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Friday, July 15, 2011

Keegan

Commentary: KSU 13, Kansas 1 — really

Kansas State guard Jacob Pullen celebrates with the Bramlage Coliseum crowd following the Wildcats' 84-68 upset win over Kansas on Monday, Feb. 14, 2011.

Kansas State guard Jacob Pullen celebrates with the Bramlage Coliseum crowd following the Wildcats' 84-68 upset win over Kansas on Monday, Feb. 14, 2011.

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Competing with the Big 12’s Oklahoma and Texas schools in sports other than men’s basketball always will present a steep challenge for Kansas University.

Recruits tend to want to go to nearby schools. Oklahoma and especially Texas produce far more talented athletes than does Kansas.

In some sports, such as baseball, softball and track and field, weather also works against KU. In some cases, athletic budgets and facilities favor others.

Call them excuses, but to an extent they just as easily could fall under the category of reasonable explanations that play a factor in the Jayhawks finishing dead-last in the all-sports standings.

Yet, it’s not difficult to find a counter to the argument geography plays the biggest part in Kansas’ failing to compete for any conference titles outside of men’s basketball. The excuse falls apart 75 miles to the west, 10 to the north.

Kansas State doesn’t have superior facilities to those of KU, does not have as sizeable a budget, has similar weather and is at an even greater geographic disadvantage because it’s not as close to Kansas City.

Despite those hurdles, the Wildcats dominated the Jayhawks on the fields and courts of competition during the 2010-2011 school year. In so doing, the ’Cats supplied their athletic director, John Currie, with a chance to boast, although he didn’t choose to do so in a tacky way.

In a letter to ’Catbackers dated June 1 and still posted on kstatesports.com, Currie lists the Wildcats’ athletic achievements the past year. The final one listed, as if an afterthought so as not to be accused of rubbing it in, reads: “A combined 13-1 record against the Jayhawks in head-to-head competition.”

Really? It didn’t sound right, but a check of the records shows KU did indeed go 1-13 in the rivalry that desperately needs a nickname better than “Sunflower Showdown.”

The loss that stung the most: Kansas State 59, Kansas 7, a Thursday night blowout, Oct. 14, 2010, in Memorial Stadium, during which the players on the home team looked as if they were running in cement shoes, affirming why coach Turner Gill has put such a premium on recruiting faster players.

The lone victory: Kansas 90, Kansas State 66, fueled by Thomas Robinson’s 17-point, nine-rebound tribute to all those who supported him through his heartache. The game was played two days after his mother’s funeral.

K-State avenged the loss on Valentine’s Day, 84-68, when Jacob Pullen juiced Bramlage Coliseum with 38 points.

Kansas State swept two games in women’s basketball, executed a three-game sweep in baseball and swept two apiece in volleyball, rowing and women’s tennis.

If a coach of a nonrevenue sport chooses to whine about either the local newspaper or the K-State sports website reporting the data, he or she better not do so within earshot of first-year KU AD Sheahon Zenger. He’s not going to want to hear it. He’s not into using slogans in an attempt to create false perceptions about the state of the athletic department (aside from the perennial powerhouse men’s basketball program). Denial’s not his game. He’s interested in winning, not in offering a shoulder to capture the tears of those too often losing.

Comments

thunderjam 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm just thankful the success of my athletic program isn't based on its head-to-head record against Kansas State.

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Keith Hummel 2 years, 9 months ago

I have to say the comments on this article have been surprising and disappointing. Not just because I disagree with allot of them, but because so many have been so filled with bias and Keegan hatred, and have been so ill-informed.

First, some have argued that Keegan cherry-picked stats to support his anti KU bias. This is simply not so. If you don't believe Keegan or me, then perhaps you'll believe the NACDA. Each year the NACDA awards the "Directors Cup" to the school with the best all-around athletic program. For 2010-2011 year, KSU placed 58th on their list and KU placed 72nd (worst out of all Big 12 schools). If anything, Keegan was being charitable, as the disparity between KU and KSU was even worse than he reported. For that he is vilified?

Others have argued that Keegan's article blames the current state of affairs entirely on the new athletic director, Sheahon Zenger. The article actually never blames Zenger for any of this. In fact, if you read the last paragraph carefully you'll see that he actually takes some pot shots at the previous athletic director, and states clearly that Zenger is not going to settle for mediocrity or excuses. What part of that could possibly be pro-Lew and anti-Zenger?

Then there are those who say this was the last straw in the anti-Keegan crusade, and that this article was so egregiously anti-KU that Keegan simply must be fired. Yet I read nothing in this article that wasn't true, and all he did was suggest KU could and should do better. Is it anti-KU to expect us to do better against our in-state rival, who spent far less and had fewer advantages? If so, we are truly in a sad state of affairs.

Finally, comments came from those arguing that all non-revenue sports should simply be abolished so that we can focus more time on what truly matters. As if our esteemed Universities haven't been corrupted enough by big money, folks want to eradicate the last vestiges of the "student athlete". This argument assumes of course that non-revenue sports have no real value to society or the University. Yet study after study shows the opposite is true. Like I stated in an earlier comment, this entire discussion is bogus unless you first discuss the value of student athletes - the real ones - not the ones that indirectly hold our Universities hostage.

