Tuesday, January 4, 2011

Tyrel Reed emerges as ‘face’ of KU basketball team

Kansas guard Tyrel Reed helps to lead a group of kids through the fundamentals of how to properly execute a left-handed layup during the Holiday Hoops Clinic on Friday, Dec. 31, 2010, at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas guard Tyrel Reed helps to lead a group of kids through the fundamentals of how to properly execute a left-handed layup during the Holiday Hoops Clinic on Friday, Dec. 31, 2010, at Allen Fieldhouse.


Just one Kansas University men’s basketball player has started all 13 games this season.

That person is senior combo guard Tyrel Reed, who takes a 9.1 scoring, 2.8 rebounding average into Wednesday’s 7 p.m. home game against UMKC.

“One thing that has happened that is very positive for us ... I think Tyrel Reed has emerged as the face of our program,” KU coach Bill Self said on Monday’s Hawk Talk radio show.

“Of course, he is a great role model. I think he has the genuine respect of everybody of how hard he tries and what he’s done. Brady, too,” Self added of fellow senior/fellow Kansan Brady Morningstar, who has started nine games and come off the bench in four.

“Tyrel is playing well. The whole thing about Tyrel that’s impressive ... we’ve always counted on him to be a shot-maker for us. He’s not made shots like the past, but is still playing very well.”

The 6-foot-3 Reed, who has 15 rebounds in KU’s last three games, has made 40.9 percent of his shots, 33.3 percent of his threes.

Recruiting: Ben McLemore, a 6-5 senior guard from Oak Hill Academy in Mouth of Wilson, Va., who attended Sunday’s KU-Miami game, likely will attend another KU game this season before choosing either KU or Missouri, his former AAU coach tells

“Ben wants to see what it’s like the actual day of a game, pre-game and shoot-around, so we’re planning to return,” Darius Cobb of the St. Louis Majestics said.

“Ben isn’t going to make a quick decision now that he's returned home from Kansas,” Cobb added. “It’s a two-horse race. For Ben, it's just a matter of gathering all the information about each school and making an informed decision.”

Cobb said McLemore loved it when the KU fans chanted, “We Want Ben.”

“To hear 4,000 to 5,000 people calling your name and saying they want you to attend their school, what kid wouldn't enjoy that type of attention? Ben didn't know whether to shake, wave his hand, tip his hat or whatever,” Cobb said.

DeAndre Daniels, 6-9 senior from IMG Academies in Bradenton, Fla., is expected to choose either KU, Kentucky or Texas any day now.


Chris Shaw 7 years, 5 months ago

Lot's of rumors going on about Daniels at the moment. You may want to read these two threads to get caught up.

1) The latter part of this thread covers most of the rumors

2) Mascott addresses the rumors in this thread

Mike Bratisax 7 years, 5 months ago

Interesting gossip. Hope it's true but will wait 'till it's official. I guess Ben would go to Mizzou where he could avoid competition.

KEITHMILES05 7 years, 5 months ago

How in the hell can it be he has to make an "informed" decision when he's been to KU numerous times and has always wanted to go to KU? He and/or his camp has been saying for many weeks he's ready to make a decision but now he's not going make a "quick" decision? Too funny! It's pretty obvious what is going on with everybody steering him another direction compared to where he wishes to go.

Sf Boggsz 7 years, 5 months ago

Ben left Kansas saying to anyone who had a pen, he wanted to go home and speak with his family and make a decision this week. His former AAU coach clearly has a different agenda (Mizzou pipeline?) is saying something clearly different than what Ben is saying in the press.

Darrius Cobb is saying he needs to come back and "experience" a game day atmosphere. How many times has Ben already been to Allen and with the team to experience game day atmosphere?

Good grief. Enough of these handlers and let the kid make his decision.

Craig Lang 7 years, 5 months ago

If he needs to attend KU games throughout the season to make his decision, that's fine, as long as it helps him decide that KU is the right fit for him.

Michael Pannacciulli 7 years, 5 months ago

Hey at least our fans did their part! Way to go hawks!!!!!! That may have been the cherry on top hearing the fans root for him. Here's to hoping Ben is a Jayhawk real soon!!!!

Mike Bratisax 7 years, 5 months ago

Honestly..we all know the talent and we all know he has a good shot at moving directly to a starting job..BUT do we need someone who cannot make his own decision?

Sure he has pressure from all sides, but not near the pressure he will feel playing against Mizzou at Colombia.

Give me Daniels and move on,

hawk316 7 years, 5 months ago

This is a big decision. No reason to rush it. We're impatient because we want Ben to hurry and announce that he'll be a jayhawk, but good things are worth waiting for. I think Mr. McLemore will be a very good thing for KU basketball. Let's all try to relax and give him the space he needs.

Mike Bratisax 7 years, 5 months ago

"All good things are worth waiting for..."

Maybe, although that sounds like a slogan and not a plan. Seems the vast majority of players have already made their decisions with or without mom's permission.

What is he waiting for? What is going to change that will finally help make his decision?

Brian Conrad 7 years, 5 months ago

wish you would just copy and paste.. not all of us can afford shiver

KEITHMILES05 7 years, 5 months ago

LOL. You are so true. Seems there are alot of lazy people out there and want everything done for them.

JacquesMerde 7 years, 5 months ago

KUShaw is correct, it is free, but it's not worth the money. What a waste of time. These comments are better informed and know more than the bloggers on Shiver, which makes you shiver. Of course, some people post at both places so that cancels out the difference.

KU1992 7 years, 5 months ago

Not true. TheShiver is one of the most respected recruiting websites for any school. Matt is one of the most reliable insiders there is.

To suggest this message board is more informed is absolutely absurd. Half the people on here are trolls.

kcphantom 7 years, 5 months ago

I almost feel like there's some sort of "cam-newton-ish" thing going on. You are being offered a scholarship to one of the nations all-time elite programs or one of the 2nd/3rd tier programs.

What more information is there to consider?

Selbyville 7 years, 5 months ago

His entire family wants him to go to Mizzou, which is much closer to his relatives than Lawrence. Definitely nothing "cam-newton-ish"

Karen Mansfield-Stewart 7 years, 5 months ago

Starting to get a bad vibe about this kid now. Another article had him quoting that he's going to try to make a decision this week. I guess this is his AAU coach though not him... Just seems like if you can't decide now its just an excuse for something else going on.

rockchalk80 7 years, 5 months ago

He's decided... it's mom.
Ben has a dream, mom should encourage him to live his dream, regardless of where that takes him... Personally, if the situation was reversed and Ben didn't want to come, but mom wanted KU v. Mizzou... I would still feel the same.

RockChalk26 7 years, 5 months ago

I think he is looking to get as many free KU games as possible :) Do you blame him? Those are some sweet tickets!

nicka 7 years, 5 months ago

Is this the first time y'all have followed the recruitment of elite high school basketball players? You guys act like it some big conspiracy. Did we learn nothing from xavier? If he's truly a jayhawk, then he'll bring his game to ku when its all said and done.

JacquesMerde 7 years, 5 months ago

This kid is a first rate player. We sure could use him next year and maybe longer. But like you I sure feel frustrated and wonder if they are angling for $$$$.

nicka 7 years, 5 months ago

Also, i'm pretty sure that selby is the face of the program right's SHOWTIME!!

rockchalk80 7 years, 5 months ago

This comment isn't a slam on Reed... but if he is the face of the program, then it is wide open for a more charismatic leader that teammates could rally around as the "go-to" guy ... Selby has that opportunity...

