, 4 months ago

Hot 3 point teams are dangerous to any opponent. Mid-majors who get hot with the three make life miserable for the Hawks and any other "balanced" team. UNI comes to mind -- no way they were supposed to match up with KU, but they did and they won.

Blame the refs? Thank the refs for putting Ratliffe on the bench for so much of the game -- that was a game changer in my mind that most posters blaming the refs aren't taking into consideration.

Great game, crappy ending. We've been there before, both on the incredible winning end (08 National champs) and in the "agony of defeat" again last night. And don't forget an undefeated #1 seed KU "team of the century" who lost to upstart Arizona in the NCAAs because of the 3 and a 3 guard offense.

We have an overachieving group of guys who are playing much better than anyone dreamed they would be capable of doing at the start of the season. Again, great job Coach Self, we are very very fortunate to have you.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

UNI not only won.....but won easily. They destroyed KU. That was a terrible game. Funny but I saw UNI play a lot that year and was terrified KU would get them.....and it came true.

Spencer Goff 9 years, 4 months ago

What UNI game did you watch? They won by a deuce and until Farkuakaufmahamfanahalfash hit the most unwise three pointer he has ever taken in his life it was in doubt. I seem to remember that game differently, because I remember UNI being thankful the game clock ended, as the Morris were bringing us back.

Spencer Goff 9 years, 4 months ago

"Blame the refs? Thank the refs for putting Ratliffe on the bench for so much of the game..."

Most ridiculous statement about that game I have read. Ratlip should have fouled out except they switched a foul to another player to not saddle him as much as he was. Ratlip earned every foul called and then some.

Another officiating crew and he fouls out with 7-10 minutes left in the game. Only Frank Haith believes that crew did us any favors.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

I see losses at Baylor,KState and possibly at OSU........will win our home games except possible loss to MU. .....22-9? Lets hope we can win at A&M and beat TX at home.

Fasten your seastbelts everyone......could be a rough road ahead. But we will still be around in March.......Maybe it will be good for us to go in as a 5 or 6 seed? Who knows? What was KU seed in 1988?

wisjayhawkfan 9 years, 4 months ago

i would love to be a lower seed. seems like you get to be too much of a target when they are a 1 or 2

rockchalker5 9 years, 4 months ago

So we lose the toughest game on our schedule by 3 pts and you all the sudden think that we're gonna lose the rest of our road games? You sir are a fool.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

I hope I am a fool.....I just think kits a possibility.

greg robinson 9 years, 4 months ago

After a mostly sleepless nightmarish night I woke to this revelation which is helping to untie the painful knot in my stomach. Somewhere in America in a Buffalo WildWings someone exclaimed "Man, this game is awesome. I don't want it to end". Unfortunately the incompetent refs were unable to exert their influence properly and cause a tie. Now we have to wait to inflict the beatdown in Lawrence. I think this can be a huge catalyst and this season can finish well.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

I hope you are right and certainly possible. But my fear is that this could cause the opposite......especially with a road trip to Baylor in a few days. I would have to predict a loss in that one. Could be a big let-down after that loss.

It wont sit well with many......but I'm predicting 4 more losses through the end of the season. Hopefully I'm wrong. Lets just make it into March.....that's all that I care about.

kkoenig 9 years, 4 months ago

good game. ku had it then lost it. and we finally realized that the two teams match up just like you'd think from looking at the rosters: ku's big(s) vs MU's guards. KU defended MU's bread-and-butter plays very, very well. Ratliffe shoots such a high percentage because the guards drive the lane so well. KU took that away and made Ratliffe play defense. The risk Self took -- and there's no way he wasn't aware of it -- was who does Teahan guard. Denmon came in shooting poorly, so that was the percentage play. But once Denmon came out playing to his averages, Self was stuck. Can't shift Teahan tp P. Pressey or Dixon or your bigs will be forced into fouls. Self will need to figure out how to handle that matchup in Lawrence, or it will be a closer game than any KU wishes.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 4 months ago

I know some don't want to blame officials. And not talking about the game last night. Forget that for a moment. Officials do decide games. They will pathetically say that don't. I can assure you I have hundreds of examples -- here's one: In a youth football game once, I saw a ref call back a last second touchdown, as the clock expired, on phantom block in the back .. video on the player he called as the offender showed he didn't touch the other player .. and the ref, and head of officials, could not bring themselves to even admit a mistake. Relying on "it's what the ref 'saw' that counts", not the video. Further, they made a point of saying the ref did not decide the outcome as many other things could have happened in the game to change the outcome. That is their warped world. Many things can decide the outcome .. officials' calls are one of them, and when it's late, with all the water under the bridge, it's more important because there is no time to undo what the official did. You can say that an official "didn't decide the game." That a team had many chances.

Back to the game.

But ask yourself this question regarding the game last night -- on just one official's decision. If the official does not call the charge on TRob's spin move, understanding that bucket went in, do you think we win?

Add in the second horrible call ... calling TRob for the block just before that when the video proves he was standing still, not moving, feet planted. And the MU player jumped into him. That resulted in an extra point for MU on the free throw.

Crap like that decides games.

Of course, TT hits his free throws; Self calls a competent play in the last 20 seconds; etc.; that decides games .. too. Not exclusive of one another. But as well.

Jack Wilson 9 years, 4 months ago

Remember, they can't criticize the officials.

But you did not refute the point or answer the question. Does KU lose if that charge call is not made?

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

Yeah, because players and coaches ALWAYS are completely candid with regards to officiating, aren't they?

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Agree.....look at the foul numbers......double against KU. I wont go as far and blame the refs though.......KU screwed up bigtime at the end

BCRavenJHawkfan 9 years, 4 months ago

HEM, The other factor related to the TRob charge was that it placed him close to being disqualified. As a result he could no longer be as aggressive has he had been for that half. This meant points off the board and limited his ability to put points on the board. It was bound to happen. Haith was lobbying very hard that entire half, mostly to deaf ears, until the final MU time out, where he doubled down on the lobbying. I for one can't blame our guys for NOT milking the clock. They were feeling it and had the momentum. All too often shutting it down into cautious mode leads to defeat as well.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

"I for one can't blame our guys for NOT milking the clock. They were feeling it and had the momentum. All too often shutting it down into cautious mode leads to defeat as well."

Totally, wholeheartedly agree.

2:30 is way to early to play the 'milking the clock' game. When a team is rolling as much as KU was right before the zebra stuck his fat nose into everything, it's better to keep trying to score in rhythm, rather than imposing some false 25 second delay on each offensive possession.

Typically, teams are rewarded for being aggressive, as it relates to fouls. Well, at least that's what we all were led to believe after our loss to Iowa State last week--the prevailing logic was that Iowa State was only called for FOUR second half fouls because KU just wasn't aggressive enough and didn't force them to foul.

Also, I'll again reiterate that Frank Haith's constant bullying of the officials played an enormous role in this game, as you yourself have noted. I wanted to punch him in the face when the sideline reporter asked him about Kansas' foul trouble (I believe Robinson, Releford, Withey and maybe one other person all had two fouls apiece at that point) and he made some smarmy remark about Ratliffe being on the bench, therefore it was MU who was really in foul trouble.

Davoud Maha 9 years, 4 months ago

Mark my word. KU will play in the final 4 this year. This team has come a long way. They showed great poise. They have now lost 4 games where they should have won (Davidson, MU, ISU and Duke) . But that is ok. They are learning. This team was not even supposed to be this far. They lost 4 starters from last year and yet they are tied for 1 place in Big 12. We have the potential and chemistry to make it to final 4. Who cares if we win the Big 12 and end up losing in sweet 16. I much rather lose the big 12 and go to the final 4. But we have to play smart the final 2 minutes. This team will learn that in the next 4 weeks.

