Originally published April 5, 2011 at 12:00a.m., updated April 5, 2011 at 10:01a.m.

Little brother says KU recruit Ben McLemore LeBron-like

Kansas University recruit Ben McLemore smiles as he sits in the crowd for KU's game against Miami (Ohio) University on Jan. 2, 2011.

Kansas University recruit Ben McLemore smiles as he sits in the crowd for KU's game against Miami (Ohio) University on Jan. 2, 2011.


Kevin McLemore stood to the side and watched with pride as his big brother, Ben, orally committed to Kansas University over runner-up Missouri at a news conference Sunday at Sears Centre in suburban Chicago.

“He’s the next up-and-coming star of the family,” cousin Richard Boyd said of Kevin, a sophomore guard from St. Louis’ Normandy High. “Hopefully, in two years we’ll be doing this again.”

It’s too early to tell if Kevin McLemore will emerge as a major-college recruit. One thing’s for sure: He will play college ball if KU-bound Ben has anything to say about it.

“He has helped me a lot. He showed me a couple moves,” Kevin said.

Does Ben remind his little brother of anybody?

“I’d say LeBron James,” Kevin said. “He loves LeBron James. We’ll be going against each other, and he’ll say he’s LeBron James.”

Of course, there’s no way the soft-spoken Ben McLemore, a 6-foot-5 guard out of Houston’s Christian Life Center, would ever hint he is a LeBron in the making.

“I think Ben is one of the most humble, unselfish kids I’ve ever had the pleasure of being around,” said Darius Cobb, McLemore’s AAU coach, formerly of the St. Louis Majestics, now with Missouri Impact.

“You ask me what I expect of him at Kansas his first year. Whatever Bill (Self, KU coach) wants him to do, he’ll do it. If he needs 30 (points), he’ll give him 30. If he needs 15 assists, he’ll give him that. If he needs 40 minutes of defense, he’ll do that. If he needs him to keep stats, he’ll do that,” he added.

Cobb first started working with McLemore when Ben was in the fifth grade. Now Ben is’s No. 17-rated recruit nationally.

“I would say by his eighth-grade, ninth-grade year,” Cobb said of when he knew Ben had major-college potential. “Because everything he did was so smooth and fluent. In sixth, seventh grade, he was a center. I guess everybody thought he’d be the next Shaq,” Cobb added, noting McLemore stood 6-1 at the time.

“He’s a legit 6-6 now,” Cobb said. “I think he’s still growing.”

Cobb said McLemore is a true gym rat.

“That’s the understatement of the day,” Cobb said. “AAU, high school, neighborhood pickup ... wherever he could play, he’d play.”

On one condition.

“As long as he did his schoolwork and housework,” said his mom, Sonya, who goes by the nickname of “Peaches.”

She acknowledge basketball is Ben’s passion.

“For now it is,” she said. “Things can change.”

That’s why, in her mind, “getting a degree would be the first priority. It’s all about the education.”

Which brings us to rumors that McLemore will not qualify academically for a scholarship. His first high school, St. Louis’ Wellston High (where he averaged 28.3 points and 12.7 rebounds as a junior) was closed down by the state after his junior year.

He moved on to Oak Hill Academy in Mouth of Wilson, Va., where he was dismissed this winter for violating undisclosed team rules. Now he’s finishing high school at Christian Life Center.

“Ben has never had academic problems,” Cobb said. “He is like any high school kid who maybe didn’t realize at first the importance (of grades). At the beginning of his junior year, he took his first core courses and did well. I think rumors of him being a nonqualifier might have helped Kansas. Some schools didn’t recruit him.”

Cobb added that he felt Ben would qualify at KU.

As far as Ben’s dismissal at Oak Hill, school officials have never commented on the matter.

“That wasn’t a grade problem. I broke a school rule,” Ben told Cedric Williams of, not identifying the rule. “I didn’t know it was against the rules. But I did it. And I learned a lesson from it. And now I’m just concentrating on getting my grades good so for next year.”

Christian Life Center coach Carlos Wilson said he has been impressed in the short time he’s known McLemore, who averaged 16 points and seven rebounds in six games.

“He’s probably one of the most athletically gifted kids that I’ve ever had the opportunity to coach,” Wilson told “He just got in, and you would have never been able to tell that this kid was a top-20 kid or a kid that was a high-major-caliber kid, because his demeanor didn’t portray that. He got in and worked like he was one of the guys. That was the most impressive thing about him, and that’s why the guys opened up to him so quickly.”

McLemore showed the ability to score inside and out at the NeXt All-America game. He swished five threes in the all-star game’s scrimmage Saturday and slammed a vicious dunk after driving the middle of the lane in overtime of Sunday’s victory.

“I loved his outside touch,” Wilson said of his work at Christian Life Center. “Everybody knows he’s athletic, and he’s a monster athlete, but you don’t have many athletes that are high-level athletes that are also high-level shooters. I’ve been watching him stroke the ball, and I think he’s just as good a shooter as he is an athlete.”

Coach Cobb helps

The McLemore family has praised Cobb for his assistance during the recruiting process.

“Whenever I got headaches, I’d pass it to him, and he’d take it,” Ben’s mom, Sonya, said of Cobb.

He was happy to lend a hand.

“Ben experienced a lot of pressure being a hometown kid. Mizzou had an up-and-coming program and had great coaching there with Mike (Anderson) and Melvin (Watkins). The staff (which has moved on to Arkansas) was very accommodating to Ben and his family. At the same time, he had a lot of people looking at the excitement that Kansas is creating, the national championship, the ability for him to come in and be a premier player.”

Mom loves MU

The McLemore recruiting story might make a good movie some day. Peaches is a passionate Missouri fan who flat-out admits it’s tough for her to accept her son heading to MU’s rival.

“As a mother, I am here to support him,” she said.

Yet the two had some good, old-fashioned family arguments during the recruiting process.

“Were there friendly fights?” she was asked.

“Friendly?” Cobb said with a laugh.

“Yes, we did (argue),” mom said. “It was tough. One thing changed it. He came and said, ‘This is where I want to go.’ As a mom, there’s support here.”

Peaches smiled Sunday when Ben was asked if it was a red-letter day in his young life.

“I’m getting at that age making decisions on my own now,” McLemore said. “It is one of the happiest days of my life. My whole family is with me now. I made my decision. I’m so happy right now.”

McLemore’s nicknames?

B-Mac and Flight School, according to his three sisters.

Josh back home

KU freshman Josh Selby’s Twitter account has several posts revealing he’s back in his hometown of Baltimore this week. Selby has yet to make an announcement on whether he’s to return to KU for a second season or enter the NBA Draft.

Meanwhile, NBA writer Alex Kennedy tweeted on Tuesday that "Josh Selby will enter the NBA Draft and hire an agent, according to sources. He's currently working out at Impact Basketball in Las Vegas."

Selby's mom Maeshon Witherspoon said on Tuesday that reports were not true and no decision on Selby's future had been reached. She said she was "sorry for the speculation" and would report news when any decision had been reached.


kusportsdotcom 10 years, 9 months ago

it amuses me the lack of commitment guys like Selby have to school. if he really is back at home this week, surely he's going to the draft. you can't just skip school... though, i guess if you're a bball player, you can.

hawksfan08 10 years, 9 months ago

If you don't think you can skip class and still pass, you're crazy or haven't been in college in a really, really long time.

orbiter 10 years, 9 months ago

"you just can't skip school..."

hahahahaha. thanks for the laugh.

RockChalk26 10 years, 9 months ago

I would have skipped school too but unlike Selby I had to pay for my education.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree that it shows a lack of commitment. i imagine that the majority of players returning next year are back in class. At least I hope so.

tydon27 10 years, 9 months ago

What's it matter if he misses a couple classes as long as he's passing all his classes. Sounds like he's on the way towards making a decision whether or not he's going.

KU_Alumn_2000 10 years, 9 months ago

My opinion...and I'm not wanting to be negative or judgmental...but Selby would be absolutely nuts to declare for the draft.

B_Real 10 years, 9 months ago

Not nuts but crazy. He needs to look at Kemba Walker who was thought of as a 1 and done player. Just like Selby had a subpar year his freshman year and decided to stay and develop his game at UCONN look at him now. Won a national championship and will be drafted in the lottery and actually be able to contribute right away in the NBA rather than just being a scrub on the bench. (Julian Wright for example).

hawk316 10 years, 9 months ago

Excellent observation, B_Real. Let's hope Josh reads it.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 9 months ago

JW signed a 4 yr contract w/Raptors worth 10 million..not bad for a player who gets about 3 pts & 2 rebounds a game.

Mark Wooden 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree but he needs to leave this program!

selfishhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

What's nuts is that Self has no control over these guys. He's turned the program into a weigh station for questionable character ballers, and then we're all surprised when they act like it. A week after the season and the Morris twins are running around LA with an agent, Selby's in Baltimore (that's safe!) tweeting, missing classes and acting like Self and his assistants are irrelevant. This is embarassing. I am sure Self will get this under control soon - no wait, he just signed another kid who "wasn't recruited by other schools" because of academic questions and because he was thrown out of a basketball factory. Is this KU basketball????!!!!

kuhawkster 10 years, 9 months ago

Heh, you have never tried to tell a 19 year old kid what to do have you?

If you are so 'embarassed' by KU, find another team to root for....

bad_dog 10 years, 9 months ago

“Ben has never had academic problems,” Cobb said. “He is like any high school kid who maybe didn’t realize at first the importance (of grades). At the beginning of his junior year, he took his first core courses and did well. I think rumors of him being a nonqualifier might have helped Kansas. Some schools didn’t recruit him.”

Repeat: "Ben has never had academic problems." "...rumors of him being a nonqualifier might have helped Kansas." "Some schools didn't recruit him." None of that sounds like academic questions or the blanket generalization Ben "wasn't recruited by other schools" as you assert. Just dumb old Coach Self and crew recruited him, I guess.

Oh and BTW, it's "way station", a stop over point as opposed to a place truckers have their cargo weighed.

Bruce Brock 10 years, 9 months ago

Lol, Andrea Hudy is the person in charge of KU's weigh station. I bet she wears overalls and a greasy 'Dekalb Seeds' baseball hat to work every day.

selfishhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

It's called a double entendre. Look it up. In the future I will be more expository so that you can follow.

bad_dog 10 years, 9 months ago

Well selfishhawk, if you hadn't just demonstrated a complete lack of reading comprehension, perhaps I might be inclined to believe your use of "weigh" rather than "way" was intended to be a play on words; nonsensical though it may be. If this is a double entendre, it is apparently bereft of any logical basis or comedic relation. What you typed are examples of homophones that differ in spelling. While you're looking up the true meaning of double entendre you might want to check that out as well.

Brad Boline 10 years, 9 months ago

what a dumb post, KU has only had 1 one and done, Julian was a sophomore, other than that everone has been a junior or senior. Please stop posting SELFISHHAWK.

selfishhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

I didn't say anything specifically about one and done. Please start reading, Brad.

Hank Cross 10 years, 9 months ago

Not the best choice, but not irrational. Self has has said that his preferred rotation is 5 perimeter players and 4 bigs. As of now there are 6 perimeter players that will be fighting for minutes - TT, EJ, Travis, Selby, Tharp and Ben. So why risk being the odd-man out, especially if he gets injured again? Also, with TT and EJ still there, how many minutes could he really expect at the point?