Kurt Eskilson 7 years, 5 months ago

Self-coached teams aren't about showtime. They're about hard-nosed competitiveness and giving the game everything you've got on both ends of the court – whether your shot is dropping that game or not.

Thomas Michaud 7 years, 5 months ago

Agreed ... and it's nice that Reed has been here for four years. Having someone be a part of a program all four years helps to establish you as "the face" (much like Danny ... but his "face" goes beyond one coaching era)... A one-and-done can be a sexy media sell, but it makes you UK (as they are currently run) if you want to make them the "face" (what a program's character is about). Kid needs to have at least three years under his belt (a-la-Pierce and Mario Chalmers (in the BS era)) to be considered--two only puts you at the level of a Brandon Rush (but it helps he was part of a championship team).

Jonathan Allison 7 years, 5 months ago

Rush played 3 years. He was going to go pro after two till he tore his ACL

LAJayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Chalmers and Rush were in the same class and played 3 years. Perhaps you are thinking of Julian Wright?

LAJayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

I totally agree. I was going to make that point as well, but just let it go.

Jonathan Allison 7 years, 5 months ago

Hopefully Reed gets his shot clicking again. It seems like pure shooters like himself can be the most streaky shooters on the team. Ray Allen fr example. He can go cold as ice for long stretches, and then come back and nail 10 in a row.

How sweet would it be to have Reed and Selby both hitting near 50% from three point land?

I like Coach Self's comment on how positive it is that Reed is the "face of the program" I wonder though if that means that he is the leader in the locker room?

I also think I need to hear the context of the question to see why Coach Self threw Brady a plug, too. Maybe Coach is trying to rebuild Brady's confidence.

LAJayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Shooting 50% from 3 is equivalent of shooting 75% from 2. If BOTH of those guys were hitting 50% we would blow everybody out by about 1000 points (especially if Marcus continues to shoot 60% from the field and 45% from 3)....

So, yeah, it would be pretty sweet.

Mike Bratisax 7 years, 5 months ago

Looked good against mid-levels..maybe his confidence is back. His fundamentals are rock solid.

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago


I guess the Kansas & Missouri BB programs are so close in quality, that it comes down to whoever has the best pre-game walk-through?

What a joke.

DeAndre is going to commit to KU and Ben will end up elsewhere.

Robert Brock 7 years, 5 months ago

I think you have it all wrong: Ben to KU; Daniels re-commits to Baja Oklahoma.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Texas = Baja Oklahoma!

Rack it.

Posting hall of fame.

I will never call the university in Austin anything else again! Maybe not even the state itself.

You have empowered all non-Texans, Brock. Americans have long needed a proper term for that bunch. Baja Oklahoma! Geez, it is perfect.

I will contact the Nobel people to see if you could be considered for a Peace Prize for this eloquent contribution to humanity.

Rock Chalk!

Gary Wirsig 7 years, 5 months ago

No reply to your comment, Blown - I'd forgotten about the Cal game until I saw your avatar again - hilarious all over again! As funny as the first time I saw it.

bradynsdad 7 years, 5 months ago

Here is my thought. If you are looking at two programs and you are one of the elite players in the country, and will probably end up in the draft in a year or two, then think about this. The first program runs a high low offense that prepares you for the NBA. The program also turns out pros year after year. The other program runs a full court press which requires alot of stamina but no strength training leaving you small for the pros. This other program rarely has anyone go pro to boot. Now aside from conference championships and national titles I still think I would trust the guy who knows how to create NBA players. Just my opinion, hope it wasn't too hard to understand.

Woody Cragg 7 years, 5 months ago

Great observation. And hopefully these kids can firgure out they should get some education for life AFTER basketball.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago


Read this post!

This is all ye know and all ye need to know about this issue.

Greg Lux 7 years, 5 months ago

Make it 16,000+ fan saying "We Want Ben" will guarantee a commitment. As coach would say " Step it up a notch "

Rock Chalk

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago

I was confused by this too....why were there only 4,000 people chanting?

Dean Huggins 7 years, 5 months ago

Perhaps his AAU coach was confused and was thinking of a game at Missery where 4,000 is a generous estimate.

waywardJay 7 years, 5 months ago

IF that was te case... they woul dhave been saying " We want Gin."

mi_familia 7 years, 5 months ago

I'm assuming 4,000 to 5,000 students were chanting his name. If you were at the games during Selby's suspension, you would hear the students chanting "We Want Selby!" The entire crowd was not chanting it since everyone knew that it wasn't happening. The students and some non-students like to get recruits pumped, but not all non-students follow recruiting like we do.

Hawkin8r 7 years, 5 months ago

FYI - I was at the game and it was a typical "holiday" crowd (lots of non-students in the student sections and one-timers who got tickets to a "lesser game"). The chant started very late in the game after a lot of the "holiday gamers" had left. And it was mainly the student section near the KU bench chanting. So the stands were only 1/2 to 3/4 full at the time and not everyone was in on what they were chanting about, so they didn't all join in. So his estimate was pretty darn good.

LAJayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

This type of chanting almost always starts and ends with the student section. If any of you in the area can get the Williams Fund donors to chime in, this kid will be a shoe-in.

Imagine 10,000 people chanting your name.......

duanep5ku 7 years, 5 months ago

Wow, another visit is needed by Ben why? How many times have you already visited Kansas?What's going on here. I mean Ben you pretty much recruited KU first, hoping for a scholarship offer to come to Kansas. KU offered you the scholarship you claimed you wanted for a long time,So why the holdup. I mean please just make a decision soon, if you want to come here why wait to give your word. Ben the longer you drag this recruitment out the worse it we be for you in the long run because you can't make everyone happy,either MU or KU will be upset with your decision. I also get you may be getting presure to stay at MU but if that's the only reason and you do have to go to MU just make a decision soon and get it over with.

This scenario is strange at best for most Kansas fans to grasp because if it's only KU or MU right now that you will choose from then Ben you certainly did not need to bring up Kansas as your dream school to be recruited by Missouri. I believe MU had offered you the scholarship way before KU did and another frustrating aspect to deal with is all the information about this keeps coming from his coaches handling the out going info on him. Kansas posters on here who know don't you usually go to teams practice when you visit? and how many times has Ben already been to Kansas or late night. I would like to add one more thing,I'm sure glad that I am not in charge of recruiting the high school kids nowadays or my face might have the same look as BlownJays avatar does at times.

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago

Daniels just took Mac's minutes anyway.

They don't play the same position, but DD will be a semester & summer up on Ben.....

WilburNether 7 years, 5 months ago

Get real, Bill. "Great" role models are not arrested for drunken driving on the Interstate in the wee hours of the morning. It is utterly disgusting that Self would say that.

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago

Oh give him a break, that was like 10 years ago.

USAF_J_Hawk 7 years, 5 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Brianna Zaleski 7 years, 5 months ago

So you can't be a role model if you've made a misteak? Anybody who does the right thing and is living their life the right way, is a role model. Even if you had to experience some bumps in the road in order to get you on the right path, it is all about the path you are on. We are fallable creatures by nature, meaning that we are bound to screw up from time to time. But we are also rational creatures by nature, meaning that we can learn from our misteaks and do right. It is never too late to start doing the right thing

Tuskin 7 years, 5 months ago

Too true. Sometimes I have to eat my misteaks.

JayhawkBigXII 7 years, 5 months ago

Misteaks are great served medium rare, with a little crow on the side...

