Kansas defeats Long Beach State, 88-80

  • 8 p.m., Dec. 6, 2011
  • Allen Fieldhouse, Lawrence, KS

Wednesday, December 7, 2011

Not great late: KU’s carelessness has Bill Self steaming

Kansas forward Thomas Robinson celebrates for the television cameras after a put-back dunk against Long Beach State during the second half Tuesday, Dec. 6, 2011 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas forward Thomas Robinson celebrates for the television cameras after a put-back dunk against Long Beach State during the second half Tuesday, Dec. 6, 2011 at Allen Fieldhouse.


Podcast episode

Press Conferences & Post-Game Interviews

KU coach Bill Self

Kansas coach Bill Self talks to reporters following the Jayhawks' 88-80 victory over Long Beach State on Dec. 6, 2011.

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KU vs. Long Beach State

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KU defeated Long Beach State, 88-80, on Tuesday, Dec. 6, 2011 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Sure, it was great that Thomas Robinson scored a career-high 26 points and dandy that Jeff Withey nearly recorded a triple-double with 13 points, 13 rebounds and nine blocks.

Those individual feats didn’t have coach Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self smiling after his Jayhawks’ entertaining, but sloppy, 88-80 victory over Long Beach State on Tuesday night in Allen Fieldhouse.

“We are the worst passing team I have ever seen,” Self proclaimed after watching his team see a 19-point lead to shrink to four late, courtesy of a second half in which the Jayhawks committed 16 turnovers against just four assists. Overall, KU had 16 assists and 22 turnovers and had the ball stolen a whopping 15 times.

“It’s ridiculous to watch,” Self added. “You can look up and down the lineup, and there’s nobody that values the ball at all.”

Self was so miffed at his team’s passing that he cautioned the fans what they might expect in Saturday’s 2:15 p.m. home battle against No. 2 Ohio State.

“If we handle the ball like that, they can pick the score,” Self said. “Let’s just call it like it is. They will pick the score in our own building if we handle the ball like that. We have to do a better job. Elijah (Johnson, four turnovers, five assists, 20 minutes) ... unbelievable, the plays he made after he subbed back in after his sitting because of his fourth foul (with 16:40 left). Incredible he can make those plays when he’s sitting over there watching and knowing the score and the circumstances in which we need him to give us some minutes to win the game. We have to have a lot better guard play. We need to have everybody play better.

“It will be a jailbreak,” Self added of Saturday, “if we turn the ball over against Ohio State. They won’t just be running out and scoring two points. They will be making plays that are ESPN Top-10 plays. We have to handle and pass it and maybe think the game a little better Saturday.”

As far as the guards, off guard Conner Teahan scored a career-high 14 points off 4-of-5 three-point shooting, and Tyshawn Taylor had 12 points, five turnovers and four assists in 34 minutes.

Taylor showed no effects of a right knee injury he suffered at practice Monday.

“The doctors said he tweaked it,” Self said, noting the injury was not believed to be serious. Also, Johnson had six points in 23 minutes. Freshman point Naadir Tharpe didn’t play. Self said it was “coach’s decision.”

“We shot the ball great and shared it great early,” Self said. “Thomas was on fire. We actually defended them pretty well except for ball-screen defense. We had so many mental breakdowns that allowed them to score 39 the first half (to KU’s 51). In the second half, our defense was pretty good, but our offense sucks.

“The thing that’s so pitiful,” Self went on, “is of their 41 points the second half, 25 were off our turnovers. Our guards had zero assists, six turnovers the second half. It’s hard to look good when you don’t get shots. It is as miserable a performance the last 10 minutes as I’ve ever seen.”

Robinson scored 18 points — just two off his previous career-high total of 20 — in the first half alone as KU raced to a 51-39 halftime lead. Teahan drilled four threes in the half and totaled 12 points, which actually surpassed the career-high of 11 he tied the previous game against South Florida.

Robinson (10-14 from field overall) was credited with perfect 8-of-8 shooting the first half, the official scorers giving him a turnover instead of a shot on a play in which he hoisted the ball toward the goal from about six feet out.

Robinson had 16 points and Teahan 12 off combined perfect 11-of-11 shooting as KU led by 19 points — 34-15 — with 9:30 left in the first half. However, Long Beach State, which was paced by T.J. Robinson’s 17 first-half points, cut the gap to 10 twice — 41-31 and 43-33.

The 49ers, who trailed by 11 with 1:37 to play (83-72), were down by just four, 84-80, with 42.2 seconds left.

Taylor hit two free throws at :33.3 and Withey two more at :23.1, averting a shocking late loss. Another key stretch was with just under three minutes left. KU led, 77-72, when Robinson missed two free throws. Teahan rebounded the second, then after a deep Robinson miss, Teahan rebounded again. Taylor then drove for a basket and hit a free throw, and KU led, 80-72, at 2:09.

“The biggest play Conner made was when he got two offensive rebounds in one possession,” Self said. “It led to a three-point play off two terrible shots. Conner made some good plays, but he got picked for a layup late, too. Our ball-handling is just atrocious.”

KU did improve to 6-2; Long Beach State fell to 4-4.

“They have a good team, a fun team to watch,” Self said of the 49ers.


yates33333 2 years, 4 months ago

I really do wonder how many individuals posting here are KU fans and how many are fans of other teams hoping to demoralize KU's fan base and perhaps players who might read these remarks.

All turn overs are not equal. Granted KU has too many with what is often sloppy passing, but some are due to the rough play that has been a hallmark of college basketball since the 1970s. Several last night resulted from pushes, grabs, shoves, and fairly obvious fouls where balls were taken away by opposing players. Although Withey and TRob turned the ball over a few times they played superb games, as did Teahan. Taylor did look out of sorts some of the time. Releford needs to improve his shooting. I don't know how, but he needs to. And EJ needs to play up to what seemed to be his potential last year. He hasn't had too many good games thus far. In general, KU is doing much better than most of us expected when we viewed the roster at the season's outset. I agree with those who say KU will play much better later as a team. But so will some of the other teams. Let's hope we develop faster and better.