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BillSelf4Prez 2 years, 9 months ago

why is this on KUsports? Who cares its just this year and personally i care about mens basketball and football. So KSU can have this one while we cut down the nets in New Orleans and see who's laughing then. They can have their wins in sports no one cares about.

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squawkhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

And, unfortunately, when they think of KU they think of ticket scandals and fraud, fat football coaches, awful FB teams, corrupt AD departments, overpaid coaches and so on. Point is, neither school is as good as they think and neither school has the image they really want.

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jayhawkinnebr 2 years, 9 months ago

Kansas ST. tops the list on sports in the State of Kansas.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 9 months ago

So, can anyone help me?

This article seems to have left out Women's Soccer, Softball, Swimming...

So if losing in head-to-head competition is a black eye, what does it mean if a school doesn't even compete in a given sport?

Seems to be a glaring omission from this article, and perhaps part of the reason so many here are getting an anti-KU (or at the very least, a non-favorable slant) from Keegan's piece.

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Sam Constance 2 years, 9 months ago

"Pay attention to me!!!!!!"

Sincerely, squawkhawk KU "fan"

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Sparko 2 years, 9 months ago

Kansas is a deep red state with so many more problems than sports. I am willing to let Keegan go immediately. This nasty reporting slant has got to go.

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squawkhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

And KSU did this with a fraction of the budget...what does that say about the state of affairs at KU? SAD, VERY SAD!

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squawkhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

This was head-to-head competition. It is a lot easier to confound the wins and losses when you throw in a bunch of other teams. Nice try though.

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Tuskin 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow, what a skewed comparison between the two schools.

I believe KU beat KSU in cross-country running. Sure, that and other unmentioned sports would left out of KSU's publicity papers on purpose, but why wouldn't a reporter dig any deeper? Too busy?

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AZHawk72 2 years, 9 months ago

Oops, sorry about the day-night doubleheader above--oddly, the game was called due to daylight--go figure.

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AZHawk72 2 years, 9 months ago

PS. It bothers me that Arizona landed Gabe York, and the first thing he did was call Brandon Ashley to come join him. Watch Arizona's Miller carefully, as he already has USC, UCLA, and Washington cowering a bit. If the 'Hawks think they have an "in" with anyone in the West right now, I wouldn't count on it. Shabazz doesn't even mention us in articles out here, and it appears to be Arizona or UCLA. Good luck, UCLA--you're second tier now. If this is Wooden vs. Olsen, the perception out here is that Miller is Wooden.

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AZHawk72 2 years, 9 months ago

PS. It bothers me that Arizona landed Gabe York, and the first thing he did was call Brandon Ashley to come join him. Watch Arizona's Miller carefully, as he already has USC, UCLA, and Washington cowering a bit. If the 'Hawks think they have an "in" with anyone in the West right now, I wouldn't count on it. Shabazz doesn't even mention us in articles out here, and it appears to be Arizona or UCLA. Good luck, UCLA--you're second tier now. If this is Wooden vs. Olsen, the perception out here is that Miller is Wooden.

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Fortesque Beagleton 2 years, 9 months ago

Sadly, Zenger has to bide his time for at least this year. Politically it wouldn't be good to come in and start dropping the axe on coaches. However, this IS the time to start giving some ultimatums.

Bonny: You're going to the NCAA tourney or your packing your bags.

Gill: This year is a freebie, but that noose is getting tighter every time you get blown out of the water. Year three we should expect 5 or more wins. Year four we need to see a bowl game. Year five, if there is one, you'd better be fighting for a league championship.

Self: I love you, but the next time you lose to a mid-major in the tourney you're docked a cool million. Sure, get beat by Duke or Ohio State in the Elite Eight if you have to - we can probably stomach that. But when Southeast Central Baptist State hands it to us, you've got to pony up.

The rest of you: You're on notice.

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William Blake 2 years, 9 months ago

History of football:

So one fall day in Lawrence, James Naismith was on his way to coach his game of basketball and he noticed the gym was closed for renovation work. In disgust, he kicked his basketball so hard it became deformed. The ball rolled into the field beside the gym where other players were walking. Naismith hollered, "hey... you wanna kick that ball back to me?"

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FoCoCoHawk 2 years, 9 months ago

There are many indices for what make a university great: libraries, endowment associations, independent ratings of graduate programs, number of National Merit Finalist students, professional awards given to professors, etc. These are all quantifiable entities, apt grist for dispassionate number-crunching. A one year, all sport won-loss records against an in-state rival is certainly demonstrative of something, but in terms of enrollment decision-making rates somewhere between tuition/grant availability and the average cost of a pitcher of beer.

No, what makes an alma mater a TRUE soul mother are the qualitative intangibles: things like skinny-dipping at Lone Star Lake instead of studying for finals. Or the tears in your eyes watching beloved colleagues Walk Down The Hill. Or getting goosebumps watching the Rock Chalk cheer at the Phog. Or even having a brief and lucid conversation with the Tan Man. KU and basketball are so inextricably intertwined that they transcend analysis. Mt. Oread is essentially the birthplace of the only true American sport, one that is sweeping the planet right now. Somewhere, someone is "chinning" a basketball, elbows out, looking for a safe outlet pass, tying to be a better teammate. This is the kind a metaphor we need in a post-modern dystopia.