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago


"Even if you had to experience some bumps in the road in order to get you on the right path, it is all about the path you are on. We are fallable creatures by nature, meaning that we are bound to screw up from time to time. But we are also rational creatures by nature, meaning that we can learn from our misteaks and do right. It is never too late to start doing the right thing."

Who said this?

Thank you for calling this quote to our attention.

These are some of the clearest, wisest and most inspiring words I have read.

I would like them inscribed on a marble panel and mounted on a monument in front of the field house for all who enter there to pass by.

I would like these words to be there for all students of KU, especially, for that period of a person's life can seem so difficult and error filled at times, but then all stages of a person's life can seem that way at times.

Thanks again for calling these words to my attention.

Steve Brown 7 years, 5 months ago

I have enjoyed my life's successes yet have grown with my mistakes and errors and misteps.

Mike Bratisax 7 years, 5 months ago

I agree w/everything, but role models usually avoid the mistakes that the rest of us seem to make from time to time.

JHawk241 7 years, 5 months ago

It absolutely has to do with McLemore's AAU coach and his ties to Misery. If you get a chance read George Dohrmann's book "Play Their Hearts Out". It documents the seedy world that is AAU basketball. Basically these AAU coaches get kick backs and sponsorships for funnelling players to certain schools. I'm not certain of it, but I would bet anything McLemore's AAU team is sponsored by the same shoe company as MU's.

Hank Cross 7 years, 5 months ago

Tyrel, I get. But, what has Brady done to merit being called a role model? I'm sure he's a nice kid and works hard, but I'm sure the same could be said for rest of the team. And Brady's defenders wonder how we can claim that Brady is Self's pet. By any objective standard, Brady's performance does not merit his minutes.

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago

is it odd that this is the only media outlet reporting this? i could not find it on any other websitios.

jhwkwayoflife 7 years, 5 months ago

Actually is reporting that he is committing to KU today as well

LAJayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Big, big, big win if that report is true....

Steve Brown 7 years, 5 months ago

any of you folks old enought to recall Jeff Gueldner, not the most talented on that team yet one big reason why it had success. I like Brady a lot, don't want him to get 40 minutes, but neither do I want SuperFrosh to get 40 either. The beauty of BBall is a team is made of many parts not all the parts have the same function. The hand is no less a part of the body than the eye, yet the hand does not see. I like our parts I like coach melding them into a unit and I appreciate both the most skilled as well as the most athletic as I do the talend + experienced. On average a kid in the program 3-4 years makes less mistakes than before and gets a bit more playing time. C'om people enjoy the ride the whole ride.

Ian Brown 7 years, 5 months ago

Very well put, Lebowski. Still, don't expect the Brady "attackers" to accept or understand your objective, rational perspective. As you stated, most of the Brady attackers are NOT being objective. With that said, even if Brady was putting up better numbers--let's say numbers similar to what Tyrel is putting up--they still would not be satisfied.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Oh, geez, it is nice to read someone who puts things in perspective.

Leeb, you are on a roll today.

Brady is in a global slump in his game, but can still help even in his slump, filling 15-18 minutes, while the younger guys are developing. And he will come out of this slump. Self has had him the toughening box for a few games, and when that ends, as when it ended with Tyshawn last season, his performance will spike and he will play better. And it is a given with a freshman like Selby, or like Henry last season, they will have frequent funks, amidst the stellar performances that will require spells on the bench to rest, reorient themselves, and return to action. If Brady were only to fulfill this limited role with sound floor play, he would be a big help. But he will shoot better, and he will play better, regardless of how much, or how little he plays in coming games. Self throwing Brady a bone in this interview--that of being a good role model for his teammates--is the first sign of a thaw in Self's public attitude toward Brady for a couple weeks. It does not mean he is letting Brady out of the toughening box yet, but it signals he still respects Brady, and a coach's respect is very important to any player. Brady is in the toughening box partly for his play, for sure, but also for team building. Each season, Self selects, one, or a few guys, usually players who he has treated very well in the past, to be his scapegoats. These scapegoats are, frankly, punished more harshly than they deserve. The effect over a period of weeks on the players teammates is for the team to grow resentful of Self's unfair treatment of that player--to take that player into their hearts--to turn somewhat on the coach and to bond as more of a team than before. Since Self does this each year, I suspect that it is his way of forcing a team--one that starts out highly dependent on his instruction and support to find a way to win--to do the group version of individuation--to need him less--to grow more confident that they are the one that must go out and do it together, not Self. They should listen to the coach, but Self is forcing them off him as a crutch and onto themselves, as their own intact, self-sufficient fighting unit. Before you see one of your teammates, whom you know to be a basically decent person, unfairly treated for an extended period of time, has a tendency to break down cliques on teams that form naturally, but which are counter productive to a team reaching its fullest potential. No matter how many times I see Self do this, no matter how much I understand the dynamics of it, it still pains me considerably to watch. It is a dangerous, powerful tool in group dynamics that should only be wielded by one who is highly skillful and who has enormous compassion and love for his players, and who knows how to walk the line of enough, but never too much. It toughens the individual, and it fuses a team, but it is very, very cruel on some levels.

Tuskin 7 years, 5 months ago

Scapegoats? Respectully disagree, Jaybate. Coach gets on players who need to be gotten on. Marcus and Markeiff have gotten their fair share, and they themselves admit that tape shows they haven't always given their all. Coach doesn't get on the worst players - he gets on the players that aren't playing to their potential. And the farther from their potential he senses they're playing, the more focused his criticism will be, until it's as sharp as a scalpel in a surgeon's hands. It would be cruel to deny the players this surgery, this removal of dead tissue. It would be cruel to send the players out into the world without having learned discipline. But when Coach removes the tumor of lethargy or apathy from a player, sure we can acknowledge the pain, but let's rejoice at the outcome.

The doctor is in!

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago

Lewbowski: It is interesting that you suggest that you "defend Brady because you are objective." The converse would be that those that don't defend Brady are not objective. And you say "Self sees these things. Many KU fans see these things. The people who don't I believe simply aren't looking for them. If someone is being objective, I can respect an opinion on almost anything. I don't believe most of the Brady "attackers" are being objective."

The whole premise of your statements are absolutely comical and flawed. Simply because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are not being objective (or fair). And simply because someone sees the game differently than you doesn't mean they aren't being objective. And simply because some points to numbers as part (emphasize "as part") of the argument doesn't mean they aren't being objective.

What I have found to be true in my life is that those who are most unsure about their position resort to demeaning the other side's position name calling, by questioning motives, or by insults; it is easier to demean one's position by saying they are "attacking" or "hating; and it easier to claim someone is irrational (the reference to not being objective) ... all as opposed to addessing the arguments.

I would suggest that you could make your points on Brady .. your affirmative arguments, without essentially calling those that have a different opinion ("most Brady attackers" is what you said) idiots.

Of course, one could argue that those supporting Morninstar's larger role on this team aren't being objective because they ignore the objective evidence (i.e., the numbers), as opposed to relying upon mushy concepts (the subjective) like "glue", etc. But that's for a different post.

JayDocMD 7 years, 5 months ago

5 paragraphs on his "flawed" reasoning but not one concrete thought or rebuttal to the 3 clearly outlined points Lebowski made - just a vague reference to "the numbers" and an opposition to glue.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago

My point was not to rebut the premise, but to point out his insults to those that may disagree. I have covered this subject area multiple times; may have do so again.

hawksfan08 7 years, 5 months ago

I'll post this one more time and then I give up. If you don't want to listen to the stats, don't ask for them. And for the record, I think Brady should be getting 15 a game. However, he has played really bad lately.

