Advertisement

Saturday, October 22, 2011

Keegan

Sheahon Zenger’s challenge: Find money to make coaching change

Kansas head coach Turner Gill is escorted by security from the field following the Jayhawks' 59-21 loss to rival Kansas State on Saturday, Oct. 22, 2011 at Kivisto Field.

Kansas head coach Turner Gill is escorted by security from the field following the Jayhawks' 59-21 loss to rival Kansas State on Saturday, Oct. 22, 2011 at Kivisto Field.

Advertisement

Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Turner Gill

Kansas coach Turner Gill talks to reporters following the Jayhawks' 59-21 loss to Kansas State on Oct. 22, 2011.

Download podcast

Sheahon Zenger, this is your mission: Find a way to get the Kansas University athletic department out of the financial pressure your predecessor, Lew Perkins, put it in, in part because he believed in giving coaches everything they needed to succeed with little regard for how much it cost.

Perkins brought KU’s fundraising into the 21st century, upgraded facilities and signed many coaches to one-sided contracts that paid them far too much money.

Turner Gill was earning $450,000 per year at University at Buffalo, where he raised a national embarrassment of a football program to respectability. Perkins didn’t raise Gill’s salary to $1 million. He gave him $2 million per year and guaranteed all five years.

Ask yourself this question: Have you ever known anybody in any industry who said no to an offer that more than doubles his or her salary? Didn’t think so. Gill, no doubt, would have taken $1 million a year.

Perkins put too much emphasis on image, believing that if he paid a coach $2 million, the coach would be perceived as a $2 million coach, which would help in raising money, landing recruits and generating a national buzz.

In the wake of the latest embarrassment for a football program that had been raised to respectability by Gill’s predecessor, Saturday’s 59-21 loss to undefeated Kansas State left many wondering: So how does Zenger get out of this pickle?

Irony of all ironies, hated rival Missouri could help out the Kansas football program in its moment of desperate need.

Should Missouri, as expected, bolt the Big 12 along with Texas A&M;, the two SEC-bound schools will pay exit fees that will be split among the eight remaining conference members. A combined fee of $32 million is as good a guess as any. That’s $4 million per member. Gill has $6 million left on his contract after this season.

A pool of donors will be counted on to come up with the rest. If they do, that’s a sign they won’t make Zenger pay for Perkins’ excesses.

But when? Nothing will happen during the season because mid-season moves, especially with classy coaches, lack class.

Zenger made it clear in a postgame statement that this mess will be fixed, and the only logical way to interpret that is that if Gill doesn’t fix it himself in the remaining five weeks of the season, the AD will by replacing the football coach.

The scripts in four of the past five weeks (Georgia Tech, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Kansas State) varied little: Decent first half. The door viciously slammed on KU’s fingers in the third quarter. Oklahoma State varied, dominating the Jayhawks immediately and mercifully slamming on the brakes before halftime.

The third-quarter score the past five weeks: Opponents 80, Kansas 7. That sort of a statistic happens in big-time sports about as often as a school helps its most hated rival to dig itself out of a crater.

With each third-quarter disappearing act, more and more embarrassed boosters have vowed to stop donating to the athletic department if either a drastic change in performance or in the coach himself doesn’t take place.

Behind the scenes, a prominent, highly respected alum has tried to calculate the cost of not replacing the coach (withheld donations, projected decline in ticket sales, etc.) to compare it to the cost of replacing him. Clearly, the wheels are in motion for a change.

If Gill’s team doesn’t right itself and a change is made, nobody expects a complete overhaul in the coaching staff, as happened when Mark Mangino was bounced for being an ornery football coach. (Remember when ornery football coach was considered a redundancy? I do.)

Running backs coach Reggie Mitchell is among the nation’s best recruiters. Receivers coach David Beaty demands attention to detail from his players and recruits the heck out of the Dallas Metroplex. Offensive coordinator Chuck Long has a personality and knowledge well-suited for developing young quarterbacks. Just about everywhere he goes, offensive line coach J.B. Grimes upgrades the program’s running game.

Bill Snyder, in the midst of his second resurrection act, has his Wildcats welcoming unbeaten Oklahoma into Manhattan. Clearly, Snyder sees football as few ever have. He even knows how to look into the future. His complimentary words had a ring of sincerity to them, so it should come as no surprise that he was not talking about KU’s defense or special teams.

“The University of Kansas is a very fine offensive football team,” Snyder said. “They have good balance in their offense and they can throw it and run it. They have good offensive linemen. I like those backs and I think that quarterback (Jordan Webb) is a poised young guy. They are going to get better and better because they have some talent on that side, but right now they are a young football team.”

Inexperience isn’t an excuse for a quick barrage of defensive and special teams blunders: allowing a 48-yard pass play on the final play from scrimmage of the first half, a 97-yard kick return for a touchdown on the first play of the second half, and committing three penalties before the first snap of the second half.

It’s difficult to fathom a football team that can cram that much undisciplined slop into 32 seconds of game clock can right itself in five weeks.

Comments

bootlegger 8 years, 7 months ago

Goodbye Gill!!! Thanks for nothing................

straightforward 8 years, 7 months ago

I think you meant to say thank you for bringing in the "very fine offensive team" Snyder is referring to. Gill has done what can reasonably be expected. Building a program doesn't happen overnight.

jbc03c 8 years, 7 months ago

The problem is they are playing as though they learn nothing from week to week. It's called progress, and they haven't made any. I don't understand how we got to this point really. Mangino's last season we went into a slide, but even then we weren't the laughingstock of college football. My high school team could muster more "defense" than KU. And does anyone remember losing to North Dakota State last year? C'mon. At some point we just need to understand the motivation for Gill's "rebuilding" rhetoric --- it's a way to deflect blame.

fu7il3 8 years, 7 months ago

It also takes time to reduce a defense to the worst defense in division 1 history.

johnnyhrdwd 8 years, 7 months ago

Maybe we can borrow the money from China or the University of Texas.

JakeBarnes 8 years, 7 months ago

Great. And to think this bit of wisdom was rendered at 3:43 a.m.

A +10 if I ever saw one.

baldwinjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Hey does your pirate avatar suggest your a leach fan? I am

baldwinjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Let's start the bidding. Who's our first Target to replace him?
1. Brent Venables _ note: don't even think he would take our call 2. Rick Leach. Note: If he promises to play some defense 3.Houston Nutt .. big time name but is getting his butt kick in sec west 4. Budd Foster. Best defensive coach in country at Va Tech 3. Chris Steele. Defensive coach at clemson. see where i"m going kids?

boomrsoonr26 8 years, 7 months ago

Who is Rick Leach? He sounds like a winner!

David Atchley 8 years, 7 months ago

"Mike" Leach would be an excellent choice. Another great choice is "Chad Morris" the OC at Clemson. Both of these coaches are well regarded amongst the high school football coaches throughout Texas. In short time, he's put Clemson in the BCS top 7. Leach would be awesome, and OU and UT always find it tough sledding whenever they play the "Pirate."

hawk316 8 years, 7 months ago

"Running backs coach Reggie Mitchell is among the nation’s best recruiters. Receivers coach David Beaty demands attention to detail from his players and recruits the heck out of the Dallas Metroplex. Offensive coordinator Chuck Long has a personality and knowledge well-suited for developing young quarterbacks. Just about everywhere he goes, offensive line coach J.B. Grimes upgrades the program’s running game."

Wow, Tom. You've just made a pretty strong case that Turner Gill knows how to surround himself with quality coaches. Makes me think that, if given time, this great coaching staff may just be able to turn this program around.

COJayhawker 8 years, 7 months ago

Correction. Tom made a strong case that he knows how to surround himself with good Offensive coaches. He'll be fired due to the completely inept defensive side of the football. Gill has NOT done a good job of surrounding himself with quality defensive coaching.

Michael Bratisax 8 years, 7 months ago

A bettor mission: Find the money and the talent to replace Sheahon Zenger.

kesmithstl1 8 years, 7 months ago

I'm thinking of selling my house, car, mini-van, Ab-Lounger, etc..., in an effort to raise money for the buyout!!!! Sure, I'll be homeless, and I'll have to quit my job, but at least I won't be embarrassed on Saturday!!

manginodrh00lz 8 years, 7 months ago

OK - I'll call you tomorrow. I always read these boards looking for overweight, pharmaceutical sales reps in Phoenix who have no idea about KU but have money for my little experiments.

ahpersecoachingexperience 8 years, 7 months ago

Self employed pharmacist you jackwagon! Whatever you want,I got. No prescription needed.

Cmill1221 8 years, 7 months ago

You have a lot of comments on Other Peoples stuff, But do you have any original Ideas of your own?

hawk316 8 years, 7 months ago

Zenger's challenge: to withstand the intense pressure from a screaming fan base to remove a coach before he has a fair chance to recruit and develop his own players.

rockchalkchampionship 8 years, 7 months ago

Bingo!

I hated the Gill hire when it happened and nothing has changed in my mind. Getting him out of here ASAP after Missouri beats us in a month to finish our 2-10 season is priority number one for Zenger. It will bring much more optimism next year than keeping him around for year 3.

When I told someone who does not care about football that our defense ranked 120th out of 120 teams, they said "If there were 300 teams, they would be 300th."

Touche.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

Ouch! Especially since I can't argue his point...

Jack Wilson 8 years, 7 months ago

Instead, raise more money to give to coach Self.

manginodrh00lz 8 years, 7 months ago

idiot comment. You have failed this forum and yourself.

milehighhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

manginodrh00lz - you've made that exact comment several times (in the last 24 hours). It's just not as clever as you think it is, and becomes less so each time you redeploy it. Freshen up.

JHawk74 8 years, 7 months ago

Is that your favorite saying 'failed this forum and yourself or your parents, etc'? It is kind of getting old. You really should come up with something better.

Michael Bratisax 8 years, 7 months ago

lol..you are so wrong. With HEM's knowledge of KU sports and traditions, he is a respected voice on these forums.

ahpersecoachingexperience 8 years, 7 months ago

The only person I hate more than gill is that tall white guy in the "fresh beat band"

Gawd that kid is annoying!

milwaukeeJAYHAWK 8 years, 7 months ago

As the father of a toddler....i concur!

Marina (the old one) and Kiki are kinda hot though.....

manginodrh00lz 8 years, 7 months ago

Wrong board idiots. Go to the Disney channel.

milwaukeeJAYHAWK 8 years, 7 months ago

Wrong logo for this board, idiot. Go to C-USA.

Kenny Terry 8 years, 7 months ago

There is a first time for everything. Im agreeing with Keegen on this opinion article. This coach is in way over his head and change needs to be made.

Andy Smith 8 years, 7 months ago

Agreed. This is a first for me to agree with Keegan.

Kevin Randell 8 years, 7 months ago

I am all for giving a coach a chance, BUT there is no excuse. In your second year you may not improve to much on wins, but you usually show some improvement and are competitive in games. This is not happening. So, it is time to cut bait and move on. All of the excuses are used up. Yes, it is going to cost us, but is the cost of losing more season ticket sales and Williams Fund Donors worth it?

Bottom line, I am still going to drive 3 and a half hours every game day, buy my season tickets, and pay my Williams Fund dues. But I don't think it's wrong to get my money's worth is it?

Jeff Johnson 8 years, 7 months ago

Maybe Bill Self should help out by digging into his pockets to see Gill off? BTW, Lew Perkins did more to torpedo KU's football program than Jon Wefald did by overruling Tim Weiser and hiring Ron Prince.

Jim Williamson 8 years, 7 months ago

You think another coach would do that? Really? If so, you know less about sports than I do.

Jeff Coffman 8 years, 7 months ago

Made it 2 mins into the slide and stopped, don't need to know everything bad HCTG did...we know it was bad.