SaltLakeHawk 9 years, 4 months ago

I prefer winning the big 12, then winning the big 12 tournament, and then winning the national championship.

(I see your point though)

Chuck Stones 9 years, 4 months ago

I hate to, but you have to give MU their due. We have had many games, going way back, that came down to our opponent missing the last shot(s). Last night they made them when they needed to. It sucks, but it happens. Good thing it didn't happen against Davidson in 2008!!!!!

DallasJayhawk1 9 years, 4 months ago

It's over. Let's move on. None of us actually thought we would even be in this position in 1st place considering our overall line-up and lack of depth. Focus now is on Baylor.

REHawk 9 years, 4 months ago

Three minutes to play and Bill Self and troops have done a masterful job of shutting down Ratliffe and the Presseys. But Self couldn't control the multiple blunders of his two star contributors who failed at clock management and generated smiles for the Vegas prognosticators who, early morning, selected Mizzou by 2 1/2 pts. An unfortunate league loss. Gotta hope that it does not derail at least a chance to tie for the Big 12 title. To date, this has been a marvelous winning season for one returning starter and 4 of last season's bench players.

rodriguez33 9 years, 4 months ago

It's really hard to pinpoint ONE thing that cost us the game. I think Coach's call at the end of the game was pretty predictable, which is fine, but it was also poorly executed. Tyshawn, who has been known to play out of control, with a drive and dish to T-Rob for a game-winning dunk. It just turned sour after that questionable call by the guy in stripes. I think the biggest downfall was on the other end of the court where Teahan had two 3s drained on him (not in his face though because, let's face it, he wasn't even close to the guy and didn't have a hand up). It's easy to pick out the obvious reasons why we didn't win (bad call, missed FTs, &c.) but I think there are several other contributing factors that play a greater role. We were, after all, up by 8 with what? 2min left?? Defense wins championships!! It sucks to lose this one but at least we're ending the "border war" with a W when we play them at home. Rock Chalk!!

Martin Rosenblum 9 years, 4 months ago

Two lane violations and a foul on an inbouds play signify our lack of effective focus on this 40 minute event.

I believe it may have been HCBS who once suggested some responsibility for a number of points on the board for a home team where the atmosphere is like in Lawrence and Columbia. I believe this is credible and means the team with the best focus has the advantage as was shown after the 40 minutes expired last night.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

I had completely forgotten about the "lane violations".

Somehow, if I had to guess, I'd say that Don Daily called BOTH lane violations. I can understand the argument about KU needing to focus, but this team hasn't been called for a lane violation all year long, and we are expected to believe they committed TWO of them in one game?

Call me a skeptic.

Bee Bee 9 years, 4 months ago

Another game of 8 on 5 at MU. I m shocked!

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

No danno......we cant blame the refs. They made some bad calls.....but KU should not have been in that position in the 1st place. They choked. Played great for 37 min.....failed in the last 3. It happens. all in all I was pretty content. They played well in a tough place. It happens.

TwistedFish31 9 years, 4 months ago

No theend...had the correct calls been made by these biased idiots, it wouldn't have appeared that the kids didn't get it done. I prefer not to use the word "choked" because we're talking about 18-22 year old kids and you're using that word like you have actually done anything in your life. People sitting in front of a tv saying that a bunch of kids "choked" is just pathetic.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Yes....and calling professional referees that have an unbelievably hard job "biased" is ok with you??? Seriously.....? You think the 3 refs got together before the game and said "hey lets really stick it to Kansas because we have nothing better to do"'re the pathetic one. Also.....note in my commenty I said I we played well and I was content. But you selectively edit my comments.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

Yes, because the fact that they are professionals and their job is "unbelievably hard" excuses incompetence. /sarcasm

Just so we're clear, "biased" doesn't mean they necessarily conspired to fix the game. It can mean that they weren't objective--in this case, that objectivity seems to have been compromised by screaming fans and coach spending the entire second half lobbying for calls.

Biased? Absolutely. It's impossible to call the way the final 3 minutes were officiated "objective".

Conspiracy? Probably not. Most likely just severe incompetence.

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

So, KU up by 8 with the ball and scoring a basket to put the game out of reach for all intents and purposes was the position we should not have been in in the first place?

It's one thing if KU was down and the calls killed any chance at a comeback. It's another when the calls literally take points off the board and directly affect the advantage that KU had worked to attain up to that point.

Bion Ostrander 9 years, 4 months ago

There is a lot of blame to lay a lot of places for this loss and everyone has pretty much picked that a part in these blogs.

IMO, Withey not showing up against a guy 5 to 6 inches shorter than him is a big issue, and maybe that was part of KU's strategy to not post Withey up. In a game like this, Withey was more of a liability and if we had a betterguard off the bench we would have matched up better, because Mizzou got the better end of that match up.

My final point, I am concerned that in the two most recent games against better teams in the league, Iowa State and Mizzou, KU has blown leads and has been unable to get stops at the end of the game. Not only not get stops, these other teams played some of their best ball at the end of the games against KU.

I think that means KU is tired, although no one will admit it. And relief does not appear to be in sight with no help from the bench. So there are not a lot of options to correct this. And as the season drags on, I think the starter's legs will only become more dead at the end of games.

This recent pattern does not fare well for games coming up at Baylor and K-State, where the final minutes can determine the outcome.

It looks now as if KU will need wins at Baylor and K-State to ensure at least a tie for the Big 12, although perhaps they could win or tie with no more than 1 more loss.

Go Hawks, and lets hope someone off the bench starts showing up.

Kelly Knott 9 years, 4 months ago

I love everything about KU and the Jayhawks… The rich winning tradition, how year after year we represent a standard by which others measure their success. The underlying homage toward the Crimson and Blue was never so evident than in the following comment consistently spoken by Mizzou players and fans, “If we were to lose every game this season yet win against Kansas,,, we would consider it a successful season”; Confirmation that they view KU as the superior program. Maybe Misery should hang a banner in the empty rafters of their field house as a result of last night’s game.

JayHok 9 years, 4 months ago

Don Daily the ref made calls and Vitale and Gotlieb both said we got hosed. That's good enough for me.

KansasComet 9 years, 4 months ago

We lost the game because of confidence. Nothing else! Not the ref. Notice I did not say refs. The same ref made the two horrible charging calls. Anyway, we lost the game because of confidence. When the game is tight, the best 5 to represent the team should be on the floor. We needed stops and we needed rebounds and we needed free throws. I know that Jeff Withey did not have a great statistical game, but he is a starter. This is what I mean by playing 4 on 5. When it is time to win the game, the best players should be on the court. It is a mixed message sent to a young player and this can carry over to confusion when the tournament starts. Know your role, accept your role and embrace your role.

Yes Elijah did not take the 3, but he did not look nervous. He looked confused. Yes Teahan got burned on a couple of 3 point shots during crunch time, but he should not have been out there in that position. Everyone knows, including Missouri when they scouted KU that this kid is not quick with his feet. They took advantage of it, that is what they are supposed to do.

Thomas Robinson was un-guardable in the second half with Withey on the floor. Missouri had to worry about both. Withey's presence is enough to make a difference.

Confidence was at an all time high for Missouri with a 7 footer on the bench, and a slow footed guard on the court. It could not have worked out better for Missouri.

We played 4 on 5 in the last 3 minutes because Teahan was not a scoring option or a defensive option during this time. I know that he hit two great shots earlier, but as the game got tight, he did not even look for his shot. I am not saying this kid can't play, but there is a time and a place for him.

Tyshawn Taylor, in his defense had only two options at the end of the game, himself and Robinson. That is a bad situation for any point guard to be in. Releford and Johnson are more than capable and need to step up in those situations. We all know how well Jeff Withey shoots free throws, so he should be on the court for that, if nothing else.