If you don't have espn insider, Brady is rated at 87 in the big 12 with a PER 12.07. 15 is defined as the average player. Tyrel is the next lowest regular KU player at 58 with a PER of 15.65. Releford is 31, EJ is 35, Tyshawn is 53, and Markieff, Trob and Marcus are 1, 2, 3 overall. These are tempo adjusted statistics taking into account all stats, including TO's, steals, blocks etc. Selby hasn't played enough to qualify.

Another link I've posted before

I personally like the roland rating which shows the team as +10, +8, and +18 with Brady OFF the floor over the last 3 games respectively and only 2 games all season where the team is better with him on the floor. Or how about his turnover % of 30.3%, far and above his previous season of 22%? Maybe his career low 3 pt %? His stats are down across the board, the exception being steals. Feel free to delve thru all the players stats though. It's a great site.

As for Daniels, that is indeed fantastic news if true.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago

I know you didn't, in fact, call anyone an idiot. That's why I didn't quote it. But that's your implication, right? That we are so freaking stupid we can't see what you see.

Do this .. answer the questions you posed. I'm curious as to the answer to your questions. I really do want to know. See, you ask the questions, suggest I don't have the answer .. but guess what, you don't have the answer. That doesn't prove anything. Please tell me you have the answer. Please tell me you're not hanging this man's career on on a question you can't answer. Please tell me you you have something more .. than .. mushy .. glue.

I have the last couple games still on my DVR. I'll go back and look again. I saw four turnovers, poor defense, and inconsistent play vs. Miami. Tell me the highlights. I saw a couple sweet passes vs. UTA. Tell me more highlights.

I have watched, rewatched. I would love the guy to be a player. I watched TT last season. Was completely fed up. I watched objectively. Then this season, I watched objectively. And guess what, my opinion changed with what I saw (notwithstanding the USC/Cal regression). I happily hope for Brady to fulfill the Brady-lover's faith.

A reminder .. please answer the questions you posed, or they are idle chatter.

hawksfan08 7 years, 5 months ago

One last thing. Advanced statistics such as PER (Player Efficiency Rating) are specifically designed to account for everything that goes on on the basketball court, thus measuring what you say cannot be measured. And by any statistical system, Elijah and Travis have outperformed Brady, and the team is better with him off the floor. THAT is why you see posters complaining about Brady's minutes. I think he can still be a valuable 15 minute guy, but he clearly wasn't even that the last few games.

I eagerly await your objective response :)

jayhawktalk 7 years, 5 months ago

This seems to have moved from the same tired discussion about Brady, to being more about personal egos and hurt feelers...

That said, I can't resist putting something in here, since checking out the site in question, suggested by hawksfan08 - it really is an interesting site, if for no other purpose than to fuel these kinds of discussions. PER is in no way a measure of the contribution of a single player to the TEAM; it is a statistical rating system intended to measure the individual player's performance. +/- measures the TEAM's relative [to the opposing team's] performance while the player is and/or is not on the floor. Someone please correct me, if I am mistaken. I won't take it personally.

I'll preface this by saying that I am glad to see EJ and Releford playing more, and Brady has looked a little out of sorts lately, and cannot hit the broad side of a barn from the field, most of the time - I doubt it has anything to do with jumping forward on a jump shot, but more the hitch in his shot... I digress.

On aforementioned site, you can compare players +/-, Roland ratings (I did not know this existed, before this fantastic discussion), etc. to one another (pretty cool). Only Reed has a higher average +/- than Brady, 13.6 to 12.1, when comparing Morningstar, Reed, EJ, Releford, and even the Assassin, Selby. Yes, I know Selby is a freshman and only played a few games, and I appreciate it is not a fair comparison in his case; I only included him for giggles.

Since a google search tells me that the Roland rating takes into account both the +/- minutes the player is ON the court, AND the +/- minutes a player is NOT on the court, it is not a huge shock that Reed also bests Morningstar here, 90 vs 66. What may be interesting to some, though, is the Roland ratings for the others in the comparison, EJ (-57), Releford (-62), and the thrown-in-for-fun Selby (-7). As a disclaimer, statistically speaking, EJ and Releford, having played significantly fewer minutes, may not allow for a valid (as the term is used in statistics for studies) comparison.

...Anyway, glad to see EJ and Releford playing more minutes. Too bad more minutes for them means less minutes for someone else, but I'm having fun watching. I would say, whether inclined to criticize (or call for fewer minutes) Brady on a frequent to semi-frequent basis, or those like me that are more inclined to be sympathetic and supportive, all our opinions that are Brady-specific are probably more founded on an emotional response than quantifiable evidence. I know I do not lean on statistics when I wish for him to do well in a game, nor do I fall back on statistics when I find it disappointing that people find the need to incessantly criticize or repeatedly call for fewer minutes for him in this forum; there's really no point. It just is what it is... Can't we all just get along?

Hank Cross 7 years, 5 months ago

How's this for being objective: 7- count'em -7 freaking double digit scoring games in his whole career - and none this year. But, as Brady's defender's say, 'he the best at feeding the post.' Since KU offense is supposed to go through the bigs, we should see him with many assists. Instead we see 1 game of 10 assists (TX A&M CC - that powerhouse), 1 game of 4 (UCLA), the rest of them are 2s and 1s with one zero assist game, CSU.

The funniest part of Lebowski's post is that it is Brady's defenders that are being objective, then he writes: "not being so selfish that you have to log points, rebounds or assists.. ." In other words - 'Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?' This is an admission that Brady isn't performing according the to accepted objective standards that measure productivity in BB,

Ask person employed in the public sector in a non-union job if they would feel their job was safe if they went in for their performance review and told their boss -'Yes, its true that by any objective standards, my performance barely meets expectations, and yes, there are people who would probably do better in my job if given the opportunity, but, hey - I'm glue.'

Theutus 7 years, 5 months ago

lol. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"... That one just about had me losing my coffee.

ABeesus 7 years, 5 months ago

He doesn't need to visit either school again, it's likely for other reasons. Many reasons he might want to take all the visits he can at the two schools.

Lots of pretty girls at both. Who knows what perks potential recruits get when they visit? Lots of things the NCAA never mentions, never monitors, that many would wish for...

This is big-time biz. Almost impossible to calculate the potential $ involved for the University w/a top program.

Jonathan Allison 7 years, 5 months ago

can anyone with access to Jayhawk Slant give a "cliff's notes" version of the Deandre Daniels story?

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Not as long as aliases continue to frame it Brady vs. Anti-Brady.

It is crucial to stop talking in terms of Brady vs. Anti-Brady and simply say:

a) the team produces more efficiently and effectively during the minutes Brady plays than the minutes when he does not; and

b) Brady's mired in a slump right now that is causing Self to play him less; and

c) when Brady comes out of the slump, if those playing more while he is in his slump do not get sharply better, Brady will then return to playing quite a bit more.

This assessment is neither Brady, nor anti-Brady, merely mastering the obvious.

Discourse fell victim to the Brady vs. Anti-Brady framing quite some time ago, when the discourse was reduced to ideology.

It is an old technique of ideologues in argument. It is false framing. It as ensnared USA political discourse for nearly three decades.

One side uses ideological argument to divide and conquer by parsing data that achieves false positives consistent with ideological premises.