And it's all embodied in that little bird with the goofy grin and the golden shoes.

RCJH!

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Benjamin Piehler 2 years, 9 months ago

leave it to KSU to keep track of stuff none of the rest of us are... they count how many times they beat us in a year, we are chasing the next conference title in hoops. We've got our thing, they dont really have one... all the can really do is get excited/release a DVD when they slow us down.

So good for state, I guess? I'm sure admissions are skyrocketing after the performance of their volleyball/rowing teams.

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AZHawk72 2 years, 9 months ago

I can't believe that we've stooped to "shooting the messenger" due to our pathetic performance against, what should be, an inferior opponent and rival. After twenty-seven years of working for newspapers and thirteen years of teaching high school English, I was reminded repeatedly "why" I walked away from both. My 60s mentality (which Jaybate does a good job of rekindling) often reminds me of my not wanting to be around in my own mid-sixties, but I'm stuck--I'm still here. Oh, I know so many who bitch about how "things used to be" with Hadl, Coan, Zook, Sayers, Douglas, Laverne Smith, Cromwell, and many more. The swimming program dominated, the track team, with Ryan attracting other studs, kicked some serious behinds be it here, Drake, or wherever. However, it's now. Social media is emerging as the best oxymoron since "politically correct."

I always hated school, and I hated teachers even more. I certainly hated people who told me what I didn't want to hear. Somewhere in my junior year after dropping out, doing basic training, and returning to three years of good grades and a couple of degrees, I decided that my teachers were "the bomb", my school was the same, and the cozy stadium just down the hill, and the fieldhouse that made me deaf for days were the best places on earth.

We need to quit turning our backs on what's gone South instead of our preoccupation of the shortcomings of what continues to point North. This just isn't the school I attended for five (no, the Best five years of my life.)

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jaybate 2 years, 9 months ago

"Some Conspiracies that May Be Causing KU's Minor Sports to Suffer"

~CIA reviving MK-ULTRA and to see if they can de-pattern an entire university and alumni by exposing them to 24/7 losing for years on end.

~Aliens from the Planet Loser have taken over KUAD and the Man in Black case officer tasked with ridding KU of these extraterrestrials is from MU.

~SecHHS KittySib landed KSU another top secret chem/bio warfare grant to design genetically modified cattle manure that when spread as lawn fertilizer takes away a people's will to excel...and they have been secretly testing it on the KU campus.

~The Campanile is really a pagan Free Mason scuplture that gives off long wave radiation capable of destroying the concentration of young jocks in minor sports.

~Lawrence, Kansas, was ground zero for a test of a new DOD weapon called a mediocrity bomb that triggers substandard performance among low revenue generators, while leaving the buildings standing.

~The neo Post Modern revival orchestrated by NSA mind control researchers has made minor sport mediocrity an inside joke acting as witty counter point to KU basketball excellence, in hopes of collapsing the Father of All Basketball Programs.

~Turner Gill is actually a Manchurian Coach sent to cripple KU sports by Dr. Tom Osborne as payback for all the basketball beatings KU gave NU.

~The Harry Potter series has bread a generation of minor sport athletes that rely way too much on magic.

~The Transformer franchise without Megan Fox's heat has sapped the minor sports of their desires to man-up, or woman-up.

~A nasty rumor going around the internet that Beyonce is as frigid as Mary Tyler Moore' character in Ordinary People, has caused all minor sports athletes, women included, to lose their rhythms.

~US and Pakistani intel guys have decided to stage the next assassination of Osama bin Laden in Lawrence, Kansas, and minor sport athletes are having trouble adapting to kevlar body armor.

~Rumor has it that on 11-11-11 the New Mediocre World Order will announce that KU minor sports are a test case of making Americans subordinate to mediocre privately owned central banking through fiscal mind control, and that Frazier Hall will fall in its own foot print without being hit by anything.

(Note: all fiction. No malice.)

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KU_cynic 2 years, 9 months ago

Why didn't Keegan -- or any of the posts above -- mention former KU AD Lew Perkins? Surely the current state of KU athletics -- the good, the bad, and the ugly -- is attributable to Lew, not recently hired AD Zenger. Perkins and his cronies were paid top dollar to deliver -- and the results are in.

To be fair, perhaps Perkins help lay the foundations for some future success with some new and updated facilities, but rewards in terms of wins-and-losses have yet to follow. Exhibit A is women's basketball, which has not suffered from underpaying the coach, weather, or bad facilities but has yet to deliver anything but mediocre on-court performance.

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Nicholas Cederlind 2 years, 9 months ago

Honestly, Tom, it's articles like these that simply make no sense. I've never seen someone be so decidedly pro-KU and then so down on KU from week to week throughout the year. This article is reaching, at best - reaching for a reason, any reason, to find a way to be down on KU. In other words, if KU basketball is too good to harp on, let's compare KU sports overall to other schools. And geography? Really? Is there something in the water at TX or KSU? No, but there sure are scholarships, reputations, and other sweet deals for players that are overflowing at those schools beyond their locations. I take back what I said about how this article is reaching, at best. Instead, it's a simple straw man argument. And I love the picture of Pullen at the top. What's his record against us, again? You seem to have left that statistic out...