Cmill1221 8 years, 7 months ago

I think "RECORD SETTING" was mentioned in almost every clip of that video. NOT GOOD!!

FlintHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Totally awesome!! I had blocked 2010 from my mind. I kept cringing at those scores. Hard to watch, but I hope it goes viral.

jhawk4life1976 8 years, 7 months ago

Is there a website to where we can contribute?

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

I have yet to find anything but Williams Education Fund info on the KU Athletics website.

Try emailing KU Athletics asking how to contribute for this specific cause (we did yesterday evening).

Email addresses: Zenger: vlane@ku.edu Keating: lkeating@ku.edu And for good measure: Chancellor@ku.edu

manginodrh00lz 8 years, 7 months ago

You want the AD to fire the Chancellor? Do you understand chain of command? You have failed this forum and yourself. Go back to work.

Dan Pawlowski 8 years, 7 months ago

Well , his name is billybob. Enough said.

Steve Williams 8 years, 7 months ago

fire gill, and get who? any coach on earth would have had a rebuilding project after losing what we lost 2 years ago, oh and i guess its Turner Gill's fault that Torbush got freaking CANCER,, cmon,, for a basketball school, a lot of people are hedging too many bets on 2 years of success. KU football will always be a stepping stone, the only destination job is just north of oliver hall

LSHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

As long as idiots keep thinking this way that is exactly the way it will be. KU does NOT have to be a basketball only school and WE should not think that way. Didnt any of you idiots pay attention during the last 3 months??? FOOTBALL is the driving force behind college sports, KU better get on board that bus or we will be playing in the MWC!!!

nuleafjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

The "football driving force" philosophy is a good one, but it will never happen here.

Basketball has given KU a pretty decent name for the past 100+ years, and it's not going to change any time soon.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

Reinforcing LSHawk's argument, that attitude has to change, and will only change if the Chancellor and the AD make it a point and drive that point home again and again and again.

If you check the record books, KU has had some pretty good years in football in the past. it can be done, as long as the leadership makes it a priority and doesn't assume "we've fixed that" as soon as the team gets good again.

If that attitude does not change and the Big 12 should come to an end 6 years down the road, KU will be on the outside looking in, and that will impact our precious hoops program as well. Do not delude yourselves -- without membership in a nationally relevant conference, all KU athletics, even hoops, will go down hill. The best HS players want to play the best College players, and 90% of them will be going to BCS conference schools. You think Self is not recruiting well now, wait until he has to recruit without the benefit of a BCS conference cachet behind him.

So wake up, people! You don't care about football? Fine, but if you care at all about KU overall and hoops in general, you better be willing to help support football some way, because hoops alone won't do it, and shouldn't be expected to do it.

ANd if you want to throw academics in to the mix (I know, I know, that's a radical idea, but let's do it), look at the funding breakout discussed in the following article.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2011/oct... See that for the Lawrence campus, Tuition and Fees is the #2 source of income (and by inference #1 for unrestricted funds), surpassing all sources but research.

Then know that KU has suffered a precipitous drop in enrollment over the last 3 years while KState and Moo are gaining students. The drop in enrollment at KU is severely limiting academic funding, especially for unrestricted funds.

What is the one clear-cut, different factor between our two rivals enrollment situation and KU's?

The status of athletics in general, and the football programs in particular.

I don't care if you don't like football. If you love KU, you at least need to be interested in the BUSINESS of football.

So stop with the "KU has been and always will be a hoops school" crap. It can and needs to be both, or both will suffer.

nuleafjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

You can say what you like, and you usually say it well, but the story is the same.

We have always (occasional exception aside) stunk in football.

We have always (occasional exception aside) been outstanding in basketball.

It will not change. If we wind up in the Missouri Valley, Conference USA, or the Howdy Doody Conference - we will always be relevant in basketball.

I WISH we were good in football.

We're not. We won't be. Get used to it.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

The world has changed. Those who refuse to change will be left behind. So I refuse to "get used to it." If enough alums and fans join in, it can be changed, despite the anchors dragging at the situation by alums and fans who blindly believe that KU basketball will always be relevant no matter what else happens.

As someone who went to KU at a time when KU hoops, to be honest, was NOT relevant, I know it can happen again. I point out that ignoring the cliff is the best way to ensure going over it.

nuleafjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

I apologize sir. I was taught to respect my elders.

Eveidently you went to KU sometime during the period from 1898 to 1907. That would be the only time in history that Kansas did not win National Championships or Conference Championships or attend a Final Four. (If they even had final fours back then)

Even during the terrible time when you attended there, here's what KU has done in basketball. If that's not relevant, you sir have some seriously unequaled high expectations.

All-Time Wins 2nd 2,038 All-Time Win % 3rd .718 National Titles (including Helms Foundation titles) 4th-T 5 NCAA Tournament Titles 6th-T 3 NCAA Title Game Appearances 5th 8 NCAA Final Four Appearances 5th 13 NCAA Elite Eight Appearances 4th 20 NCAA Sweet 16 Appearances 4th 18 NCAA Tournament Bids 4th 40 NCAA Tournament Games Played
4th- T 127 NCAA Tournament Wins 5th 88 NCAA Tournament Win % 5th .693 No. 1 Seed in NCAA Tournament
3rd-T 10 Weeks Ranked as AP No. 1 5th 58 Weeks Ranked in AP Top 5 5th 287 Weeks Ranked in AP Top 10 5th 432 Weeks Ranked in AP Polls 5th 610 Seasons with 35 Wins or More 1st-T 4 Seasons with 30 Wins or More 3rd-T 10 Seasons with 25 Wins or More 3rd 25 Seasons with 20 Wins or More 5th 40 Seasons with a Winning Record 1st 92 Seasons with a Non-Losing Record
1st 95 Consensus First Team All-American Awards[15] 1st 27 Consensus First Team All-Americans[15] 1st 20 Regular Season Conference Championships 1st 54 Above totals are through April 18, 2011.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

It's not that I'm that old, it's that you're that young, don't know your KU hoops history as well as you think you do, and clearly haven't done your research to find out what the reality of the program was before the hiring of Larry Brown. I know all the data you presented, I've researched and quoted it myself in the past, but you did not go far enough. All that totally true and impressive data does nothing to even slightly blemish, let alone disprove, my argument that it wasn't too long ago that KU was not a nationally relevant hoops program.

I suggest that instead of looking at all that great media guide info, you look at the record in more detail so you can see the warts and blemishes. Let's not look way back before my KU time to Dick Harp having losing teams for 3 of his 8 seasons (1957-1964 seasons) as head coach after taking over for Phog. Let's just look at a bit of detailed info for the period from 1976-1983, representing the last 8 years under Ted Owens. Here's a glimpse for you.

Year / W-L / Big8 / NCAAT 1976 / 13-13 / 4th / -------- 1977 / 18-10 / 4th / -------- 1978 / 24- 5 / 1st / 0-1 (a great year and high point) 1979 / 18-11 / 2nd / -------- 1980 / 13-13 / 3rd / -------- 1981 / 24- 8 / 2nd / 2-1 (Owens last gasp) 1982 / 13-14 / 7th / -------- 1983 / 13-16 / 7th / --------

The record clearly shows that KU, despite its storied history and brand, had 4 seasons without a winning record in that period, and was not nationally relevant for 6 of Owens last 8 years. And it had a huge negative impact on the program.

His last 4 years covered my time on campus. Late in the season of those last two years I could walk into AFH after the game started and not have to worry about buying a ticket. There were many games were AFH was barely half full. The 1983 firing of Owens and hiring of Brown by AD Monte Johnson was a huge event, and made many people unhappy with how things were handled.

But KU hoops was rejuvenated by hiring Larry Brown starting with that 1983-84 season. It was then arguably taken to a higher level (despite 0 NCAA titles) by Roy, and kept at that level by Bill. It's because of THEIR success in REBUILDING KU hoops and maintaining that level of excellence that the program we all brag about is so visible and relevant today.

Those of less experience and maturity tend to overlook the Owens doldrums, but that doesn't mean they never happened.

And do not ever kid yourself that they can't happen again. Look at Indiana, look at UK, look at UNC, look at UCLA, look at St. John's, look at DePaul (who?). They all have experienced periods when they were not nationally relevant despite their brand, and some still haven't recovered.

nuleafjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Like I said, your expectations are unrealistic. We're SECOND all - time. Soon we will be FIRST. What part of that don't you understand?

You might have left North Carolina out of your list of "fallen" teams. In case you've been asleep or on some other planet, they've won two National Championships in the last 6 years.

Or do you have to win it all every year to be relevant?

And I ain't that young - I'm 53. I've been following KU before your beloved Wikipedia site was ever thought about.

I don't normally get too amped up about arguing with other posters, but hey, at least this conversation diverts attention from football for a while.

Have a good day sir.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

I've recognized all the real info you have provided as accurate. I have pointed out that such info does not disprove my assertions, and even demonstrated how the emphasis from the KU leadership made it possible for KU to return to relevancy in mens hoops after the fall from grace at the end of the Owens era. Similar emphasis is needed regarding football, and can work. What the leadership emphasizes as important and keeps at the top of the priority list gets done.

You keep trying to argue different points -- incredible overall record for hoops, historical record with FB -- and thus fail to make a dent in my comments. The result is your opinion that my expectations are unrealistic is unsupported by any of the arguments you have made.

You use misdirection in an attempt to refocus the topics I am discussing -- the possibility of KU becoming a football school (again, if and only if the KU leadership makes it a priority as it has with mens hoops), the floundering KU hoops program at the end of the Owens years (a historical fact), the down years that other hoops programs, even UNC, have had in recent years (more historical facts) -- ignoring the information your comments indicate you should know of because it doesn't "fit" for you.

Cherry picking what you want and ignoring the facts which defeat your arguments doesn't work.

My very realistic expectation is that KU can become a football school if the leadership and well-heeled alums make it a priority. If they build it, the fans will come. We saw that with Mangino.

KU mens hoops was going over the cliff at the end of the Owens era. Monte Johnson rescued it by hiring Larry Brown, Bob Frederick amped up the program by taking Dean's word on Roy, and Drue Jennings landed the perfect fit for KU when Roy went home.

The "crushed like a dove" Bohl -- hired after basketball-centric Frederick was asked to step down -- made inroads with KU FB by hiring Mangino, but Perkins set the program back at the worst time possible. It's up to Zenger make it a continuing priority and right the ship. Mens hoops will probably always be first, but the changing world we live in dictates that football must be a priority as well.

Rock Chalk, fellow Jayhawk.

Oddball: "Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"

nuleafjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

LTCUSARet

I was a tiny bit ticked yesterday (i think it was yesterday!), but honestly, I'm literally laughing right now.

Partly because it's 6:00 am and I haven't had enough coffee. But mostly because I've realized this is just like arguing with my wife.

I honestly don't remember what we're arguing about, or why! So, for me, that's my cue to bow out. I'm sure I was right about whatever it was. haha.

Here's my bottom line. I don't hold grudges. I've read your posts and "generally" agree with most of your stuff. I didn't this last time, but that's OK. We both evidently have strong feelings about KU. Don't get me wrong - I love KU football. I want them to succeed. But in my 53 years I have seen EXTREMELY limited success with that, so if they ever are consistently good in football it will be a great unexpected treat for me.

I'm ready to move on. Have a great day! Take care.

Mike Barnhart 8 years, 7 months ago

You just don't get it. This is epic. Pathetic beyond belief. Record setting stink. This is the wrong guy for the job.