We have the horses to win any game in any situation. Every game that we have lost this year, is because we fell apart as a unit. No one has kicked our but for 40 minutes all season. We have had a chance to win every game. We need to put our best 5 in during crunch time and believe in them, and then they will come through for us. Go Jayhawks! Payback is in 3 weeks!!

JayHok 9 years, 4 months ago

Don Daily the ref made calls and Vitale and Gotlieb both said we got hosed. That's good enough for me.

KULA 9 years, 4 months ago

Great game by the Jayhawks in hostile territory against a top tier team, but the bottom line is, we were up eight with 2 minutes to go and we...did not score again.

Even with TRob's bad call, you gotta be able to put that game away. Yeah, it was a bad call, but it was a homer call--in Lawrence the call goes the other way. That's basketball.

And as much as I hate to say it, Tyshawn failed in crunch time, with a turnover or two and missed free throws.

And I hope Bill realizes that at some point, he's probably going to have to play Naadir some meaningful minutes and he won't waste any more opportunities, like he did against OK with a 20 pt lead, to get him some seasoning.

Anyway, hope they learn from it and get ready for Baylor. Don't let this start a streak. (In Kansas, losing two games in a row constitutes a "streak").

rockchalker5 9 years, 4 months ago

Eveyone please stop whining about the refs. We had that game locked up, all we had to do was use some clock and not make bone head decisions. Trob had no business driving thru the lane like that in that situation, same thing goes with Taylor. Your up 8 pts with the ball with less than 3 minutes to go....any shot that goes up with more than 10 seconds on the shot clock is a bad decision.

Paul Christiansen 9 years, 4 months ago

That was the most surrealistic ending i have ever seen in an KU-MU game.

Two players do not make a team.

We could have milked the clock and taken an unselfish shot.

Credit MU with a never say die mentality.

Ron Franklin 9 years, 4 months ago

If this loss doesn't light an inextinguishable fire in Bill and his Boys' guts, nothing will.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

TwistedFish31 thinks there was a conspiracy amoung the referees to really get kansas last night. Apparently......the three refs descended into a secret room below the arena prior to the game to plan their diabolical plan as they listened to sinister organ music.

TwistedFish31 will stop at nothing to shine light on this evil conspiracy against Kansas.....and uncover this unholy campaign.

TwistedFish31 also blames the refs for the poor economy,global warming and for Pluto losing its status as a planet.

Yosemite 9 years, 4 months ago

Mike Alden shaking all of the ref's hand after the game confirmed this conspiracy. Marcus Denmon had absolutely nothing to do with KU losing this game.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

NEWSFLASH!! This just in.......TwistedFish31 now also blames refs for trade deficit with China.

More to follow......

Sam Constance 9 years, 4 months ago

This just in... theend is a waste of board space.

Oh wait, I pulled that from the Archive, not the Breaking News feed.

SORRY! False alarm everyone!

jcourt 9 years, 4 months ago

What a hard fought game that was, its not right to say any team deserved to lose. Its hard to imagine how a university motivated by greed and leaving the big 12. Gets all the calls down the stretch. It called the Celebrity Referee. T-Rob beat his man fair and square, that defender deserved to get dunked on. He never gained an unfair advantage. But here comes the Celebrity Referee, Thats his roar from the crowd. He is the guy who always got beat on that play but not this time, he is the star, he will decide the game. These guys just dont get it.They have to put their stamp on the game. This crew did a pretty good job most of the game, but then got caught up in the moment. We expect the players and coaches to maintain their composure, what does the conference expect from the referee. these guys need to be reviewed. Nobody want to see the Celebrity Referee.

JayHok 9 years, 4 months ago

I'll tell you this, look at the postings from any KU loss we've ever had. You'll never see grumblings like this about refs changing the outcome. If non biased Vitale and Gotlieb say we got hosed, I have to agree.

Hawks still choked but we also had three possessions taken from us, points taken off the board and two key fouls on Robinson.

I think I'll trust Vitale and Gotlieb on this and not the MU fans.

EastofKansasline 9 years, 4 months ago

Nothing like getting your cake and enjoying the icing next day reading all these mopey musings. Paid off refs, choking, good grief charley brown! Jayhawkers and their coaches are some of the worst when they lose. Invinciblility denial disfunction disorder is what many of you are suffering from today. It is disfunctional when a good team can not recognize they got beat by an equally proficient team.

M I Z.................. Beat Kay You!

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Not every KU fan is blaming the refs. I'm not. And I thought KU played well in a tough atmosphere. We just came up short.......MU played just enough better to win. Period.

sdku 9 years, 4 months ago

I'm sorry but why wasn't Releford guarding Denmon? He's the leading scorer on the team and he was shooting lights out! Self knew it but left Teehan on him! ARE YOU KIDDING ME! Teehan didn't even put his hand up on the second to last 3 pointer and totally lost him on the last 3 he hit. Teehan got scored on all game. We have our walk on Teehan guarding the #4 team's best player. Now I like Teehan and all but we have no choice but to play him and it's unfortunate we don't have Ben McElemnore as our wing player this year. Would of been a totally different team. Teehan is a defensive liability and no one is scared of his offense. He can only sometimes hit shots when he's open.

I want to put blame on Taylor at the end but that would be unfair, he was pretty damn good all game. I feel for him, he just had a couple bad plays at the end and was super nervous on those free-throws. Without TT we are not a top #25 team, I hope everyone gets that.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

"KU vs. MU Post Game Forensics: Genius Takes a Holiday or The Dead Team Keeps Walking"

My, what a large helping of humble pie stuffed with crow I have been eating all night! :-)

I called MU a Dead Team Walking before the game, an overrated team, a team that KU could beat handily in Columbia, if it played to its own MUAs, but not if not.

I predicted a 15 point win based on what I thought (and still think) were a large number of KU MUAs that MU could not take away.

For about 30 minutes of the game, Coach Self steadfastly chose not to direct the team to play to any of these MUAs, either on offense, or defense. The team, not surprisingly, struggled mightily throughout this stretch.

About the best I can say for Coach Self's strategy vs. MU is it seemed that Self intended to follow the same strategy he used vs. OU; i.e., play it anyway they want for 30 minutes, then go hard to his MUAs for a 10-12 minute stretch run and break it open.

And it very nearly worked again.

The ball ball began to be fed to Thomas in isolations created on the low block (point guard's right) and Thomas began to spin and take the sacred orange leather to the rim, scored efficiently and began to be fouled. At other times, 6-3 Tyshawn was isolated on 5-10 Pressey, drove lanes that were not clogged, sometimes down the paint, but most memorably on baseline right, and Tyshawn scored easily over Pressey.

Near the end, the KU lead was 8 and the game seemed to be unfolding exactly as Self had apparently hoped. KU had a lead it could sit on and would soon force MU to foul to get possessions. KU would move into a double digit win.

And that would have saved me from the vile after taste of crow pie, if...

TRob had not then forgotten for at least two consecutive possessions that KU was playing the clock and not MU; that he no longer needed to be a force to be reckoned with, as he had been for much of the game. All he had to do was catch, protect, pass for 20 seconds, and then move on to the low block with ten seconds on the shot clock, or alternatively clear out with ten seconds on the shot clock, and let 6-3 Tyshawn drive on 5-10 Pressey and take a hard earned lead to double digits and a memorable win in a last visit to Columbia, Missouri, hopefully, for ever.

In retrospect, it seems a small thing to remember in February in a big game with a coach reminding everyone of same, but it is TRob's first season starting and it is his first time carrying the mail in Columbia, where strange events are the rule and not the exception. Confusion leapt into his eyes. And as all great athletes tend to do, when in doubt, he acted like the power forward and scorer with a team strapped on his back that he has been all season, and tried to make something happen. Alas, he did so when nothing was needed but to wait and shoot foul shots.