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rockchalkjjjhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

Just another article by Keegan bashing KU. So now that he's done his damage, it won't be long before he writes yet another 'positive' story about Gary Woodland. What exactly is Keegan's obsession with Woodland anyway? There hasn't been someone this bad on so many levels than there is right now. Just another outsider that has successfully pushed the right buttons to move here and make more money that his true talents demand by bashing an locally revered institution that he has absolutely no ties to. And the sad thing is, there is almost assuredly someone out there with great journalistic talent who has been wishing for a job opportunity like the one Keegan half-a$$es and who is unapologetically KU crimson and blue through and through.

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Ray March 2 years, 9 months ago

Aside from football and men's basketball, none of those other sports count. Nobody cares if the women's softball or volleyball teams win. Nobody cares about baseball.

Silly story...

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stevedaveksu 2 years, 9 months ago

I agree with all the ridiculous butthurt stuff jayhawkcole is saying :thumbsup:

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Cole Hogan 2 years, 9 months ago

"the Wildcats dominated the Jayhawks on the fields and courts of competition during the 2010-2011 school year."

I DEFFINATELY remember a 90-66 Beatdown of K-state at Allen last year, we lost the second time we played them, but im sorry i dont consider that a beatdown, especially considering we made it farther in the Big 12 tourney (won it), and made it father in the NCAA tourney...so KEEGAN, im sorry but i MUST disagree with you on this 'beatdown' thing.

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stevedaveksu 2 years, 9 months ago

we at goemaw.com would like to enter into a trade with kusports.com. we will trade you, straight up, kellis robinette for this keegan character. let me assure you that kellis will be a giant homer and satiate all of your appitites for fluff pieces. please consider this offer.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 9 months ago

I also remember a sidebar article in 1996 in SI entitled "Jayhogs". The article was about KU's remarkable season in sports, finishing in the top ten in Baseball, Basketball and Football. Do not remember the mention of any other sports. Perhaps what Keagan is not saying and really cannot say is that it could appear that KSU has momentum in its athletic department. Maybe, but then these things go through cycles.

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Randy Bombardier 2 years, 9 months ago

I like what you say, AtlJaybird. The college sports landscape is dominated by Football and Men's Basketball. Revenue generators both. The rest of the programs are what football and basketball used to be, real amateur sports. If football and basketball could go backward to that kind of standing I'd be all for it. Will the other sports ever reach their level. Most likely never. Since football and bball cannot return to the past what do we do, find a super athlete that can carry us to the national title game and find some circuitous way of paying him or his dad's church? Cheat as much or more than the next guy? I think it is high time that we require a national exam if an athlete will receive a scholarship at a university. If he cannot pass it he cannot play. We need to tighten up the rules and reach all the way back to high school to where athletes know if they try to make their sport the be-all, end-all without hitting the books they most likely will neither have a pro career or a job after college. Present the real hard truth, that as much as you want to win if you get your priorities out of kilter you will be a loser.

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dynamitehawk 2 years, 9 months ago

Jesse 'The Pimp' Newell!

Are you hearing the masses?!? We need a Newell Post for every field hockey match, baseball game, and for swimming, too... That could get dangerous though. Judging by increasingly inebriated posts (myself included) for the average basketball game (two hours), a baseball game that stretches into extra innings might leave half the state with alcohol poisoning. Never mind. I'm sticking with basketball.

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justinryman 2 years, 9 months ago

Dear, KUspors.com and LJW editors, Directors and owners.

Would you please fire Tom Keegan, as you can see not only from his article today, but his articles in the past two weeks. He has stated the obvious about Thomas Robinson, and totally missed the mark on Brock Berglund with his egotistical opinions.

Perhaps he is trying to get himself fired so he can go work and some free weekly paper that has more ads than it does actually stories in it. He is writing to some of the most educated sports fans in the country, Kansas University fans.

That's right, just as Keegan does so can I us my own opinions to state the obvious. Kansas fans know their school, know their teams and they know their athletes. If Mr. Keegan is writing articles just to get message board postings then he is doing a fine job of it, but if he is writing like a professional journalist, then well he is missing his mark. If he really wants to see how many post he can gather, or how many "hits" one of his columns can accumulate, then maybe he should just keep hitting the refresh button on his desk top. Yes his desk top, as we all know that he needs a desk to write at to hold his coffee and three boxes of doughnuts.

I plead to you to right your ship, get it back on course before your readers and the fans of the University go else where. Tom Keegan is not good for your business, and he will just bring it all down brick by brick, story by story if he is allowed to spew the words he is allowed to print.

A very concerned reader and fan of all KU Athletics,

Justin Ryman

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Keith Hummel 2 years, 9 months ago

I don't think you can have an honest discussion about the value of these other sports without first discussing the value of student athletes in general. Take football and basketball out of the argument for the moment, since they are largely corrupted by money.