He does run a huge risk of being a half-baked experiment in the NBA who is discarded after a couple of years, but staying would not necessarily ensure his development either.

KUDUDE 10 years, 9 months ago


KEITHMILES05 10 years, 9 months ago

Josh hiring and agent is beyond stupid. Please Josh........consider the full ramifications of what you are doing. Whoever you are listening to is leading you down the wrong path. I will never, ever believe Self would give his blessing.

jhox 10 years, 9 months ago

I've rarely, if ever, strongly disagreed with a KU players decision of when to go pro, but if Selby makes that decision it is likely a huge mistake. Some of these kids have absolutely no concept of how short a time one additional year really is. If Josh comes back, he will have the opportunity to put up big numbers and improve his draft stock significantly. If he leaves early, I can't image that he's going to be better than early second round. Unfortunately, these kids have have friends and potential agents whispering in their ears and telling them they're sure fire first rounders, and the kids believe it. If Josh goes pro, I hope he is able to turn heads in the pre draft camps. Otherwise he's in for a big disaapointment.

I can't say I'm surprised though, that he might want to leave early.. I saw his body language several times late in the season when he was clearly on a short leash. It had the unmistakable look of he and Self butting heads. In hindsight, I wish Self had let him play through his mistakes. While it may have cost us a couple more conference losses, I believe it would have made us a better team by tournament time.

Robinson is another guy who would clearly benefit from another year. With the Morris twins gone, he has a chance to be the man, and elevate himself into a lottery pick. Unfortunately for him, his family situation is tough, so it would be hard to blame him if he declares early. Still, I can't help but feel that's another situation in which a kid doesn't have any concept about how short a time one year really is. It would be well worth his investment to stay.

NebraskaJayhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with what you said about Selby. However, I think Robinson is looking out for his family if he goes pro and you really can't blame him. As much as I would like to see him in a Kansas uniform for another 2 years, I don't really see it happening. I'm sure his knee injury this season kind of shed a little light on the reality of possibly going down with a career ending injury and shattering any dream he ever had of playing in the NBA. That said, I do think you're right that another year would improve his stock and may very well pay off big for him.

AsadZ 10 years, 9 months ago

In hindsight, I wish Self had let him play through his mistakes.

I disagree on this point. I think HCBS let him play throughout his mistakes. While a loss cant be blamed on one player, Selbys awful play did a lot of damage against VCU. Self wanted Josh to play more but he was injured and just could not play in earlier games. Self did everything possible to get him max playing time.

I think you should read the article from Jesse Newell in which he had given some stats and figures on our loss to VCU. You will see Josh's negative impact very clearly.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 9 months ago

I think you are way, way off on two points.

First, coach Self did not let him play through his mistakes. Coach Self pulls guys routinely on mistakes, some more than others; and then lets guys just sit on the bench. Self's focus is much more on the game at hand, and not the big picture. UConn is a terrific example of a young team that had some major conference downers .. losing 9 conference games; while coach Calhoun let them play through their youth and inexperience. I'm wondering aloud .. again .. whether KU fans would have taken a few more regular season losses in exchange for developing the more overall talented players .. Releford, Selby, and EJ over Morningstar and Reed .. so they would be ready for March. I know UConn is glad they did and they, I"m sure, don't care that they lost 9 games.

Second, your reference to Selby's negative impact on the VCU game? Seriously? You need look no further than Self's constricted rotation, and then look at the 3 point shooting of Reed, Morningstar, and Taylor .. guys that played 34, 32, and 33 minutes respectively. And positions on the floor where we expect and need 3 point shooting. Selby played 15 minutes, and no other sub played more than 6 minutes.

John Boyle 10 years, 9 months ago

"Self's focus is much more on the game at hand, and not the big picture" Are you really stupid enough to believe your own load of crap? As for Selby, he tried to let him play through his errors but it is not fair to everyone else on the team to let him single handedly lose games because he was just flat out not very good. What part of his game did he show? His outside shooting was not good in most games, his ball handling wasn't good, his decision making wasn't good. It seems he got caught up with all his hype and actually thought he was as good as the "experts" said. Unforetunately, he wasn't.

cklarock 10 years, 9 months ago

Sorry HighEliteMajor, Josh was our worst player in a game where there was plenty of bad play going around.

We were all hoping that the light would come on for him before our last game, and if it had, we'd be calling Coach a man-management genius. But it didn't, and with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we would have been better had Josh played less minutes in that final game. If Coach had an achilles heel this season, it was shortening his rotation and leaving an under-performing freshman in it.

The good news is we're going to continue to be an 30-win basketball program so long as Coach and his staff sustain their high level of work.

AsadZ 10 years, 9 months ago

Please read below story by Jesse Newell who is one of the most respected writers on KUSports staff.

Below are some stats shown by Jesse on Selby's perf: In a game full of bad performances, Josh Selby’s was the worst.The freshman posted just 0.57 points per possession used while ending 11.7 percent of KU’s possessions. In 15 minutes, he also had no rebounds, no assists, no steals and no turnovers.

There’s some debate on the usefulness of the plus-minus statistic, but Selby’s was so bad on Sunday that it’s hard to ignore.

During his 15 minutes on the court, KU was outscored 35-15. That also means, in his 25 minutes off the court, KU outscored VCU by 10.

The play-by-play makes things look even worse.

Selby checked into the game at the 13:38 mark of the first half with KU trailing 12-10. When he left the court at the 9:48 mark, KU trailed 20-10.

Then, in the second half, Selby checked in at the 13:11 mark with KU trailing 46-44. When Selby checked out at the 8:48 mark, KU trailed 57-47.That’s not all on Selby, obviously. He was part of some funky rotations then, and he was one of only five players out there.

That doesn't change the fact that he was on the court for two of the most important stretches of Sunday’s game. And during those nine minutes, KU was outscored 19-3.

Kye Clark 10 years, 9 months ago

I know some others are disagreeing with you, but I agree with both assessments. Self's biggest drawback, in my opinion, is that he doesn't develop talent in games unless forced. The biggest thing the '08 championship team had going for it was that Self was forced to develop all those players the previous two seasons when they were Freshmen & Sophomores, because there were no safe alternatives. That could be the silver lining in having major turnover within the roster the next couple of seasons, particularly considering the abundance of talent in next year's recruiting class, which I am hopeful Self can snag some of that talent. So next year could be very reminiscent of the '05-'06 season - a very green team struggling in a loaded field at Maui to start the year, and hopefully down the line benefiting from having to play through their mistakes.

For whatever reasons (being white Kansas kids who stayed all 4 years probably having a lot to do with it), placing any blame on Brady or Tyrel is sacrilege to a lot of fans. I do think Selby played awful in that game, but to single him out when there were so many bad performances is pretty off-base.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 9 months ago

Self needs to give his Fr. stars a longer leash. This is the main issue on which I disagree w/Self's coaching style.

duanep5ku 10 years, 9 months ago

Hi Ben and family welcome to KU I'm glad you chose to come to Kansas and I would also like to add a special thank you to your mom for her support in your decision to join the Kansas team.

I know Sonya if you are a die hard MU fan that would be a tough pill to swallow for a Missouri fan but Sonya I would like to say thank you for allowing Ben to come to KU even though it was a tough call on your part.

Kevin, good luck in High School and maybe some day you will also achieve your goals to play college ball like your brother Ben.

KU-Alum- I have to agree with your Selby sentiment too because Josh should not go NBA this year but if he does go I still wish him the best but At-least finish the school year out Josh.

KU fan in the know I have a question to ask is their not a penalty if he does not complete the year?

hawk316 10 years, 9 months ago

The more I read about Ben, the better I like him! And I'm not just referring to his athletic ability. I love what I'm reading about his character. This sounds like the kind of kid we want at KU!

eastcoasthawk 10 years, 9 months ago

If we are able to fill some bigs slots next year and Ben can play like Lamb did for UConn we will have a solid team next year. I just hope TRob stays. He will be a monster next year. Josh could definitely use another year or two of playing NCAA ball.

Looking forward to seeing Ben play!

keith horinek 10 years, 9 months ago

Congratulations to Ben, he made the correct decision and he will not regret it. There is a very good possibility there could be a lock out in the NBA next year. If so, going into the draft not knowing where you will go is a big gamble for selby and the twins. They would be better off staying put for now. There are a lot of good kids staying in college this year because of the rumors of a lockout.

phi4life940 10 years, 9 months ago

Congrats Ben! You won't regret it when you scrimmage at late night!

Peaches- once you come to your first game and we chant "Thank you Peaches!" you'll love KU!

bradynsdad 10 years, 9 months ago

It's not that big of deal to miss class as long as self knows. I think Josh will stay. He has the potential along with trob this year to be the man. Not one NBA scout could legitimately look at Josh after this year and think he is ready for the NBA. Having said that if he goes I would understand. His family is not in the best situation financially. If we only lose the twins to the draft I think we still have the potential to be very dominant. Can someone answer me a question? If Daniels was trying to enroll at ku but just couldn't get financial aid then why didn't he go ahead and orally commit at least?

Andy Rieger 10 years, 9 months ago

Is it just me or does this year's potential NBA crop at KU have a complete lack of trust and total disrepect for HCBS? It seems like these types of actions never occur until after the player meetings (Selby skipping class and Morris brothers in LA getting bottle service with an agent). It's a new era of kids I guess, likely for the worse...unfortunately

Thank you Thomas for being genuine to the process and allowing you head coach to complete his due diligence for you. That is how success begins, with TRUST.

jayhawktalk 10 years, 9 months ago

I would withhold judgment until you can base it on facts, rather than speculation.

You may be right, you may not, but I think it best to give the kids the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

def not just you. The Morrii are thugs and Selby is an overcoddled wuss

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 9 months ago

'The Morrii are thugs'

Thugs? Really? Their behavior over the course of 3 years is hardly 'thugish'. They made mistakes and paid the penalty. If they were white, would you find a different term than 'thugs'?

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

oh my god dude, dont make this a race thing b/c it definitely is not. Thug might have been a bit strong since I dont know of any off the court trouble they have gotten into, but it has nothing to do with race. Dont go there

Ill say this though, they run their mouths constantly and throw elbows around like nobody is watching so Ill rephrase and say that they are on-the-court-thugs.

And if they were white, I would still call them thugs if they acted like that. Thug is not racial at all and if you are saying that you think thug is an inherently black term than I think its you who is racist

selfishhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

It's not a new era of kids, per se, it's a new era of kids who Self has brought to KU. Check the news and see if you can find any of Coach K's or Roy's kids running around like rap moguls a week after the season. It's a product of the type of kids we have on campus- not all of them (thanks, TRob et al.) - but enough to be embarassing. And here's betting that TT would be right there with them, keeping his name out ja mouth, if it were possible.

KULA 10 years, 9 months ago

Maybe they've lost trust and respect for him after two almost identical seasons that end embarrassingly in the tournament

Ty Mar 10 years, 9 months ago

Maybe i'm going crazy but that comment made me ROFL KULA...because..i found myself is wrong w/ me?