Cmill1221 8 years, 7 months ago

You ask us "GET WHO?" ANYBODY!!!!!!! I will take Terry Allen right now. At least someone who cares. OK Torbush got cancer. ITS WEEK 9!! Is TURNER GILL (THE HEAD COACH) still around? Someone needs to figure it out!! I dont Care who we get!!! ANYBODY!! even it they are good and bolt for a better Job in 2 years at least they moved us in the right direction. This may be the worst waste of time and money i have ever seen.

KU_Samsonite 8 years, 7 months ago

are you serious?? you would really take a coach that is currently 0-7 at an FCS school? Terry Allen would not be the answer to our woes.

Gregor Southard 8 years, 7 months ago

Jim Cooper (Ohio State) in the 90's and Tommy Tuberville (Auburn) both wanted to coach at KU, so it's not as impossible as some think to land a proven coach. By the way, guess who won in Norman tonight?

Spencer Goff 8 years, 7 months ago

When I see field goals being missed like OU did tonight I start remembering Lin Elliot. I wake up later in the night in a cold sweat, saying to myself, "Are you serious? He missed AGAIN!?" I then cry myself back to sleep muttering, "We let Nick Lowery go? We let Nick Lowery go?"

Chris Bailey 8 years, 7 months ago

For 2 Million dollars I think we could attract a descent coach! And KSU got a coach to stay for 15 years! We got a pretty good thing in Lawrence. The town is great the school is top notch and the facilities are second to none! KU doesn't have to be a stepping stone it could be a good job to the right man! Remember Osborn didn't hire Gill for a reason!

JHawk74 8 years, 7 months ago

Hey did you ever think that you're the idiot on this board? Not everyone else.

Marc Frey 8 years, 7 months ago

Let see: Gill is 15 games into his KU coaching career and we are all wanting him gone? Go back 2 months where every football writer predicted KU would go 2-10 or at best 3-9. So what is the suprise? Not our record, but how we got here. Our offense is much better than I would have guessed? After last year did anyone think we would have a decent QB? Look, I do not like this at all. But I do feel that Gill needs another year to really establish what he wants. Changing after this year.....another 3 years lost. We are young, Gill has been recruiting so good guys, give him another 15 games. After that we go back to a tough coach, as we have done before.

ahpersecoachingexperience 8 years, 7 months ago

Gills incoming recruiting class isn't even in the top 50

Jeff Coffman 8 years, 7 months ago

And the top recruits he got last year he can't even get suited up in a KU uniform.

Bill Kackley 8 years, 7 months ago

If you knew anything about it, you would know that numbers are a very big part of those ratings and the recruiting class can't be highly rated because there are not enough scholarships to give. How important are highly rated recruiting classes? Snyder never has highly rated classes. In fact usually very poorly rated classes because he recruits so many JUCO's and they don't count in the rankings.

90sHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Finally another sane comment among the lunatics.

Jeff Coffman 8 years, 7 months ago

Yep and he is burning red-shirts right and left with no improvement.

I've heard that there was supposed to be improvement from last year to this year and I must say that HCTG set the bar extremely low last year, and still hasn't imporved many would say he is doing a much worse job this year than last year...I would be one of them.

Jeff Coffman 8 years, 7 months ago

Just to point out he was 3-9 last year and 2-5 this year...that means he is 19 games into his KU Coaching Career. Let's see 1-1 Against FBS Div II Teams 4-3 Against non-Converence 1-11 Against Big XII

And let's all admit it, the one game that we won, CU had considered KU beaten and underestimated the comeback opportunity.

What's amazing is I think the 1-1 is worse than the 1-11 stat, and the 1-11 stat has to be one of the worst in history. I don't expect it to be better than 1-16 by the end of the season.

Hank Cross 8 years, 7 months ago

You keep losing games by a half dollar - you're gone. Cased closed.

Andy Smith 8 years, 7 months ago

Oh sure, just give him another 15 years. He's in over his head. He'll never win NEVER!

optichawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Today was pathetic, but it has been that way since Lew left and Mangino was done, Gill is good for anyone but KU. There was one coach that had his players prepared and then the opposite. If you can't recruit to fill obvious weaknesses then can't scheme, you shouldn't be a D1 coach let alone at KU where there isn't a long tradition but facilities equal of Penn St., FSU, Tx A&M, others... its not right, just not right!!

741hawk 8 years, 7 months ago

I predict that we'red all gonna be disappointed . . . 'cause I believe Gill's fate is in Bernadette's hand. (Why Cunningham turned down the AD job after accepting it.)

Prediction: Zenger will "fix it" by helping Gill hire a new Defensive Coordinator.

SCJayhawker 8 years, 7 months ago

What an embarassment! Our team is not improving it is getting progressively worse week after week. As a season ticket holder it has finially got to this point: Either Coach Gill and his entire staff go - or at least most of his staff goes or I go. To hear the chants of KSU Wildcats echo through OUR empty stadium and then listen to that idiot of a coach Mitchell try to speak on the radio after the game....a duh ya know, ya know ahhh ya know.... makes me sick. This guy is our recruiting coord. I spoke with some guys on the team and he never spoke to them or their families. He believes he is too important to talk to them. He prances around like he is a god. This guy is a loser and he is part of the problem. His offense rushes for 76 yards. No way we will win with that. MITCHELL ET AL GO OR THIS SEASON TICKET HOLDER GOES. MAKE YOUR CHOICE KU.

danmoore 8 years, 7 months ago

Firing Gill would be the easy solution. He would become only one in a long line of head coaches unable to meet the demands of fans who can not fill up a 50k stadium.

The hard part is finding a replacement and then keeping him should he succeed. And before you go tossing out names, keep it real. We are not going to lure Tony Dungy or Urban Meyer. The next KU coach will be a head coach from the MAC or an OC/DC from a BCS conference.

danmoore 8 years, 7 months ago

After Mangino was canned someone suggested Bill Walsh who had been dead for at least two years.

danmoore 8 years, 7 months ago

Con USA and WAC coach. No different than MAC.

Maracas 8 years, 7 months ago

Chuck "third and" Long should be shown the door along with Turner Gill. He sucks just as badly.

Orangedog87 8 years, 7 months ago

How much incentive and motivation do you have to work and perform when you get a guaranteed $10 million dollars for 5 years work? His salary is the frosting on the bad performance. In this economy with so many out of work and so many with not enough work, it is hard to watch something that is supposed to be entertainment on the day off for working stiffs that is a poor performance and the person in charge becomes a millionaire for it. Seriously, between the ticket scandal, the free exercise equipment and the highly paid coaches you have to wonder what kind of ovesight there is at KU. Didnt Perkins have a boss at KU or was he allowed to just hire whomever at whatever salary and the salary is guaranteed with no connection to performance.....if that was his ticket no wonder he did not think he had to pay for exercise equipment. Anyone wonder if Perkins is getting some kickback from his highly paid guaranteed salary coaches...kind of like expecting KU vendors to provide kick backs such as free exercise equipment?

Jeff Coffman 8 years, 7 months ago

Don't forget he made a $100k bonus last year...his salary was actually $2.1MM with the bonus.

Don't know why you get a bonus for a 3-9 season.

I always like when we are talking about buying him out and giving him bonuses as well.

Orangedog87 8 years, 7 months ago

Didnt forget...didnt know. Wow a $100,000 bonus ..for the geat performance! His bonus for last year was more than most peoples annual salary. Kackley is right. Mass Street becomes Wall Street.

gorilla10 8 years, 7 months ago

People, PEOPLE.......We will be making money by giving Gill the boot. NOBODY is going to buy tickets to KU football or support the team headed in this direction........

Bill Kackley 8 years, 7 months ago

You got that right. I have had season tickets since Terry Owens and drive 4 1/2 hours one way to the games and if Gill is back next year, I am not.

danmoore 8 years, 7 months ago

Seriously, the chancellor? Let’s can the governor and the president while we’re at it. The only thing embarrassing is your post.

Orangedog87 8 years, 7 months ago

let's get the bunch of clowns and hapless comedians to perform instead of the football team ...that might be entertaining and a lot cheaper

JakeBarnes 8 years, 7 months ago

I disagree. I wish we could fire the president POTUS and governor.

Cmill1221 8 years, 7 months ago

Hey!! Dont forget who hired Bill Self.

JBird43 8 years, 7 months ago

Basketball season isnt going to be much better thanks to clueless bill and his homies. dont get me wrong i love ku athletics but i think all the ku football haters and basketball school only folks are gonna get disappointed too this year, just earlier than losing in the Tourney.

callowax 8 years, 7 months ago

I don't know your reasons for calling out the Chancellor, but I will say this ... the University of Kansas has much bigger problems than Turner Gill.

WilburNether 8 years, 7 months ago

One might consider the fact that we have a pathetic collection of football players, fewer than half of whom were recruited by Gill.

Just sayin'.

Bill Kackley 8 years, 7 months ago

Sorry disagree. There is a lot of talent out there just not a lot of coaching. We have just as much talent as KSU but they are so much better coached.

Hammertoe 8 years, 7 months ago

While Bill Synder is a great coach, he has faster players that are better conditioned. Maybe you had to be there....

JHawk74 8 years, 7 months ago

I vote for Mike Leach or Mike Stoops for the head coach position at KU!

JHawk74 8 years, 7 months ago

Jim Leavitt would also be a good choice.

jbc03c 8 years, 7 months ago

As a Tampa Bay native and former USF student I disagree. Leavitt is an absolute clown. Sure, they won big games, but when the train hit a rough section of track it derailed. They could never recover from a loss; they'd win 6 or 7 straight, then lose 3 or 4 in a row. And what kind of coach head butts a player...much less one with a helmet on!!! Let's just say he ran out the tunnel for the second half with blood all over his face. Idiot and emotional wreck. Lol.

manginodrh00lz 8 years, 7 months ago

Stoops? The same Stoops who was fired from AZ? What makes you think he'll do better at KU? You have failed this forum but most importantly, you have failed your parents.

JHawk74 8 years, 7 months ago

You said it again 'failed this forum' and 'failed your parents' this is getting old. You better find a new saying. I vote for manginodrh00lz as the board idiot? Who is with me?

Cmill1221 8 years, 7 months ago

Sorry but Mike Stoops is overrated. living in Vegas i have seen alot of ASU and UofA stuff. not impressive.

Cmill1221 8 years, 7 months ago

But excuse me STILL BETTER THAN GILL. So lets call him!!

Kyle Sybesma 8 years, 7 months ago

There were plenty of reasons to hire Gill. He had been successful at Buffalo and is a midwest guy with ties to the state of Texas. I was excited about this hire. In his press conference he said he would "recruit" every other word and I loved it. He was speaking like a guy a player would want to play hard for. After the win vs ranked Georgia Tech and I thought we had something. I know he was left with nothing after Reising and Meier left and I defended him.

A year and a half later the recruits have been subpar. He moved our most promissing running back Opurum to defense. He shows no emotion, positive or negative. Find a player after a series and provide him coaching moment.... something. We know there are plenty of opportunities to teach something to someone. In a rebuilding year with a second coach I'm not to disapointed in losses but I am looking to be competitive. Make your opponent keep it's starters in the entire game. Make them sweat at half time. OU did. With three more years Gill is on pace to become competitive in year five when we should be competitive this year and thinking about wins and bowl games and a contract extension in five years. By 2014 Gill may give our opponents a game but will our record show it?

Paul Rupp 8 years, 7 months ago

Bring in Kathleen Sebelius as Chancellor---we need to start at the top with someone strong, and someone Kansas, to restore Jayhawk Nation--Budig, I guess, was a "strong" chancellor?---(who are these idiots who hire our chancellors?---let's bring their names into the conversation!). I've been a supporter of Gill until today, but the contract he is under is unbelievably stupid---Spend 2 million bucks to hire a D Corordinator (who can really be the head coach) and get someone for a short-term, big time fix, to right this ship instead of spending 6 million to fire Gill, then another 2 to hire ANYONE for just the next year. Thanks Lew. Thanks Regents.