Slick50 2 years, 4 months ago

I love HCBS, and he's done great things for this university and basketball program, but the albatros around his neck will always be his insistance of starting, playing and sticking up for a player like TT. We will have a decent season, and maybe even win the Big XII again this year, but this team will NEVER win a meaningful game with TT playing the point. The tourney is a foregone conclusion. Possibly a first round out.


hihawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Hey bullets, sounds simple enough but, it's not getting done. Not enough playing time for these guards that were not given playing time last year because of self playing that stupid Morningstar too much when his drunken @ss should have been on the bench. Poor coaching by Self, no one feels sorry for Self as he brought this on him self.


machinegun 2 years, 4 months ago

I seriously question the harsh criticism being directed at Tyshawn Taylor. Coach Self is a really smart guy and he has chosen TT to lead this team to victory. He knows TT is the only one who can get his own shot. But Coach Self expects TT to distribute the ball and help others get their shots. Sounds simple enough.


hihawk 2 years, 4 months ago

ESPN just said if KU doesn't take care of the ball better then they did against LBS that Ohio ST. will make hawk meat out of KU. Maybe Self will learn something about recruiting good recruits and not the Morningstar dud that he did a few years ago, o, he does like to drive drunk. Only KU would have hired gill, I guess that tells how much they know about football. Nebraska just laughed when KU hire him. Kansas ST. in the bowl with the big 12 coach of the year, tells that we do have a football team in Kansas and it's not KU. This might be true of the basketball program also.


KansasComet 2 years, 4 months ago

It is still early in the season. So much panic? Oh my god, The Buckeyes are coming!! Let's recap: 4 starters from last year are gone. The returning starter, Tyshawn Taylor, was suspended by the coach for a few games last year, in addition to two exhibition games along with Elijah Johnson this season. Thomas Robinson went through a life time of heartache, in a 4 week period, last year. We had a decent recruiting class, and lost 3 of the top recruits coming in this season for whatever reason. Now, after all of this, we went to Madison Square Garden and gave Kentucky "The Business" in the beginning of the game, and actually looked pretty decent. We then go to Maui, and drove Coach K crazy. Has anyone ever seen Coach K as fired up about a game before? Now, here we are with a runner up finish in Maui and a lot of people are worried about Ohio State coming to town, I'm not. I say, bring them on, and this is our house. I see a Kansas team, that when forced to focus, is actually pretty good. I also see a Kansas team that has difficulty maintaining that focus. This I believe will come in time. We are improving week to week, and this tough schedule makes us realize that there is a long way to go. I actually prefer it this way for a little while, to experience being the hunter and not the hunted. No team is number one all of the time. We should appreciate the good times when we have decent teams, instead of acting like it is our birthright. It is a little bumpy right now, but please remember, this is not the team that Coach Self anticipated having this year. I think he is doing the best he can with what he has.


Ralster Jayhawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Well, maybe getting humiliated in AFH by a legit top5 squad like OhioState will get this team to pay heed to Self. I should specify about the guard play, namely TT, EJ, and Releford a bit...although Travis has been doing decent glue functions, but we need more explosiveness out of him (just. play. baby!)

Im wondering if "playing thru it" will fix these tendencies or not. But 22 t.o.'s wont get any team far in the dance...or a conf. championship.

Regarding Monson's handshake comments to Self: He made a crack about the poor officiating and thanked Self for the opportunity to play in AFH. In his press conf., Monson said he has known Self since they both were in the Big10 (Minn.&Illini, respectively). Self also said Monson's Gonzaga team gave Self's Tulsa team one of Self's worst losses ever. There is a strong mutual respect between these coaches. There was nothing adversarial between them.



hihawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Morningstar was a total flop as a baskeball player. He couldn't shoot and only hit 20% of his shots and was worse from the 3 point line. He couldn't guard worth a damn, then had to foul his man when he lost him. A total flat out dud. That is why the front court was carrying that team and that it went as far as it did. Reed didn't show up until he was a senior and that was about all the scoring that the guards did for the team. So many basketball experts have said that Morningstar was biggest problem that KU had and it was due to poor coaching by Self and now it is his problem, because KU doesn't have any good guards today. Poor recruiting again by Self, like he did with Morningstar, a 5th year alcoholic. Ohio ST. will really show where the weak spots are in KU and there are many. Self may want to check out the book on recruiting.


cajayfan 2 years, 4 months ago

Aaron Craft will definitely teach our guards a lesson and I love Thomas but, posing for the camera after a jam while the rest of your team gets back on defense....REALLY!!


HawkBBall 2 years, 4 months ago

Why did Tharpe not play?

Whatever happened to our patented in-bounds pass play under our basket?

Has a playbook been given to TT?


Robert Murphy 2 years, 4 months ago

An interesting way to look at the game, from the 16.18 mark Kansas lost this game by 4 points. Also from the time TT entered the game they lost by 4 points as he and his team mates couldn't hold a 12 point lead (16.18 mark) winning only by 8.


theend 2 years, 4 months ago

TT has potential....and he is capable of being very good. But the reality is that as long as he is a starter KU will not be very good. He has been at KU 4 years. If he was going to improve.....he would have by now.

Unfortunately.....there really isn't much to be done about it. It is what it is. TT leaving after this year is one of the best things for this team. Sad to say that......but I think we all know that's true.


Doug Fogleman 2 years, 4 months ago

Now we know why Reed and Morningstar played so much. They valued the ball and were pass first type of players.

But there is still alot of season left. I hope they move forward and not backwards.


TexasHawk44 2 years, 4 months ago

Ohio State is going to crush us if we play like we did last night.

And imagine Big 12 games: The Misery Tigers will score 120 points against us this year in Colombia if our guards continue have no value for the ball , especially if the Anti-Curly-Neal-Turns-The-Ball-Over-On-The-Way-To-The-Bathroom Tyshawn Taylor plays his typical reckless style. I think he is the worst starting PG to play a KU in a decade or more. Self must have some great blood pressure medicine or his head would explode coaching our backcourt...Ugh.. Congrats to Withey and T-Rob. Our front line played great! Too bad our backcourt couldn't follow suit...


JayHok 2 years, 4 months ago

Anybody notice the scoreboard during the minutes Withey was out?


RockChalk26 2 years, 4 months ago

Did anyone hear Coach Cal on Jim Rome today? The guy sure can pitch his school.