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

if Selby leaves, he's an idiot. There is NO WAY that kid is gonna be a first round pick...NO WAY. And with the lockout looming, he could get drafted in the second round, not get a training camp at all, then basically never break an NBA rotation b/c he wont be ready to take a veteran's place in a shortened season where every single game counts. He'll either end up riding pine for a year or playing in the D-league. This would be a bad decision.
T-Rob on the other hand, is a totally different story. We all know about his family motivations (without which I dont even think he would be considering the draft) but this is also a good draft for him to come out in b/c of the total lack of quality big men. He may not be a lotter pick, but he could actually contribute bench minutes next year and not have the year be a complete waste. Having said that, I still think he has more to gain by coming back. I think the problem with Selby is that he came in to be a one and done and he's got that firmly in his playing more than a season makes him a failure. I think Self completely mismanaged this kid but he did have a tough season otherwise too. I just think we tried way to hard to win the conf. regular season rather than developing guys and rotations for the post season. Selby was barely a part of the team after coming back from injury. I wouldnt be surprised if the kid just didnt have confidence in Coach to get him the looks he needs. Especially if he's looking at the Tyshawn Taylor and Elijah Johnson situations. Self is a great coach and I love his offense, but it isnt for everyone and he doesnt have a very good track record of putting out quality NBA point guards. That would be a big concern if Im selby especially since he has Tharpe coming in next year too. I mean, where is he gonna get minutes between him, TT, EJ, and now Tharpe?

Mel Clare 10 years, 9 months ago

He was part of the team but a small part because his play was not good. I do agree he needs to come back, if he wants more time playing then he needs to step up and make it happen, Like Self says your minutes are a direct result of have to earn it. He is not ready for the NBA right now.

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

I know he didnt play very well coming back from the injury, but thats kind of my point: CS needs to let kids fail more, thats how they develop. I would have sacrificed wins in those last few games if it would have helped Selby get back on track before the tourney. In stead, every time Selby stepped on the court he was tight and you could tell he had a short leash. As a result, he never got his game going again b/c he wasnt loose. He's not ready for the NBA, I agree, but I think he could have been managed and developed more this year. I would have felt much better with Releford and Selby on the court than I did with Morningstar and Reed getting all the minutes they got. Hopefully he stays tough, b/c I have no doubt that he is an elite talent if given the opportunity to be one.

Jabez Harlan 10 years, 9 months ago

"Bill Self doesn't have a very good track record of putting out premiere point guards."

Does Deron Williams ring a bell?

gutter 10 years, 9 months ago

Seriously? I think you need to give Weber and Sloan more credit for Williams than you do Self. Don't you?

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

exactly! Self recruited him but he didnt develop him at all. dumb comment

Mel Clare 10 years, 9 months ago

Selby should return to the Hawks and play some B Ball.............this year for him sucked and remember what happened to Sherron last year...undrafted, then cut............and Selby is NOT as good as Sherron is at this time..............he needs more school...............

Jack Wilson 10 years, 9 months ago

I am wondering if KU fans saw the game last night .. saw the impact of freshmen for UConn .. saw a team that lost 9 regular season games .. saw a team that took some regular season lumps but let its younger players develop during the season. I am quite sure that none of the UConn fans even care that they went 9-9 in the Big East, nor do they care that they didn't win the conference regular season title.

Could Selby have possibly been handled in different way? He's the same guy that dropped 21 on USC in his first game. How does one go from the top player in the country, or at least top 5, to really a zero? We give props to Danny Manning for developing our bigs. But why do we shy away when it goes the other way?

Could Selby, if he had been developed and handled differently, been a better option in the VCU game than Brady Morningstar? Or than an injured Tyrel Reed?

Or how about Releford? 6-6. Slasher. Decent 3-ball. Self started him to begin the season. Self commented on his defensive abilities, and it was easy to see he was a very good wing defender. A much different skill set than Morningstar or Reed.

Maybe EJ? Only really got his chance when TT broke team rules. Then he was our "best" on ball defender according to Self. He didn't turn the ball over. And had a decent shot from behind the arc. Then vs. VCU he gets 6 minutes.

You all realize that, really, the margin between beating VCU and winning the national title was very thin .. we were "out-athleted" vs. VCU. Slow Brady. Slow Reed (due to his injury). And when their shots didn't fall, they had really littled value. But Self stuck with them. He did not commit during the season to developing his better players .. Selby and Releford .. and discarded EJ even after he proved himself.

KU, as a number one seed, loses two seasons in a row .. first to UNI and then to VCU. Repeat that. And, if you can't see what caused both failures, you may be drinking the same Kool-Aid that coach Self is ... because we surely haven't heard him take one ounce of blame or responsibility for either loss.

Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it .. we've all heard the quote. Nothing more applicable. Learning from one's mistakes is an essential element to great leadership.

justanotherfan 10 years, 9 months ago

Here's the thing - Self knows KU fans.

Remember how KU fans reacted after the Texas loss? Or after the K-State loss?

KU fans panic after any loss, even though one or two or three losses in November, or December, or January or February don't really hurt in the long run.

I think the best approach to this (and I know I am going to hear it for saying this on this board) is what Calipari said last year - I don't care about winning a conference title. This despite the fact that he has won the conference each of the last two years. But he doesn't care about losing in January to South Carolina or Vanderbilt, or losing to Florida or Tennessee in February - as long as he develops his guys to their full potential in time for a tourney run. And true to form, Calipari's teams almost never get upset (if you consider an upset losing to a team seeded 3 or more spots lower).

Self has approached it the last few years the way Roy Williams did. He plays the safest group possible. Tries to minimize the risk, rather than going for the best upside potential.

So I ask the KU fans now - can you stomach a loss to K-State, or Iowa State, or Texas Tech, 4 or 5 conference losses, maybe 1 or 2 non con losses, to put us in a position where our most talented players are the ones that get the most development, or are you wanting to avoid those losses and risk a March upset because our potential gamechangers aren't ready?

hawksfan08 10 years, 9 months ago

We can go 0-31 as long as we finish the season 10-0 (4 big 12 tourney games, 6 ncaa).

Jonathan Allison 10 years, 9 months ago

make that, 4-0 in the big 12 tourney games, and 7-0 in NCAA games, as we'd surely get a first-round game.

Martin Shupert 10 years, 9 months ago

You really think this is an either/or question? We need to win the conference every year. End of discussion. We can do both. This is a paper tiger.

hayjawk 10 years, 9 months ago

I could not disagree more. Are you really comparing Calipari favorably with Coach Self? You do remember who outcoached who in San Antonio?
Further, Kansas will surpass Kty in all time wins (just like it passed by UNC and Roy) while Calipari is at the helm, assuming he doesn't get them so deep into trouble that he is fired in the next couple of years. We are only about 15 games behind and gaining each year. In a couple more years under Coach Self, Kansas will be the winningest team in college basketball history. Then noone can argue that we are not greatest team in college basketball history.
And don't kid yourself, Coach Self is not done winning National Championships. How many has Calipari won? Not as many as he has forfieted seasons.

Jonathan Allison 10 years, 9 months ago

KU is one UK forfieted season away from being the winningest program in NCAA basketball history.

RockChalk26 10 years, 9 months ago

I couldn't agree more with your EJ comment. I see something very special in EJ and 6 minutes in that game was not enough. Especially on a night when Reed and Morningstar go for a combined 2 - 16 from the field.

Hank Cross 10 years, 9 months ago

I know people want Self to change and learn from these mistakes, but I just don't see that happening. There is nothing in his prior history that indicates he has the inclination to experiment or to change.

He played college ball in the same state he was born and raised. He later returned there for his first two head coaching jobs. The furthest he's ever coached from his home state (IL) was still just a long drive from his home state.

He plays a conservative style that he learned in college. A style more suited to a slower team from an earlier era. He repeatedly pulls younger players for the slightest mistakes, but will let his upperclassmen favorites fail repeatedly without any consequence. He acts as if a TO in the ISU game is a crime against humanity.

It's a rare thing for a person to change their basic nature in mid-life, so I don't see Self pulling a Calipari or a Calhoun and sacrificing conference wins to develop players. And as long as that happens, I expect '10 and '11 to be the rule and '08 be the exception.

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

dude, I couldnt agree more. I was SHOCKED that Releford didnt get more run when he came back as well as Selby. Im not sure he could have done more with Selby prior to the injury, but once he came back, Self completely ignored him. It was ridiculous. Im fine with a few regular season losses (although Id like to avoid them being to KState, Mizzou or Texas, but I could live with them I suppose) if it meant more development of our high potential players and more solid rotations come tourney time. The one thing about this team was, as much as we heard about our depth, it never seemed like CS had a good rotation he was always testing things out.
I hate ever having to make positive comparisons to coach cal, but Self really needs to let his players have more room to fail during the season so they arent so tight in the post season I think. Cal does this well as did UConn this season. Really, if you look at all the final four teams, thats what they did. Unless you have a great team (and I mean truly great like our 2008 team), you have to give guys room to fail so they can develop. I was really shocked at how little Selby and Releford were used in the tourney, but you hit the nail on the head - CS never gave these guys enough PT during the season for either them or himself to have confidence in them. That was a mistake. My biggest concern about all this isnt that CS wont get his tourney woes under control, but that this lack of developing high potential guys is going to hurt us in recruiting other guys of similar ilk

gojbirds 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm not sure Selby deserved to play in the VCU game over Reed/Morningstar. He did make it into the game and didn't help us play better. Selby started the season off hot but really checked out after his injury. Remember all of Self's comments about his foot being healed, but not being mentally ready to play more. I think he was more worried about another injury impacting his draft status than contributing to the team. Reed and Morningstar were consistent throughout the season and were more likely to find their stroke in the VCU game than Selby. As far as the entire season is concerned, I don't think Self underdeveloped Selby. He had plenty of opportunities to make the most of his minutes and earn more PT.

Releford apparently never fully recovered from his injury. He was playing well before the sprain and if he was 100% he probably would have seen more action.

I am scratching my head a little on EJ's lack of minutes against VCU other than he was our second option at PG and TT was playing well in that game. Why would you bench TT in that game?

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

no question, TT was the best player in a KU uniform against VCU. But at that point its kind of too late to start relying on Selby. You may be right about his mental readiness post-injury and his draft concerns, but Im not convinced. Everyone likes to give CS a pass, but I dont. Not that I want to nail him to the wall either - I love the guy - but his tournament history is proof that he has some kinks he needs to work out. If were only gonna win with teams that have 6 or 7 future NBA'ers on the team, we arent going to win often b/c CS doesnt get a ton of those guys, not that that is a bad thing necessarily. In my opinion, his use of PGs this year was really a head scratcher - he seemed to have no confidence in or willingness to trust anyone other than TT who, while great in the post-season, was the most inconsistent player on the team during the regular season. I dont have a problem with Reed being out there and being a starter because your right he was by far our most consistent player this year, but you've gotta get Selby and Releford out on that court more before post-season play just have to. I think Selby needs to come back, but I dont know if I would if I were him because it would be hard for me to trust that I was going to get enough opportunities next year with TT, EJ, and now Tharpe all looking for time at the PG spot plus you have Releford and Woolridge looking for time in the G rotation. With CS's lack of confidence in him this year and his short leash as well as what has happened with EJ and our recent PGs' lack of NBA success, I can see why he would really consider leaving even though another year could benefit him greatly.

KULA 10 years, 9 months ago

Add to HEM's post, Bill Self's mismanagement of Mario, playing him at the 4 instead of the 3 so he could give Brady more minutes, and his failure for 2 years now to give Withey the chance to develop into a serviceable 10-15 minute player.