Orangedog87 8 years, 7 months ago

Kathleen Sebelius is too busy writing really cool regulations to tell doctors how to do or not do their jobs.....doesnt strike me as someone I would want involved in anything that is supposed to be entertainment.

bjejayhawk69 8 years, 7 months ago

Gill played at Nebraska and was a position coach for how many years (never a coordinator) and was never even considered or mentioned or groomed to be their head coach. Red flag ????? But Osbourne recommended him for some other schools head coach.

I have had 3 or 4 KSU friends that have said you could switch rosters and Snyder and his staff would still have KSU is a similar spot. Obvious difference is coaching from the strength and conditioning coach up to the head coach. It is a painfully obvious nightmare we are living in now.

Micky Baker 8 years, 7 months ago

If Bill Snyder was at Kansas for the past three years, Kansas would be 7-0 and winning by 30 every game, even against Oklahoma.

bjejayhawk69 8 years, 7 months ago

Gill played at Nebraska and was a position coach for how many years (never a coordinator) and was never even considered or mentioned or groomed to be their head coach. Red flag ????? But Osbourne recommended him for some other schools head coach.

I have had 3 or 4 KSU friends that have said you could switch rosters and Snyder and his staff would still have KSU is a similar spot. Obvious difference is coaching from the strength and conditioning coach up to the head coach. It is a painfully obvious nightmare we are living in now.

blackhawkjayhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Everybody join in....June Jones, June Jones, June Jones.

He'll recognize that we have some talent, that we are in a BCS conference, that the support is there.

June.....come on up.

741hawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Another JJ supporter . . . two years ago, too!

texashawk10 8 years, 7 months ago

I was under the impression that KU's problem was defense not offense so how does June Jones help solve that problem?

142466 8 years, 7 months ago

The current state of KU football is yet another reason for getting the league back to at least 12 members. Our schedule will then be easier.

I've observed KU sports over the last 60 years. KU's head FB coaches seem to fit into 3 different categories:

Category #1--they do a decent job at KU and then depart for a better coaching job, like Pepper Rodgers or Glen Mason.

Category #2--their teams show steady improvement over a period of 4 or 5 years, culminating in an 8 or 9 win season. This great (by KU standards) season is then followed by 1 or 2 average or poor seasons, at which time they're fired. Like Mitchell, Fambrough or Mangino.

Category #3--completely inept, like Valacente and Gill.

Category #1 or #2 coaches are always immediately succeeded by Category #3 coaches. Too bad that the fans and donors always pressure the A.D. into firing Catagory #2 coaches before they are given a chance to return the program to an average state.

We ought to accept the fact that KU will always be BB rich and FB poor. Many schools are weak in both sports. Be thankful for what we've got. If we are lucky enough to again find a consistent 4, 5, 6 win (once in while 7 or 8 win) coach, why don't we cut him a little slack, instead of running him off for yet another Category #3 guy?

LSHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

I am sick and tired of this BS! KU does not have to accept being a BB only school!! Its only the short sightedness of those amoung our supporters that believe this. WE can be a great BB school AND a GOOD FB school, It just takes VISION and determination. WE MUST GET BETTER AT FOOTBALL, have you people not been paying attention the last 3 months???

milehighhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

It's not a loser's mentality, it's reality without the bias of fanhood.

It would be like Nebraska basketball fans being personally offended because they aren't in the top 25 every year and wondering "Why aren't we awesome too?!"

You can't equate flash-in-the-pan successes in the last 30 years with the hallmarks of a top-notch program. To do so ignores not only long-term history but a number of major obstacles to becoming a true bball/fball school (and how many of those are there, exactly? I'll spot you Texas.)

Hank Cross 8 years, 7 months ago

Who says UT is a true FB/BB school? They won their 1st FB title since the 70s b/c USC didn't punt on their last possession. No NCs, not even appearing in the title game says where UT's BB is at.

Michigan and Ohio state may be the only schools that can hope to be consistently good at both.

LaJHawk666 8 years, 7 months ago

Florida and Michigan St. do pretty well at both. UCLA used to be in that group, maybe USC in the future. But they are certainly few and far between.

I'm in the camp that wants KU to be elite in BB and competitive in FB, with an occasional breakout year, like '07-'08. But with realignment, our football program struggles at our school's peril.

voiceofreason2 8 years, 7 months ago

Beautifully put 142466. I appreciate your observance of KU sports in your time. I think you are exactly right. For crying out loud, we shouldn't expect a national championship competitor from our football squad, bur some sort of competition should be expected. And it's not going to happen with HCTG at the helm.

Andy Smith 8 years, 7 months ago

While you're studying coaches, take a look at Jack Mitchell. He's in a category of his own. We destroyed kstate every year. His teams gave up no points to kstate for years. Let's start there. Mitchell had passion. He wanted to destroy his rival. Gill has no passion. No fever. No emotion.

Jayhawk444 8 years, 7 months ago

I have been in the "give Gill a chance" camp all along...until today. I know preseason expectations were 2 or 3 wins at best. I expected improvement and we have seen some on offense. After last week, I thought maybe our defense would not be the record-setting bad defense it had been the first half of the season. But after today, I no longer want to support Gill. We returned a kickoff to the KSU 20. Momentum? No. Bring it back because of a penalty. We put together a nice drive and score with 14 sec left in the first half to pull to 28-14. Momentum? Should have been. But we gave up two fumbles and 17 points over the next 1 min, 8 sec. of game time. Freakin' embarrassing. I always stay until the end of games, but I left at the end of the 3rd quarter today. I find myself not even wanting to go to the Baylor game. I find myself not wanting to buy season tickets next year. Just sad. The coaching difference on the opposing sidelines today was obvious.

baldwinjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

June Jones lives in a mansion in highland park in dallas... nuff said?

Kristen Downing 8 years, 7 months ago

I agree with June Jones as a head coach. Get real, we can't get a high level BCS school coach at this point. I say, keep Gill's recruits, keep some assistant coaches and get rid of the failed anti-Mangino replacement. We all know why he was hired, he could relate to the black players and their mothers and he would never be caught on camera chewing anyone out as I saw Bo Pelini do today in a blowout. Gill is a good man, a good recruiter and not ready for coaching at a university that needs to see improvement. May be next year, but he will be gone soon. Offer him a buyout, his family is probably ready to take it. It has got to be awkward.

Micky Baker 8 years, 7 months ago

Zenger, here is an idea. Start making phone calls and start talking to people. Talk to Mike Leach for example, and make it public so that donors know who could possibly be hired. I'd take Mark Mangino back, if he'll come back. I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't. Discipline is needed in football.

More importantly, get the current Chancellor out of the University of Kansas and bring one in that has making KU's well being the priority and not a political world view. Second make phone calls to Leach, Mangino, Mason, etc. I think that if you get Leach as head coach Mangino would work on that staff. Mason would at least be a person to consult on the matter, to get names of some of the players and coaches while he was at Kansas.

Could Jake Sharp, McAnderson or Eric Vann make good running back coaches? Offensive Coordinator, let me see, well that would be Mark Mangino. How about contacting the former defensive coordinator under Mark Mangino, who I believe is at LSU or Florida? Why would we have not offered these guys money to stay? Hindsight is 20/20, but it was predictable.

jhwkfan162515, June Jones might be a pretty good candidate. Mangino as offensive coordinator or offensive line coach, Mike Leach the one that Mangino doesn't get. Defensive Coordinator, though is a tough one. Whoever that would be needs to have a mentor.

All I know is if we don't fix this now, its going to have deep and long-term consequences.

gorilla10 8 years, 7 months ago

Mangino??? Do you remember the way KU treated him.......you have no idea what you're talking about....

gorilla10 8 years, 7 months ago

LEACH LEACH LEACH........Similar style to Mangino which worked for KU! I bet 95% of KU fans wish Mangino was still here......Thanks Lew Perkins!

Andy Tweedy 8 years, 7 months ago

It appears you are correct. He has succeeded at every other level of coaching, but this isn't working out well for him, for us, for his players or for this university.

Andy Tweedy 8 years, 7 months ago

It sure seems Gill's days are numbered. As we all know, coaching changes seem to flip flop from what is already in place. But I don't necessarily think we'll go from nice to tough. What I do think will happen is we go from offensive to defensive. I would be shocked if our next coach isn't a defense first guy. If Long sticks around, maybe we could get some balance.

I happen to agree that Gill maybe should be given more of a chance. But it's gotten so bad, I'm not sure that's the way to go any more. This team is just a DISASTER on defense. I've seen some pretty bad KU defenses, but this is as bad as I can remember.

Jim Williamson 8 years, 7 months ago

Mike Leach to the white courtesy phone, please.

VaJay 8 years, 7 months ago

As with many here, I've been on the "give him a couple of years bandwagon", but watching the total lack of competitiveness in the recent games and the gametime decision-making (or lack thereof) - i.e. insisting on speeding up games against powerhouse offensive teams instead of slowing the game down & reducing the number of possessions for the other team, or the wasted time outs, 3rd quarter disasters not seen in how many years?, players way out of position - the list goes on and on. So I've seen enough & believe the only solution is for him to be gone and I hope coach Gill shows he's a reasonable person & only accepts payment for two full seasons.

There appear to be several well-qualified unemployed coaches out there that I think could do wonders with the current squad.

But in these posts - try to restrict your barrage of abuse to the coaching staff & not the players, many of whom have shown great character, ability, and a willingness to fight for every yard or to try to make plays, no matter how bad the score is. (over on the Keegan ratings blog, some idiot said there should only be a top five for this game - ridiculous! - I'd like to see that lame couch potato suit up & get out on the field!)

HireJimTressel_ku 8 years, 7 months ago

One year ago I was hearing about how exciting KU football would be vs KSU on Thursday night football. Its ended with the student section engulfed in Purple and me walking stunned to my car being heckled by KSU fans. I saved the ticket stub and felt a little better after trashing ksu in afh in January. Still I have been waiting for today for payback. I now feel more sick than ever. Why do I think KSU won't score 59 points again next year. Because the laws of probability are on my side? That is all I can hang my hat on right now.

I really wanted Turner Gil to succeed. Because I love my school. I want to win. I love football, and what he did at Nebraska. But talking to the small sample of players I have I am stunned by their attitude toward the game. They love football, love the coach, love each other, its great. But their preparation is a joke. They seem so lost out there. They are making the same mistakes over and over again. They are not getting better. I don't think anyone involved knows what the phrase "in game adjustments" means.

Turner Gil has to go. Not because they are losing. Not because he can't recruit. Because he can not lead. This is a team without any direction and it is not only drifting, it is sinking. What is the difference between GT week 3 and KSU this week. We can not do anything fundamentally well. When we drove the ball it was because KSU backed off. This team is not only young, it is record setting bad. I couldn't get the defense to allow 600 yards per game if I tried on a video game because it is preposterously absurdly bad!

The only move is to make a monster splash. The team has quit. The fans have given up. Where is the hope? The man for the job is JIM TRESSEL. Why? Because he may have one more real shot left to leave his legacy. Who is going to give him a shot? It should be KU

Kristen Downing 8 years, 7 months ago

Totally agree. Do you have any suggestions for a replacement?

bayareajhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Perhaps a clue to that can be found in his username.

Andy Smith 8 years, 7 months ago

I kept the ticket stub from that game too. I kept it as a painfull reminder that TG is a terrible coach and will never win. I kept it to prevent me form getting too caught up in the hype about KU football as long a sTG is head coach. He will never win. NEVER!

AzNHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

"But in these posts - try to restrict your barrage of abuse to the coaching staff & not the players, many of whom have shown great character, ability, and a willingness to fight for every yard or to try to make plays, no matter how bad the score is. (over on the Keegan ratings blog, some idiot said there should only be a top five for this game - ridiculous! - I'd like to see that lame couch potato suit up & get out on the field!) - VaJay

I really agree with this.

FlintHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

It made me wince. And that last line sounds a lot like "[Gill's] playing his fiddle while [Kansas] burns."

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

Gill supporters are stupid. Never argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. To those of you who are sensible, let the Gill supporters just ramble and ignore them. If you care about football at Kansas, sign a petition or picket outside of Zenger's office to fire Gill.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

Bob Lutz: Saturday's loss another step back for KU, Turner Gill BY BOB LUTZ The Wichita Eagle More News

Bob Lutz: Saturday's loss another step back for KU, Turner Gill
K-State defense making many big plays

LAWRENCE — It's becoming harder to argue for Turner Gill to continue as Kansas' football coach.

But I'm going to stick to my guns that Gill, whose Jayhawks imploded Saturday against Kansas State in a way you had to see to believe, needs more time.

More time for what, I'm not sure. Because this is bad. Really bad.

Kansas wasn't going to beat the unbeaten Wildcats under any circumstances. But to lose the way KU lost — and adding this collapse to all that have come before — is heavy artillery for the anti-Gill crowd, which believes the former Nebraska quarterback is in over his head in the Big 12.

To that end, read ahead.

Kansas, which has some offensive firepower, scored a touchdown with 14 seconds left in the first half Saturday to cut K-State's lead to 28-14. OK, it was a two-touchdown deficit, but not a bad way to go into the locker room considering the Jayhawks were showing the ability to move the football.

Now the story takes a turn.

KU did not kick deep and K-State's Laton Dowling returned the ball to the K-State 43, where the Wildcats started with 11 seconds remaining.

There was no taking a knee and going to the locker room with a 14-point lead. Instead, quarterback Collin Klein dropped back to pass. He looked deep. And he found a wide-open Tyler Lockett, who blazed 48 yards to the Kansas 9 before a timeout. With one second left, Anthony Cantele kicked a 26-yard field goal to make it 31-14.

Who gives up a 48-yard pass play on the final offensive play of the first half to a wide-open receiver? KU does.

After supposedly re-grouping at halftime, though, the circus added a fourth ring.

K-State's Lockett — Gill will have nightmares about Lockett — returned the opening kick of the second half 97 yards for a touchdown. It was 38-14 and exits around Memorial Stadium were picking up traffic.

But it gets worse.

KU's Brandon Bourbon returned K-State's kickoff 36 yards to the KU 47. Behind him, though, the Keystone Cops were at work as the Jayhawks committed three penalties: an illegal block in the back, holding and, after the play ended, a personal foul on D.J. Beshears.

Instead of getting the ball at its 47, KU got the ball at its 8. Cue the carnival music because Jayhawk running back Tony Pierson immediately fumbled. It was recovered by K-State lineman Vai Lutui and two plays later Klein scored from a yard.

It was 45-14.

Kansas' next possession resulted in another fumble, this one by quarterback Jordan Webb. It was recovered by the Wildcats' Jarrell Childs and it took six plays for Klein and that man Lockett to hook up for a 19-yard touchdown, making it 52- 14.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

In a span of 4:38, K-State expanded its lead from 28-14 to 52-14, mostly because of an array of miscues by a Kansas team that looks less and less likely to give its beleaguered fans reason for optimism.

When Gill told reporters after the game that his goal was "to continue to improve," he was asked if the Jayhawks are improving.

"I think today maybe we took a little step back as far as improving,'' Gill said. "I think there are some things there. A lot of things that are coming to the surface is our inexperience. There's a little bit of a temporary setback. It's one football game and you get ready to go for the next one.''

First of all, Saturday was not a little setback. And there is no evidence to indicate it was temporary.

There have been too many embarrassing moments for the Jayhawks and while inexperience is a legitimate factor, it's well within bounds to question how this team is being coached.

The kinds of mistakes that happened Saturday — including a terrible facemask penalty on defensive end Malcolm Walker that allowed what would have been a three-and-out for the K-State offense to keep alive a drive that resulted in a second-quarter touchdown — can't be explained away just on inexperience.

The thousands of KU fans who left after the third-quarter meltdown aren't lamenting KU's inexperience.

They're disgusted that the Jayhawks aren't playing better and have been on the bad side of mismatches in 11 of the 12 Big 12 games they have played under Gill.

In those 11 losses — KU did beat then-conference foe Colorado 52-45 last season thanks to a wild comeback — the Jayhawks have been outscored 511-157. Or 46.5 points per game to 14.3.

No doubt, Kansas' offense is better this season. But the defense is worse. Much worse. Atrociously worse, having given up 42, 66, 45, 70, 47 and 59 in the past six games.

It's commendable, I suppose, for Gill to keep a stiff upper lip through these difficult times. If he is worried about his job security or the direction of the team he coaches, he doesn't show it.

His fan base — what's left of it — does. Things continue to crumble around him, but Gill trudges on.

Check sports columnist Bob Lutz's blog at blogs.kansas.com/lutz. Reach him at 316-268-6597 or blutz@wichitaeagle.com. Posted on Sat, Oct. 22, 2011 06:23 PM

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/22/3223176/saturdays-loss-another-step-back.html#ixzz1bZlO2fvG

jhawkinsf 8 years, 7 months ago

Think Kansas, Duke, Kentucky, UCLA and you think basketball. Think Texas, Alabama, Notre Dame, USC and you think football. Sometimes one will surprise you. Kansas winning the Orange Bowl, Florida winning in both championships, but generally, schools are one or the other, but not both. What we need is a K.U. lifer, someone like Fambrough. For what's it's worth, I'd seek out the advise of Gale Sayers and then do whatever he recommends.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

But the world is changing, and because of that KU must strive to be good, if not great, in both sports.

Frankly, a review shows that even the "football" schools you cite aren't always powerhouses. All of them have been okay but not consistently dominant in FB over the past 20 years.

Alabama is were it is today because it hired Nick Saban after successively booting Dubose, then Franchione and then Mike Shula (HCs from 1997 through 2007). Notre Dame hasn't been the same since Lou Holtz left after 1996. USC has had it's ups and downs, and is presently flamed out again since savior Pete Carroll left. And the last two years Texas has reverted to its pre-Mack Brown performance when it averaged .563 winning percentage from 1987-1997.

I would be pleased as punch if KU got itself to the point where it averaged winning more than it was losing for a decade. That's called being respectable, and recognized as competition. With the right coach, it's not impossible.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

Again, a note to all sensible people. Ignore Gill supporters unless you feel like wasting your time. Let them say whatever they're going to say, but for the love of God do NOT engage in a dialogue with them, because as quickly as you do you have already taken an irrational approach and your best efforts will be wasted. I know. I've made this mistake. Focus instead on what the reality is. Gill is a terrible coach, he is causing Kansas to be the laughingstock of ALL of college football, and he needs to be fired. Draw up petitions, picket Zenger's office, or come up with a grassroots campaign to collect money to buy out his contract. I don't care if you collect a hundred dollars. Hell, Ill contribute 90. News of a movement like that will garner attention and make alumni and the AD take notice. Get this clown out of here please and bring in a coach who knows ANYTHING about coaching.

AzNHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

After the end of the season when Zenger evaluates the body of work and the state of the program, I'd be willing to guess that Zenger would give Gill year number 3 if the defense gets an overhaul. Either demote Shealy back to his old position and bring back Torbush (although I would highly think this is unlikely considering he probably just wants to enjoy life after he defeats his prostate cancer) or someone who has a load of experience in defensive schemes.

Call me blind, but after 1 year of being in Long's offensive system the offense has shown slight (some may even say minimal) improvement. Today's hurry up, pitch and pass by Webb moved the chains and got us some yardage.

I'd think that spending a whole year in a set and agreed upon defensive scheme by who ever the D coordinator would be would show results.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

Keegs, you got it right, bro. I don't think you can actually support both Kansas football and Turner Gill simultaneously.

DallasJayhawk1 8 years, 7 months ago

You can't get your a$$ handed to you this many times and still say it's re-building. He doesn't hold players accountable for their mistakes---like or not Mangino would get in a player's face if they had any of these stupid penalties we've had. We don't even look competitive. How about throw the ball down the field ?? Gill is too conservative--a nice guy but he needs to be coaching a smaller school like he was at Buffalo. Anybody that says he needs more time is crazy---there are NO signs it's getting better and what recruit wants to come to a school where teams put up 50 on you every week. The message needs to be sent by bringing in someone soon or after the season.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

"I don't expect any player, coach, administrator, fan or alum to accept today's performance or the performances in recent weeks," Zenger said. "We will get this thing fixed." Asked when that fix might come, Zenger expanded his statement and indicated that second-year coach Turner Gill at least would be allowed to finish out the season.

Doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of the football coach by the AD to ME, but then what do I know?

Asked after the game if he was concerned about his future at KU, Gill continued to push his slogan. "I'm here to coach and teach," he said. "I still believe in my ability to coach. I still believe in my ability to develop. I believe in this staff's ability to teach and develop. I feel good about it. It's just taken a little bit longer time to get things done."

That's crap and I'm not buying it. Gill knows he's terrible. What a sham! And for all of this talk about integrity, why doesn't he show a shred of it by being honest and admitting he's not up to the job. Integrity? Whatever. He's over his head and I assure you he knows it.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

I wrote this almost a year ago to the day:

<pre>KUsports.com weblogs | A Crimson Quill on Campanile Hill

Posted by Joe Ross October 19, 2010 at 11:14 a.m. Petition to Fire Turner Gill?

I wonder if Turner Gill sees what the rest of us see. Do you think he secretly feels this job is too big for him? No really. Stop and think about it. Does he sense the frustration we feel or is he oblivious to the anguish of a fan base who for the last several years has bought into the idea that KU football gave them something to look forward to on Saturdays? Yes, I’m angry. I don’t know whether or not I have a right to be, but as I write this venom is flowing through my veins. Why? Because Gill is single-handedly making a mockery of a program that was pointed in the right direction and reduced it to a joke. Let’s call a spade a spade and admit the unthinkable: a coach who has absolutely NO idea of what he’s doing has been given a ten MILLION dollar contract to coach at a Division I BCS program for five years. Put your seatbelts on. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride!

You know what’s scary? It might just be possible to have never coached these kids for single practice, have some random high school coach come in on game day and scratch plays in the dirt, and produce BETTER results than Gill's in the last two weeks. 114-14, ladies and gentleman! Even if you disagree, the fact that it’s thinkable should give one pause. Yet I bet Gill goes home at night with a certain sense of satisfaction of his place here at the University of Kansas. It sickens me! So much so that at this point I’d take Mark Mangino being doubly as cantankerous as he ever was during his time here. Apparently nice guys really DO finish last! Mark, wherever you are: the pressure put on you during your last days here was a mistake and I hope you are taking some consolation in the sham KU football has become since your departure.

And yes it’s a sham! Furthermore, I don’t care who calls my fanhood into question because of the remark. I’ll not bury my head in the sand whilst Gill rolls out travesty after travesty week-in, week-out on the football field yet sits smiling in piles of the Jayhawk faithful’s hard-earned. And as a blue-blood KU fan, I’d be the first to pull the plug on every televised Jayhawk game scheduled for the rest of the season. Thank God the networks had the good sense to do it for the upcoming ISU game. Believe me, you don’t want recruits seeing this. Turner Gill doesn’t get it, people. Were it not for the legal protections that his contract affords, I’d start a petition yesterday to have him fired before the season is over. Bring back Terry Allen. Hell, let Don Fambrough coach. ANYTHING but this!