While it's unfortunate that so few folks support these other sports, focusing on that alone misses the point. Instead, focus on the qualities of hard-work, commitment, discipline, organization, and team work that is required to be a student athlete, and how that shapes these kids. Look at the vast numbers of kids who spend their formative years motivated by the dream of attaining an athletic scholarship one day, and how that helps them individually and scholastically. Most of these kids won't get "full rides", but might earn a stipend or get their books payed for. I knew allot of student athletes from the track team at KU, most of whom did not have a full ride, but you could not find more dedicated and focused students on campus.

I would argue that college athletics, if done properly, can create graduates who are better trained for the real world and are exceptional ambassadors for the University. I believe these lesser-known student athletes have immeasurable value to the University and to society, and for that reason alone deserve more of our support, not less.

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stevedaveksu 2 years, 9 months ago

the comment section of this website is always amazing. great job everyone.

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kcn18 2 years, 9 months ago

In my opinion the only sports that anyone cares about is MEN's basketball and football. So we got the Basketball part dominated and football both programs can be called a toss up. So do away with all sports besides these 2 and we are guaranteed to be at least 1 - 1 every year. haha Plus we would be making more money instead of wasting it on programs that can't win anything and cost more than they make back.

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ahpersecoachingexperience 2 years, 9 months ago

Losing is one thing, losing when you're getting paid 6 or 7 figures is another.

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FoCoCoHawk 2 years, 9 months ago

It's not whether you when or lose with student-athletes, it's how well one can make an argument for the best Glue Guy (/Gal.)

More disturbing is translating Okie Ball in swimming or gymnastics.

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bobberboy 2 years, 9 months ago

yea but I'd rather go to Lawrence to go shop and live, eat, etc.

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Jim Pendleton 2 years, 9 months ago

While I will say that some of these comments are pretty funny (Jaybate - streaking at a baseball game, really?), it is also somewhat sad that people don't care about most of our programs outside the major sports.

Don't get me wrong, I am probably like most people. Basketball and football are most important to me, always will be. However, as a KU Alum and fan of everything KU Athletics, I expect us to be good in basketball, and at the very least competitive in everything else. with some occasional opportunities for titles. I do not like to see stories in June & July about KU going 1-13 versus KSU, or that we finished last among all other conference schools in overall sports competition.

When we see recent periods where the football team went to bowls three out of four years, and the baseball team made two regionals in a row (won conf tourney one year), and softball team made some regionals (also won conf tourney), and mens golf team made the NCAA's every year for awhile, we should all get to the point where these things should be expected, not hoped for.

Some of the other sports have become bigger deals than what they were even 10 or 15 years ago. The College World Series and Womens Softball Series now both have 64 team fields that include regionals and super-regionals. It sickens me to see some of the other teams from our own league who are becoming players in these events. Nebraska has fallen off in baseball recently, but they made the CWS twice a few years back. Missouri has made two Women's CWS in a row. We used to have some good teams in these sports, there is no excuse for us not being at least competitive here, with the chance to make these tourney's more times than not, and dare to dream, even host a regional some day.

Everyone knows where I stand on football. We need to become a regular player here as well. Yes it will be tough to win the league, especially now playing everyone each year. However, if KSU & MU can build programs to the levels they have in the past, we should be able to do that also. We should expect winning records and bowl qualification every year. Some may not believe that, but we should expect it.

It is easy to say that losing multiple good players from these various teams causes the bad seasons, however if our overall athletic programs are to become what our basketball team always is, we need to learn how to reload not rebuild. That is how all athletic programs like the OU's, Texas, Florida's, and Ohio State's of the world are good every year. They expect to reload.

We must do our part as fans to support all these teams. I realize people aren't going to show up in droves for the smaller sports, but we must be more supportive. Give a rip about what they are doing. Football and baseball games need to be sold out, and with our fans, not several thousand from our opponents. We have to build all this to a higher level and keep it there. Rock Chalk!!

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Dyrk Dugan 2 years, 9 months ago

to KGPHOTO's overall point: You have a good one....but only to a certain extent. if NOBODY cares about these sports, why then do we have teams? why are we granting scholarships? why are we paying an associate AD, a coach, assistant coaches, all the medical staff and everyone else to participate in these sports? if you're going to compete, then compete. i attended KU five years...and i attended no rowing, or tennis events. i didn't have time to go to every sport. since i've been out of school, lots of VB matches, a few baseball games and that's it. (besides being a long time FB season ticket holder.) Just because people aren't lining up on gameday for tickets, doesn't mean we shouldn't care about the results.

a 2nd take: KSU does care about these sports. they put it on their own website to boast about. which is their right. Now, has KU ever had a dominating year vs. KSU? probably many times back in the day. in the modern information age (last 15 years or so) I'm sure not. they've been whipping us a lot lately....football, VB and womens basketball in particular.

which brings me to my point: there is a certain school pride at stake here. we, as Jayhawk fans, like to beat our rival schools. with NU out of the league, we have to outrecruit, play and defeat on a regular basis, three schools to have a chance at league titles or any postseason success: KSU, MU and ISU. this is bottom line, period, period. if we can't line up and regularly beat these schools in all sports, we might as well pack it in. we are a big time college program, and in overall athletics we're one of the worst schools in the country. these are facts. and until we have better years against those three, it won't improve anytime soon.