Gregor Southard 2 years, 4 months ago

I made the comment last week that KU would be better off with EJ at point and TT at the 2. Quite frankly, last night with EJ at point and Conner at the 2 they looked great. Not that I'm saying Conner should start, but it was the only strectch where KU looked great offensively so far this season.


finn78 2 years, 4 months ago

If someone has already posted/answered this sorry. But I was wondering if anyone knew the last time Hawks were an Allen Fieldhouse underdog?


JayHawkFanToo 2 years, 4 months ago

A few observations: In defense of TT, a couple of his turnover were perfectly catch able passes that the receiving player was not ready or able to catch. Why is Releford passing on 3 point shots? I have noticed in the last few games that is passing on wide open 3s. Has he lost confidence or has the coaching staff limited his shots? It seems that most of the alley-oop lobs are being intercepted by the defense, this goes back several games...I miss Morningstar and Reed, they sure knew how to set up the alley-oop. The prophet (EJ) need to get his act together. According to HC Self, he has been burning the nets in practice (with 3s) but at game time, he cannot his the broad side of a barn. He has an obvious mental block that he need to overcome; we all know that he definitely has the physical tools JW, PLEASE do not put the ball on the floor. You are a true seven footer; if you keep the ball above your head no one can take it away from you without fouling. A seven footer putting the ball on the paint is a guaranteed turnover. Teahan will not always hit his first three, but that is not a reason to take him out.(UK game), just setup plays for him and he will eventually get it going; he is too good of a shooter to stay cold very long. Most pleasant surprises so far:Withey and Teahan; we knew TR was good so that is no surprise.


Toby Wilson 2 years, 4 months ago

My take:

The first half we moved the ball well and created shots. The second half we didn't move the ball well, by hold it or dribbling while going nowhere. When you move the ball well, make good sharp passes, the defense is always trying to move to keep up creating openings. You hold the ball, or let it stick for to long, then the defense has time to move into passing lanes. Top that off with lazy passes and lazy ball handling you get the pathetic play of the second half.

I don't know what are practices are like, but something needs to change. When I was fighting for time on the court and was a 2nd squad guy I did whatever I could to get the coach to notice me. Are we practicing against guys that allow the starters to do what they want, and get away with lazy passes. I doubt that this is the case at KU. So if we are doing these things in practice, which I would assume we do, what kind of punishment is there for poor decisions during practice. If someone made these mistakes in practice, and played for me, they would get real tired of doing fingertip pushups or hitting the line to do some timed sprints. I don't claim to know all there is to know about hoops, but I know lazy play when I see it, and the best place to fix that is in practice. I am a firm believer in you play like you practice!!!

I love Jayhawk basketball and this kinda play is not Jayhawk basketball!!! I hope that coach can get the fundamentals drilled into this team before Big 12 play starts...


Ralster Jayhawk 2 years, 4 months ago

I was talking 'Hawks with a friend at work and I told him Tyshawn "needs to watch tape of Russell Robinson". Blow-by get-to-rim ability, but rarely had to as he just made the other 4 on the floor 'better'. But, with a 33win avg since '08, why would Tyshawn bother to look up RussRob? Maybe because he was the best PG/combo in the Self era at KU so far. And it took him 2yrs to get to that point. But Tyshawn watched Sherron. Tyshawn was also told to be 'himself' in his frosh year (give us what you can give us).

Jaybate was correct the other day when he stated Tyshawn's frosh year he was asked to be "impact player". Then he went on to U19 success in an "impact" role. Then soph season Self asked him to be "glue", and he openly struggled with his new role. The last 2 seasons he really needed/needs to do it all. Which requires serious decision-making, and leadership--especially evident for this year's squad. As a leader, he gotta solve the problem, not be a part of it. There is still time. The KU vault has plenty of gamefilm of RussRob...

Some players need to step up majorly.


FarSideHawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Unrelated, but just saw a picture of Julius Randle on twitter with Jayhawk gear, says "Rock Chalk" in the caption too.!/J30_RANDLE/media/slideshow?

Don't know if he is a KU lean or not. Interestingly, he doesn't have an offer yet from UNC, Duke, or Kentucky.


Ralster Jayhawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Agree with a lot of the sentiments above--we certainly have been spoiled the last 3-4 years with guards who valued the ball more.

I do disagree with those who feel it is "all Self's fault". That makes about as much sense as "QB takes the blame" (for a football loss). Like from 2000-2004 we should blame Trent Green's elite production for his Chief's lack of a defense, and the consequent losses??? So Self recruited these So? Players dont work out, or plateau, or transfer all the time from every program, so get over the blame game. Paulus leaves Duke. Drew,Jr leaves UNC. Lackluster or plateaued performance. Tyshawn starts all 4yrs and should "get it by now" (but clearly doesnt...or he does, but his game adrenaline causes a type of swagger in him that is simply "not" a good fit with Selfball's most basic philosophies of high% shot selection, valuing ea. possession, and making the opponent ugly with D.)

Blaming the coach is a simple cop-out for anyone who pretends to be an analytical thinker when it comes to college ball in general, and KU teams in particular! Seriously, what would Jay Bilas say about this year's Jayhawks??? Do you really think he will point the finger at Bill Self? Or would he point to specific players who arent getting it done?

Our guard play at crucial times just s-t-i-n-k-s, other times is respectable. It is not a lack of athleticism with the starters either. Maybe its the dreaded 'mental plateau'??? Recall CJGile never made it on the floor because he couldnt even remember the plays. Selfball definitely not for him. The '08champs had 55+ set plays to master-->So where do our commenting analysts think the current Jayhawks are in that process?

Some also forget that we have 1 returning starter (Tyshawn). TRob adjusting to bigtime mpg. EJ was TT's sub last he is playing alongside him. All I am saying is these first few games are a transition time...against some of the best competition out there. Seriously, an athletic senior-laden mid-major like LongBeach is exactly like the 'tourney blunders' in recent past (VCU, UNI, etc...). My feeling is this is all good for us. Problem for Jayhawk fans patience-level is that some players will "get it" at different rates. Some may never "get it". When was it a 'given' that every single Bill Self recruit will shine? Since when? Sorry to bring up the darkside, but fans need to evaluate their own expectations, too. Players dont always work out, or more commonly, dont attain the level we think they should. We have been spoiled seeing some players 'exceed' where their expected level at arrival projected. Stay centered. I cant imagine Bill Self's frustration level right now. Whole order of magnitude bigger than any fan's frustration level could ever get. Just my opinion at this point in the season...


distracted 2 years, 4 months ago

Lots of doom and gloom here, but we did come out with a win against a decent opponent.