KU football’s only bowl in sight for the next five years is the toilet bowl. “Thank you, Turner Gill.”

Yes, I'm angry.

741hawk 8 years, 7 months ago

You, like me, saw it last year when we "observed" the product. When we realized after the Colorado miracle (CU was and is BAD) that Gill had never practiced a surprise onside kick. When we realized that Chuck Long had not been able to turn around San Diego St. in three years, but Brady Hoke took them to a bowl in two. When we realized that Gill had accomplished very little at Buffalo. When we realized that The Bully Perkins considered few other candidates. When we realized that we were SCREWED.

And it just keeps gettin' worse.

danmoore 8 years, 7 months ago

Fire him and next year we will be paying the salaries of three head coaches. Mangino, Gill and whoever we hire.

AzNHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

EXACTLY! Next thing you know, the university will go bankrupt!

Unless some SUPER WEALTHY KU booster or alum just has cash laying around and would be willing to give up 10+ million to pay all those guys at once.

jayhawkgrad97 8 years, 7 months ago

Anybody watching how empty the OU stadium is as OU is about to be upset by TT. I guess Bob Stoops may be available for loosing this game it the OU fans had the mindset of most of the current KU fans. I am sick of reading all the cry baby comments. So how may of you would have your special teams run the kickoff coverage 1000 times a week, or your running back carry a football everywhere so they don't fumble (I think that probably only works in the movies), or have your Dback watch 20hrs of film, go to all your classes, still practice 10 or more hours on the field each week so he does not blow a coverage that he checks off on everyday during the week. KU will win 2 more games this year they just need to quick defeating themselves by trying to do to much.

baldwinjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

The cowpokes aren't overated by any means and will probably hand ou there ass**

nuleafjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

My guess is that Oklahoma will bring in Mangino and Stoops will be available for us.

But, we would probably pass on him and hire the guy that cleans up the stadium for Appalachian State, because he has a lot of potential.

lama 8 years, 7 months ago

Tuberville wanted the KU job. That looks a little better right now.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

Dan. If Zenger appointed you to coach the football team next year for a quarter million dollars, it would be good for YOU (you'd make a lot of money), good for the University (who, if boosters would buy out Gill's contract, could enter a period of a year or two with massive savings, compared to whats being paid now), and both of these without ANY HARM being done to the performance of the football team...even if it sucked.

danmoore 8 years, 7 months ago

We already suck. What's the risk of one more season?

nuleafjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

You're very optomistic dan.

SUCK would be a HUGE improvement for us.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

Im not gonna argue with you. Ive vowed to myself...

142466 8 years, 7 months ago

Is Nolan Cromwell still in the coaching business? Has he maintained any ties to KU or the state of Kansas?

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

RE: kackley (anonymous) replies…

You got that right. I have had season tickets since Terry Allen and drive 4 1/2 hours one way to the games and if Gill is back next year, I am not.

You have seen the light. Thank you for not drinking the koolaid.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

RE: gorilla10 (anonymous) says…

People, people.......We will be making money by giving Gill the boot. NOBODY is going to buy tickets to KU football or support the team headed in this direction.......

Your insight is a beacon! Thank you for not drinking the koolaid.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

RE: pigballin (anonymous) replies…

Very good point. I think because of his contract, Gill actually believes he is off limits and has no concern..Why should he? He is a millionaire for being unsuccessful on a football field.

I'm livid about it, too! "Upsetting" doesn't begin to describe... Thank you for not drinking the koolaid.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

RE: DallasJayhawk1 (anonymous) says…

You can't get your a$$ handed to you this many times and still say it's re-building. He doesn't hold players accountable for their mistakes...Anybody that says he needs more time is crazy---there are NO signs it's getting better...

Your sanity is unimpeachable. Thank you for not drinking the koolaid.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

RE: VaJay (anonymous) says…

As with many here, I've been on the "give him a couple of years bandwagon", but watching the total lack of competitiveness in the recent games and the gametime decision-making (or lack thereof) - i.e. insisting on speeding up games against powerhouse offensive teams instead of slowing the game down & reducing the number of possessions for the other team, or the wasted time outs, 3rd quarter disasters not seen in how many years?, players way out of position - the list goes on and on. So I've seen enough & believe the only solution is for him to be gone and I hope coach Gill shows he's a reasonable person & only accepts payment for two full seasons.

Gill is purported to be a man of integrity, maybe he will do as you suggest. In any case, thank you for not drinking the koolaid.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

RE: HawkNVegas (anonymous) says…

Biggest Loser

I think Gill is a good man, but I agree with this label insofar as it describes his coaching ability. Thank you for not drinking the koolaid.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

People all over are coming to their senses. Thank you for affirming my belief that Kansas fans are among the most intelligent out there. I'm sorry, but the case has been made here beyond reproach that Gill needs to be fired. I regret that this must happen to Gill, because he is a good man. Unfortunately, it is necessary for the best interest of all involved.

actorman 8 years, 7 months ago

I am astounded that ANYONE can still be saying to give Gill a chance after watching this team "perform." And I speak as someone who was one of those people until recently.

Enough already! For those who keep saying it takes time to build a program, I ask you: have you been WATCHING this team?!?!? The concept of "building a program" means that you are actually BUILDING something, as in showing signs of progress. None of us expected KU to have a good record this year, but we did expect at a bare minimum to not be getting destroyed EVERY WEEK! And we expected the coaching staff to show that it had some clue as to what it was doing. How do you call timeout on third down in the red zone, then call another one right after that on fourth down??? How do you give up a 40-yard-pass to a WIDE OPEN receiver with 14 seconds to go in the half???

The end of the first half spoke volumes, especially given the fact that the defense has looked like that time and time again. It's one thing to be lacking in talent, it's another thing to be consistently so far out of position that you're not in the same galaxy as the person you're supposed to be defending. And that comes down to one thing: coaching. Does a combined 80-7 in the third quarter of the last five games mean nothing to you guys? I've seen a lot of terrible football in my 35-some years of being a KU fan, including the dreadful years under Bob Valesente and Terry Allen, and I have never been more embarrassed to be a Jayhawk fan than I am right now. Even in the worst of the worst years, I don't think a team has ever been this consistently horrible.

So I ask the few remaining holdouts: on what possible basis can you believe that anything would be different next year? And I'll ask the few of you one more question: if the remaining games are the same (let's say if KU loses to ISU by two TD's and every other game by 30 points or more, and remains not just the worst defense in the country but the worst defense of all time), would you STILL believe that TG should come back for year 3, or would that finally be enough to convince you???

Steve Corder 8 years, 7 months ago

You're right. I saw it the same way.

Funny thing, I like Snyder as a man and as a coach, and if he can turn around a program like Kstate then we can expect that to happen as well. So 6 or 7 wins is not an acceptable benchmark for me.

Gill seemed "lost" on the sidelines, and if that is true then we can have no expectations for the players to perform. Leadership qualities are difficult to spot in advance, but are soon revealed.

I was so hoping for Turner Gill to succeed, but I would expect that he's getting to the place in his heart and mind that he's starting to doubt that he's not the man for KU (or maybe any football head coaching job). If so then his character, which I believe is exemplary, may lead him to discuss with the AD a resignation at a reduced buy-out. I think this is a more likely scenario....But he won't be back next year.

Gregor Southard 8 years, 7 months ago

I read the article about why Mangino should be brought back. Why not? Fambrough was brought back.

lonestar 8 years, 7 months ago

Mike Leach. I will say it louder. MIKE LEACH. He is available and given a bad rap. Read his book. I like the guy and he would be head and shoulders above anything we have had in recent memory.

texashawk10 8 years, 7 months ago

Mike Leach doesn't give a damn about defense, if he's hired KU will still be giving up record breaking performances on a weekly basis.

Dyrk Dugan 8 years, 7 months ago

i guess it's inevitable now. most other times in history, this wouldn't be happening. a coach would be allowed to get his kids in, and show the progress that can be made. but not now. not in the new era of big time athletics, means big time football MUST be good....or least competitive.

all that being said, and Gill was honest yesterday in his post game presser, this was a step back.....and his coaching was at the forefront. there is no way in the world, you let a guy wide open in the middle of the football field for a 50 yard pass play with 11 seconds left in a half...just no way. i couldn't believe we were in a base defense....NOBODY was back. that's all coaching. and then Gill blamed a kid for moving over and missing his "quarter of the field"....nonsense. you should have already known that this was the defense you should have been playing...it was KSU's only shot.

then the 2nd half kickoff....we were good on the KOs before...real good....but that one was terrible. he made some nice moves, but he wasn't touched....Mr. Lockett. 25 seconds of clock time, and they scored 10 points. ball game.

i said before this game....for Gill to really deserve a shot at this thing long term, we needed to be competitive in this game......within a score in the 4th quarter. and we weren't. now, if he doesn't get fired before the season and then finishes it out. we need to beat ISU. that's the standard. we CANNOT go 0-9 in the league....i'm sorry we just can't. and giving up 50 points a game isn't satisfactory either.

ISU is it. that is the standard. win it, and he should stay. lose it, and he's gone.

boy that TTech game would be nice to have back wouldn't it? what a great win that would have been...and it may have been our best shot of the season.

baldwinjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

The pass play before the half did it for me. Your right, they were set in base defense. We should have been in prevent defense..That was all coaching error! period.

callowax 8 years, 7 months ago

Here's a coach for you that we could get for reasonable money ... Glen Mason. Mason coached at Kansas in the mid-90's and took the team to several bowl games. He then took Minnesota to several bowl games as well. Glen is an arrogant SOB and has the ability to turn many against him, which he did at both Kansas and Minnesota. And while he left Kansas (he was hated when he left), he was fired at Minnesota. He was fired on the flight returning from their last bowl game. Minnesota's program has sunk ever since his departure. The other intersting fact about Mason, he married a Lawrence gal. He might not mind spending the rest of his time in Lawrence.

callowax 8 years, 7 months ago

Here's a coach for you that we could get for reasonable money ... Glen Mason. Mason coached at Kansas in the mid-90's and took the team to several bowl games. He then took Minnesota to several bowl games as well. Glen is an arrogant SOB and has the ability to turn many against him, which he did at both Kansas and Minnesota. And while he left Kansas (he was hated when he left), he was fired at Minnesota. He was fired on the flight returning from their last bowl game. Minnesota's program has sunk ever since his departure. The other intersting fact about Mason, he married a Lawrence gal. He might not mind spending the rest of his time in Lawrence.

Ted Adams 8 years, 7 months ago

Mike Leach - come on down! Just make sure to bring a top 25 defensive coordinator with you, or things might not look too much different.

Mark Lindrud 8 years, 7 months ago

To repeat lol. Leach is a very good coach. Lots of coaches get a second chance and do well. Leach will get a second chance so why not let it be us that gives it to him?

Jo Ann Ortgies Stork 8 years, 7 months ago

We too drove 4 hours to the game and were amazed that the majority of the season ticket holders chose to sell their seats to K-State fans to allow them to have a "HOME" field advantage in Lawrence. I continue to watch people leave the game before the half to make sure that they can continue to "tailgate" as their way of supporting our TEAM. Why would you expect anything different than what you are seeing when you exit statge right instead of supporting our team. All the negative press regarding the coaches and the teams performance---nothing positive. It really makes me sad to say that I graduated from the University of Kansas.