In turn, the other side loses some arguments, gets frustrated, does not really understand that it is the false framing of discussions that catalyses the process, then figures that out, then responds with counter ideology arguments that lead to gridlock. Basically, if you like game theory, it is discourse lifted out of the realm of reasoning, and into the realm of strategy.

In any strategic interaction, i.e., with two competitors who moves alter the opportunity sets of each other, play and counter play lead to an equilibrium strategy, a tendency. When incentives and rewards are equal and the game space is symmetrical, and there is no trumping move, or decisive technological advantage available to tip the balance, the equilibrium strategy is persistent gridlocked interplay, unless one side ceases to play.

Everything from nagging global problems to nagging interpersonal problems in relationships, are essentially games with equilibrium strategies of persistent gridlocked interplay.

The incentive for play is nor to win, but rather not to lose.

But take away the false framing of the issue upon which the game is based, and the gridlock dissolves on its own.

duanep5ku 7 years, 5 months ago

I second plasticjhawk motion on asking does anybody on here have that information on the Daniels story. I have been checking and so far their seems to be only 2 sources saying anything and Rival's seems to want new subscribers to the site. So does anyone know anything new?

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

"Tyrel @ 33% from Trey and Junking the Experiment in Jumping Forward:"

~Scary Point 1: He could keep shooting 33% all season and still just be shooting back to a 39-40% average, after last year's blazing hot 46%.

~Scary Point 2: KU cannot afford Tyrel shooting 33% all season, despite his virtuous floor game; or good teams will box and one on Selby and clog the lane, or play a sagging man that doubles and bumps Selby all over the place.

~Solution 1: The core of all shooting woes of this kind is to get Tyrel to take better shots, not just keep shooting.

~Solution 2: Tyrel appears to have been taught the same disruptive shot mechanic that Brady was taught...jumping forward on your J. Let this be a lesson to the players and coaches: never fix what ain't broke, especially a jump shot. I always recall Dick Barnett for person in this regard. His form was horrible, but it worked and he was a great professional basketball guard and solid shooter on the old Knick teams.

Tradition teaches the jump shooter to go straight up and start to release an inch or so prior to the top of the jump, so the upward force of the legs acts as partial propellant on the ball and so the actual release and follow through completes at the highest point of the jump.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

It is obvious why Tyrel and Brady's shots were screwed with technically. The coaches wanted them shooting more this year and from farther out and so they did the seemingly rational thing: they assumed these guys were such terrific natural shooters that they could adapt their shots to a new mechanic--dribbling/running and jumping up and forward, instead of straight up--to extend their range and reduce the blocking of their shots. It works fabulously well, in terms of keeping their shots from being blocked. Brady and Tyrel hardly ever have a trey shot blocked this season, and hardly ever have to start a shot and then stop to avoid a block. Forward jumping when already moving horizontally also gets you to the top of your jump quicker, which distills to a quicker release and the forward motion amplifies range.

But forward jumping has just one flaw: it appears so far to have lowered their shooting percentages from the low to mid 40s to the low to mid 30s. This is exactly what KU did not need. Anyone learning to shoot this style of jump shot needs more than one off season and one season to perfect it.

With Selby on the team now, it would be better to have Brady and Tyrel go back to their traditional shooting mechanics for the rest of the season, cut their FGAs back to wide open looks and let Selby take the extra FGAs.

Solution 3: Take a game or two, and green light EJ and Travis to shoot the trey, for designated 5 minute stretches, since they have shown preliminary signs of being able to pot the triceratop much better than in the past and are protecting more. See if they can sustain their heretofore open look percentage, when shooting more often with less open looks.

Post Script: The trey shooting has to get better, and we have to have at least two viable perimeter trifectators on the floor constantly, to make the inside game work. Selby, though apparently so far highly variable (streaky) in his trey shooting, appears on the way to becoming one. Self needs at least two more--one on the floor and one on the bench to bring in when either of those on the floor are cold. Fortunately, Brady and Tyrel can almost certainly return to their high percentage forms, if they return to their old mechanics and limit their looks to the wide open variety, and, further, Self has EJ and Travis showing strong signs of being able to be viable trinitarians as their floor games continue to show improvement. The problem is solvable, but I doubt it is solvable by standing pat and hoping Tyrel and Brady break out of slumps. Someone has to admit the experiment in new mechanics did not work, even though lots of shooting consultants advocate for the jumping forward jump shot off a bounce, or a pass, especially in transition, as a means of achieving greater range. Some experiments don't work. Jettisoning them and adapting next is key.

Travis or/and EJ may be have to drafted into dutythat would mean that we would have to rely on Kieff and Josh for trifectation

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Erratum: Drop that last sentence fragment. I meant to, but forgot.

justanotherfan 7 years, 5 months ago

I am not a Brady hater, although I have been critical of him, and of the minutes he has played. This is not because I don't think Brady should play. I think he should play. This has more to do with tailoring his minutes on the floor to match his skillset.

We have a predominantly uptempo team this season. The last two years, we were more of a half court team because that allowed us to take advantage of Cole's size inside. Although Cole ran the floor well, he wasn't a guy that you wanted to get into transition on every play. He had much more of an advantage in the halfcourt.

In the same way, Brady is better in the half court than he is in an up and down game. Obviously, the reason for this is different than it is for Cole, but the point is the same. Brady is better in the set offense and set defense than he is in the open floor.

That's great and useful, but at the same time, most of this years team benefits from getting out in transition, and we happen to have several guard/wing type players that not only play well in transition, but thrive in the open floor. Selby, Taylor, Johnson, Releford, Reed, pretty much all of our guards are very good in transition. In addition, our three main big guys all do well in the open floor.

So what's Brady to do? Well, he has to find a niche with some of the other halfcourt game players. I mentioned on another post that Brady may need to be used primarily with a bigger lineup, which could take advantage of his post feeding ability, while also letting him get his feet set for his three point shot. Brady is a much better stand still shooter than he is running off picks or filling the lane in transition. Because of that, playing with a big lineup (where teams will double the post) gives Brady a chance to catch the ball on rotations rather than working off screens or in transition. That should help him shoot the ball better than he has so far this season, when he has seemed out of sync.

Defensively, it would allow him to defend 2 guards rather than some of the taller 3s we will see as we get into conference play. And of course, playing with a bigger lineup means there are more guys to protect the rim behind him if he gets beat off the dribble by some of the quicker guys he will match up with.

How many minutes would Brady get if he was used this way? Probably only 10-15. However, I could very easily see Brady posting a very solid line night in and night out with those minutes (a made 3, a couple of assists, a steal and a rebound or two).

Meanwhile, guys like Johnson and Releford could take advantage of the leftover minutes and give us a spark off the bench in transition similiar to what happened against Miami (OH).

kthawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Nice theory that Brady is a better half-court player and not quite quick enough to handle the faster style of play. I have not seen or noticed any lack of quickness on his part.
The only thing that has separated Brady from quality minutes is shooting. When and if his shooting turns around, he will be an interchangeable part of Self's machine. There will be no significant difference (with the exception of experience...which cannot be underrated) between his game and that of the other guards on the team. Of course, this is what Self wants from his players; namely interchangeability.

justanotherfan 7 years, 5 months ago

I didn't say it was a lack of quickness on Brady's part. This is a style issue.

Johnson, Releford, Taylor, all of those guys are slashing type guards first and foremost. As with most other slashing type guards, their game is better in transition, when the defense isn't back and set. That doesn't mean they can't play halfcourt, but it does mean that they play that much better when they are in the open court.