Kelly Knott 9 years, 4 months ago

The true disfunction is mizzou not recognizing the homer calls they received that shifted the momentum back to them late in the game. KU has enough game sense to know when they've been beat by a better team, and last night wasn't one of those times. Reality... in a re-loading year for KU, mizzou, even with the help of the refs, barley wins in columbia by the skin of their chin. Because you don't know any better, you view last night as your National Championship... How flattering. Rock Chalk Jayhawks!

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

And as misplays at decisive moments often do, TRobs's series of misplays then cascaded into two and a half minutes of team disorder, capped with turnovers and missed FTs by TT.

It was as ugly of an ending to a KU game, as I recall, and there have been some ugly ones over the years.

It was--and I have to clench my teeth to write this--reminiscent of Memphis folding on KU in the 2008 Finals.

As Wooden said, you must be humble and respectful, because you will meet the same persons on the way down that you meant on the way up, or at least similar situations...only unfavorably reversed.

It was a good thing Bill Self was a good winner in 2008.

It was a good thing that Frank Haith was a good winner last night.

And it was a good thing Bill Self was a good loser last night.

KU cracked and MU did not.

Frank Haith was as intense, owlishly focused and steady with his 4 guard team, as any coach I have seen with a four guard team, since John Wooden. And I haven't seen one since then, at least that I can recall right now. But it was fitting that Haith was that way, because he has apparently successfully stripped a page from Coach Wooden's greatest coaching accomplishment--his short 1964 National Championship team. I would perhaps say Frank Haith has gone the Wizard one far. He has figured out how to stop tall players with short players, which Wooden also did, but he has also figured out how to get his short players to the line a quarter, to a third, to half again as much as the opponent's tall players do, something Wooden's squirts often did not accomplish as frequently, if I recall correctly. But that is as much as I will give Frank Haith now. Any other compliments must wait for a return engagement at AFH, and then the end of the season. I think MU will fall (and fall hard) to KU in AFH. I think several teams are going to beat MU badly down the stretch. But I thought KU would beat them handily in Columbia, so I must let experience be my cruel teacher for now and back off discounting MU until the beatings happen...if they do.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

Now, as a warning to those who cannot stand coaches being second guessed about their strategies, stop reading here, because I am going to second guess the hell out of Bill Self's decision to play MU anyway it wanted and essentially straight up for 30 minutes, before playing to MUAs. And I am also going to second guess him for the MUAs he chose not to exploit. And I am going to start with just some of those Self willfully chose not to exploit even to the end of the game.

  1. From tip off, and for every possession of the game, and independent of whether Self chose to play it MU's way with his bigger team, or not, over the top lobs to the bigs were open.

  2. Likewise, back door alley oops to Travis were open.

3.Likewise, stacking the bigs on the left side of the lane and low block post-ups of Tyshawn and Travis on the right were practically gimmes then entire game.

  1. Clearing out the side and letting Tyshawn drive Pressey to the iron were almost gimmes and would have fouled Pressey out with ten minutes to go.

  2. Feeds to Thomas who would turn and lob to a leaping Withey were flat unstoppable by MU's English. Period.

And there are probably more.

But to do these things, Self would have had to concede that his prime directive of "playing it any way they want," needed to be jettisoned for this game.

As everyone should know by now, I think Self is a basketball genius, and think his strategy of playing it anyway they want is one of the savviest ways to play the game ever conceived. But every strategy has an Achilles Heel by definition and Frank Haith, though hardly the first, saw exactly what it was, and just happened to have the perfect sort of team to exploit it against KU.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

The Achilles Heel of Self Ball is to give KU a kind of game that they are not very good at playing. Haith did this last night, and as we saw, Self will even take the disadvantaged game he is given and try to win at it. It is who he is and what he believes. If you give him a game his team is not good at, he will still settle for keeping it close and then striking on a series of impact plays made from MUA down the stretch and beat you that way. It works for him time and time again. He is never in doubt about this. Play it anyway they want, then deliberately look for the MUAs within that style of play until the end, then...Be patient...Believe...Impact.

Playing it any way they want is a brilliant strategy, because if you can match an opponent playing its style, then it has no option to resort to that it will likely be as strong at. Hence, if you beat them at their own game, or at least play them even, you force them to start looking for ways outside their comfort zone of beating you. If they succumb to the temptation, then you win (84% of the time).

But if they don't, and recently Fred Hoiberg and Frank Haith did not, and less recently Shaka Smart did not; then things tend to get hairy, or ugly, as Self might say; then things can go bad about as easily as they can go good.

But all strategies have assumptions and exceptions and so great coaches, all of whom have stubborn streaks a mile wide, because they need them to survive all the idiots (like yours truly) second guessing them, learn eventually that it is not only not a sin, but a virtue to diverge from your prime directive, when an anomalous circumstance dictates doing so.

Coach Consonants resorted to cheap shotting for an entire game to beat Butler, something even he did not condone prior to that night.

Coach Wooden once gave up his m2m, which he was just as devoted to as Self is, to play a diamond and one to beat Houston in the tourney, after Houston had beaten them during the season. And he did this, even with Jabbar returned to health from the cornea scratch that hampered him in the first Houston game. Wooden could easily have been stubborn and said, we almost beat them with Jabbar injured, so we're standing pat with m2m when Jabbar is well. But Wooden adapted and won. His adaptation created a surprise that gave his team an edge the entire game, or whenever he chose to exercise it. A younger Wooden almost certainly would not have adapted. Harsh experience seems to breed such adaptability in great coaches later in their careers.

Lesson: adapt, when ever doing so is a sounder solution to a problem than standing pat, even if standing pat might get the job done. The idea is to create the highest probability of winning, not to prove that you can eek out victories in order to prove the efficacy of a strategy under all circumstances.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

The first rule of the Marines is neither "never retreat," nor "don't pay for the same real estate twice," though those heuristics always rank high. The first rule of Marine strategy is "Do whatever it takes to get the job done." Marines have shown time and again that guys willing to waste entire cities, are also willing to play candy stripers and Santa Clauses if it will get the job done. The Marines aren't even totally wedded to winning. They are hopelessly monogamous "job doers." If you tell the Marine Corp to go in and hold a town till they are cut to pieces and every last one of them is annihilated, they will more than likely do it. It makes them feared and strong. It can also be used against them.

Put another way, nothing, no strategy, no honor, no rules of land warfare, not even pragmatic common sense is more important than getting the job done to the Marine Corp. This is why the Marines are traditionally so hard to handle for opponents, and why their culture doesn't necessarily produce the great alleged geniuses of strategy and warfare. "Getting it done" frankly ranks just a little higher than "genius" in the Marine Corp, not much, but a little.

In the US Army, with a different philosophy and culture, MacArthur was by most accounts a strategic genius. He pulled off some stunning victories with brilliant strategy and tactics. But he was also limited by his genius. If his genius could not solve a battle field problem, he lost. His troops were trained to execute his genius. His troops were not trained and conditioned to "do whatever it takes." This is not to criticize the US Army. They are probably the most feared fighting force in the world, because where as the Marine Corp looks at jobs, the Army looks at Grand strategy. When the US Army comes for a visit, they don't leave til someone cuts the purse strings. And they will use everything including the US Marine Corp to carry out grand strategy.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

The point is: One way is not better than another. They are just suited to different tasks. And each has vulnerabilities. In the Marine Corp's hall of dubious honors, Chesty Puller followed "do whatever it takes" on Tarawa to a ridiculously unnecessary level of slaughter in any logical sense of the analysis of warfare IMHO. And the phenomenon extends to all countries strategists. The French and English commanders in trench warfare of WWI "did whatever it took" for years on end in what of the great examples of strategic stupidity in human history.