Their record may not reflect it, but Long Beach State has proven themselves against some quality competition this season and they have the type of team that could potentially make some noise in the tourney later this season (they actually reminded me a bit of VCU with a pretty decent outside/inside combination and gritty attitude).

It was great to see Teahan step up. I was beginning to believe he was more of a liability than a positive. Given his slow feet at times, if he's not hitting shots, there really isn't much reason to have him out there. His hustle and headiness at the end of the game gave the Hawks an ever-so-slight bit of breathing room at the close of the game.

If T-Rob can find that stroke he displayed in the first half and it becomes the norm instead of an anomaly, he becomes virtually unguardable. As much as I like him burying jump shots, I'd still much rather see him down low taking care of the paint as he's done all season. Just hope he doesn't fall in love with the jump shot.

It was a bit of a roller coaster and the game film will definitely be a teaching tape, but it was a win.

I'm obviously pumped for OSU. Not guaranteeing a win, but I expect a much more buttoned up effort from the back court. Wish I could be at Allen for that one.


FreddyinLA 2 years, 4 months ago

Naadir not playing because of coaches decision is the first step in our normal progression of tightening the bench to a trusted few. We all know how that works on the weekend game of the only tourney that matters. Look for Wesley and Young to disappear from the rotation in conference play.

JW is showing he can play some ball after just a few games of getting quality minutes. This should have happened last year. I can only imagine how good we would have been last year having a guy capable of double digit blocks patrolling the paint.


kushaw 2 years, 4 months ago

Shawful and Shawesome Moments from last night:

1) Shawesome-I was digging the gold "The Beach" jersey's by LBSU last night. I couldn't really decide at first if I liked the font or not, but I decided they were unique and clever and I liked them.

2) Shawful-The Halftime University of Kansas commercial..........I mean, I don't know where they got that woman to do the dialogue but it was terrible. I felt like I was standing in line getting ready for the instructions at the Space Mountain ride at Walt Disney World. Just felt cheap like a late night Paid Programming special.

3) Shawful- 22 Turnovers to 16 assists-No need to expand further.

4) Shawzam-Withey's almost Triple Double-Wow! I will say this in defense of Withey for those that think he's not taking the ball aggressively to the rack. Withey was getting the ball in bad spots last night even though he was open.

It's hard receiving a pass already under the basket and trying to go up with it when the defense is already swarming and moving in your direction.  It's hard going up in a stand still position when 2 defenders are flying at you with momentum and a running start.  It's definitely correctable because his teammates can give it to him in better spots.  Also, if Withey just moves up the pain a couple of feet that would help his positioning as well.  Well done J-Wit!

5) Shawesome-Zeus himself................T-Rex!

6) Shawesome-EJ's behind the back two step "And 1" for the lay-up! Suhhhhhhh Weeettttttt! EJ isn't all there, but nailing that 3 should definitely help in the confidence. It should because he has the best PG in Aaron Craft coming into AFH on Saturday.

7) Shawful-Tharpe's DNP

8) Shawful-Wesley's continued fouling on hedges at the top of the key.

9) Shawful-Defending the 3 and TO's is this team's achilles heel.

10) Shawful-Who is this announcer that played at UCLA? I find him extremely annoying.

11) Shawesome-I don't have to listen to the annoying announcer from UCLA this Saturday against OSU.


flyingfinn 2 years, 4 months ago

I said at the beginning of the season that TT had to pick up his play this year and so far it has been a dissappointment. The disturbing thing is that EJ and Taylor seem to hang together and EJ looks up to him and is unfortunately picking up on his bad habits on and off the court. Time to grow up guys or a big slap down is coming this weekend. On the positive we have played one of the most difficult pre-season schedules in the country and are 6-2 and have been in every game, Robinson's play is improving and despite comments above Withey is improving remember this is his first year of serious playing time unlike TT. Finally I am not worried about Missouri and comments about their smooth play are ridiculous. They are severely over rated at no. 10 because they have played no one including Cal which is over rated and Nova which is really down this year.


REHawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Lots of sad stuff...but some really fine delightful stuff. And another win!


KEITHMILES05 2 years, 4 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.


Steve Yeakel 2 years, 4 months ago

Naadir Tharpe must be having some really big problems, because we have immediate major minutes available for a guard that can pass without turning the ball over, and play good defense. TT and EJ are both horrible right now. TT's game management coming down the home stretch was atrocious.


Tony Bandle 2 years, 4 months ago

From the glass half full perspective:

-we've lost only to the #1 and #5 teams in the country and could have won least one, -are ranked in the Top 15, -have a undermanned team that has been ill and injured,..need to get healthy -are still looking for a team identity -still aren't playing nearly to our potential -currently have the #12 recruiting class for 2102, plus Jamari and BenMac -have a winning record at 6-2 -play in Allen Fieldhouse -Jeff and Conner are turning out to be huge surprises -Kansas is certainly not dull -TRob is looking like an All-American -and we aren't Missouri Tiger fans

Remember Pearl Harbor and the sacrifices that were made the next four years after.


lrahardja 2 years, 4 months ago

LBS gave full court pressure during the first 10 min of the second half, but they didn't really trap our ball handler (perhaps it's not really their intention). Instead, they did a good job filling up the passing lane where many of the TOs occured. Our guards were just too hesitant to attack the full court pressure defense. Perhaps we were just thinking too much not to turn the ball over instead of instinctively attacking the full court defense.

Give credits to LBS coaching, they keep changing their defense strategy, executed well, and it paid off, it slowed down our offense considerably in the second half. Credits to our guys gutted out by trading punches and hold them off for a win.


RockChalk26 2 years, 4 months ago

My beef with this years team. I'm not sure who is at fault for this but it has been driving me crazy.