KUbsee69 10 years, 9 months ago

These kids, and their families have had people telling them they're going to be NBA stars for years. They all come to believe that they are going to be the next LaBron. They have no concept of reality. A very few achieve the stardom they quest.

Agents will try to lure them into the fold, because representation is a numbers game. The more you convince to sign, the more potential there is to take your cut. They don't lose anything by signing "potential", because if it works out, the agent make lots of money and if it doesn't, they are not out very much. The player just goes to Europe or works at convenience store. It's just like real estate ... the agents with the most listings are the ones that make the most money, not the ones that sell the most properties.

Now, the head of the NBA Player's Association has said that there is a 99% chance for the lockout. In my book, 99% says it's going to happen. It would be foolish to enter the draft early under those circumstances. I'd bet with the 99% odds anytime.

Anyone with a rational mind can see that Selby is not ready for the NBA. He has not even come up to speed to make a major impact at the college level. The scouts and GMs know that. He'll go low and not even be guaranteed any money, even if there is a season next year.

Frankly, while I'd like to see him stay to develop his potential, and become the player most of us expected, I also won't be too bummed if he declares ... because it's hard to miss something that never was.

Either way, KU will continue to roll.

kkoenig 10 years, 9 months ago

Against USC, Selby shot 5-of-11 from the field with all the makes being three point shots from beyond the arc. If anything, his shot failed him, not his coach's substitutions.

B_Real 10 years, 9 months ago

Currently no but he does have more upside.

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 9 months ago

Good question...I would say yes based on Sherron missing 2 flights to play w/Bobcats. But if you mean when Sherron played his final KU game compared to Selby's then I agree w/B_Real for the same reason.

REHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

The NCAA Tournament is a wild crapshoot. UConn wins with 9 losses and a coach who got slapped down during the season for rules violations. VCU makes a season ending miracle run to the Final Four after finishing 4th in a midmajor conference and somehow weaseling into the tournament over a much more deserving Colorado. Is this the pot at the end of the rainbow that we would sacrifice a conference championship or a coach's integrity to try to attain? In my opinion, those 7 league titles and the clean personal record that Bill Self has posted in his 8 years at the Jayhawk helm is of much more essential value than another national title. Over 30 times in the past two seasons Jayhawk fans have closed the bars or gone off to bed with smiles. It seems that so rarely does the "best" team in the nation ever reach the national title game. Certainly not this season. The banner, national acclaim and financial proceeds are terrific, but I would have to think long and hard as to whether I would trade that banner for a pair of league titles and consistent Top 5 seasonal rankings. Though frustrating closures, these past two seasons have provided splendid basketball for KU players and fans.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 9 months ago

Think hard about trading two conference banners and consistent top 5 for a banner? Right now, if I told you we finished 3rd in the Big 12 in 2010, were never in the top 10, still lost to UNI; lost out to Texas this season, finishing 2nd, 4th, or 5th, whatever, never in the top 10, but just won the national title last night, you wouldn't take that in a minute? If not, we are not on the same planet there. Think hard about that.

You say that rarely the "best" team in the nation reaches the title game.

But look at the last 25 years. Look at the programs that have won titles. All big-time programs. Duke 4, UConn 3, UNC 3, Florida 2, KU 2, Kentucky 2 .. add in Michigan St., Syracuse, Arizona, etc.

The best "programs" get to the title game and win it.

The argument that the tournament is a "crapshoot", while tempting to make, is certainly not a valid excuse for losses to UNI and VCU. Losing to significantly inferior teams isn't acceptable.

I believe our program should aspire to be the top program in the country. Big 12 titles are "fools gold" to use a quote from our coach. Really, would we win 7 straight titles in the ACC or Big East?

Being the top program means titles. And recent history says we're behind UNC, Duke, Florida, Kentucky and UConn.

Jabez Harlan 10 years, 9 months ago

My question to you then is, if Bill Self can't get KU there then who can?

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

Self CAN get there but he has to realize that hes not infallible and make some adjustments which I think he is looking at right now. But if we HAD to get a new coach, isnt the choice obvious? Brad Stevens has accomplished more at Butler than CS ever did at any of his pre-KU stops and he would represent the University and program well. Still rather keep HCBS though

Craig Colgin 10 years, 9 months ago

HEM, Yes, most, if not all of us would take that trade. Here's the problem. YOU cannot gaurantee that!! It's absolutely pure speculation that releford and selby playing all year instead of reed and bstar would lose us a few more regular season games and win a national title. This is just smoke-filled coffee house crap. Nobody knows what would have happened. The only thing I will say, is that moving forward, I would like to see it tried, try developing the young guys, and letting them play thru things. See if that development pays off for us. But, there is still no gaurantee.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 9 months ago

You're right. But it defines your expectations. And as a coach, it defines your approach to the season. What is ultimate goal? And is that goal the main focus of your efforts and approach to the game?

There are no guarantees. Is there a guarantee that we even win the Big 12?

See UConn ..

Craig Colgin 10 years, 9 months ago

Im not saying I disagree with what your saying, HEM. Im onboard with trying to develop the younger players, to see if it works. But, I will say, that there has to be a point at which enough becomes enough. Personally, I think that happened with EJ this year. He just proved to be too unreliable and inconsistent. Next year, he will probably be great. I don't know the solution, but I do agree that a solution is needed. And I also agree that it's a matter of expectations. I won't say that I expect to win the Title every year, but I do expect it to become more of the rule than the exception.

AsadZ 10 years, 9 months ago

Your argument that UConn was developing players while KU was not is not valid as UConn had no other choice but to play the freshmen and sophomores. They did not have Rock Solid seniors like KU had on the roster. Do you think if UConn had the seniors their freshmen would be getting all this PT?

Hank Cross 10 years, 9 months ago

The "conference-championships-are-the-best-measure-of-success" argument is utterly illogical and nonsense. All winning a conference tells you is that you are the best among that small group. You can't draw any further conclusions. By that standard, Utah State is one of the premier programs of the 2010's b/c they've won their conference 4 years in a row.

UConn OTOH beat top teams from the MW, P10, and the SEC on the way to the championship where they played a veteran team that beat other quality opponents from outside their league.

Ludwig Supraphonic 10 years, 9 months ago

Great to follow the line of posts with Caligula and Spitoon provided as boilerplates for KU basketball to this post. Those of you who played, enjoyed being Seniors and team leaders who earned their position through loyalty, hard work, and talent. A quick social promotion of frosh based on speculative potential destroys team chemistry and emasculates senior leadership. Is the recruitment of one-and-dones more important to a program than the contribution of Tyrel or Brady types. Obvious counter-arguments: 1) that model is antiquated in the one-and-done era 2) the season is all prep for a NC run. I was disappointed in the VCU loss. I'm not ready to trade conference championships and being competitive every game for the potential of a UConn type run. I love the KU program and don't think it needs to emulate the style of other programs. A NC is not the only measure of success.

Hank Cross 10 years, 9 months ago

If people want to come in here and say KU is the creme de la creme of of CBB, then pretty much, yeah we need to trade conference banners for NCs. As of this morning, UConn has as many NCAA NCs as KU.

Ludwig Supraphonic 10 years, 9 months ago

The biggest story of NCAA selection day a couple of years ago was not who made it or top seeds. It was weepy Jim and Syracuse's snub, because of the composition of ESPN's staff. I don't expect a Wooden years type dominance by KU would divert anyone from viewing their team or conference as supreme. One Big East team won this year's NC which clearly negates 10 other exits and confirms Big East pre-eminance. Cognitive dissonance allows each of us to select data that fits with our pre-existing beliefs. This is a great forum where we can expose biases and theories and risk little as fans. Fortunately, HCBS has a secure job based in exceptional performance. I like the consistancy of the KU program. Of course, I wish we had beaten the mid-majors in the tournament. I'm not sure a higher-risk approach or adopting another coaching model would markedly improve our program or provide me greater satisfaction as a fan.

Philip Garver 10 years, 9 months ago

I have a question for those of you that criticize HCBS for having a short leash. If he puts Selby in and tells him to set a down screen for one of the twins on the first play and he steps on the floor and throws up a 25 foot jump shot. Then after he misses, he loses his man the next time down the floor on defense for an opposition easy bucket, why shouldn't he yank Josh out of the game?

I saw this scenario more than once this year. Now, I don't have specific knowledge of instructions going into the game, but I did see ill advised shots as soon as he got in the game. This question is purely hypothetical, but some of you act as though HCBS should have just left a player in the game that was unwilling to follow instructions and play within a team concept. This is not AAU basketball.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 9 months ago

This is a terrific point.

If you have a guy that is not coachable, it is on the coach, because he recruited him.

If he is beligerent, and won't follow instructions, he should be suspended.

None of these appear to be true with Selby.

I saw Selby take ill-advised shots; I saw Selby get beat on the defensive end. I saw Selby drive to the hoop, out of control. But I never saw a beligerent kid.

What you have identified are growing pains. Granted, a kid that blatantly and intentionally says "screw the coach" is a different scenario. No evidence of that.

But growing pains, learning .. is what you permit guys to play through. And this is a simple point. You identify the top guys .. let them play through their mistakes, let them learn on the job, let them grow .. then, magically, you have a better player down the road.

See, your excellent point defines what Self can't do .. he can't stomach playing an EJ, or Releford, or Selby major minutes, at the risk of losing on the road to Michigan, or California, or Colorado, or whatever (this more of a general point over the season). He favored Brady, and Reed, and Tyshawn .. players he felt more comfortable with, players that gave him the best opportunity to win the game at hand.

But at the same time, losing sight of the development of players that could displace a more "safe" player for Self .. really Brady or Reed .. or at least be a viable alternative. Self batted .333 .. good in the major, not here. Tyshawn's play improved late in the year.

What Jayhawk fan, right now, would not want to turn back the clock and see what would have happened if Releford would have just been left as the starting 3 in from day one over Brady (I understand Reed played more of the 3, but it doesn't matter, Reed could play the 2)? Could we have lost an extra non-conference game? Sure. Two extra? Sure. Another conference game? Maybe. I'd roll the dice. 25-7, 27-5, 30-2 .. who cares?

Then, vs. VCU, you have an experienced senior coming off the bench. Break glass when needed. But you have a more athletic player (Releford) in the game that is ready, and you have a player with more diverse skills. And bigger. A true 3.

The exact same could be applied to Selby vs. Reed or Morningstar.

But we can't risk losing a game for player development. Too risky.

Jabez Harlan 10 years, 9 months ago

You must be a genius! You should call HCBS and ask for his job! With you at the helm, KU will surely win a national championship in 2012!!

Jack Wilson 10 years, 9 months ago

I would be interested is why you think my opinion is incorrect .. if you have one; if you are a blind follower, say so, I can accept that.