Do we have a great legacy in sports? of course. a lot more than the grapes for sure...but right now they're better than us. they just are. if posting to their website, their dominating record over us this past school year doesn't fire up some of our coaches and athletes, then not much will. i expect a better year from us in 2011-12.

again, the challenge for Mr. Zenger is daunting. he has to make sure FB gets going...and starts improving and competing year over year...and this must be the demand for ALL sports at KU. mens bball is a given....but no other sport is close right now. Our last AD couldn't/wouldn't do it...he focused on himself and dollars. it's time now to focus on high quality in coaching, recruiting and development. it's time for KU to become a real sports school.

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jjhawkhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

Why is this a bad article? I get the criticism that Keegan's articles lack substance, but this one doesn't. It's bad news but don't kill the messenger. I find it interesting how poorly we're doing. I'm glad our former AD is gone. And I hope our new one can instill a little life into a program that truly needs it. The discussion about all of the schools leaving the Big 12 was embarrassing. No other conference wanted us. Sure the big reason was our football program. But we had nothing to offer other than basketball. We simply don't compete. And we need to do better. Kudos to Keegan for continuing this theme -- the new information he brings to this is KSU's bragging about it. Frankly, that's the most embarrassing part of all of this. We're playing second fiddle to them... How low is that?

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jaybate 2 years, 9 months ago

But I am even happier to be a KU fan. KU is so phenomenally great at basketball it is down right crazy. And we have even had some good years in football. And I don't really care how the kids do in the minor sports, so long as they are working at getting better and doing their best. In fact, if KU were to insist on becoming better in the minor sports, KU would probably have to cut most of the kids in the minor sports programs and go out and get top of the line talent. How good would that be for the kids working and sweating for KU right now? It would be lousy. And for what? So KU can say it has the top athletic program across the board of any Big 12 school? Who cares? Outside of basketball, football, and track, they are just games for kids to play to have fun and learn about themselves.

And I'm not just biased toward those traditionally major sports. I like that certain California schools strive to be great at volleyball, while sucking at everything else.

Every school in every region ought to have something it takes pride in and is good at, and other sports it just provides as a service.

Above all, KU should prioritize academic funding above any minor sport.

Outside of football and basketball, KU and Kansans can benefit much more from being great at carbon nanotube technology research and education than at golf, or tennis.

You want your kids to have jobs and prosperous communities to live in? Help KU pioneer the next killer app.

Minor sports are just games for fun, when you already have The Father of All Basketball programs, as KU has, or when you have a truly storied football program, like OU., or Texas.

For god's sakes, there is no crime in letting Iowa State, or OSU, or KSU, be the best at wrestling, or golf, or whatever.

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Tony Bandle 2 years, 9 months ago

Help me here, are these the ones counted as the non-revenue sports?: Basketball [Women], Baseball [Men], Softball [Women] Track [Men and Women], Gymnastics [Men and Women], Soccer [Men and Women], Golf [Men and Women], Tennis [Men and Women], Swimming and Diving [Men and Women]

Several Solutions: 1] Just drop them, then you can't lose what you don't play. 2] Tell the other schools that at Kansas, they are all revenue-generating sports, so we can't take on anybody. 3] Have all the participants in these sports play in the nude.....that will definitely generate interest, income and attention. 4] Build new venues, hire better coaches, pour more money into these sports.....NNAAAHHHH!!!! That would never work!! :)

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jaybate 2 years, 9 months ago

What is wrong with being bad at all these sports?

Why does KU have to be good at every thing?

Ivy League schools suck at most sports, often all sports, and no one complains a whit about that.

What is so wrong with just being good at basketball.

I was at KU in the 70s and the Floyd Temple lead baseball Hawks were mediocre at best. But I was among a small coterie of hooligans that embraced the baseball team, as the bleacher bumbs of Chicago embraced the then lowly Cubs.

We ordered pizzas delivered to our friends in the dugout.

We shagged a foul ball and signed it and presented the ball to Coach Temple.

One of us streaked the outfield between innings in a game versus OU.

We frankly had almost as much fun in the spring watching bad baseball, as we did watching good basketball in winter.

Shouldn't it be part of a university's function to field some bad teams in order to prepare students to be citizens trained to support both the good and the bad teams they will inevitably encounter as they move about the country.

It has helped me immeasurably to be exposed to the greatness of the KU basketball legacy, so that I can tell the difference between sports teams that know what they are doing and those that are run by persons that will never be able to field a competitive team.

But at the same time it helped me immeasurably to be exposed to mediocre KU baseball, so that I know how to enjoy mediocrity, when that is all that is available.

And in truth, there is a lot more mediocrity at hand as one moves about the country than there is excellence.

I am happy for KSU to have risen to just short of football excellence for a time and for their lesser teams to have peformed well, and their basketball team to reach as much excellence as possible under the stewardship of a coach widely called a prince of !@#$%ing darkness, and another that might be called Bert The Hitman.