After made baskets, we are slow at taking the ball out of bounds which allows our opponent to set up their half court defense. By not getting the ball up the floor in a timely manner, we have been settling for cross court passes which have turned into turnovers. And when we do get the ball across half court the shot clock is down to 25 seconds, leaving us less time to run our set plays.

Solution: 1) Get the freaking ball up the court more quickly (don't allow the opponent to get set) 2) Clear out, let the point guard break the press (you can't tell me EJ or TT can't beat their defenders off the dribble) 3) Change you press breaking play (back and forth passes down the floor are not effective)

I guess I'm getting tired of watching other teams bring the ball up the floor with such ease. We are #13 in the country and have difficulty getting the ball past half court. Something has to change.

On a positive note: It was fun watch T-rob scorch the net last night. The guy was on fire!


jrbill67 2 years, 4 months ago

Everyone needs a reset. This is not a typical Jayhawk team and the results will show it this year. Taylor's a senior and plays like a freshman; Johnson looks up to Taylor and he is modeling his game after Tyshawn's, a huge mistake. To make matters worse, there is no bench so the starters are dragging at the end and make mistakes they might not make in the beginning of the game. They've won a few games this year because of Self, the best coach in the Big 12, and they will win their share in the Big 12, but there are going to be some miserable performances. Lower your expectations, get a beer, and enjoy the chaos.


southwindjay 2 years, 4 months ago

If your turnovers are correctable TT you better start correcting!


Yolanda Gay 2 years, 4 months ago

I think if TT hasn't gotten it by now, he's not going to get it. The TT we see is what we're stuck with the rest of the season. I'm not sure what's going on with EJ. At the beginning of the season Self had very high praises for EJ and said this would be his year. He had a great game in Hawaii; but for the most part, I'm not seeing why Self had high praises for EJ? I don't totally fault EJ. During his first 2 years, he didn't see the court much. We should have been developing him all along. NT didn't play due to coaches decision. If he doesn't start seeing some playing time, we're going to be in the same boat next year.

My surprise of the year is JW. He's missed some easy buckets and I think he has soft hands but when he's out there, he's playing within his talent (i.e. rebounding and block shots). Danny Manning is truely a great big-man's coach. It will be GREAT if T-Rob can hit those perimeter jumpers consistently. He will be unstoppable if he does!


William Blake 2 years, 4 months ago

Okay.... this is the post I'd like everyone to remember from me. It's the post where I criticize Coach Self and prove I'm more than just a Coach Self worshiper.

I see a coaching flaw and it is sticking out like a sore thumb.

What is the #1 philosophical comment CS uses to describe his offense?

"Don't let the ball stick!"

We've been hearing this statement throughout CS's tenure at KU.

There is one big problem with this philosophy; it creates the potential for outrageously high TOs if other key teachings are not in place. At the top of that list is where we are creating the environment for high TOs, and I can tell you right now if we don't fix this we are headed into record-breaking TO stats for this team.

  1. The player without the ball has to create the proper angle and spacing so the passer can make a safe pass.

  2. The player without the ball has to out-hustle the defender for the ball.

The first teaching statement is by far the most-crucial... however... if a player does both he will not lose many balls to even the best defenders. If we get this right, we will go toe-to-toe with the Kentucky's in March...

We are not doing this now. So anytime teams play us tight and have decent speed, we get our lunch eating by TOs.

Our passers are stuck... and what is the first rule about "Self-ball" on offense? That's right... don't let the ball get stuck!

You can see this problem in many of our turnovers because you should notice by now how unnatural some of these TOs are looking. Our passers are often throwing the ball directly to defenders because they are doing what they were taught above all else: don't let the ball stick. Meanwhile, the defenders realize this and over-extend their defense. I don't know how many times I have watched our passers throw the ball to someone who is less open than the defender!

We either have to compromise our ball-movement speed, or everyone without the ball has to put more energy into being open.

Some of this definitely relates to conditioning... and this team is not the best conditioned Jayhawk team we have ever put on the court. Add the fact that our starters are pulling 35 minutes and you have fatigue. Fatigue = TOs

When the TOs start happening you can also see our team esteem sink... hence the huge drop in point production and rut periods in the game.

I'm not the only one that noticed we only scored 9 points the first 10 minutes of the second half.. am I?

These boys need to spend their Christmas running marathons through snow... and working on fundamentals.

I remember being coached the importance of getting open and meeting the ball on the pass. Game stats were kept a bit different. When there was a TO and you were on the receiving end of what should have been a completed pass you were given a TO, too... so the passer and the receiver both received a TO.

Jesse... this could be a new stat for you to keep.


hihawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Recruiting, I have said that from the start and it all started with the recruiting of Morningstar and Reed which was the start of the down fall of Self's recruiting. Morninstar was the worst player ever to play for the hawks in the past 10 years. With this team playing Ohio ST. and the way they throw the ball away with bad passes means that KU is in trouble, real trouble. Missouri and Kansas ST. look to be the front runners this year for the conderence. The conference isn't going through KU this year. Like Dick Vitale said the other day, "this is the worst KU team I have ever seen". Self has fallen down real bad in recruiting the past 4 years and now it's going to caught up on the floor in the guards position, of which was the problem last year with Morningstar and Reed. ' With the football team being the laughing stock of the nation and now do we have the basketball program taking the same route with Self. It is nice to have Kansas ST. to represent the state with its football program and Bill Snyder as the Big 12 Coach Of The Year. Kansas St. volleyball program knocking off NU and all their success being in the NCAA tournment. Kansas ST. basketball, mens and womens teams with great coaches. Doesn't look good for the KU basketball team with the way things are going at the present.


BCRavenJHawkfan 2 years, 4 months ago

It would also help for guys to be moving toward the pass instead of away from it.

And I would really like to know what Long Beach's coach was yelling about to Self at the end of the game.


Justin Carlson 2 years, 4 months ago

I know Thatpe is a freshman and will not show flashes of offensive greatness, but why is he not getting any minutes when as stated by BS and above our guards can't make the simple 3rd grade girls basketball clinic pass!

Tharpe right now is the most impressionable/moldable player on the team!!

BS speaks "Tharpe take care of the ball, feed the post, attack the lane if it is open, always look to pass, never force a shot, only shoot the 3 on ball reversal or dump down and kick out, and above all else play defense like you are posessed!!"