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

because those are the kinds of mistakes freshman make and if that freshman has the potential to make your team better by playing through those mistakes, you let him do it. Especially if its a meaningless regular season game with Colorado or Iowa State or Nebraska or Texas Tech or whoever. I dont understand why so many people think that HCBS is infallible and beyond criticism. This is the same coach that didnt get out of the first round twice, lost to UNI, and is 1-5 all-time in Elite 8s right? I just wanted to make sure b/c the way some people defend him you would think his tournament resume would be beyond reproach, but that simply isnt the case. I still think he's our guy and is without question one of the top 5 or 6 coaches in the country, but he isnt perfect. Suggesting that there might have been some things that could have been done differently to put us in a better position to win a NC doesnt make one a traitor or an idiot, its simply a fact. If its not, and there was nothing else that could have been done, and CS always does everything right, then our team was WAY overrated this season because we got flat out embarrassed by VCU and I dont care if it is a tournament game, losses like that are not and should not be acceptable for a program like KU Basketball.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

I really have absolutely no idea why it is that so many of you get so excited about these "unbelievable, awesome" recruits. So they have talent......whoopee. This "talent" doesn't really seem to be helping Kansas get anywhere close to national titles.

You people need to take a long,hard look at a team like UConn. Not just their players but their coaching as well. Three national titles since 1999!!! That's amazing. Kansas? Choke artists in March. Kansas needs to make major changes to its program. Right now......there is no chance of a title. None.

I wish you "rah-rah KU" fans that are content beating Iowa State and Texas Tech would wake up and understand what it takes to win a title. Hint:We don't have it!!

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago


Another troll with knee pads.

Suck it.

Kye Clark 10 years, 9 months ago

Probably an antler at that, disgusted with the Frank Haith hire and taking out his aggression on his "rival".

bradynsdad 10 years, 9 months ago

Once again here you are trash talking. If you are not a rah rah ku fan then why do you constantly patrol this site waiting to bash every player and coach you can. If you don't like ku stop posting it's that simple. Look at the age of the other coaches who just won titles. Their all about sixty five. Self won his first title after being at ku what, five years if he stays on that pace or even one title every six years he will surpass Calhoun, coach k, and Williams before he reaches their age. You keep saying we don't have what it takes, well we sure as hell had it in 08 with an all self team. What do you what from the guy? Roy was here fifteen years and never won a title, self wins one and has us closing in on the winningest program in history and your ready to crucify him. Why don't you just call him and tell him you know whats best for the program and let him know you will be taking over.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

You are a good example of the type of fan I'm speaking of. I admire your dedication and your faith in KU.....but that can also be a problem as well. Because you become blind to any problem. You just assume that all is well and it's just bad luck that KU chokes(sorry-no other word for it) in March.'s not. There is a reason Kansas loses these games in March......and a reason why a team like UConn can win 3 national titles in 12 years. I'm not saying fire Self at all......but he needs to make major changes. I don't mean to "tash talk".....I 'm just trying to voice an opinion of what I see.

Jabez Harlan 10 years, 9 months ago

I don't see a problem with a KU team that goes 35-3 wins the league title, conference championship, and makes an elite eight appearrance, which BTW no other number one seed can say.

In retrospect, KU had a great year and played beyond expectations of the media who pegged them preseason to finish behind KState in the league.

KU does not have a problem, one of the premiere programs in the country.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

Exactly the typical fan I'm talking about. See no evil,hear no evil......Head buried in the sand. Tell me, you think it's a coincidence that UConn has 3 titles in 12 years.......and Kansas has 2 in 60 years? Gee.....I wonder......could there actually be a reason for that????

bad_dog 10 years, 9 months ago

or perhaps you could look at it as 2 NCs in 22 years...

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

mostly agree but 67-6 in the last two years with no final fours is a problem. So is 4 #1 seeds in the last 5 years with only one final four to show, even thought that one did yield a NC.

you cant ignore the final results of the season anymore than you can ignore the regular season results in favor of post season results. Theyre all a part of who this team is and of how they will be judged. We arent far from another NC, but we do need to evaluate some things and possible make some changes.

Ill say this though, Im not running around today bragging about being 35-3 and having won the Big 12 regular season and tournament titles and Id be a much happier fan if we had won the NC last night. But thats just me

Dale Kroening 10 years, 9 months ago

Dont let the door hit u in the ass tool...................

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

Another blind Kansas fan. Something tells me that you're still not convinced that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist.

I'm not trying to torment anybody(except comrade Jaybate)......and I don't think what I'm saying is so bad. I just believe there is a reason that things reason Kansas does not do well in March.....and a reason a team ilke UConn can win 3 ttitles in 12 years.

Something is missing in March. It's obvious.....and frustrating that so many like you deny it and have your face buried in the sand.

You are also a very passive-aggresive person. On one hand saying be positive and enjoy life....and on the other saying my life is horrible. You must be a phd? I guess so.....seeing that you have diagnosed me and you know not a thing about me.

Well....I will keep my opinions......and you keep yours. Let's talk again in 10 years and see how many national titles KU has won if there are not major changes made. My prediction is zero.

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

dude I get why your posts rub some people the wrong way, but this is sort of ridiculous the way people want to condemn you for being objective. Obviously being a fan, by definition, means your arent rational about your team (hence the term fanatic) and thats why people give you so much grief, but get a grip people. He's not a good member of society? Why? Because he thinks our program could improve? WOW! Get some freaking perspective people. Its not like the dude is bashing people personally, he's just saying that in his opinion we have some work to do to get our program competing for another NC. I dont even see how that could be an argument given that we have been to only 1 final four in the last 8 years. I think he is a fan like the rest of you and wants our program to be the best it can be. Whats wrong with that?

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

713KUFAN.....Thank you! You stated how I feel better than even I can!! I am a's not my intention to trash anybody on KU's team. I think they all have done their best. The problem is their best isn't cutting it least not in March. I don't know what it will take to see that something is wrong. Yes.....I know we won in 2008. That was awesome. But these teams have been so amazingly talented going back all the way to Roy's tenure......and they choke in March. Why??? One national title in the last 23 years is unacceptable. It needs to change. Self can change......I think he will.

ku_foaf 10 years, 9 months ago

Apparently your memory doesn't even go back 3 years.

Steve Gantz 10 years, 9 months ago

If you think these people here are rah-rah fans who see no problems with KU then you are mistaken. Visit a live update during a game. See the 1000 or so comments posted during the game. No blind allegiance to KU during those games. lots of over the top criticism of the team and the program.

Congratulations to your team, but I just wonder what kind of life you must have to visit the teams pages who didn't win it all.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

"Respondez to KULA Regarding Josh Being Better Off Jumping that Being with Coach Self Another Season"


Hopin' ur right for JRippah's sake...

But suspect KULA not listenin' eithah...

Ignorin' facts...

Sayin' don't confuse me with'em...

Not acceptin' 36% at 20'9" may equal 32% at 23'9"

Sayin' facts don't mattah...

But in the L facts is all that mattah...

Grown men fightin' for food and bench longevity...

Hype not be impressin'em...

Not carin' 'bout PT...

Just wantin' a slot on the gravy train...

Willin' to do anything to keep it...

Suckin' up to whatever star wants the vacuum...

Takin' unprepared boys down...

Sendin'em packin' to Europa...

The E Uuuuuuuuuuu....

Playin' for baguettes...

Not the big bones...

Euro trashin'...

No posses...

No one carin' 'bout the 'hood...

No soul food, just monk fish with cream sauce...

No one carin' bout your 5 stars...

No one speakin' your language....

No jive telemetry...

People lookin' at your 'toos and thinkin' "whatta fool!"

No one carin' bout the urban dictionary...

No one carin' bout Maeshon...

Oh, KULA, oh KULA/ Don't ya treat Josh this way/ You're the meanest ol' poster/ That I ever did see...

"Hit the road, Josh,/ And don't ya come back no more, no more / No more, no more/ Hit the road, Josh/ Don't ya come back no more Yeah, don't ya come back no more"

Oh, KULA, oh KULA, Don't you realize this There really is somethin' Called the kiss of death (I really care if he does I really care if he doesn't) He's the sweetest young guard That I ever did see...

Don't hit the road, Josh... Cuz you cain't come back No more, no more, No more, no more, Don't hit the road, Josh... Cuz you cain't come back No more.. Oh what'd I say Don't hit the road, Josh Cuz you cain't come back No more.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

I suspect that Jaybate is a radical liberal......possibly a marxist. Is Obama your "Glorious Leader", Jaybate? Do you have shrine at your house where you worship him? Something tells me you are left of left......a radiclib. A communist.

Jabez Harlan 10 years, 9 months ago

looks like the adolescent (theend) got a hold of daddy's computer and is playing pranks.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

"Ewe have impressive political knowledge. I want to learn from ewe. Are ewe a member of the Animal Sodomist Party? Do ewe have a shrine at your barn where ewe worship ram recta? Something tells me ewe are a colon centrist......a radical beastialitarian. Or are you part of that splinter party--the Sheep-Raping Anti-Constitutionalist Party"?

(Note: this of course is all fiction and a satire of theend's rhetorical style to make clear how silly and inappropriate I believe such political attacks are on a basketball web site. And this satire is done without malice.)

FreddyinLA 10 years, 9 months ago

Selby needs reps at the point. The job was given without competition to TT. Selby is gone.

Martin Shupert 10 years, 9 months ago

If Josh goes pro now, it won't be simply a year wasted for him. I believe it will be a horrible waste of his potential forever. It's a career breaker. He will never get the experience of competing on this level again and his talent will fall off the table.

The people around him who are filling his head with ideas about how great he will be in the NBA are the real culprits here. Not only is he not ready, but by going into the wasteland of playing semi pro ball or sitting the bench for some pro team, he will end up never ready to play pro. Does anyone know what Julian Wright is doing now? What do you think he thinks when he talks to kids from the championship year? He blew it, pure and simple. But that poor decision pales in comparison to what Josh would do if he tried to go pro now. It's such poor judgement, in fact, that if he does go, I'm fine with it because we don't need someone that full of himself on the team next year. He's not ready and there's a distinct possibility that he never will be if he goes.

tauck 10 years, 9 months ago

How about this, teach these kids how to shoot free throws and we would be National Champions right now. No need to worry about shot selection, substitute patterns etc, just become a good free throw shooting team. Make it a priority, break it down, teach it and then rep the holy hell out of it, so we never lose another game because of it.

inkcube 10 years, 9 months ago

I was a prof at KU during the years Paul Pierce played. The year he came out he disappeared from my class and other classes right after the tournament ended - I never saw him again. It looks like young Selby is doing the same.

Jabez Harlan 10 years, 9 months ago

Pierce didn't disappear. He has been in Boston for years making millions!! Where Have You Been?

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

interesting perspective. I think your probably right

Jabez Harlan 10 years, 9 months ago

It is possible that KU picks up Stan Simpson from Logon Juco in Chicago. UK is recruiting him too, but he is 6'10'' and about 250. Could be an experienced bruiser to complement KU's guards.

Kevin Huffman 10 years, 9 months ago

I think we'll get Simpson......UK (Who ALREADY has 5 of the top 14 recruits ANYWAY)'s reported as nearing signing 6'-8 Braedon Anderson from out of Toronto.

I can't understand how a SINGLE kid in the late signing would got to UK right now. Anyone who signs with UK right now's probably stupider than Selby......they'll be behind multiple other guys already signed!!!!

KUbsee69 10 years, 9 months ago

Why do you link TRob with the twins? If anything, TRob gains exposure if the twins leave. He will start and be "the man". IF the twins stay, and I hope they do, he will still come off the bench.

If this is about his sister, in the long run, he can assure her an even better future by staying. His NBA stock will certainly go up with another year of development. If he goes, he's on the road, living out of hotels for the better part of the year. That's not an environment that allows him to be with her more. Yeah, he can provide monetary assistance, but another year will enable him to do that even better. If there's a lockout, he may not be able to do that at all, for some time.