Brady is more of a set shooter. Because of his style of play, he fits better in the halfcourt game because he can get his best shots, and use his post feeding (since obviously you can't feed the post when you are in the open floor) on the offensive end. That doesn't mean that he can't play in the open floor, as we have seen him make plays on the break before. However, he is most comfortable in the halfcourt game.

As I said on another post, Brady is a much better shooter when he is set and either receiving a kickout from the post or a swing from the opposite side. He is not as consistent when he is either running off screens or running on the break. He just seems much more comfortable when he is already set and squared versus squaring up after the catch.

Just as some guys struggle with catch and shoot situations (Travis Releford fit into this category just a couple years ago, and Elijah Johnson seemed to struggle with that last year), others struggle when they aren't able to just catch and shoot. It's a style thing, and I think Brady's style realizes its strengths more in the halfcourt than in an uptempo game.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago


don't confuse anyone with the facts around here, okay? :-)

Yide 7 years, 5 months ago

For those wanting insider info on Daniels I can't help. I would caution jumping to a conclusion just based on the headline.

Whispers: Daniels appears headed to KU

The key word is "appears" in the headline. I can't remember a specific example but I feel like has put up similar headlines about recruits in years past and been wrong.

I'm with all of you hoping we get some great news about this soon.

duanep5ku 7 years, 5 months ago

Yide I tend to agree with you about the two sources I've seen today because it seems to me their just guessing so far to drum up their site hits I mean the sites both know what this information will do for their hits today from both Kansas and UK fan bases combined but I hope for the best on this one.

Theutus 7 years, 5 months ago

There are plenty of other factors to be considered, like the fact that Brady usually see's minutes early in the game when KU usually steps out and plays harder... as opposed to our second half where we are dominating teams and just stop caring usually (and it shows).

I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with your point mind you, i'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in denouncing Brady's actual stat lines, then turning around and backing up your entire argument with these junk stats that are entirely based on correlation...

Correlation ≠ Causation.

hawksfan08 7 years, 5 months ago

A) I did have some backwards math at one point. my bad. Newell would warn against the +/- stat largely because a big portion of it can be based on who you're playing with. EX. me with 4 all americans vs. 1 all american with 4 scrubs. I probably still have a higher +/- with the all americans than the other all american with the scrubs even though I could never be considered an equal player. So feel free to take that for what you will

B) That UCLA stat is based solely on morningstar's high minutes and one run (early in the first half when Josh Smith abused our inside players) skewing your 40mpg adjustment. You could do the same thing with the Miami game the other way if you wanted.

C) Thanks for ignoring the other portion of the post showing that Brady is statistically our worst regular player by far. Maybe you don't have insider, or maybe it just doesn't agree with your argument. A replacement level player is given a rating of 15. Brady is rated in the 12's

The real argument isn't whether KU is good with Brady. It's whether they'd be better with someone else. PER shows that they'd be better with any of the other regular rotation players.

Oh one last thing. Ever think the 08 meant a date of importance NOT related to the title?

Theutus 7 years, 5 months ago

I'm assuming that was directed towards Lebowski and not me...

I'm actually not against Brady seeing 15-20 minutes a game myself... I just don't think he should be seeing more than that especially at the detriment of our other players.

kellyrojo78 7 years, 5 months ago

wow..Ron Franklin just got canned from ESPN. Guess they will have to put someone else on our games. I really liked his coverage but sounds like he's a bit of an a so good riddance!

Theutus 7 years, 5 months ago

You denounced stats directly tied to Brady's performance, then turned around and based an argument almost entirely on a set of stats based entirely on correlation...

It is hypocritical.. But by all means, throw a temper tantrum and call everyone names... You really "owned" me alright.

Ron Franklin 7 years, 5 months ago

Although I'm not anti-Brady, I do believe Elijah & Travis are beginning to earn his minutes.

I believe the strongest line up has become Taylor, Selby, Reed, Marcus & Kief w/ EJ the next best option at the guard off the bench & TRob the next best big off the bench....Relaford should spell Reed at the wing before Brady does. Not only is Relefords 3 falling, but he can also create for himself. That's something I have not seen Brady do.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago


Thanks for getting down and grinding it out with the aliases you mention.

I cannot believe I have goofed so, and did not compare minutes with and minutes without Brady. This is why we can never have too many sane minds around the logonasium. :-)

As you post here less frequently these days, HEM is an ideologue that has potential for reasoned thought, while ict is an ideologue that would perhaps have to go through a rigorous deprogramming process to even begin to grasp what an ideologue is. :-)

HEM has a good mind that apparently slipped into the bad habit of premising argument with ideology, understandable for a youngster in these days of logic free education, and he uses that ideology to help him organize his posts. The latter, i.e., at least trying to use something for a theme, is at least a sign of a mind that might be salvaged. HEM understands that posts benefit from conscious use of theme, or conscious violation of theme to make a counter-point about theme. If we can get him to surrender the indeologically based thinking, he will naturally adopt rationally derived and empirically defensible themes, as opposed to ideologically based ones supported by improperly parsed data, and his reasoning will shine brightly and articulately and add much to the board.

Alas, poor ict shows little promise in this regard. He is the basketball posting equivalent of a neocon vulcan chickenhawk who lacks all awareness of how ridiculous his arguments are in the beginning, and how outcomes refute his expectations over time. :-)

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Until that time, HEM and ict et al will parse the facts with as much bias as it takes to make them able to sustain their wrong headed notions and the typical crux of all their arguments: A is right, because A is right. :-)

Theutus seems to be an interesting, anomalous and separate case. He seems not to be an ideologue, at all. In fact, his instincts for premises are some times good on many subjects, even though he and I often disagree. Whereas HEM and ict tend to get the premises entirely wrong, Theutus tends at least occasionally to intuit the premise correctly, but then bog down in the analysis.

Theutus' problem is exemplified by his response to you immediately above. He does not agree/disagree with you, despite the clarity of the presentation of your argument allowing him full well to either admit error and agree, or stubbornly ideologically persist, as HEM and ict are prone to do. Instead, Theutus manifests a combination of analysis paralysis (he won't agree or disagree), coupled with ad homming (implying you are a hypocrite) and logical contradiction (i.e., while saying he won't agree, or disagree with you, he then states categorically of your sound analysis that correlation does not equal causation). He is then someone with decent instincts and challenged analytical abilities, which, when frustrated by these shortcomings, resorts to name calling.

Regardless, always good to have you pop in and slap them around for some fun, when I know you prefer an informative discussion instead.

Rock Chalk!

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Post Script to Lebowski:

Regarding jayhawkinnebr, how shall I put this politely?

jayhawkinnebr gets neither the premises, nor the analysis, nor the conclusions right at even a random rate.

This suggests to me some basic wiring problems. :-)

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago

Lewbowski: Again, I go back to the side point .. what causes you to refer to someone as a "jackass"? You seem to have problems with folks that disagree with you. Relax.

I agree, the Roland numbers from the StatSheet are numbers to be considered. But as Theutus pointed out, correlation does not necessarily equal causation. However, it may. The points a team scores when a player's on the court may have very little to do with that player, but it may have a lot to do with the player. It's tough for me to give it a lot of credence, but it is evidence.

One of the stronger assessments of player's value comes from Hollinger's player efficiency ratings, as mentioned by hawksfan08. This is a follow up to his post.