I doubt he would have a negative assist / turnovers even if he was dead even it cant get any worse!

I just feel we are wasting a guard that can be told This is your 5 offensive game rules 1. pass 2. pass 3 pass 4 pass 5 wide open layup....ok shoot that. I am sure 4 pts 6/7 assists and 3 TO's in 20 minutes is better than the bench!

Your thoughts??


nuleafjhawk 2 years, 4 months ago

To the people who say that Self is responsible for this team's poor play. Mmmmm. Not so sure. Does that mean that he gets all the credit when they play well too?

If any of you are parents, it is 100% your fault when your kids mess up. They have no mind of their own, no capability of being responsible for their own actions - you're just a bad parent when they mess up. Of course, you're a good parent when they do well. Choose your spouse carefully so you can sire perfect children.....

If you're an employer - be cautioned. If your employees screw up, it's because you're a bad boss. Be very careful who you hire......

Yes, Self recruited them. He can't make them make good decisions. Can't make them throw accurate passes. Can't keep them from dribbling the ball off their foot or taking bad shots.

He'll get it figured out. But he could sure use some help. The players might actually want to try applying themselves and making themselves better. They could actually THINK about what they're doing, instead of playing without focus and letting the fans blame it on the coach.


Robert Brock 2 years, 4 months ago

I don't understand what is going on with Elijah Johnson. Maybe he is ill.


Jack Wilson 2 years, 4 months ago

Had to DVR and watch late -- 1) I have to say that this was perhaps Tharpe's best game. He had zero turnovers, made zero mistakes. Didn't have any negative impact on the game at all. It's good to see a kid like that, particularly on a team like this with very little depth, have the opportunity to get his legs under him in game like this, in advance of Ohio St. In his minutes this season, he has 8 assists and just 4 turnovers. While that 2-1 ratio is pretty good, we can't say that it's better than what we've been seeing. 2) Seriously .. Tharpe doesn't get 8-10 minutes? Heard it was a coach's decision. Wonder why .. if there is something else there besides performance? Also was wondering ... just based on history ... if TT not starting really was based on him tweaking his knee (since he did play 34 minutes). 3) Self says “We are the worst passing team I have ever seen,” -- as quoted above. I have to comment on that. I say to coach Self .. you have created this monster. This is your baby. TT in particular. Self has started him for four seasons. What about this is a surprise? But TT is not the only offender. This is a team effort throwing the ball around. 4) How much is this team (or last year's team) being held back by not having a point guard that can consistently deliver scoring opportunities? Note Phil Pressey's 12 assists for MU last night. Or watch UNC's point guard. Lots of examples. I've been on this bandwagon for way too long. It's a handicap to the offense. 5) Withey said in the KC Star that we are "just so young." This is not a "young" team. Some inexperience? Of course, most every team has that. But this is a team of upper-classmen. The way we handle the ball, we look like a team of K-State freshmen and sophomores. 6) On Taylor, though, he did make some big plays. Important plays. The "enigma machine" -- just keeps cranking along. 7) Withey;TRob each played a complete game. 8) Young did not look lost in his 5 minutes; actually looked ok on the defensive end.

This is a streaky, streaky team. Can explode anytime, can implode anytime.


kupride4u 2 years, 4 months ago

Any idea what Munson was so upset about with Self after the game? Looked like he was ready to lay into him a little bit when they were shaking hands after the game, but the cameras didn't cover it long enough.


Robert Murphy 2 years, 4 months ago

It's just like Bill Self to put a pretty face on this great performance. As long as Bill keeps looking through rose colored glasses it's hard to see this team improve. One last word to Jeff Withey DO NOT DRIBBLE THE BALL. Yesterday the Missouri Tigers looked like poetry in motion. Kansas looked like harem scarem.


IrishDaddy 2 years, 4 months ago

"Our Offense SUCKS"

OUCH, thats just plain nasty (some may say Obscene) !


HAWKTOPIA 2 years, 4 months ago

HCBS needs to take more of the responsibity. it was easy to see the guards split and rely on cross court passes. With LBS's aggressive D, the guards were being forced to the side. There were no picks, no near ball support, no high big, just a support guard hugging the far sideline. Also, when we penitrated or passed inside, and the ball would come back out, we were never ready to shoot (except the very start of the game). These 3 point shots approx level to the free throw line must be drained! And when the other team is shooting 3's whithey must make the shooter step back with his cover behind the pick. when the ball is in a players hands you cannot think, making it look like you were there to defend is defending. Every time we had two guys near the ball, they either pulled up and drained it, or passed to the other mans cover for a stand up 3.

Coach, there is more wrong here than the guards throwing the ball away. tt has been doing that for years.

on a better note, we time and time again let teams bring us to the fatal choke zone, and work out of it. except Duke and Kentucky. While we suffer total possession lapses, we are going to the line and sinking free throws, even at the final minutes, and that wins games.

Put in two guards that want to support each other with picks and proximity, and tell them to take it to the hole! or dish or pass the corner for a 3. its not that hard. If our point guard cannot take it up the middle, get another one out there.


FLJHK 2 years, 4 months ago

Very worthy criticism by coach Self. That being said, TRob is freak of nature good, Withey FAR better than advertised, and Teahan deserved a game ball for his clutch play last night. Lots of work to do, but the ceiling for this team is far higher than I had anticipated.


tis4tim 2 years, 4 months ago

This year's edition is about as manic a squad as I can recall. Games ebb and flow and momentum shifts, but to score 51 points in the first half followed by 6 points in the first 8 minutes of the second half ... maybe we should slip some Lithium into the Gatorade. But give LBS credit. That's a senior-laden team with guys who have played together for four years. They can pretty much complete each others' sentences and they're going to give other teams fits all season. Just ask Pitt.

As for TT, he can still surprise. The problem is I never know whether it will be due to brilliance or bone-headedness. After four years, I just have to believe that we're stuck with his Jekyll and Hyde routine for the remainder of his days at KU. Let's just hope the brilliance shines through when we need it and the bone-headedness happens when it doesn't matter.

For the record, Teahan is my player of the game. Robinson was his usual bad self and Withey was extremely impressive (and is slowly becoming one of my favorites), but Teahan's 4 3's in the first half set the tone for the game and his two offensive rebounds in the latter stages, may have saved it. Dare I say maybe we should start him from here on out?