I think the clear path to a secure future for both TRob and his sister is for him to stay and develop his offense to match his defense. Then, he'll be guaranteed NBA bucks.

ku_tailg8 10 years, 9 months ago

Its a joke if Selby is in Vegas and is missing class. It is disrespectful to all the kids that have to pay to go to school and have a hard time making ends meet. These guys are hardly ever in class from the end of November through March. If he still passes his classes while he pursues his NBA career then the teachers/professors should fail him. If he is going to the NBA, best of luck. I didn't see it at KU. Getting rejected by the rim will always be a highlight in my mind.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

I don't know.......I see what you're saying........but if the kid is going to leave.......I guess I can't really blame him for not going to class anymore. It's kind of hard to think about geography when you're on the verge of getting millions in $$$$ into your bank account.

Plus.....what's the point og going to classes if you're giving up on a diploma for now?

As for your point on tuition.....I agree. Maybe they should make these athletes pay for at least a portion of tuition if they quit. Not sure how I feel on that one.

ku_tailg8 10 years, 9 months ago

the point is he will be ineligible next year. He stunk this year after his suspension and there is no reason to believe he is smart enough to pass classes. Thats what ticks me off. These guys have every avenue to a degree that most students don't get yet he is on a pipe dream. Does he really think he is ready? Good for his family if he makes it (in the first round...guaranteed contract...but if he goes in the second then he is screwed. No 30 year old is going to lose their job to some project.

Marcia Parsons 10 years, 9 months ago

How can he be in both Baltimore and Las Vegas?

ku_foaf 10 years, 9 months ago

If Josh is in Baltimore, you can bet his mind is currently in the NBA. Hope he changes his mind. His draft stock is surely not that high. Good luck to him if that is how he chooses to go.

John Sheehan 10 years, 9 months ago

If rumors about the twins and Josh are true, our Starting 5: Withey T-Rob DeAndre (assuming he signs) B-Mac TT 6 - EJ 7 - T-Rel

Not what we're accustomed to...but a chance for some guys to play their way up by March.

We're much better off (obviously) if the twins come back - they are the key.

Selby coming back would be great to see him realize potential, but it's not as important as the big men IMO.

Any other opinions on what the lineup could look like?

Kevin Huffman 10 years, 9 months ago

I don't think we're going to get Daniels after all. I suspect he'll end up at Duke. I DO think we'll get Simpson as I think T-Rob's gone too. I feel like that's not it though....I think there'll still be another SF/PF type we'll sign...maybe that kid from Sikeston, MO....maybe he relates to St. Louisan, McLemore?

Also there are recruits from OU, MU, UNLV, Univ. of Miami (FL), etc. that can released from LOI's...should look into any post players that had committed to them

Joe Baker 10 years, 9 months ago

We all overlook Wesley and he has got to be primed and ready after sitting out due to his transfer.

A walk-on transfer from Lamar who will sit out the 2010-11 season and be a redshirt sophomore in 2011-12... Will be able to practice with the Jayhawks this season and provide plenty of competition for the bigs... Younger brother of former Jayhawk great Keith Langford.

If he is anything like his brother, I'm excited about his ability. He looked good at late night too. The dude did nothing but work his butt off while others played. I'm thinking he's the most overlooked Jayhawk of all. His bro is a huge influence and should have a part in his preparation for a new season of eligibility.

Too many quesitons at this point:

TT/Tharpe Selby?/EJ/RW- I think EJ is much better at the 2 but BMac may share that role and DD may bump up to the 3 with Rel Rel/BMac/DD JW/Anderson/DD both 6-8, Wesley has the advantage over DD at this point. I'm really afraid dook gets DD at this point unless Garrett can influence him. TRob/Withey/Simpson?/Porter

We get Anderson if the twins are gone, guaranteed. We have a good chance at Simpson but I really think Cal bribes him to uk. I think we have a great chance at Otto Porter too. We don't have to use all our schollies. If we get DD, Anderson, Porter and Simpson that should spend our spots.

hawksfan08 10 years, 9 months ago

Did anyone ever consider that maybe Self's offense isn't a good postseason offense? It works well in the regular season but without fail faulters late. When the postseason comes around, defense is what is ratcheted up because defense is reliant solely on effort. Your offense generally stays the same because diving for a loose ball doesn't make you a better 3 pt shooter. (VCU this year being a notable exception. Still waiting for an explanation for a 10% variation on 3pt %age)

If you want a good example, look at the SSOL Pheonix Suns. Great regular season offense but when the defensive pressure is turned up down the stretch the offense becomes less and less effective and sometimes even completely falls apart. Isn't it possible that Self's offense is the college version of the Suns? Wildly efficient, high scoring, and failing in the face of increased playoff type defense. The only way to combat that defensive pressure is to penetrate and hit the roll man on ball screens. The suns did this to great effect with Nash/Stoudemire and probably would've succeded if not for the suspension after the fight against the spurs. The VCU game in my opinion turned when Kieff was called for 3 seconds as Taylor lobbed to a rolling Marcus for a dunk. The next time down, Taylor got his 2nd foul and we had no one to penetrate and hit the roll man. We never saw it again that game.

It's no coincidence that the best Self coached defensive team is his only FF team and had the ability to penetrate against the pressure and dish to the roll man with robinson rush chalmers and collins.

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

Seriously?? KU had great looks against VCU - we just couldn't hit the side of a barn. Nothing fell - bunnies, mid-range, & treys. Missed free throws have nothing to do with the offensive sets. But, missed FTs do cause players to tighten up and affect the mental confidence of a team.

To me, this isn't about offensive philosophy, it's about preparig for the matchups and mental maturity. Self already talked about that 40 hour prep time window. Now, I just wish he would address our poor FT shooting because making FTs does a lot for a team's ability to win games.

hawksfan08 10 years, 9 months ago

From an article by Newell.

2004 vs. Georgia Tech — 44.6 eFG% (season eFG% of 51.4%) 2007 vs. UCLA — 44.6 eFG% (season eFG% of 54.5%) 2008 vs. Davidson — 49.0 eFG% (season eFG% of 56.7%) 2011 vs. VCU — 37.1 eFG% (season eFG% of 57.0%)

Last 4 games in the elite eight. So I beg to differ.

Jonathan Allison 10 years, 9 months ago

facts don't lie.

But you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not Self's offense that's to blame. His offense was the same in the tourney as it was all year long, and the Hawks got plenty of open looks. They just couldn't make a shot.

As JNewell attempted to illustrate in the above referenced weblog, it is Coach Self's lockerroom/courtside demeanor that creates an atmosphere of tension in elite 8 tourney games. It is not the offense that needs to change. It's the atmosphere. It's the players consciences. It's the coaches attitude. It's the fear of losing that is making us vulnerable.

Interestingly though, the VCU game was strangely like the KSU game in February, when due to OSU and Duke's losses KU suddenly was #1, we were the favorite, and the team to beat. And we laid an egg. VCU was KSU. But KU was two totally different teams in each instance.

Against KSU, KU was overly confident, and played angry when they were behind. Against VCU, KU played scared when they were behind. It was because of cocky players that we lost to KSU. It was because of Bill Self's tyrant mode that we choked against VCU.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

Careful Hawksfan08.....if you are even remotely critical of Kansas or Bill will immediately be attacked by many of the people on this board. They think Bill Self is perfect and has all the answers.......and they are completely satisfied with being able to just beat Iowa State every year......never mind that KU has only won 2 national championships in 60 years.......Who cares? we beat Iowa State!!!!! Twice!!!!!

kkoenig 10 years, 9 months ago

wish we could have beaten them during the 1999-2000 season.

Ludwig Supraphonic 10 years, 9 months ago

I only thought HCBS was perfect and had all the answers. I now see you are the light that will lead our moribund program from the slough of despond. Do you accept indulgences from the penitent?

cojayhawk99 10 years, 9 months ago

man someone needs to relax. I'd hate to watch a basketball game with you. Basketball is just playtime and you're sitting on your ### watching it and life's just not good enough when they can't win you more NC's. I'm happy I get to see a well coached team play, and that they're on TV most of the time. If that means I'm not a real fan or passionate enough... okay, guess I'll have to live with that.

RockChalk26 10 years, 9 months ago

Theend, you make me laugh. What is your deal with Iowa State? You seem to mention them every time you post.

HawksWin 10 years, 9 months ago

I don't quite get recruiting top talents, so would someone pls help me understand? I know KU is one of the elite programs, but how is it many of the top 20 or so end up at UNC, Duke, Kentucky (I get why UK) & others like AZ, Texas, Cuse, etc instead of KU? The twins weren't the top A talents, except Shelby, right? I think TRob, TT, EJ are top. Makes me wonder if all that ranking is real. Perhaps I'm drinking too much of media/espn juice.

Steve Gantz 10 years, 9 months ago

Roy rarely had kids considered in the top 5 of the class, but obviously he did well with top 100. You don't need top 5 type players to develop a program especially in 2011. Top 5's leave. Kentucky's had tons of talent the last two years and nothing to show for it except a Final Four.

HawksWin 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree we don't need top 5, but why aren't they eager to come to Kansas? For example, Chol signed with AZ knowing Danny M can make him better. Self said he needs a great (not good) recruiting class. I'm just perplexed as to why we don't have A talents knocking at our door, that's all. As for Kentucky's top 5 having nothing to show for except the FF? Well, give that top 5 players to Self, and he would have gotten a NC. Cali's A talent players took him to the FF, but Cali couldn't convert due to his lack of talent. Self is smarter than Cali.

ChicagoJHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

I never heard about the Morris twins getting bottle service with an agent in LA. Where did you see or read about that?

Joe Baker 10 years, 9 months ago

Complete rumor at this point. The story was broken by Gary Bedore. Angel said the facts were twisted and Self said he was not aware of them in LA. People are overreacting to this piss poor story, Until the twins, Angel or Self say directly to the media, it's rumor.

Even the crap about Selby are blown out of proportion. Maeshon said the facts are off.

Let the players tell us directly before we crucify them or jump overboard. LOL

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

I want to believe that Selby would be making a horrible mistake by leaving KU early, but I can think of at least one NBA success story that jilted KU - DeShawn Stevenson.

Over 10 years ago he signed with KU and then jumped to the league instead. Everyone said he would fail, but even though he has had an up & down career, the guy is going to pull in over $4 million this season alone.

Is Selby a DeShawn Stevenson??? Probably not - the odds are definately against him. But hey, it's his life and God knows predicting success is impossible and evaluating success is subjective (i.e., Julian Wright.)

tis4tim 10 years, 9 months ago

If getting fewer than 20 minutes, 7 points, 2 rebounds and an assist per game over the course of an unremarkable pro career is what Josh wants, then he has every right to chase that dream.

I'd love to see him stay another year and develop into what we all think he can be, but if his destiny is to be just a highly-touted, highly-recruited footnote in Kansas basketball lore, then there is little any of us can do or say or write to stop it from happening.

Good luck to the young man whatever he decides.