Here is the methodology for those that don't know as pulled from the college page, for those that don't know- *To qualify: a player must have played 6.09 MPG. AST: Assist Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers] TO: Turnover Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that end in a turnover. Turnover Ratio = (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers] USG: Usage Rate - the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace) ORR: Offensive rebound rate DRR: Defensive rebound rate REBR: Rebound Rate - the percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds. Rebound Rate = (100 x (Rebounds x Team Minutes)) divided by [Player Minutes x (Team Rebounds + Opponent Rebounds)] PER: Player Efficiency Rating is the overall rating of a player's per-minute statistical production. The league average is 15.00 every season.

Next, to judge perhaps the credibility, here are the top 10 rated NBA players using PER: Chris Paul, Dwayne Wade, Lebron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Deron Williams, Kevin Durant, and Kevin Love. Last season, the top 3 were Lebron, Wade, and Durant. This just gives it credibility or weight.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago


As with any statistical analysis, this isn't the gospel. There can be quirks, head scratchers .. but there aren't a lot. Understand it is meant to determine efficiency per minute played .. multiple items that happen on the court.. But I would simply say that this has weight. (I qualify it this way so as to attempt to stave off the "yea but" that it isn't perfect argument .. I get that). Particularly when you use in conjunction with the actual game stats, this is an effective, somewhat objective way to look at performance

The PER stats rated the top 100 players in the Big 12 (again expanding on hawksfan08). Here are how the players on our team that have average over 6.09 minutes rate in the Big 12: 1) Kieff 32.09 2) TRob 30.19 3) Marcus 29.69 12) Withey 24.09 (he had the least amount of minutes averaged by nearly 3 minutes than anyone in the top 100 .. 7.4 minutes. Interesting though) 31) Releford 20.13 35) EJ 19.12 53) TT 16.36 58) Reed 12.09 87) Brady 12.09

In looking at the above, the only head scratcher is Withey, right? But perhaps we should look closer at what Withey does.

Really, are any of the above surprising based on what we've seen? What I find interesting is that Brady isn't even in the ballpark with the others. I'm looking for the stat that measures crisp passes around the perimeter, "keeping stars out of foul trouble" per Lebowski, and kind of being a kind of threat to kind of score even though he doesn't, per Lebowski.

KULA 7 years, 5 months ago

I love it! My man Withey's effectiveness if finally backed up with stats. It's no head scratcher for me. As I've posted before, every time Withey gets more than a few minutes, he has a good stat line.

waywardJay 7 years, 5 months ago

The question should be I you decided to write a book would anyone really dare read it ?

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Yes, you do have to write a book. Go do it. Come back in ten years when you finish. :-)

waywardJay 7 years, 5 months ago

To brady or not to brady.....

I use my eyes and then read the stats from what my eyes see, and my brain analyzes.

My brain is not a super computer. It is more than often running at Windows 98 specifications. Decent operating system, capable of handling many tasks, but certainly not XP or 7.

My eyes see brady as two steps slower than our opponents, and I see Brady's adapation is being 3 steps more IQ than opposing players. When the problem seems to amplify when the players are then 4-5 steps quicker than Brady.... He doesn't get any SMARTER in those moments and then makes mistakes. He Doesn't have Tyrel's grit. He doesn't have Tyshawn's step. He doesn't have Travis's overall length. He doesn't have Elijah's leap. He doesn't have Selby's all of the above. He's just Brady Morningstar, Super Genius.

He's VERY , yes I said VERY, effective at teams with his level or less athleticism. Brady would have been 15 point per game guy at a Bradley. However, He's at Kansas.

People point to the effects of Brady in the game and his intangibles, but I see others playing up those same intangibles. Travis's defense has been on an uptick, just as his shooting. Elijah'sgrowing more and more effective as combo/point every day. Tyrel has already Outbodied Brady and Outgunned brady. Playing Brady just because of his IQ on the court at this point is an exercise in backwards progression. We still get better when he plays, but we lose the mistakes young players would make early and work through later on in the season.

PLaying Brady the amounts of minutes we play him directly hurts us when it comes to tougher teams in the tourney. Our youngsters ( IE Travis and Elijah ) in the past have not been allowed to make mistakes in previous ball we are focused in on a shallower bench. It eventually becomes Brady tyrel and our Bigs against teams that have that same level of IQ as Brady ( Great example of this was Northern Iowa )> Brady did nothing to pull himself out of the game, yet Brady did not Impact the game in ways ELijah might have.

Theutus 7 years, 5 months ago

Apparently that's the only place reporting this right now... I want to believe, but I think i'll try to keep myself from buying it until I see something more official.

Fingers crossed.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago

Jaybate: What is a combination of comical and pathetic is your statement: "HEM and ict et al will parse the facts with as much bias as it takes to make them able to sustain their wrong headed notions and the typical crux of all their arguments: A is right, because A is right."

I challenge you to find some examples of your assertion. Go back and look. I'm interested.

Actually, my arguments are A + B = C. Logic. Touchy feely folks like you have trouble with that sort of approach. Makes you uncomfortable. What you do is ignore arguments and factual points that aren't to your liking. I have never ducked a stat, an issue, or an argument. I have never said I'm right .. because I am right. I back it up with information, observation, and/or statistics. I have an opinion, but I'm always willing to change my opinion. Give me proof and I'll listen. You, on the other hand, name call and ignore arguments and objective evidence. It is your routine. And your cover is volume.

Folks like you surmize, hypothesize, and theorize. You remind of a college professor or two I had .. those that can do; those that can't, teach. Right? But with it is arrogance. Talking down to people as if you are somehow intellectually superior. And condescending. Folks like you are at the heart of the matter, insecure. You project that insecurity routinely.

But as I posed to you sometime before, on a few occasions. and you never answered ... have you ever played this game or coached this game at a high level? And as an add on, how about football or baseball .. coached or played at a high level? Real sports, real team competition? Not racing your bike around a lake. Can you tell us your experience level? Again, information helps.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago

(cont) You are easy to peg, though. You're the guy that didn't. That's ok. You are what you are. But it explains things and your perspective, and your insecurities .. this comes out in your posts. You're the guy that talks about it and never did it. The reason it is easy to peg is because you have no practical insight into the game. You have no idea what it takes to compete and to win. You have no idea what it takes to prepare young men for competition. Your thoughts here are an insight into that lack of knowledge. I see right through guys like you. All talk, no substance.

As an example, one of the things that sealed the deal for me on that was your asinine statement that coach Self told Marcus to get tossed from the game at Cal. Definitive evidence, I would suggest. It's not just the suggestion, but the suggestion that coach Self, at KU, with his star, with the possibility that the team would find out, with the possibility that he (Self) could face suspension .. I could go on. Seriously deficient of any practical knowledge. But theorizing? You're the king.

The whole "ideological" stuff is the smoke screen because you have zero ability to actually debate an issue. You try overwhelm a subject with the volume of your words vs. actually refuting a point. You don't assign value to information you disagree with .. you ignore it. Or you take it as your own. For example, you suggested that any comparison between Brady and EJ was meritless because they didn't play the same position (the 3). Then you later post how EJ did well at the 3 vs. Memphis and suggested how he could man that spot. Comical for those that pay attention.

And you're best defense of Brady .. the best one .. is, well, if his shots were going in we wouldn't be having this discussion. Well, great point. And if I had a billion bucks I'd be a billionaire. But I would have to agree. You have me there. If Brady was shooting 3 pointers at EJ's %, and going 55% from the field, and scoring 10 a game, and not turning the ball over, playing lock-down defense, etc., you would have me there.