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Clarence Haynes 2 years, 9 months ago

One of the big culprits here is the LJW and others covering Kansas Sports. You hardly read a scintilla about KU Athletics other than Basketball, Football, and (to a lesser extent) Baseball. This IMO impacts recruiting the high calibre athletes and attracting first rate coaches that would make us more competitive against K State, the remainder of the Conference, and nationally. Moreover, if we are not aware of which team is succeeding or which one sucks, we might not be as effective in urging the Athletics Department to make he necessary changes that make us competitive. As much as I challenge Dr. Zenger with giving coaches and athletes the facilities and resources to succeed, I challenge the LJW to increase its coverage of non revenue sports even if it means hiring a couple of interns from William Allen White J-School to provide such coverage.

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KGphoto 2 years, 9 months ago

And another thing. How many national titles does K-State have in all those sports combined? I just don't see KU being considered a laughing stock because a few girls can't get their rowing together, or get their serve dialed in. Nationally we are considered a basketball champion! When I travel anywhere, from coast to coast, and I'm wearing my KU logo, I never hear anything about "laughing stock". I generally get a lot of respect for being a Jayhawk. Never once did I hear, "Yeah, but your women's tennis team is terrible.". Gimme a break with this laughing stock business.

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KGphoto 2 years, 9 months ago

Dominated in Rowing again. Damn!!

Seriously this list is way too funny. Have you ever watched a college women's tennis match? It's like watching an elementary school girls tennis match. A friend of mine played at CU, and even she laughed at how lame it was. Nobody goes to those matches except the teams and the moms of the players. The ball is moving so slowly you just want to scream. I'm not hating the players here, but if you are really good at tennis, you don't play in college.

Volleyball? I shoot an occasional event. Nice shorts. Other than that, there are about 100 fans in the seats for the average match at CU. Even at Nebraska most of the fans are friends of the players, and the Huskers are perennial title contenders. It's only watchable for about 30 minutes, then you start getting tired of looking at booties and wondering how much longer this thing is gonna last. The girls are competitive, but there is a reason it's not a revenue sport. At CU about 10x more people show up to watch Cross Country running, and they cheer louder too.

Rowing. Has anybody here, including Keegan, ever been to one of these matches, er games, er whatever you call them? Again, not bagging the competitors, just wondering why I'm supposed to give a poo if we lose to K-State in rowing, other than to be a Cro-Magnon fan, and beat my chest every time I win a coin flip. If they win, great. If they lose, better luck next time. I'm not about to start comparing schools based on the success of those sports.

That accounts for 6 losses, that I would never have known about if it weren't for Keegan including them up for a little Zenger shock factor. So let's carve it down to some numbers that I care a little about. We're still 1-7. But three of those losses were in baseball, and I'm not exactly catching a lot of those games either. Especially since the kids started wearing their caps like skater morons. Even before that, I honestly preferred watching the Little League World Series to the college one.

Now we're 1-4 in sports I pay any real attention to. We've already discussed, ad nauseam, the Bonnie factor. And I also read on somebodies post that Zenger couldn't fire anybody in his first year. So there isn't much he can do for now.

That brings us to 1-2. I don't love it, but TG gets a few years, like it or not persey. And the fact that we have gone about 50-2 against them in basketball since the 80's, is somehow keeping me from crying for a new coach, and or worrying about 1-13.

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Dickless Head 2 years, 9 months ago

What a load of crap this whole thing is.

NO ONE CARES about anything except basketball and football. Who gives a crap about who won the baseball game? Just the baseball players, staff, and relatives/friends of the athletes. That's it. Same goes for every other sport outside of basketball and football.

We still lost 1-2 in those meetings. We shouldn't have lost to the purple pu$$ies in the Dumb, and the football loss is flat out unacceptable to me. Although I know the majority of KU fans are happy about that game because we had good kids on the field and a nice guy as a coach.

This year, I expect to win all 3 of the meetings that count. We get KSUck in Lawrence again. Turner needs to quit phucking around and coach. Forget swagger. Forget faith. Forget believing. Get pi$$ed and go out there and kick their a$$es.

Basketball will dominate like the olden days of 3 years ago. I expect KU to go 3-0 this year in the only records that people give a $hit about.

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nuleafjhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

What's REALLY funny emaw (Effeminate Men - Amazon Women) is the fact that you come on here and puff out your tiny little hairless chest bragging about football. I'm sure you personally have had much to do with that and I congratulate you! That's pretty impressive for a 12 year old.

Even funnier than that is the fact that you have so little self esteem that you feel the need to go to another school's website and post your unwanted comments.

I'm pretty sure that most of the regular KU fans here don't go to other school's sites except maybe to check schedules or look up a few statistics because, when it comes to their fans - well - we just don't care.

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gorilla10 2 years, 9 months ago

yeah, but we won a conference championship!!!

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phog1004 2 years, 9 months ago

lol...gotta love KSU fans trolling KUsports.com......"hey, hey guys....Hey, Big Brother is talking about us. Hey Look at me guys!!"

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BABBOY 2 years, 9 months ago

Hey message board moran ahpersecoachingexperience.

I am wondering why you say Zenger would be proud that his Wildcats are beating KU. Zenger is the AD of KU. You are idiot. So is everyone else that lives on those message boards. I used to read those lame things but realized they were just whack offs like you that did not know what they were talking about.