The point of all of this is to say with some legitimacy that genius, too, is just as susceptible to misstep as any other human personality type, or strategic bend of mind. And sometimes genius takes a holiday at the worst times.

Just ask Napoleon.

And its often not hopeless circumstances that do-in geniuses. It is, rather, the choices they make when their genius takes a holiday.

The first assumption of Self's strategy is that his players are well rounded and can play it any way. Well rounded in this MU game meant 4 guys that could shoot the trey and that were highly mobile slashers on offense and defense and one that could muscle on the blocks. Only two of Self's starting five could match up this way at both ends. Travis and Elijah could not shoot the trey, only because Travis has a bad wheel and Elijah is mired in a Grand Canyon deep slump. Right there, Self should have reasoned, "We are not playing it anyway they want." We are not just taking whatever they give us. To do so was to violate the assumptions of his own strategy.

Letting logic be your guide is not always the best strategy. Intuition and inspiration and passion have their places, too.

But violating the assumption of your own strategy in order to keep using that strategy is almost always prone to failure, and even when it works, it works because the mistakes of the opponent mask your own misuse of your own strategy.

But Self's strategic failure in the MU game ran deeper.

The match up problems created by playing it any way they wanted did not stop with Elijah and Travis trey limitations. Jeff could not hold his own alone against the heavier MU post men, and he could not chase their smaller 4s (English) and have anything left on the offensive end. Had Self had any doubts about the above conclusion regarding Elijah and Travis, Self should have then reasoned, "Its a done deal with Jeff. We are not playing it anyway they want and we are not taking whatever they give us."

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

But the match-up problems created by playing it any way they wanted did not stop with Jeff either. Self's bench could not play it anyway MU wanted either. Justin could not. KY could not. And Conner was so-so at doing it, outside of his two timely treys.

So: Self assumed wrong about Withey, Travis and Elijah. And he flat out lived in denial about not having enough players on the bench to play 4-guard chase.

On offense, Self needed to play to MUAs on offense in the hi-lo from the very beginning. 7-0 Withey needed to get the ball again and again against 6-6 English. It needed to be lobbed over the top to Withey. It needed to be dished off to Withey. I needed to be fed to Withey. Which ever big was not guarded by Ratliff, needed to have the ball relentlessly the first half. And it did not have to be Withey. It could have been KY, even Justin. Justin can catch a lob.

Next, Self needed to do break out of the hi-lo, move his posts to the same one side of the lane, and post up his long guards and Travis on the opposite side.

And, and, and, all of the things I mentioned back near the top of this epistle and for two days before the game.

Doing this would have kept KU off it heels the first 30 minutes of the game, without significantly greater expenditure of energy. It would have forced the game to be played vertically and at the rim, where KU's MUA existed at every position. And it would have prevented MU from turning it into a horizontal game.

Oh, and one more thing, KU's greatest advantage lay in transition at the rim. And that was clearly MU's achilles heel. The one stretch we ran, we killed them. But you can't run if you let your bigs keep being drawn away from the basket and cannot board effectively.

And this leads to defense.

And defense was where Self's greatest genius took the biggest holiday.

It should not take Self 30 minutes to figure out what was obvious going in.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

The way to guard MU was to guard the trey stripe to to +2 feet, keep someone fresh on English all over the floor, let them have trey looks past +2 feet, and funnel the drivers to the bigs, never, never try to stop the driver, for that's a sure foul. MU had no one on the perimeter that could shoot inside ten feet without being blocked or altered. So all the fouling KU's perimeter players did the first 30 minutes was stupid and hampered them later on. It turned the game into a free throw shooting contest, which is exactly what MU tries to do every game. Self knew this. KU players knew this. Yet the KU players defended again and again by stretching out to 28-30 feet, and the contended each and every drive, rather than funneling them to the bigs. With all due respect, this was the stupidest display of perimeter defensive strategy with a gifted 7-0 shot blocker and an All American 6-10 power forward in backstop that I have ever witnessed in 40 years of watching the game. And it happened on Bill Self's watch, who just happens to be the greatest defensive coach I've seen, or at least the equal of Wooden, Ralph Miller, Tarkanian, Consonants, and Knight.

Defensive genius took an extended 30 minute holiday.

The moment Self finally appeared to instruct the players in the correct way to guard MU, KU promptly began its run to an 8 point lead.

And it took way less energy to play that kind of defense than the kind of defense KU had been playing futilely for the previous 30 minutes, again, apparently under the direction of Coach Self.

Self will be deceiving himself, if he thinks KU lost because two players got confused and choked down the stretch.

KU could have been leading by 16 by the 10 minute mark of the second half and more by the time it built its biggest lead of 8 late in the second half.

KU lost, because it did not seize and exploit its manifold MUA advantages on offense the first 30 minutes, and because it relied on a foolish perimeter defensive strategy the same first 30 minutes.

It is one thing to sand bag, when you are playing a lesser opponent at a game you are good at sand bagging at, as was the case against OU. Shortening the game with sand bagging had a purpose against OU: keeping KU as fresh as possible for MU.

But KU wasn't technically sand bagging against MU.

KU was playing the wrong offense and the wrong defense for the first 30 minutes, regardless of whether or not Self was trying to play it close to the vest to protect his slim numbers for the first 30 minutes.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

When it started playing the right defense, with ten minutes to go, and at least a small part of the right offense near the same moment, KU squirted ahead by 8, but It does not take a rocket scientist to know that playing things the wrong way the first 30 minutes is not the same as sand bagging.

The game would never have been close enough for TRob and TT to endanger the lead by getting confused and choking down the stretch, had genius not taken a holiday.

I will argue to my last breath that Bill Self is a genius at this game.

But his genius took an extended holiday for the first time in a long, long time, and it cost us in Columbia.

It probably won't happen again for a long, long time, either.

So: next.

Let's go get 'em in Waco. This is still an exceptional team. They had a No. 2 ranked team dead to rights with 2:30 left in its own crib, before they got confused and choked. Hell, its no where near as bad as Eisenhower getting caught with his trousers down and weak spot in his line that Jerry barged through to create the Battle of the Bulge.

Self said this was going to get hard, and it just has. It could get harder. But KU is tied for first and it still probably has a better chance of winning the title than anyone other than Baylor. And if we get Baylor in Waco, then we have the inside track.

Heads up, team.

You are still the best in the Big 12.

Its just that things get hard on the Canal sometimes.

Ask your coach.

Rock Chalk!

keithwt 9 years, 4 months ago

I did. I'm not sure I agree with all of Jaybates points, but he sure makes you think. I especially agreed with his point about not fouling the guards when they drove to the basket. They had nowhere to go with Jeff and Thomas waiting for the blocked shots.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

manginoid, I'm sorry, but I can't give a PHOF for that. Its a little too thin on the argument. :-)

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

How exactly is he using racism??? That's quite a charge against someone.....but you seem to throw it out there easily enough. So why dont you explain? Doubt you can.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Loser.....nobody said anything about have no idea what he is referring to. Bet anything you're a liberal....playing the race card. Get off this board, loser.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

Let me explain this again, Manginoid...

Humanoid is like a human. Manginoid is like a manginorh00lz.

jaybate would never wish to insult persons, or aliases, afflicted with mongoloidism by associating Manginoid with them;that would seem to associate them unfairly with apparent smear-opping.

If jaybate were to stoop to liken Manginoid to anything other than Manginoid's own alias, manginorh00lz, why then jaybate would liken Manginoid to an adenoid, which would mean Manginoid were like an unnecessary, often inflamed growth of tissue in the back of a throat. :-)

But jaybate would never seriously liken Manginoid to an adenoid, because that would be smear-opping and jaybate is opposed to smear-opping.