Hank Cross 7 years, 5 months ago

There's a strong case Self sees Brady as his mini-me.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Dear Lebowski,

Study HEM's post closely. This one is definitive. This is textbook ideologue.

HEM is able to say who is wrong, because he knows what is right. HEM is able to know that which defense of Brady is the best among those that are not as good as HEM's. HEM knows. Isn't it strange that in this world of emergent complextity rife with uncertainties HEM knows that quite a number of persons that present data contradictory to his POV, and others that explain the logical fallacies in his reasoning, are wrong, but he is right?


He is right, because he is right.

I am wrong about him being an ideologue, not because he is not an ideologue. Nooooooooo, I am wrong, because I have " ability to actually debate an issue."

Surrrrrrrre. :-)

That pretty much covers it.

Or does it?

If I have zero ability to actually debate an issue, then why is he arguing this issue?

Maybe because this is not about Brady at all, but about HEM being right?

Anything HEM says is right, because he first assumes it to be right and then keeps insisting with parsed data that suits him.

Reality is crowding in on HEM. His posts are getting longer and longer. I go long for fun and entertainment, to work out, to experiment. He goes long out of frustration and fear. He is trying harder and harder to be "believed," apparently because the longer he argues the more facts and fallacies surface to challenge his POV, not necessarily to prove another POV, just to bring his further into queston.

Ideologues always want to be believed, because the premise is always ideological, not a rational one. The chief virtue of an ideologues premise is always that it is his. If you read HEM's posts he even talks about believing things he has assumed to be right. He somewhat remarkable in this respect, even for an ideologue.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

HEM is resorting to increasing amounts of parsed data, after having been refuted by what you and others have presented. He has done the same after I have knocked the pilings out from under his piers with the fallacies in his reasoning. He has done the same again and again and again. Nothing must threaten the assumed premise. The assumed premise is sacred. It is the god head and the ego anchor. Oh, and at the same time he is projecting what he is doing onto lil' ol' jaybate. This too is classic ideologue stuff.

"I am right, because I say I am. You are wrong because you have zero ability to argue."--Quoted from "HEM's Ideology for Those Too Fearful to Think without the Linus Blanket of Ideology"

But trust me, once he gets off the ideological binging that he is on, once he returns to Ideologues Anonymous and dries out, he's going to be a good board rat.


Dear HEM,

You're an ideologue.

The valid empirical and logical refutations to your arguments keep accruing, not just from me, but from others and it does not matter than you claim they do not refute you. The truth is the truth not because I, or someone else, or even you say it is true. The truth is the truth. It endures. It becomes harder and harder for more and more to ignore. The ideologues are always the last to admit to truth that is contrary to what they assume. They are still arguing the old argument, while the rest simply move on with the admission of the truth to the game space.

jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

You are not an ideologue, because I say you are. I am merely mastering the obvious and being the messenger.

Your posts are getting longer and longer HEM, not because you are right, but because you are clinging to being wrong about more and more board rats that refute you.

I go long and short. I go long for fun and to entertain and to practice. I don't go long out of fear, or out of a need to show how profound I can be. I go long to explore language and the way it works. You appear to long out of desperation. If I have an important point I want understood I get to it.

You're an ideologue.

See? I put that at the top, didn't I? :-)

I notice each time you resist sensible counter arguments. I notice that you don't change your mind, because of the validity of sound evidence. You just provide more parsed evidence to try to refute the sound evidence, or your resort to the false framing of the discourse as the pro Brady's, or the Anti-Bradys. these are odd things to do, but they are what ideologues do.

And I notice that when you try to obscure this ideological tendency in you that you point to how you changed your mind about some player (Taylor, if I recall correctly), but I also notice that you do not change your mind, because of the evidence that someone presented to you. You change your mind, because some time passed between when you made your last assumption and decided to make a new assumption about the same subject. You aren't really changing your mind based on counter arguments presented to you. You are just making new assumptions that you will then argue ideologically again.

You finding an error I have made, or a mistaken judgment I have made, or a gross stupidity on my part, or even just an error, or mistaken judgement you wrongly "believe" I have made, does not change how you are. If I go stand on my head, swear I am a pink rabbit, and insist Bill Self is a female impersonator from Belize, that does not change the record of your refusal to accept facts that contradict your POV, without trying to rationalize them away so as to preserve your ideological assumptions.

Ideologues often accuse persons that differ with them of having zero ability to argue. They do this especially with persons that have considerable ability to argue. But what is really fascinating about ideologues is that they go ballistic when confronted with their ideological behaviors by fair persons who care about them; this they really seem to despise. It makes them use unecessarily acrimonious words like asinine. :-)

I am sorry, it hurts, HEM. But coming face to face with your ideological addiction is going to help you in the long run.

I really do care for you.

Best, jaybate

Jack Wilson 7 years, 5 months ago

I'm not quite sure that you actually said anything in this entire post.

And I have challenged you .. what facts have I refused to accept? I've asked before, asked it above, and ask it now .. and you simply can't answer. Not asking for vast research into my posts. Just give me some examples that stand out as a discussion point. But you won't, or can't. You resort to name calling .. just a fancier name.

And you of course won't address my assumptions into what provides you your broad base of knowledge. One can wonder why.

If your response to someone's opinion is to call them an ideologue, and spend muliple key stroke characters aguing that point, it makes one wonder who, in fact, is the true ideologue. I guess I'm really not too insulted by being called an ideologue. Or a "remarkable ideologue" as you put it .. I like that better.

I change my mind based on evidence .. proof .. regardless of whether someone has made the argument, or not. And I establish my opinons with the same criteria.

Larry Smith 7 years, 5 months ago


My name is Bill Self. I am the head coach of Kansas Basketball. I play who I want to play. I could care less what the rest of you think. I make decisions based on what I see day in and day out in practice along with my evaluations of the game film. I want to win. I will play whomever gives us the best chance to win. I do not care what you think. Carry on with your assinine opinions on who I play and why I play them. That is all.

Tony Bandle 7 years, 5 months ago

What the heck are we all going to argue about once Brady graduates:

1] Uniform colors? 2] Pep Band Song list? 3] Intro Video? 4] Color of Bill's Toupee? 5} Allen Fieldhouse to serve Cheese or Buttered Popcorn?

This constant arguing while comparing mental manhoods is becoming: A] Ridiculous B] Unseemly C] MU-like or UK-like D] Pointless E] All of the above

Just agree to disagree. If you don't like the post ...don't read it, don't blast it and don't belittle yourself by making personal insults to someone you don't even know.

Matt1958 7 years, 5 months ago

To those complaining about Tyrel being the "face" of the team: I'm with ya! Why would you want an in state kid that works as hard as anyone in practice, never causes any problems, is never in trouble, is respected by every team member and coach for his work ethic, and gets it done in the classroom to be the face of your team? Preposterous, preposterous, preposterous statements. In my book, Tyrel exhibits EXACTLY what Kansas Basketball is!

Truthhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Just read the continuing Jaybate -- HEM debate.

I have an idea. Can we call a truce on this? I'm not normally a peacemaker but I like both of your posts and analysis, if that is possible. You two are the best two out here .. next to drgnslyer (IMO). You both bring different insights and many times say the same things, but different ways.

Truce? Agreed?

I'm going to post this on the other threads.

Hank Cross 7 years, 5 months ago

What's more damaging to landing a top-notch recruit - some people running their mouths on the internet (which happens in regard to every single sports team), or seeing a player with mediocre at best stats and ability take time away from more athletically talented players?

Commenting has been disabled for this item.