The only stat that mattered to me was what happened on 10-14-10. I love football and laughed by backside off for week after that game. KSU has one of the worst defenses in the Nation and touchdown KU scored was a meaningless gift. KSU had a decent offense and could have scored 2 or 3 more touchdowns if they had wanted to do so.

But, most pansies KU fans would not know that because they left in the first quarter of the game to go party on Mass street. Wimps.....

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emaw 2 years, 9 months ago

So funny to read some of the comment this morning. Get mad.....kill the messenger! Go State! Can't wait to watch the boys stomp you in football again this year.

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IrishDaddy 2 years, 9 months ago

OUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a FRICKIN Slap Down by theBig Guy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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swunruhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

LJW is just.. telling it like it is... and it is no fun seeing this information in print. Something needs to change. We can't live off the the 2008 Orange Bowl and NCAA BB championships any longer.

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newmedia 2 years, 9 months ago

As sad as it may be I don't see it changing anytime soon. Can't wait for this falls annual in-state football beat down. At least only about 90 days until Oct 15th.

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jhox 2 years, 9 months ago

A lot of people are shooting the messenger here. This needed to be heard. If we're going to pay these non-revenue sports coaches hundreds or thousands of dollars (or even millions of dollars as in Bonnie's case), then they need to answer for their poor performance.

It's too soon for Zenger to clean house, having just gotten here, but he better put these lazy coaches on notice that they're on a short leash from here forward.

Just win, Baby.

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yates33333 2 years, 9 months ago

This article is typical LJW "bullsh*t."

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nuleafjhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

Didn't we all just have this argument a couple of weeks ago? Maybe we should just let the scabs heal. I'm referring to the article, by the way, not the posters.

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phoggydrive 2 years, 9 months ago

It was one year. I'll start to worry if it becomes a trend.

Must be the dog days of summer if we have to stretch this into an article.

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pnye 2 years, 9 months ago

Sometimes (all the time), I feel like I could write more insightful news stories about KU athletics than Tom Keegan....free of charge.

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Janet Scott 2 years, 9 months ago

Zenger should get a year on Mt. Oread before he begins to fire the losers who head the many disgraceful Jayhawk athletic programs. So far, Zenger has said very little. But come next spring he must stand forward as a leader and take the necessary actions to restore KU respectability, or he too should be fired. I have closely followed KU athletics for over 50 years, and I must say KU athletic "prowess" has never been this bad. Like it or not, KU is an athletic laughingstock nationally (less basketball, of course).

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waywardJay 2 years, 9 months ago

Seriously, Is the best the Journal world can hope for is this for it's Sports Editor.....

I've something doesn't change soon, and I'm going to start getting my information from Espn.

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100 2 years, 9 months ago

The part the "other" editors at the LJW cut out of this "piece":

"......And in the sports that matter, KU went 1-2 against the the team 75 miles to the west. Not something to write home to your mom in Syracuse about (Orange Orange Orange, Gooo Orange!!!!), but certainly not nearly as deceptive as me throwing 13 rocks across the pond to your one. .......And in further sporting news, KU also averaged approximately 1-1 against all other big 12 teams in the sports that matter, including a rebuilding year in football with a new coach & what was supposed to be a rebuilding year in basketball. But who am I to report these types of things, theres so many $donuts$ to be made in NCAA archery, & furthermore, & more importantly, I'm too busy to report anything more to you about your one big yellow gooey booger that won an ESPY, you see I'm too busy enjoying these thirteen donut holes too much to bother typing this report anymore!"

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Jeeveshawk 2 years, 9 months ago

If you are trying to show that KSU has superior athletics to us, a picture of Jacob Pullen (KStates star basketball player) is not best to represent that. On top of that KU and KU fans obviously put 99% of their sports pride in to basketball (it might be 60-40 of 50-50 between bball and football if our football program could lift its ass off the ground) so to us we beat K-State overall (as we beat them by 8 more points than they beat us). So from a KU sports fans perspective we have it on them 99 to 1.

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kusportsdotcom 2 years, 9 months ago

some of us care. this is embarrassing. we need to overhaul our "non-revenue" sports and become somewhat competitive again. last in the big 12 director's cup and 1-13 against k-state are unacceptable. all true jayhawk fans should have higher standards.

basketball will always be fine. football will maybe be ok, depending on whether gill can build his own team. if not, he's gotta go. other sports, like baseball, volleyball, women's basketball to name a few, need to be under more scrutiny. baseball hasn't been competitive for a long time; it's time price leaves. we all know that bonnie has overstayed her welcome. and free state's or LHS's volleyball coach would provide more success than bechard. how many years since you made the tournament ray?

On with 2011 onlylookin2score? Basketball will be good, football will be mediocre at best, and no other sports are making moves to improve. i'm tired of being the laughing stock of the big 12.

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onlylookin2score 2 years, 9 months ago

And yet no one here cares. On with 2011. Thanks.

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ahpersecoachingexperience 2 years, 9 months ago

Please...zenger is proud that his wildcats are beating the hawks. All he has done is sit quietly and showed no actions other than signing a million dollar check to bonnie.

I say fire everyone and let hcbs coach everything.

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