One last thing: does anybody have any idea what Coach Monson was jawing about during the congratulatory handshake with Coach Self? He seemed a bit perturbed with something and it looked like he was letting Self know about it. It just felt a bit more spirited than the usual formalities. Just wondering ...


ahpersecoachingexperience 2 years, 4 months ago

Telling you, he and EJ (gee, where is he from?) are point shaving. EJ fouling out with 5 minutes left. Your senior point guard missing two free throws late then getting a push off called on him in his own backcourt. . .


AsadZ 2 years, 4 months ago

At the beginning of this season HCBS had said that fans better be ready for some grind out wins. Boy this team has taken it to the next level. I just can't imagine such a sloppy play, especially from our experienced players/guards. Could fatigue be a factor in addition to mental lapses? May be. But, boy, this height of sloppiness is unbelieveable.

On a positive note I was really impressed by Withey. He was our best player last night. He was a force especially on D. His presence in the paint saved use many points. It is great to see development in his game and he is getting confident. He was last night's Hawk to Rock. Great Job Big Fella.


Jayhawks Rock 2 years, 4 months ago

Not sure what happened. Sorry guys.


Jayhawks Rock 2 years, 4 months ago

On a positive note, Robinson is getting better at not trying to force the shot and passing out of coverage. He is still doing it, but looking better. I continue to be amazed at JW. I thought he would average nearly a double double for us with 3-4 blocks/game if he could stay out of foul trouble. This game made me believe again. A very young team (experience) that commits silly fouls and doesn't understand passing angles, but scrappy. I wonder if JW can be the leader. He passes reasonably well and pumps up the team when he shows passion. We really need someone to step up. I still enjoyed the game even though the play was sloppy. Remember that, for all of their talent, these are still just kids. RCJH go KU!


Jayhawks Rock 2 years, 4 months ago

On a positive note, Robinson is getting better at not trying to force the shot and passing out of coverage. He is still doing it, but looking better. I continue to be amazed at JW. I thought he would average nearly a double double for us with 3-4 blocks/game if he could stay out of foul trouble. This game made me believe again. A very young team (experience) that commits silly fouls and doesn't understand passing angles, but scrappy. I wonder if JW can be the leader. He passes reasonably well and pumps up the team when he shows passion. We really need someone to step up. I still enjoyed the game even though the play was sloppy. Remember that, for all of their talent, these are still just kids. RCJH go KU!


Jayhawks Rock 2 years, 4 months ago

On a positive note, Robinson is getting better at not trying to force the shot and passing out of coverage. He is still doing it, but looking better. I continue to be amazed at JW. I thought he would average nearly a double double for us with 3-4 blocks/game if he could stay out of foul trouble. This game made me believe again. A very young team (experience) that commits silly fouls and doesn't understand passing angles, but scrappy. I wonder if JW can be the leader. He passes reasonably well and pumps up the team when he shows passion. We really need someone to step up. I still enjoyed the game even though the play was sloppy. Remember that, for all of their talent, these are still just kids. RCJH go KU!


Jayhawks Rock 2 years, 4 months ago

On a positive note, Robinson is getting better at not trying to force the shot and passing out of coverage. He is still doing it, but looking better. I continue to be amazed at JW. I thought he would average nearly a double double for us with 3-4 blocks/game if he could stay out of foul trouble. This game made me believe again. A very young team (experience) that commits silly fouls and doesn't understand passing angles, but scrappy. I wonder if JW can be the leader. He passes reasonably well and pumps up the team when he shows passion. We really need someone to step up. I still enjoyed the game even though the play was sloppy. Remember that, for all of their talent, these are still just kids. RCJH go KU!


Jayhawks Rock 2 years, 4 months ago

On a positive note, Robinson is getting better at not trying to force the shot and passing out of coverage. He is still doing it, but looking better. I continue to be amazed at JW. I thought he would average nearly a double double for us with 3-4 blocks/game if he could stay out of foul trouble. This game made me believe again. A very young team (experience) that commits silly fouls and doesn't understand passing angles, but scrappy. I wonder if JW can be the leader. He passes reasonably well and pumps up the team when he shows passion. We really need someone to step up. I still enjoyed the game even though the play was sloppy. Remember that, for all of their talent, these are still just kids. RCJH go KU!


Dyrk Dugan 2 years, 4 months ago

One question about our guard play and passing and the like (BTW, TRob made one of the TOs late....and Withey for some reason tried to make two foot passes right to the Long Beach team after it's everyone)....where is Elijah Johnson?

he must start getting ready to play. I mean seriously....where is he? He fouled out last night with six or seven minutes left? a guard fouls out that early in a home game? We can't have EJ play like this and be a good team....just can't. and just six points.

I go back to when we lost to UK...when Teahan (bless his heart last night, he was the difference in the game) and Wesley combine for more points than Releford and Johnson.....we're in trouble. last night? 16 and 16....and we definitely never iced it...and should have won by 14 or 15.

bottom line: this team has flaws...big time flaws that i don't know if they are correctable. Maybe EJ will pull out of it ....i don't know. Tyshawn, God love him, makes you so mad and so happy...all in the same sequence of plays. Releford had good looks last night in the 2nd half from three...and didn't come close.

i know we'll be ready to play the OSU on Saturday....i just don't think we're good enough right now to beat them. and they could beat us bad 15 or more. Let's just hope some ball handling drills are emphasized this week....i'm sure Coach Self might include it.


jhox 2 years, 4 months ago

If I was coaching against us, I'd tell my guards to over play every single pass. We never look to go back door. We are bad in need of one practice devoted to nothing else but looking for opportunities to go back door on teams. If we just did that we would beat Ohio State on Saturday, because you know they're being told to over play every pass we throw.


Martin Rosenblum 2 years, 4 months ago

I like the challenge that he threw down with his comment about the ESPN Top Ten Plays. I'm sure that his guys do not want the embarrasment of seeing themselves on ESPN watching as Ohio State "Top Ten Plays of the Night's" them while they're looking like deer in headlights.