Dan Harris 9 years, 4 months ago

Jaybate-agree almost 100% Why we wouldn't try and pound them inside in the very beginning is just mind boggling! I can only recall going inside to TR 3 times in the first half and I can't think of a single time with Withey, WTF!?? At the start of the second half we went into T-Rob on the first 2 possessions and that turned the momentum our way until that fateful last 3 minutes.The only disagreement I have is that guarding the trey stripe +2 feet needed to be +5 feet because Denmon was bombing from 30! I still can't believe he went 6 for 9 from trey-land when the dude was 5 for 31 in his previous 5 games,oh well on to the land of the baptists.

Wayne Seymour 9 years, 4 months ago

I am 80 years old and have followed basketball, played it, coach it, and officiated it. KU was not beaten, they lost it by some poor plays, Robinson should have thru the ball back out instead of taking the second shot, they could have run off another 30 seconds, then was not sure what Taylor was doing dribbling the ball toward the sideline and lost his balance. I am not a Missouri fan, and since there is a lot of talk about the officials, look at the number of times they called steps on Missouri in the first half, I believe it was five or six, there was only one that was right.........I think the officials were wrong every time they blew the whistle

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

100% Agree with you.......ref calls/non calls even out in the end.

142466 9 years, 4 months ago

Agreed. Do NCAA basketball refs officiate as their primary occupation? I assume not. I've long thought that at NCAA BB games played in confined settings before huge raucus crowds, the refs can't avoid being, at least subconsciously, swayed towards 1 of the 2 teams. And not necessarily swayed towards the home team. Different personality types often react differently to attemped intimidation.

PurePierce 9 years, 4 months ago

We were both the beneficiaries and victims of Thomas's great second half. He had so much momentum going that he could not apply the breaks. Obviously the correct plays near the end would have been to eat the clock and still get a decent shot. I can't assess blame to Thomas, though, without his magnificent effort we wouldn't have been in the game at the end, much less leading.

The only real positive we can take out of this game is that we had MU beat, in their house. This should engender even more confidence in our boys knowing that MU couldn't beat us, we had to give it to them. Doesn't sound like a positive you say? Well look at it this way, we can fix our endgame management, they can't fix the fact that we are the better team.

Rockchalk Jayhawks Now go out and win the conference!!!

Lance Hobson 9 years, 4 months ago

Pure sorrow. For what was and was and what should have been.

142466 9 years, 4 months ago

KU & Mizzou are approximately equal BB foes this year. Interesting match-up because it's KU's inside strength vs. Mizzou's outside shooting. So far this season both teams have performed better than expected.

KU should win the match-up in Lawrence, but it will be closer than most are saying. The rubber match will occur in the post-season league tournament, a game and a tournament that shouldn't even be played.

What a shame that we will not get to see TRob develop into one of top 5 big men in KU history. The NBA will rob us of that pleasure.

I am more confident about our chances against Baylor following last night's game than I was before. I still give Baylor a slight edge--home court.

Before the start of league play, I thought that the league champ would go 14-4, or the co-champs would go 13-5. What I've seen so far makes confirms my opinion. So prepare for a few more losses in the round robin. This season's league format is delivering the most interesting BB spectacle since creation of the B12.

Our league will return to 12 members soon. The B12 should be the trend setter: play 22 league games, a complete round robin, in a 12 team league. Accomplish that by eliminating the post-season league tournament and replace the final 2 pre-season games with league tilts. Eliminate the Washburn et al games, too. Replace those games with mid-major foes. KU and the other top-finishers in the league will thereby be better prepared NCAA play.

142466 9 years, 4 months ago

I forgot one thing. Award the top 8 seeds in the NCAA tournament to the 6 regular season BCS champs + the 2 best other teams from the entire 64 team field. Thereby restore the significance of regular season play.

Bion Ostrander 9 years, 4 months ago

I don't agree w Jaybate that Baylor has the most favorable sch. for the remainder of games. I believe MU has the most favorable schedule, KU 2nd, & Bay. the toughest of the 3.

Mizzou’s remaining schedule of difficult games, they have Baylor, KSU and ISU all at home, & play KU on the road. They will lose at KU, but could win all others. That only gives KU the luxury of one loss to Bay. or KSU.

Baylor's remaining schedule of difficult games, they have KU, ISU and KSU at home, & also have to play at MU, ISU & Texas. Bay. has a more difficult schedule than KU and Mizzou, I say they lose 2 more.

I agree Self is a genius & I would not trade him for any coach, but no one is invincible & teams are finding a chink in KU's armour this year. I would argue that KU is very easy to game plan against, due to lack of depth & cos KU refuses to change the way they have played, i.e., no zone, etc.

Self & KU are usually good enough to play their style & challenge anyone to beat them at their game, & in most years with good depth & players that translates to winning games.

This is the year Self probably needs to change it up, play some zone, & give some teams some different looks. I know Self is old school with man to man, but I think KU actually used more zone last year.

KU collapsing late in recent games against better teams Iowa State and MU is not a good sign for upcoming games against Bay. & KSU, fatigue is setting in without bench help. I don't know how that is cured unless: 1) someone comes off the bench to give KU consistent scoring or 2) KU plays some zone to rest & control foul trouble for TRob, Withey & Taylor, so they can play full speed at the end of games.

KU did not do a good job of developing its depth earlier in the year when they were playing bad teams.

I still think KU will pound MU by 10 points or more at KU.

I'm not going to rag on the refs like many do, OK two remarks, 1) let the players decide the end of games; & 2) why did the Big 12 feel obligated to send MU out of the conference with this Huge Going Away Gift...

Texas & OU commonly get homer calls in football games because the Big 12 knows who butters their bread, but why can't KU get those same calls when they butter the bread for basketball in the conf. OK, that is somewhat conspiracy theory and tongue in cheek, but I still think that Big 12 refs have some marching orders from the league going into big games & I don't why the league thinks it best to let refs decide the game at the end.

Rock Chalk...lets finish this strong and kick some rears....

addlime 9 years, 4 months ago

"It didn’t come down to one call. We had the ball up six with under three"

Uh, yeah, it actually came down to 2 or 3 bad calls in the span of 2 minutes. Way to go refs!

Uwe_Blab 9 years, 4 months ago

The most hostile road game for the Hawks this season and they are in a position to win by double digits with 2 minutes to go. They execute down the stretch, go with their strengths, run some clock and don't get sped up, KU wins this one going away. The takeaway is this team's in good shape. Much like the Davidson game, they got this one out of the way with enough season left to correct things. My guess is the Hawks will be in the same situation again and they'll execute down the stretch and come away with the 'W'. Self is too good of a coach not to utilize this opportunity to better prepare the team for future games.

REHawk 9 years, 4 months ago

"...MU couldn't beat us, we had to give it to them." That line pretty much captures the way I feel about this contest. At the height of human sports irony, the two Jayhawk players who had brought us to a position for certain victory collapsed in judgment in the stretch run. Time to focus on the Bears and move on to Wednesday night's very important comeback. Now this group of Jayhawks knows more about the irrefutable significance of clock well as its capacity to win long as all players keep their heads in the game until the final buzzer. Yogi must be chuckling at the resonating echo of his merry sports decree; It ain't over 'til it's over!

Mike Mainzer 9 years, 4 months ago

To blame the refs is a copout. The charges to T-Rob and TT were the fourth or fifth called on KU during the game - the players have to adapt to how the whistle is blown. Despite TT as a Senior and TRob as a junior both of them lost their cool at the end and did not play smart basketball. The charges were a result of trying to do too much because of mistakes on previous possessions.