We have a coach with 49 Freshman on the squad and only 12 or 13 seniors. Have you forgotten that Mangino who you all admire was not a recruiter.? We had no one on the squad for head coach TG to develop. We are also competing against ALL the teams in the remaining Big 12---every year. It's going to be harder to have the team you expect--however, I'm sure you'll still be exiting stage right to the "tailgate" party even if we are winning.

Our team needs you in the seats---making some noise---not sitting on your hands and complaining . Besides, who would really want to be under the microscope of the Kansas football fans who think that your former coach deserves to be memorialized as the greatest thing since "sliced bread" and your current coach nothing but the recipient of your rath?. If I were a coach, I wouldn't accept your offer as a "head coach" as you somehow think that it is more important to criticize than support.

GET IN THE SEATS--MAKE SOME NOISE--SUPPORT OUR TEAM. Don't just post negative comments.

741hawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Check your stats. Mangino's last two recruiting classes (he had brought us back from Terry Allen) were ranked comparable to Gill's first two. This idea that the cupboard was completely bare is delusional.

Hank Cross 8 years, 7 months ago

Considering that they're giving up 50+ during both home and away games, fan support must not count for that much. Do you really think that people in the stands would make them more competitive?

The people are righ to tailgate and leave. Only suckers continue to support a product that continues to fail.

Robert Brock 8 years, 7 months ago

Better hire someone who recruits players who are not Texas leftovers. KU gets what's left after UT, A&M, TTech, TCU, OU, OSU, and Baylor get theirs. KU ends up battling Louisiana Tech and Navy for the Leftovers. Meanwhile, K-State recruits good players from KC who drive past Lawrence to attend school in Manhattan. Unnatural.

gorilla10 8 years, 7 months ago

uhhh, last time I checked KU has the best player in the state coming and had one of the best in the area in Miller........we had a better rated class by like 20 schools over kstate! ha, what are you talking about????

DallasJayhawk1 8 years, 7 months ago

Really ? Ever hear of Todd Reesing or Dezmon Briscoe ? They are from Texas. Ever hear of Drew Brees ? Like Reesing another QB from Austin. Talent is so deep here you have to take what's here--Texas, Cali and Florida are the top states for football talent.

90sHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

The thing is, once Gill is eventually fired (very likely at this point), sometime down the line he'll probably get another shot at head coach for a BCS school. It may be 10 yrs, but will probably happen. Will he do things differently then? Probably so or he knows he's doomed to repeat his time at KU. So why not make those changes now?! I was not excited about this hire from the get go, but I don't believe in changing coaches every couple of years. I see Gill getting 1 more year, and I'm on board with it; however, should the blowout losses begin next season he is gone before the mid-point. His style is not the style I'd prefer, which is getting in a player's face after the BS some of them show on a consistent basis. If that is not the way HE wants to be, he sure as heck better allow his staff to do it for him then, and then back them up when a player starts whining. Or just sit their a$$ on the bench if they don't like it.

Kyle Cornish 8 years, 7 months ago

The new hire will be Dave Doeren... Mark it down. Zenger uses his Missouri Valley ties and reaches for a guy who knows Kansas.

txjayhawk1 8 years, 7 months ago

Was just updating my resume this morning since my last employer made the business decision to "consolidate" operations. Am now changing it to reflect that I have never lost a bowl game, never finished last in Big 12 football and have recruited many talented young people to make a winning team. Too bad I have never coached D1 football or football period or I might be a damn good candidate.

Hammertoe 8 years, 7 months ago

Turner Gill makes more than Bill Synder. Gill has 3 years left at $2Million per year. At what point is a buy out not feasible.... That buy out would be a budget buster..

rockchalkjjjhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

The sad thing is you'd have to think that Lew and all of the business players involved in this payday deal surely weren't complete idiots and had an inkling that a mediocre coach in a smaller conference would result in sub-mediocre results in a big conference. Let's not forget that other folks/entities benefit besides Gill, monetarily speaking, in a deal like this. This whole national athletic coaching hire-then-bailout movement where there seems to be a continuous transfer of monies from donors and departments to a few individuals has run amok. Deals like this should NEVER EVER AGAIN be made. How about just the simple, but tried and true 'the more games won with the least possible negative off-field stories, the bigger the bonus' type of deal? Seems pretty cut and dried. If you have success while at the same time representing the university in a positive manner, then you get a bigger payday. If you continue that over a period of time, like a Self, then that payday gets exponentially bigger. Simple really.

The bigger problem is even if Gill stays and goes to a bowl in a year or two, the ticket revenue lost from these last two years can't be recovered. This revenue loss will, in effect, all but wipe out any momentum gained from the Orange Bowl era run.

Pretty much states it like it is: http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/1719

Varlo52 8 years, 7 months ago

Frankly after reading the drivel above I wonder if Gill isn't far more qualified than the gloomy doubters. It's easy to say that our defense is pitiful. Of course it is, and just who do you geniuses care to suggest who might have done significantly better, given the current personnel?

We seasoned people (read old farts) have been complaining about the younger generations(s) for eons, but I truly believe that the demand for instant gratification is stronger (and stupider) today than ever before.

I don't know whether or not Turner Gill is a good coach or a bad one. I also don't know if any of you do either. Frankly, I doubt it. But I do know that given the dregs he was left with when he arrived, two years, even if we are blown out by Mizzeri, is not enough to assess his abilities. It would take a good deal less to assess yours - or Keegan's, who in my mind is a far better candidate to leave town under a cloud.

Frankly, I would like to see better fans. If we had them we might possibly have a better team.

Now all of you fat boy lovers can go back to missing MM. Talk about one-trick ponies!

Too old to take BS from cretins anymore.

AzNHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Took the words right out of my mouth. The doubters will be in full effect and will continue to be in doubt until all of this passes over (if it ever will.)

I see Zenger giving Gill year #3 with emphasis on the gaping defensive discrepancies. As disappointing as it is to watch the team and as satanic as it may be of me, I will still continue to do my part to support this team through thick, thin, up and down.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

(Edited and reposted from a reply buried above. If you've already read it, thanks).

The attitude that "KU will never be a football school" has to change, and will only change if the Chancellor and the AD make it a point and drive that point home again and again and again with their actions.

If you check the record books, KU has had some pretty good years in football in the past. Becoming a "football" school can be done, as long as the leadership keeps it a priority and doesn't assume "we've fixed that" and move on as soon as the team gets good again.

If that attitude does not change and the Big 12 should come to an end 6 years down the road, KU will be on the outside looking in, and that will impact our precious hoops program as well. Do not delude yourselves -- without membership in a nationally relevant BCS conference, all KU athletics, even hoops, will go down hill. The best HS players want to play the best College players, and 90% of them will be going to BCS conference schools. You think Self is not recruiting well now, wait until he has to recruit without the benefit of a BCS conference cachet behind him. It would be the one thing I can think of that would cause him to seriously consider ending his career at OSU instead of KU.

So wake up, people! You don't care about football?

Fine, but if you care at all about KU overall and hoops in general, you better be willing to help support football some way, because hoops alone won't do it, and shouldn't be expected to do it.

AND if you want to throw academics into the mix (I know, I know, it's a radical idea, but let's do it), look at the funding breakout discussed in the following article. http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2011/oct... See that for the Lawrence campus, Tuition and Fees is the #2 source of income (and by inference #1 for unrestricted funds), surpassing all sources but research.

Then know that KU has suffered a precipitous drop in enrollment over the last 3 years while KState and Moo are gaining students. The drop in enrollment at KU is severely limiting academic funding, especially for unrestricted funds.

What is the one clear-cut, different factor between our two rivals enrollment situation and KU's?

The status of athletics in general, and the football programs in particular.

I don't care if you don't like football. If you love KU, you at least need to be interested in the business of football.

So stop with the "KU will never be anything more than a hoops school" crap. It can and needs to be both, or both will suffer.

Tom McPhillips 8 years, 7 months ago

You have good points and I agree but KU had a BCS quality coach and a program that came very close to playing for the national championship but played and won its first BCS bowl game instead, remember? There is no way KU will attract another quality BCS caliber coach after how it treated Mangino when it sided with some narcissistic whiny sissy players who didnt like being yelled at, rather then support and defend a coach who brought the program out of obscurity and into the national spotlight. KU had its chance for football prominence but blew it, badly. Even "IF" they could convince a BCS quality coach to come to the school, I seriously doubt that the attitudes have changed sufficiently enough that he would feel encouraged and free enough to do what needs to be done to get the program back to where Mangino had it.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

I haven't forgotten 2007. I also haven't forgotten that the Mangino abusive behavior issues actually went far beyond Memorial Stadium for years before 2009 (talk with officers who served with the Lawrence Police during Mangino's time at KU). Do you remember the incident with his son's football team? Do you remember the complaints "mundane" KU staff members had about how he treated them? For me, because of all I had been hearing outside the lines and reading in the paper regarding his behavior, the 2009 player abuse issue sadly was not revelation, it was confirmation of years of other source information. I really hated having to admit to my Lawrence homeboy brother-in-law that he had been right all along about Mangino.

A totally new administration is now in place. It is up to them to get it done. If they cannot, the onus is on them. We have nowhere to go but up after this year.

Varlo52 8 years, 7 months ago

I really for sorry for such non-football schools as Yale, Harvard, U of Chicago, etc. nd they are not even "just hoop schools."

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

I don't feel sorry for those schools at all.*

And if KU had their academic reputations, I wouldn't be making the enrollment argument regarding KU because it wouldn't be applicable.

But KU does NOT have their academic reps, and athletics is an important factor in attracting potential students. The students that schools of KU's academic ranking attract generally want to be able to be proud of their athletic programs, not embarrassed.

*Sarcasm recognized and ignored to make my point.

MorganR 8 years, 7 months ago

I urge patience and deference to the KU football players. I agree the lack of success in football is very disappointing but I also agree with commenters such as “Cosmic" and "Danmoore." If you fire coach Gill, shouldn't you have a high quality replacement that has all but agreed to accept the job? Given KU's track record of getting rid of coaches after two years or so, would some quality coaches be dissuaded from accepting the job? I worry about KU's reputation for firing coaches without giving them adequate time to build their teams.
I admire coach Gill on a personal basis and want him to succeed. .
My son noted that Notre Dame, Michigan, and others have found out that success at one school may not transfer to another school. He noted coach Tubberville's previous team (a southern team) was glad to get rid of him. A few years ago, KU was interested in Dennis Franchione (sp) that coached at Pittsburg State and other schools. After he left Alabama and went to Texas A&M, A&M couldn't get rid of him soon enough.
If KU does seek a new coach, in addition to success as a criterion, I hope they will avoid coaches that are abusive to their players or have engaged in NCAA rules violations (such as the former Ohio State coach), Unfortunately, the list of such coaches that survive these tests. and are interested in KU, may be a very short list. I also urge that we be kind and thoughtful and not cast aspersions on the character or capabilities of coach Gill, the Chancellor, or the Athletic Director.

Jack Wilson 8 years, 7 months ago

Don't believe that for a minute .. it was Bernadette Little-Gray-Little-Hyphen-Politically-Gray-Correct, who led that band.

Bville Hawk 8 years, 7 months ago

"it was Bernadette Little-Gray-Little-Hyphen-Politically-Gray-Correct, who led that band."

I'm not a big BGL fan but you have nothing to back up that statement. If you are going to make this statement when it is commonly accepted that Lew WAS the one who got us into this sh*thole, then you need to back it up. Otherwise you are wasting everyone's time with wild assertions not backed by facts.

MorganR 8 years, 7 months ago

Lol, I will leave that to you. Since I wasn't part of the vetting process for coach Gill, I certainly can't criticize those involved. I should have also mentioned that I would like a coach that graduates its athletes.

danmoore 8 years, 7 months ago

He turned down Notre Dame so we should have no problem getting him.