LngTimeFan 2 years, 4 months ago

TT is just a hot dog who doesn't get it after all his time at KU. He seems to think he can turn it on whenever he needs to, which is ridiculous. Every yeat the same problem goes on and on. EJ gets a little bit of a break because he is still learing. TT won't learn because he thinks its not important. Releford still almost always looks lost to me. Withey has worked with the Twins, TRob, and Danny for all of his time here and still does not understand footwork. Bill will just have to hang in there and hold them responsible. Having potential that they do not use or demostrate is no better than being average, which TT is for sure.


Mike Barnhart 2 years, 4 months ago

Gonna' test the patience of the entire Jayhawk nation this year. Hope Coach Self's blood pressure can take it!


JuanValdez 2 years, 4 months ago

With all due respect to coach Self those are the guards he recruited.


nuleafjhawk 2 years, 4 months ago

“We are the worst passing team I have ever seen,”

It’s ridiculous to watch,” Self added. “You can look up and down the lineup, and there’s nobody that values the ball at all.”

Self was so miffed at his team’s passing that he cautioned the fans what they might expect in Saturday’s 2:15 p.m. home battle against No. 2 Ohio State.

“If we handle the ball like that, they can pick the score,” Self said. “Let’s just call it like it is. They will pick the score in our own building if we handle the ball like that. We have to do a better job.

Coach Self, you are my hero. Thank you for saying all that Coach, because if me (or any other poster) would have said the exact same thing - we'd be slammed for being "haters" or "trolls".

When one of the most highly respected coaches in all of college basketball talks about his team like that - it's kind of a big red flag.

We have got the raw talent to play with anyone in the country. We seem to have an extremely low "basketball IQ" this season. Does Withey know that he does not HAVE to bring the ball down after every offensive rebound? Someone might tell him he can actually tip it, dunk it or bank it off the glass while it's still up there over everyone else's heads...... Do we have to telegraph every single pass? Could at least 10% of the time someone use a pump fake?

For as much subpar play as I've seen so far this year, I still have a good feeling that these guys will gel and this schedule will help us in March.


John Mueller 2 years, 4 months ago

I think u guys have covered it.

Many of us said it, early on: You will have to be patient to watch this team.

We have enough talent and ridiculous athleticism at the guard spot, but we appear to have 2 mental midgets right now playing guard.

Hopefully, they will both get it together this season and by the end, we will have a nice team.

Releford is interesting too. Can the guy score, or not? He seems to be afraid to shoot the ball.

Jeff Withey is playing hard. It should be fun to watch his improvement over the season. He is obviously not the athlete than TRob is, but man, he seems to play hard every night.

Be patient, fellow Jayhawks. We are pretty spoiled and this year, we have some kids trying to play a man's game and it won't always be pretty, but i remain optimistic.

But, I don't think you have to be a tremendous athlete to be a good passer. A pinch of anticipation and three scoops of give a crap and you can become a passer. For crype sakes, that's all most of us can contribute, that is why it is so frustrating!!!!


smithy 2 years, 4 months ago

Couldn't have said it better. I was absolutely dumbfounded with a minute + left and we had an 11 or 12 point lead and absolutely threw the ball away, stumbled and fumbled around to the point where it dwindled to 4 points very late. I told my wife that we are going to have to accept the fact that Tyshawn simply cannot help himself.....he just has to do dumb stuff, stuff that drives coaches and fans crazy. Then he will do someting good and folks tend to forget the dumb stuff.....NOT ME! I am frustrated with him to the point that though we need him, sometimes he is an absolute weight around our neck, hell bent on giving the ball away. I truly have no idea what he is thinking but what I now believe is that his basketball IQ is in the lower quartile. Add to that the fact that we absolutely need Elijah to perform like a Big 12 player and he does in spurts then reverts back to barnyard stuff. I fear we are in for a very long year living with guys who do not value the basketball and have far too many empty possessions. Whatever we do in the Big 12 and if we get into the NCAA tournament, we will have a very short life there and we have no one to blame but ourselves.......and not having recruited players capable to be eligible and helping the team. The old saying that KU does not rebuild, they reload is a farce this year. We are a very marginal team, capable of some good things but smply have a death wish. I fear that wish will come true on Saturday.


Bangkok_Jayhawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Would really like to have seen Selby in his second year this year.


Ian Brown 2 years, 4 months ago

I had already posted this in the "Post-game discussion", but I thought it would be more visible here, plus it's quite relevant. It was a response to someones disapproving assessment of Tyshawn's passing. And let me preface it by saying that Self's first statement took the words out of my mouth: "We are the worst passing team I have ever seen." Unfortunately, I am in total agreement with thySelf.

While I agree with you in that I believe Tyshawn needs to "learn" how to pass the ball and value each possession, I disagree when you say, "if Releford can pass the ball with both hands..."

Now I assume you're implying that Releford passes the ball better than Tyshawn, not only in terms of accuracy, but fundamentally as well, and that Tyshawn should take note of it and use Releford as a model... Well, unfortunately, that simply is not so. They both happen to turn the ball over at about the same rate, and it's not good.

They each have a negative assist-to-turnover ratio, both having handed the ball to the opposing team three more times than they've hit a teammate with a pass that resulted in a bucket. (Releford, 15 assist:18 turnovers; Tyshawn, 29:32).

Sadly, it's not just Tyshawn that's turning over the ball at an alarming rate and is simply careless with the ball in general. It's the entire team.

In fact, there are just two players in the regular rotation with a positive ratio. Surprisingly, Elijah has the best assist-to-turnover ratio on the team with a whopping 30:19 ratio, while Teahan has a 9:6 ratio. Everyone else is in the red.

Coach Self said before the season started that focus would be a problem for this team, EJ and Tyshawn in particular, and that wasn't just coach-talk; he was telling the absolute truth. A vast majority of our turnovers are from lazy passes and a number of different mental lapses.

How do you teach/coach focus? I'm not sure. Jaybate might know the answer to that one. But I'm afraid Tyshawn will never be able to harness 100% of his attention and focus it entirely on the play at hand for an entire game. I had high hopes for him prior to the season, but I'm afraid I was quite mistaken. Tyshawn is a better shooter and scorer than he was when he came in as a freshman, but, in my opinion, he has made very little, if any, progress in terms of maturing on the court and improving his ability to maintain focus throughout an entire game.


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