I don't think they were charges - most were good flops that would make Tyler Hansborough proud. I think charges in the lane are the weakest call in basketball. It's pathetic to see 6'9", 275lb center like Moore take a charge late in the game because he can't match up, move his feet, elevate or play defense - in other words he can't go head to head against another man. To watch him hoop and hollar in the student section after the game turned my stomach.

EastofKansasline 9 years, 4 months ago

Help is on the way, courtesy of MU fans across the midwest. An emergency fund raiser is being organized to gather funds and support to purchase a plane load of Paxil for KU fans to relieve them of their depression, delusion, and anxiety. Wait, this just in,,,,due to the lack interest and the fact that everyone spent their money on cake last nite, and only an old borrowed crop duster was available to airlift the Paxil into Kansas, the event was canceled. Sorry I guess you guys will just have to wallow in your Mizery for a few more weeks.

Mike Mainzer 9 years, 4 months ago

Wow - enjoy the victory. Yesterday's win will be the highlight of your season, other than when you hang another "We made it to the NCAA tournament" banner in your arena. Yes, you'll go to the dance but not with an automatic bid from the Big 12 but an at large bid even though Pinkel arranged your patsy, rpi dificient non-con schedule.

Yosemite 9 years, 4 months ago

The football coach arranged the basketball schedule?

rwhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

A few things:

  1. I couldn't believe that on the last two possessions that we didn't try to get TRob the ball. TT is great on the drive, but the reason we were ahead was because TRob took over in the second half. He was playing like a man on a mission and is the front-runner for NPOY and they didn't look to him at the end.

  2. I also couldn't believe Withey wasn't in at the end, especially the final 9 seconds. Granted it didn't end up meaning much with the charge, but I thought he'd be out there for a potential rebound and put back.

  3. That sucked!

ejlumus 9 years, 4 months ago

Does anybody have a picture of Alden shaking hands with the refs? Not implying anything, just thought it would be appropriate for discussion.

ejlumus 9 years, 4 months ago

Please.......... no more discussion on KU to play mizzery. Thankful that will be the last time in columbia, mizzery. I have watched 50 years plus of this bull sh$t!!!!!!!!!!! Please no more!!!

Dan Harris 9 years, 4 months ago

Five plays that decided the game...

  1. T-Rob being called for a foul with his feet set and arms straight up(would it have been a charge if he flopped like MU did all night?) (-3pts.)
  2. TT driving blindly into a double team and turning the ball over. We could have run off 25/30 seconds of clock.
  3. T Rob taking two quick shots instead of kicking the ball back out to run more time,25/30 seconds.
  4. T Rob being called for a charge(hit the guy from the side,not a charge) -4 pt. swing.
  5. TT called for a charge(worst call of the night) instead of an and 1 they get 2 free throws,-5pt. swing That's a 12 point swing and at least a minute of clock.

goshenjhawk 9 years, 4 months ago

I would like to see another replay of the play you refer to with #1. If I am not mistaken, Trob's feet were inside the under the basket circle so the refs could not have called a charge. I agree it seemed he was in position and set, so possibly could have been a no call, but I don't think they could call a charge there.

KU_Alumn_2000 9 years, 4 months ago

EJlumus - I f'n hate Missouri as much or worse than you. That piece of $h&t institution can get the hell of this conference for all I care.

I heard that they brought SEC officials in to officiate the game. The charge calls are a bunch of freaking horse crap...and was completely a game changer.

If this is true that SEC officials were there...if I was Coach Self or any of the KU administration...I would never compete against Missouri atheletics again in any sport.

If they are gonna pull this horsecrap...then they shouldn't get to play us.

Absolutely disgusts me

ejlumus 9 years, 4 months ago

When I watch missery, I transform! I need to be locked in a padded cell with protection for the tv when the calls happen! I do not enjoy the missery games, even when we we win 2 out of every 3 played.

Great grand parents moved from Ohio to Kansas, unfortunately Gpa was born in missery but they got the hell out of there the next day. Thank god they got out before anyone caught a mizzery disease.

I absolutely hate'em ... slack jawed red necks .... too many bad experiences watching games in person ...(fight ... sometime in the 80s ... when Owens was coach ..... was in our bleacher seats) and it was a happy day when they decided to go to sec.

Missery is not a rivalry, it is a hatred. Kstate is a rivalry!

UmbertoConforti 9 years, 4 months ago

Is this true about the officials or just some BS you are making up? They sure as Hell sucked. BTW, ejlumus, I really enjoyed your eloquence. Well said, my man.

ejlumus 9 years, 4 months ago

Just heard the rumor ... picture would verify .... otherwise internet BS

Brian Skelly 9 years, 4 months ago

Our last three losses in Columbia (06, 09, 12 I think), all three have had almost the same exact formula.

1) After asserting ourselves early, we sorta coasted into what turned into pretty much a back and forth game. Nothing out of the ordinary from most college hoops games.

2) All 3 had points in the game with less than 5-6 minutes left where we asserted ourselves to the point it appeared that we had the game at hand -- which is key really, since it seems like we let up all 3 of these games and all had this same formula.

3) One dude on Mizzou gets smoking hot (Denmon most recently, Thomas Gardner back in 06). Nothing we can really do about this, and give credit where credit is due. That said, having Conner Tehan trying to 'cover' Denmon strikes me as a poor match up choice on Self's part. Sorry, its true. Tehan was like guy # 9 or 10 last year. Covering the other teams best scorer with the game on the line with him isnt a recipe for success. It just isnt. It sorta floors me there isnt more talk about this.

4) KU does a handful of bonehead things (poor shot selection, bad turnovers, etc) at the worst time. Blaming KU is worthy as is credit to the Mizzery fans... I was at the previous two losses there, and im sure last night was just as raucous. Yes, Robinsons 'charge' seemed like and one for him -- although Taylor clearly charged. The discrepancy of fouls is frustrating, but not really surprising. We had to be prepared for that.

Remember though... for all the pomp and circumstance of last nights game, all Mizzou did was hold serve. We now HAVE to be Baylor weds night... and likely win out. Blowing the game at ISU forces that issue. And we still have to go to Manhattan. Our margin of error is gone.

Are we capable of winning out? Yea. Could we lose 3 more games? Yea. We'll see what happens. Us gacking up another should be W on the road though cant happen if we wanna win the Big 12 though.

JD Roth 9 years, 4 months ago

KU choked after Tyshawn's baseline dunk. Now put the loss to bed, learn from it, and move on. Go to Baylor and win, plus you don't know which OU team will show up tomorrow at Loyd Noble Arena, maybe Mizzou gets an inspired Sooner team.

Benjamin Piehler 9 years, 4 months ago

A huge bummer, but if we don't drop any more road games we've still got the conference in the bag... Zou will roll over in Allen like they always do. Can't believe we gave away that game though...

I guess the worst KU team in a decade is the equivalent of the best Mizzou team in 20 years.

Steve Brown 9 years, 4 months ago


I see this as their best team since Stippo & Sunvold. I do hope they keep their tradition of getting hot once every 15-20 years.

Go Kentucky don't let Tigers win in SEC take our mantle and battle cry.

Can't believe I'm now rooting for Coach Cal twice next season.

UmbertoConforti 9 years, 4 months ago

C'mon Man. Cal's a rogue coach, but he coached at KU. Go UK.....

Carolyn Hunzicker 9 years, 4 months ago

I like Tehan, but the kid just can't play defense at all...Period KU guards / forwards 7 rebounds 3 freethrows MO guards/forwards 17 rebounds 18 freethrows ????? And where was Withey down the stretch ?????????

Taylor....He's good but will win some games for you and will lose some games for you

Dan Harris 9 years, 4 months ago

I said before the game last night that avoiding charges would be a key to the game because Mizzu was good at drawing them. I didn't realize that falling backwards and flopping around like a carp EVERYTIME you were breathed on constituted a charge. There should be a flopping rule in BB just like there is a diving rule in hockey,PATHETIC!!