Debbie Mangen 10 years, 9 months ago

Really? I keep reading that Self should have let the freshmen play through and maybe have sacrificed some games throughout the season for the end goal. We would have not won the conference. We likely would not have won the Big 12 tournament. How much support do you think Self would have received by this time? Jayhawk fans would have crucified Self before the end of the season. I am not a Selby fan by any means and leaving him in to play through his mistakes would be suicide. It infuriated me when he would lose the ball and then just laugh about it. That kid would be sitting with Junemann and Roberts the rest of the game if he played for me. Everyone makes mistakes, but he acted like he didn't care. That was a slap in the face for the other players who gave their all during practice. I believe that had we played deeper in the bench with Releford & Johnson it would have helped in the tournament. Why try so hard to recruit these kids if we don't give them a chance to play? Selby didn't deserve the minutes he got. I for one, prays he goes pro. Let him sit on their bench.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

'The Emperor's New Clothes'.......Remember that children's book? A lot of you Self and KU worshipers on this board remind me of the emperor himself. He actually believed it when his ministers whispered in his hear...."Oh....what fine silk, sire!"......."Oh my.....isn't that a remarkable color, sire!" "Ah, what beautiful fabric, sire!" took a simple child to tell him......he actually had no clothes at all.

Well......turns out Kansas and least in March.......have "no clothes" either.

Yes, KU is good. Yes, Self is a good coach. Yes, KU has great basketball tradition. Yes, KU almost has the record wins of any school.......Yes.......I get it!! And you're right.

But all of you need to understand that there is a problem with this team in March. Having a good regular season and a good coach and great tradition is not enough to win national titles!!!!!!!!! UConn is a perfect example of that. I want KU stop underachieving and live up to its potential. Two national titles in 60 years????? Sorry.....maybe I'm spoiled.......but I want more. Winning the Big 12 and its tournement and reg season games is great.......but national titles are all that really matter. And KU and Self need to make major changes.

WAKE UP!!!!!!

bradynsdad 10 years, 9 months ago

If you would like some attention just ask. You repeatedly say how were happy beating Iowa state but do you disregard every other team we play. We did beat an Arizona team that played pretty well in the tournament. Could you please list your changes that need to be made instead of just saying it. This way we have a record of your changes. It's easy to say if we win all our games in march and April next year I think we will be national champions but if we lose our games in march and April we won't win. Do see how vague and dumb that sounds. Please list your exact changes that need to be made.

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

more of a leash for players to fail during the regular season, better development of guards that is on par with how we develop big men, more focus on just playing our game in the tourney rather than trying to adjust our game to match the opponent, probably need to look at (as CS admitted) their between games routine during post season play

Thats at least enough to get you started. But Ill throw this out there too, CS got outcoached in the VCU game, plain and simple. Too much doubling in the post and no answer for their small lineup and full court press and took too many threes. Losses arent flukes, they happen for a reason and if you dont evaluate what that reason is, they will keep coming. I really dont understand why this is so controversial for the people on this blog. Being objective doesnt make one any less of a fan or any worse of a fan.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

Why should I list changes???? I'm not a coach or staff! Frankly......I don't know!!!!! Then again......I'm not paid millions of dollars to know.

I'm no basketball expert and never claimed to be.But I do know a pattern when I see one....... a pattern of losses to inferior teams in March........and I know there is a problem in March.

When I get a bad meal in a restaurant.......I don't go back in the kitchen and show the chef what to do........I ask the chef to cook it cook it better!!!!

I'm not sure why I need to keep defending what I perceive to be legitimate criticism.

Ludwig Supraphonic 10 years, 9 months ago

I suppose I'm a homer. I don't like to bet on sports because I lead with my heart. I don't think everyone has to adopt my world view to be a fan. I've seen your posts beginning in February. You've predicted first round exits and "the end" of our season since you appeared after the K-State game. I know it's disarming to say KU fans are so thin-skinned that they swarm after well-intentioned criticism of HCBS or the KU/BB program. I don't see evidence that your criticism is well-intentioned.

KULA 10 years, 9 months ago

theend--watch what you say on this site. It's not, it Any implication that he is not the perfect and wholly formed incarnation of basketball divinity will bring down taliban-like wrath on your head.

FLJHK 10 years, 9 months ago

As to the question of whether I would trade some regular season losses or even the Big 12 Championship for a national title, well of course I would. But that’s not really the issue. Most of the truly great teams through the years got both. They sustained excellence throughout the year. That’s why this year’s tourney, if not a crapshoot, came pretty close. No way were those the best two teams in the country playing last night. But one of them got a national championship, and they are now happier about this season than anyone else.

I don’t agree that the regular season title and regular season games are meaningless. Athletes play to win every game. I will accept though, that a long view of the season is appropriate, and that player development through the season is a key component of an ultimate tourney run.

I think Coach Self had a particularly difficult challenge this year with a team that had a lot of depth, and little distinction between their various talents. Tough finding minutes for everyone and keeping them happy. But this team was a lot better in March than they were in December, and that is to Self’s credit.

As regards specific players, the situation I questioned the most was Releford, but I have never heard just how much his injury played into that. As regards Selby, I think he was given every chance and more; he just didn’t deliver.

No doubt some of that was circumstantial with the suspension and injury. But I certainly never saw the player the hype let me to expect. Yes he was good in his breakout game against So. Cal., but the team was lousy. Taylor’s slump began as Selby was inserted into the line-up. For whatever reason, the chemistry wasn’t there.

Newell’s piece last week was very telling. By his statistical breakdown, Brady was the team’s most efficient offensive performer; Josh was dead last by a long shot. I don’t say that Selby is without major talent, but clearly it hasn’t yet been developed in a manner that makes the team better.

We lost to VCU in the tourney this year. VCU played well, we played poorly. To their dismay, both Brady and Tyrel had particularly bad games. Certainly we need to look at every reason for this performance and make adjustments. I think that will happen.

But even if we play well, there is never any guarantee of a national championship. In those years I’m glad that we can at least claim the Big 12 regular and post season tournament championships.

LJ Gee 10 years, 9 months ago

by the way, does anyone else think this is a horrible headline for this article? I mean, way to grab the most insignificant part of the story and make it a headline. very misleading and who really cares if his little brother thinks he's like LBJ? its his little brother. I havent been following this site too long, but as of yet i am unimpressed with the journalistic talents on display

Vincent Patterson 10 years, 9 months ago

HighEliteMajor, Oxcalijayhawk, 713KUFAN - Man, I really can't say too much more than what you all have already said, so all I will say is "Right-On brother, right-on!" Would I want somebody in place of Self, "hell naw". He has obviously shown that he can recruit and win..BUT, his stubborness is killing his opportunities to win championships in the post season! His losses to the likes of Bradley, Bucknell, UNI, and VCU can't all be flukes! This is becoming a habit! And we all know we could have very well lost to Davidson that year we won it all.

All I want to see as a fan is that he starts trying a different approach and be willing to adapt. Along the same lines as HighEliteMajor and Co. I too can live with a few more losses in the regular season at the expense of using those losses as an opportunity to develop those players who may give you a better shot of advancing in the NCAAs. Confernence regular season and tournament titles are just supposed to be gravy, not the highlight and focal point of the season! Last I checked it's all about National Championships!!!

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

Easy there, Vinny_vin.......if you're critical of Self on this board......the Bill Self Thought Police will attack and villify you. They would be excellent communists......a bunch of yes men that tow the party line......and immediately squash any and all dissent!!!

bradynsdad 10 years, 9 months ago

Or in "theends" case if you don't have something negative to say your not welcome on this site.

theend 10 years, 9 months ago

You say negative.......I'm not negative. I'm realistic. Do you honestly believe that it's just a coincidece or dumb luck that UConn has 3 titles in 12 years and we have 2 in 60 years?

hayjawk 10 years, 9 months ago

theend - you really are a foolish person

sdoyel 10 years, 9 months ago

Let's not forget that Josh posted a very, very good GPA in the Fall.

Steve Gantz 10 years, 9 months ago

I have no time to read all of these posts, but it looks like Selby is gone, and with that, he is really gone, to Europe, or Pakistan or Israel to play pro ball. He won't play in the League anytime soon.

GeoHawk15 10 years, 9 months ago

Theend, we get it. Obviously no one is going to change their opinion and you're beginning to sound like a broken record. Move on. Jeez...

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

"Basketball Thoughts Meandering Like a River Through the Great Plains"

This is in reply to HEM's and some others' comments above. As usual, I aim to keep our discourse amiable and want readers to view our disagreements as equally informing and useful, regardless of differences.

First, IMHO, Self didn't have the most talented players, or probably the most talented team, in the country this year, or last. Last year and this year he had the exact kinds of teams that get upset. Teams with missing pieces, injuries, and key starters having less than career seasons. Cole was never 6'11". He was sick and injured his entire last season and was never as good as he was as his sophomore season. Sherron slumped down the stretch. And though I thought Sherron was a great player, most thought he was vastly overrated and no where near as good as many other point guards around the country. So: hype aside, and my opinions about Sherron aside, in retrospect, Self did not have the best material, nor the best player in 2010. And Self clearly did not have the best material, or the best player, this season either.

So: the first thing that needs to be understood about KU's losses in the last two Madness tourneys is this: KU teams in 2010 and 2011, despite the hype, were, in retrospect, exactly the kind of teams that had to get hot and stay hot to avoid being upset, by mid majors, or by anyone else. Both teams peaked a little too early and played a little too well down the stretch of the conference and conference tourneys, to get hot and stay hot in the Madness.

In turn, I believe this is what Self will eventually learn from these two years: if you do not clearly have the best material and the best player in a season, then you have to really delay your peak until the tournament, no matter how many losses you have to take late doing it. And when you get to the tournament in years with less than the best talent and the best player, you have to geek your players to an even level of performance for every game of the tournament. Sending them out flat, as he so clearly does (at least its clear to me), some games, and geeked up others, builds in and magnifies a natural volatility to their performances that just is not predictable and that just cannot be reliably modulated.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

Wooden was right: coach your players to perform to the highest sustainable level possible, not to ups and downs. There is no question in my mind that Self wins more games over the course of a season by modulating their ups and downs, as he does, because the number of good teams is relatively infrequent and so their is more margin for error in how how down a team can be and still win (and the modulated ups get him W's he would not get otherwise, too).

But come tourney time, the average level of competition gets so high that you need to keep at least an average level of performance (on the down performances) just to get by the mid majors. But when Self does this, then he will not get the super human performances in the Madness like the 08 upset of UNC in the semi finals. All psycho/motivational approaches have their tradeoffs. But I think Self will begin to opt for a more steady level of emotional edge in the future.

Now back to the specific issue of "successful" programs getting it done when they have the opportunity.

Self clearly agrees with you and he is worried that he has wasted two good shots at rings...the implication being he won't get many of these opportunities.

I disagree to some extent with you and the coach. I think Self is just now ending his apprenticeship stage as a D1 coach at a major. I think it is normal for him to have blown the opps that he has blown at Illinois and Kansas. But more about that later.

For now, let us return focus to the programs that you ask us to think about and how they have fared over the last 25 years.

Of the Maybach programs you mention, probably half, or a third, the rings they won were won with teams not most favored to win it all--with teams that got hot and got lucky on the match-ups. Probably half of the rings won were won by teams just like UConn this year. After a season of ups and downs, a team with one terrific player comes together, gets hot, stays hot, avoids any 9.5-12% nights from trey, and wins one, or two, close games along the way by exploiting an opposing team's late mistakes, and wins the title..without the best material...though often with a best player (e.g. Danny in '88).