Eric Dawson 8 years, 7 months ago

Actually, he'd have a lot less pressure on him at KU than he would at ND.

But I don't see him getting back into coaching anytime soon given his health concerns.

Still, it is a nice dream...

CheneyHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

I'ts like we're stuck in a Ron Prince/penalty box/twilight zone and no quick relief. I feel for these kids trying to make it work in this program.

CheneyHawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Oh yea, Lew Perkins did his best to kill Wichita State and now KU FB. We Kansans have had our fill of East Coast expertise. The Conn Don gift that keeps on giving. Thank$ a million, Lew....(Ok, I"m preaching to the choir....)

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

The upside of coaching at Kansas. As a coach, you can only improve on what Gill has accomplished (I used the term loosely), and so it would be a resume builder if you could get Kansas to a bowl. A lot of young talented coaches might find this an attractive prospect whereas I think a lot of older coaches are more concerned about leaving a legacy. His youth might mean security for Kansas in the long-term if we treat him well and he sticks around. Zenger should ALREADY be working on finding out who's out there. Id be surprised if he isn't at least doing a private canvassing of coaches.

Bville Hawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Someone mentioned Nolan Cromwell. After a couple years at Texas AM Nolan is back in the NFL as receivers coach with the Rams. I think he still has an interest in KU football, but his college experience resume is much shorter than TG's. He is definitely someone that SZ should visit with regarding suggestions for potential candidates.

I think you can bet your sweet ass that SZ is working hard to find out who's out there. That would seem a logical first step. Then you go to your high-roller list and say "here's who we could get and this is what it is gonna cost." THEN you make the decision to pull the plug on this nightmare.

Randy Bombardier 8 years, 7 months ago

I like the idea of the Ransom Rambler. I don't like the idea of Leach. Too much baggage. We are not desperate. I like the idea of an interim for a season or so, then make a thorough search using a head-hunter. Long would be okay as an interim. Need a definite DC. If not Cromwell there might be a few Kansas boys who played for KSU that might be interested such as Venables, Steve Grogan. Gary Patterson? But, I still think you will make the job more attractive if you give Gill more time. The quicker we change horses, the more skiddish the horses become. Still think he would hold himself accountable to his own standards and would resign if he is not doing what he said he would do. That will make it so much easier to get a big name. How about Pinkel. He will be available in about three years after the SEC gets done with him. If he is smart, he might even take the job now so he doesn't have to live with the consequences of some delusional Tigger fans.

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

I agree, bville. You've probably made the best point that isn't being talked about. If there's no coach out there who possesses both a credible resume AND an interest in Kansas, Zenger would probably do well to give Gill another year to coach. While the thought sickens me of seeing him on the sidelines one more year, it would have two positives. One, it would reduce the amount that would be required to buy out Gill. And two, if no good coach were out there, it would give us time to find one.

I personally think Mangino is the man for Kansas and with a new AD it could work. But because a smear campaign was conducted against him, I realize Mangino may have a hard time ever getting back to Kansas. In any event, we agree that if Zenger is not looking at other coaches right now, then he is NOT worth his salt as an AD. Even as a contingency, he needs to be conducting a search...

Dan Harris 8 years, 7 months ago

Fire Gill-Hire Leach Fire Gill-Hire Leach Fire Gill-Hire Leach Fire Gill Hire Leach Fire Gill-Hire Leach Oh by the way I think we should fire Gill and hire Leach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

Coach Gill said in the post-game that players aren't doing what they're supposed to do. If they are out of position that's COACHING issue. Don't like the defensive scheme? That's a COACHING issue. Want to correct a player's performance so he doesn't make the same mistake again? That's a COACHING issue. Need new personnel to play the position to get the right coverage? That's a COACHING issue. So my question is why these coaching issues continue to impact the game so negatively on such a regular basis. Hmm...and I'm just wondering out loud to myself, "Maybe the coach IS the coaching issue."

Tracy Bedell 8 years, 7 months ago

He's tanned, rested and ready. Mangino for head coach.

Tracy Bedell 8 years, 7 months ago

He's tanned, rested and ready. Mangino for head coach.

Chris Bruning 8 years, 7 months ago

FU*CK you all.........keep gill, building a joke for players team that mangina left behind doesnt get fixed in one or two years......who are the stars on the team???? Freshman that gill brought in.....ignorant fans

Joe Ross 8 years, 7 months ago

hihawk. per comments above, it is no point in arguing with Gill supporters. It is the only thing more futile than the defenses he puts on the field.

Brak 8 years, 7 months ago

Its funny that most of you Fire Gill! bandwagoners were probably the same ones that were yelling Fire Mangino! after it took him 4 years to establish a winning season, and you now hail him a god because of one season.

DBK95 8 years, 7 months ago

Hey, Mangino won 6 games his second year, and was at least relatively competitive every year after the first. Also, unlike Gill (and it's a small sample, no question), even when Mangino WAS finishing .500, he was mixing in a win over K-State or Mizzou just about every year. Gill is just not giving them ANYTHING to defend.

optimist 8 years, 7 months ago

It seems we all have short memories. Mangino (regarded as probably the most successful coach KU has had) went 2-10 in his first season, 6-7 in his second (primarily due to bringing in a number of JuCo's and a weak Big 12 schedule), and in his third he went 4-7. I wonder if we would have witnessed the Hawks win the 2008 Orange Bowl if the nay sayers had come out against him this way? Oh wait, they did. I'm glad smarter and more patient people were making decisions then.

Gill is doing things a little differently. He has chosen to build a program (that was short on talent when he arrived) with young recruits rather than with JuCo transfers. Consequently this team is about as young as it gets. The defense is adjusting to a new scheme as a result of an unplanned coaching change right before the start of the season and a lack of depth where it's needed most. I would also like to point out that in his two first seasons Gill has had as tough a Big 12 schedule as he could have expected and he has taken on at least on real non-conference opponent which Mangino really didn't do.

What Gill has done well is attract quality, talented young men to Kansas. I would go so far as to say that overall the talent he has brought to Lawrence exceeds that which Mangino brought. We have seen significant development and improvement on offensively and I am confident that another year should bring another stable of solid talent to Lawrence and an improved defense.

I think we need to consider who will take this job if we don't give this coach a fair shot after how the University conducted itself in terminating its relationship with Coach Mangino. Gill deserves another year before we should pass judgment on him.

jaybate 8 years, 7 months ago

Turner Gill is on track in a four year program.

Second years are often come downs, when you build the offense first.

I hate football, but I hate seeing a man lynched, black or white, when he is following a feasible rebuilding plan and he's taking the lumps to do it the right way.

It takes 3-4 years to build an offense, because, unless you are a top program and get your pick of the best linemen, lesser offensive line talent takes along time to bulk up and master skills and conditioning.

Snyder mastered the obvious for people. Gill has the fetus of a good offensive organism next season, or the following season. He's also got some skill players.

What he lacks are defensive players.

In Gill's approach, which is one historically proven way to do it, not the only way, but one way, the reasoning goes you can throw a adequate defense together in one year and a good one takes two.

Defensive lines and backers are long on instinct, athleticism, and borderline anti-social aggressiveness.

Offensive players are long on bulk, technique, and teeth gritting stick to it-iveness.

Defensive coaches have to teach defensive players to read lots of keys, but but those can be learned in a season, if they have the other prerequisites.

Bottom line defensive coordinators seek the equivalent of blooded sharks. Eleven angry orca. Maybe hungry Pirahna would be a better fish metaphor. They are guys that would rather hit someone than have sex with a good looking woman, and they like sex a lot.

Off the field, linebackers come in two kinds: sane, or crazy. But on the field, they are all homocidal maniacs masquerading as athletes. They are totally, unconditionally, mouth foaming, howling mad on the field.

Any D1 defensive coordinator could build at least a competent defensive line backing corp, if he were simply allowed to recruit the Big Top in Leavenworth. This is a fact.

jaybate 8 years, 7 months ago

Dick Butkus was unusual only because of how much physical talent he had. His personality is basically indistinguishable from hundreds of college and professional line backers.

Starting next season, Gill will go out and get the next graduating flock of crazies and these will make a barely adequate defense next year.

Fourth year, the offensive linemen will be fully matured, the skill players that survive will be seasoned, and the first flock of crazies on defense will have been fully beefed up, and there will be a second crop of crazies that will be attracted because they meet the first crop of crazies already at KU.

Crazy defensive players are attracted to other crazy defensive players. They like to hang out with them. They like to drink with them. They like to put fists through walls with them and run through doors with them and turn over cars with them and raise lethal exotic animals together.

Defensive players are easy to recognize and easy to recruit.

They don't care even a little about tradition.

To land then all you have to do is show them other crazies like themselves, and say, "Here we believe hitting running backs so hard their spleens squirt up and out of the earholes of their helmets."

Oh, and there is one more magic phrase: *Unless you pull a knife, or a gun, on a player in a game, you will not be disciplined for any any infraction on the field. We believe penalties are part of the game."

Gill will happily say these very things this off-season, after spending the last two seasons laboriously appealing to the selfish reason and anal narcissism of offensive players.

Gill will say things like:

"The only thing we don't allow defensive players to do is eat the offensive players."

"I am a Christian, but I understand that ritual sacrifices have their place defense."

"I have waited all my life to see a defensive player actually tear a leg off of a running back."

"I like my strong safeties to drive their helmets up under the sternum and into the thoracic cavities of wide receivers that come across the middle."

"If you can figure out how to water board an offensive player in a dog pile, you will letter."

"I want defensive players willing to hit a blind dog just for fun."

Gill will be okay, if KU lets him get through this season.

There is no reason for Gill to waste any time on specialty teams yet this season. Specialty teams are only good when they are full of man eating line backers and head hunting strong safeties of the kind he will start recruiting this season.

Gill, after all, has been stalked by many vicious defensive players in his career as a QB. He has looked them in the eye many times and seen them snarling and snorting in hopes of trying to knock his eyeballs out into the cheap seats. He knows what they like to hear.

"At training table, we serve quarterback brains every Wednesday."

gchawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Jaybate, one of your best post ever, and you've had many. I loved the analogies. It's difficult to be a Gill supporter right now because of the lack of any noticeable improvements on defense, even though we're being told they're there. Maybe waiting on improvements is like mountain climbing, sometimes we have to go to a lower level in order to get to a higher peak, but it sure is painful to watch.

Nancy Borst 8 years, 7 months ago

At this point, almost anyone would be an improvement if he has a pulse. Gill is EMOTIONLESS. Face it. We could simply rewind and play the tape from every postgame press conference this year for our remaining games. "It's just one game." "We're showing steady improvement."

Gag me. Get pissed. Yell. Call your team out. Oh, wait. That might upset a player. God forbid we get angry about losing because after all, the most important thing is that we "believe."

I'm going to go puke now.

David Atchley 8 years, 7 months ago

Keegs...the bigger challenge is the "search committee" that was assembled that perceived Gill and Zenger the proverbial best of the bunch! It appears there objective was to pick the lowest hanging fruit available.

Meanwhile, please convey to anyone you may know on this "crack" team assembled and pass along the names of "Chad Morris" and "Mike Leach." Of course I realize they're both offensive minded coaches. The simple minds will demand we need a "defensive minded" coach. The issue is attracting a coach that is well-connected throughout the high schools in Texas. Its where the OUs and UTs have made their bones over the years.

If you hire either of these coaches, it immediately puts you in "politically" within the circles of high school coaches throughtout Texas, and both have proven they bring a very successful and electric brand of football to the field. I assure you the regard both of these coaches enjoy, will bring with them the very best staff, including a defensive coordinator.

Commenting has been disabled for this item.