Dan Harris 9 years, 4 months ago

Alright ,I'm done bitching.... I think.

FSJHAWK 9 years, 4 months ago

Coach Bill Self is a top-of-the-line coach. Every coach that has ever coached has made mistakes at some point in his coaching in a big game. But I WOULD NOT BE CRITICAL of Coach Self as jaybate seems to be--maybe jaybate would have all the answers if he was on the HOT SEAT making game decisions in place of Coach Self. I would not trade Coach Self for any other active coach--he is one of my top 3 KU Coaches--my other 2 : Larry Brown and of course the Coach the fieldhouse is named after Coach Phog Allen. Really liked Hail_To_Thee's statement---Only in Mizzou arena do Zebras and Tigers run together................. Guarding the 3 requires good execution and staying with your man--somewhere in the 2nd half Mo. did a simple ball screen and I think we were in a man D our players did not check off or get thru the screen or around it and pick up their man: result Mo. 3-pointer. This is basic man-D. players learn in j-high or s-high or on the p-grounds. There was a reference to the northern iowa game--did you see who tried to intercept the pass at crunch time of that game that led to a 3-point made shot and decided the game--yes it was T. Taylor. I do agree that its better to have our best 5 on the court at crunch time of a close game and I really believe Big Jeff has an positive impact on the outcome reguardless of him making points

Martin Rosenblum 9 years, 4 months ago

Hey, where is MissouBest?

He was so vocal on here yesterday before the game and I am shocked that we're not being bombarded with tripe from him. Maybe he knows what will rain down in Lawrence.

Frank Haith needs to wallow in this victory and get mentally prepared to come to AFH. Hell hath no fury like a KU team hot off a loss to Mizz in Columbia!

Benjamin Piehler 9 years, 4 months ago

Prlly enduring the worst meth withdrawal of his life after celebrating last night.

"I'm sweating and freezing at the same time!"

MizzouBest 9 years, 4 months ago

I'm here! Thanks for asking. I prefer to trash-talk before a game...before the outcome. After the game is unfair in my opinion. Plus rubbing it in is even more obnoxious than what I already am guilty of. It was a great game between two great teams.....all you could ask for. I will probably be back in a few weeks.....but I think KU wins in Lawrence.

Hopefully.....KU and MU will play in the Big12 final......or maybe even the national title? Wouldn't that be something?

Who knows? I will miss this rivalry so much. I have no desire to be in SEC....but what can I do?

Have a good evening.

Dan Harris 9 years, 4 months ago

You went from totally obnoxious to halfway classy(impossible from a true Mizzu fan!) See in a couple weeks.

MizzouBest 9 years, 4 months ago

I find KU fans to also be capable of being halfway classy as well! February 25th.....mark the date!!

Gil Ek 9 years, 4 months ago

Beat Baylor and this loss will be a memory. Loose to Baylor and we go into the tourney a 3-4 seed with a chip on our shoulder. Go JayHawks!!!

Steve Gantz 9 years, 4 months ago

Just read on Yahoo that Denmon and a few others stopped their fans from storming the court.

JayHok 9 years, 4 months ago

XM radio talked quite a bit about this. The irony that a favored team had fans on the court. The MU players pushed and motioned the others back.

PurePierce 9 years, 4 months ago

I believe I will take my mulligan on this hole.

BillSelf4Prez 9 years, 4 months ago

Hard to say that the refs cost us the game. But the game is over if the Robinson call goes the other way. White and black team won it for Misery. And their meth head fans almost stormed the court haa.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Just noticed in the boxscore that Withey had 0 points,4 rebounds. We need more out of him. I know he had a little foul trouble....but still. A factor in the loss. He's played great so far this year......but couldn't help much last night.

theend 9 years, 4 months ago

Are there any decent football games on today?

UmbertoConforti 9 years, 4 months ago

Jaybate. I hope you still read these posts at the end. Why in the Hell to you use things like MUA and M2M when many of us don't know what they mean?

Why don't you number your posts. I understand why you break them down, but I can't always read them through at one sitting. When I come back I get lost trying to find where I was.

You do a great job, but man you can frustrate a person.

jaybate 9 years, 4 months ago

Sorry about that. Used to number them. Will go back to it.

MUA= match up advantage

m2m= man to man defense

BillSelf4Prez 9 years, 4 months ago

Just trash talked a bunch of Misery fans on Xbox live. :)

Kelly Knott 9 years, 4 months ago

Regarding last night’s game, we had it... then the refs put a bow on it and we gave it away. The past few weeks it’s been reported that for KU to have a chance at the Big 12 Championship and a deep run into the post season, we will need strong play from Jeff Withey in the paint. Where was Jeff last night?! One field goal attempt, zero points, 4 total rebounds, (that’s being generous) zero free throws. He had one block at the start of the game, other than that, his lack of contribution was negligent. It’s not enough to set screens to create lanes for T-Rob and TT! To be 7-foot and not play above the rim consistently or effectively is a liability. In order to receive a lob pass and dunk the ball one must anticipate the play and have great eye hand coordination along with timing,,, Jeff is a reactive player at best, this is why his offensive stats are dismal for a big. Sure he can log some blocks because he’s 7-foot and he’s RE-acting to a shot already taken. Yes, he’s come a long way, but he’s inconsistent and has a long way to go. Last night we needed the effort Jeff gave in the Oklahoma game. He was a stud that night!!

VaJay 9 years, 4 months ago

Agreed, but we also need EJ to drive & either shoot the pull-up J or take it to the hoop. He was 1 for 7 outside the arc, 4 for 5 inside. That's the way its been all season.

Ron Franklin 9 years, 4 months ago

I agree with most of your thoughts on Jeff. I thought for sure Bill would game plan to play through him more and get him to the line. He had to know it was going to be a close game that could possibly come down to points accumulated at the charity stripe. It blows my mind that the team doesn't play more through Jeff in tight games--he shoots 85% from the stripe.

vickicm 9 years, 4 months ago

Poor officiating at the game last night! KU would have won that game if it had not been for Missouri to intentionally foul at the end of the game! Let Missouri go to the SEC, I will be willing to help them pack!!

Bion Ostrander 9 years, 4 months ago

Some conspiracy theory on here that MU hired SEC refs for the game...WRONG.

First, MU doesn't hire the refs, I believe the league office does that. Second, there are no conference exclusive refs, most refs work a number of conferences within a close geographic region, and most of their games may be in 1 to 3 conferences.

Last nights crew was Sirmons, Daily and Dixon, the website below ranks and has stats on the top 100 refs (Dixon was not listed in the database).

Sirmons mostly does Big 12 and SEC games, so he does some SEC games, but the Big 12 hired him. Not sure who, if anyone, made most of the controversial calls last night...that might be good to know. Daily does mostly Big 12 and Mo. Valley games. And Dixon, don't know.

These refs don't seem to have any substantial unusual statistics, except Sirmons and Daily only rank as 2.5 stars (out of 5) at I'm not sure how that ranking is achieved. They are definitely not among the highest ranked refs, I guess you could argue the Big 12 should have got better refs for this big game, but I'm sure availability, scheduling, and other factors come in to play.

<p> does tell you which refs have a tendency to call more fouls, less fouls, highest margin of victory, most upsets, how many games they have reffed, etc.

Just some input, for what its worth...Go Hawks...

Bion Ostrander 9 years, 4 months ago

Just a follow up on my last post. The referee website I referenced does have pics of the refs, so if you have Tivo or something similar you could stop the action and maybe figure out which ref made the various calls. Too much work for me, although I've got Tivo.

hotrodm 9 years, 4 months ago


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