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

Part 3

Further, the fact is Dook, UConnvict, Baja KU, Floridastan, UKonvict, Syrexcuse, Aridzona, and Ratso Izzo State have all been upset in the early rounds of the tournament over the last 25 years, except maybe UConn and UA, because they were probably not even on the blue blood hoops map 25 years ago (so mark them down for the last 20 years). But certainly since UConnvict and Aridzona became powers, they have been upset in the early rounds, too.

Another fact is all of these programs absolutely have played horrible games and lost because of it in the Madness over the last 25 years.

Another fact is that all of these programs have blown opportunities to win it all, when they were among the serious contenders.

So, while the tournament is not a "crapshoot," it is, statistically speaking, and in retrospect empirically speaking, at the very least, closer to a crapshoot than to a loaded dice game on the spectrum between these poles.

Consider some coaches.

Duke's Coach Consonants was a terrific coach when he was relatively young. He learned under Knight, a very smart coach, and then quickly got hold of Duke at a young age and was just an unusually savvy guy early on. He had some tough years for awhile, but then he got on a 10-year run of talent that was at least as superior to his competition of his time, as was Wooden's (save for Jabbar and Walton) and Dean's (save for Jordan) in their times. Then he cracked up and then he lost his talent run and then he did so poorly for 6 years or so that most were saying the game had passed him by and it seemed he would be retired by now. But being the little tough nut that he is, and realizing he could not longer recruit as well as a lot of the younger coaches, he went out and sucked his way into the Olympic program, free road on the image of the pros, and restored enough sizzle to his image that he could start landing better talent than almost everyone again. After winning it last season, though he couldn't win it with coaching, he had to resort to cheap shotting, he blew it this year in a phenomenal way. He had the most experience, the most talent, the best talent, and even got his best freshman back. He had it all and couldn't get it done. Last season, he lucked out not having to face KU (because KU was upset), and, to reiterate, used cheap shotting to make up for what he didn't have to win the ring.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

Part 4

UConn and Calhoun were for years labelled perennial blow-ups and the biggest chokers in basketball, when anyone took them seriously at all. Calhoun was deeply embittered at being disrespected for decades by the time he won his first title. Calhoun has learned to win the ring as an old coach sometimes does, even though near flat lining, and constantly under investigation for recruiting violations. Calhoun has also copied Self Ball to great extent the last two seasons. All the way down to take what they give us. Calhoun has given up setting tempo almost completely and plays grind it out even slower than KU. Calhoun is the best argument for saying with high probability of correctness: Self is within sight of the experience level Calhoun required to be able to win his rings...and Self has already won one.

Baja KU aka UNC was, under Dean Smith, the single greatest choking team through out the UCLA run of championships. Many used to say that if a really good coach had had Dean's talent, Wooden would have only won half the rings he won. Then when Wooden retired, everyone said Dean would dominate. Dean promptly mostly failed. He won two rings over a decade and a half in which he always had the best talent of anyone by a long shot (oh, maybe 1-2 years some other team had about as much). Then Roy came and won two rings after 15 years of failure trying at KU. But of course people forget that Roy should have three rings at UNC, not the two he has. He completely blew it being upset by KU in 2008. UNC was clearly the better team that season. Roy got fooled by Self's jump in the lanes defense that first ten minutes of the first half of the semifinals and was too stubborn to adjust. And Roy fell into mediocrity last season. Did he even make 20 wins and the tourney last season? Self, by comparison, goes 35-3, or 26-7 in his two most recent "rebuilding" seasons.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

Part 5

Floridastan? Good lord, without the very best material by an order of magnitude, Donovan, like Roy, can't even make the tourney some years, in order to be upset by a mid major. Self has never once enjoyed the superiority of material Donovan had with the two Noah/Horford teams. If he had, he would probably have won two with it, also. But who can say for sure. All we can say is that he won two when he had the best material in the country by a significant margin, can't (or barely) make the tourney some years when rebuilding, and

Self has been a coach at a major for about 11 years now (8 at KU, 3 at Illinois). Most of the great all time coaches have had a decade or so period of learning how to run a major program and doing it increasingly well, but not winning rings consistently. Self got lucky and won a ring early without really knowing how he did it. His team stole a game from UNC based on his cleverness in 08, but Self had to have pure luck to win the title game against Memphis, and had to have pure luck against Davidson, too.

Billy Donvan won two rings young, but now he can't duplicate his success either. That means that was largely luck, too.

To reiterate, even the great Wooden had to coach 10-12 years at a major before he really got the hang of how to do it all: win pre conference, win conference, and win post season.

There is no free lunch, not magic bullet. You have to struggle and fight and accumulate enough experience of how to do all the things that need doing, before you can be something more than lucky. Jim Calhoun was something more than lucky this year. You could feel that he was like an experienced jockey riding a horse he knew how to make perform to the best of its abilities. He wasn't experimenting. He needed some luck, but he really knew what he was doing constantly. Most importantly, he knew from experience the things he could not control. Brad Stevens, good a young coach as he is, just did not know what he did not know, what he could not control.

Bill Self is just now entering the prime of his coaching life.

Hank Cross 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with most of your analysis. I just don't believe that Self is capable of re-calibration, of questioning some basic assumptions he has about the game and how to coach it. I might very well be wrong (and I hope I am), but based on the reasons I posted above, I see more retrenchment - not adaptation.

If Selby is leaving, then that will make two seasons in a row where KU has: wasted a top seed to a very beatable mid-major; a OAD is leaving without coming close to fulfilling his potential; and talent was undeveloped/wasted. If this history repeats itself, I suspect that Self's most ardent supporters will start to acknowledge there is a problem.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

Part 6

Bill Self is now entering the period of his coaching life when he will not only be harder working, and more cunning than most he faces (as all the great ones are from the beginning), but more experienced than most he faces.

If a coach can survive in the profession until he has hard work, cunning, and experience on his side, he can become a very, very, very dangerous opponent.

Self is approaching that point.

The trick for all coaches who enter this phase of their career is to be able to keep recruiting successfully, when they are getting older and so not so in touch with the generation of kids they must attract.

Self's years of being the coolest, trendiest, most fun coach that comes to call are drawing to an end.

Self's big challenge now is can he become the mature wizard with the buckets of experience and the yoda like wisdom that can mesmerize the future Jabbars and Waltons that are now over due in the pipeline and will surely begin to resume appearing the next ten years. Self has to get 2-3 of them the next decade to convert his experience, cunning and hard work into banners.

IMHO, any guy who can win 84% of his games in the middle of his decade apprenticeship at majors in D1 has a very good chance of growing into the wizard phase and winning 2-5 rings, depending on the talent he can land.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

Part 6

Bill Self is now entering the period of his coaching life when he will not only be harder working, and more cunning than most he faces (as all the great ones are from the beginning), but more experienced than most he faces.

If a coach can survive in the profession until he has hard work, cunning, and experience on his side, he can become a very, very, very dangerous opponent.

Self is approaching that point.

The trick for all coaches who enter this phase of their career is to be able to keep recruiting successfully, when they are getting older and so not so in touch with the generation of kids they must attract.

Self's years of being the coolest, trendiest, most fun coach that comes to call are drawing to an end.

Self's big challenge now is can he become the mature wizard with the buckets of experience and the yoda like wisdom that can mesmerize the future Jabbars and Waltons that are now over due in the pipeline and will surely begin to resume appearing the next ten years. Self has to get 2-3 of them the next decade to convert his experience, cunning and hard work into banners.

IMHO, any guy who can win 84% of his games in the middle of his decade apprenticeship at majors in D1 has a very good chance of growing into the wizard phase and winning 2-5 rings, depending on the talent he can land.

Ty Mar 10 years, 9 months ago

Hope HCBS has less "dark circles" around his eyes!

Ethan Berger 10 years, 9 months ago

Selby needs to look at Guys like Blake Griffin and Jordan Hamliton. Both stayed and Hamilton will be a top 10 if he leaves. Players that leave to early, dont fare well in the NBA. But lets not forget that scouts understand that he was injured for a good part of the season. So they will take that in account. Hope they say hes a second round pick.

benshawks08 10 years, 9 months ago

In reading all of these comments about Self's management of talent this year the one aspect I am noticing is getting overlooked the most is injury. Having an injury not only affects players' physical abilities, but their mentality and their chemistry as well. Also what is frustrating is that we as fans have little real knowledge of what a player's true injury is and how it is fully effecting their play.

This has to be one of KU's worst years for injuries and players sitting out I can remember. Selby (suspension, foot), Releford (ankle), Robinson (family nightmare, knee), EJ (Suspension), Taylor (Suspension, fingers), and Reed (foot). The players that got the playing time were the ones who faced their adversity and overcame it quickly (Robinson, Reed, and Taylor). That to me is what leadership is all about. Self said that both Releford and Selby would be back way sooner than they actually returned. And can anyone on this board give me an example of either one of these two giving a solid performance once they returned, even for just a brief period on the court?

On the other hand, Reed played injured all year and kept his performance fairly even. Robinson came back from hell and the knee injury faster than humanly possible. Taylor was remarkably improved returning from his suspension. These players proved to Self and themselves that they would not let their time out (or continuing injury for Reed and Taylor) negatively affect their play.

Maybe, just maybe, Self has a little more insight into how his players have recovered both physically and mentally from adversity than we do. You cannot tell me that Self keeps his players on too short of a leash with considering the way he has handled Taylor. If there is a player who has played through more growing pains, I can't think of one. So he is willing to give the players that chance if they are willing to overcome their adversity.

benshawks08 10 years, 9 months ago

Oops meant to say ABLE to overcome not willing. Of course they are all willing to but some are better at it than others. Also had an extra WITH in that last paragraph. Should have maybe edited this one better. Sorry.

REHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Posters, I enjoyed your rebuttals and refutations today. This site continues to entice me for its passionate discourse and analytical depth. Well, sometimes not "depth," but always passion! And courageous opinionizings. Heck, maybe I would trade a couple of league titles for a long as K State, Mizzou, Texas or Baylor didn't run away with the conference hardware. I can certainly feel the dismay and frustration which many of you feel regarding our recent losing history in the NCAA Tourney. This year we have to keep in mind that lousy freethrow and 3-pt. percentages were huge anomalies in that VCU loss. Could Self have better prepared Releford or Selby or EJ by allowing more minutes throughout the conference season? Does he fall down in firing up his squads for consecutive games in 48 hour timespans? Does he rely too much on starters to offer up 30+ minutes on tired legs in NCAA contests? I am confident that the coaching staff will eventually come to grips with the entire situation to make adjustments for future success. In the meantime, I am pleased with the 2010/11 season; very proud of the league and league tournament titles, hardly more dismayed at the VCU loss than the whopping we took earlier in Manhattan. For a team in another rebuilding year, Elite 8 was terrific. HEM, I enjoy reading your posts and opinions immensely. However, I am wound up very differently in my outlook toward conference titles vs. advancement to Final 4s. Even when I replay the thrilling finish in our '08 Championship, I view the Tournament as a crapshoot. VCU, Connecticut, Kentucky getting to Houston. REALLY!

Hank Cross 10 years, 9 months ago

Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang. All excellent points. Brady/Reed would not have played a minute last night if they were on UConn. Too slow, couldn't create their own shots. If the VCU game were a baseball game, and Reed was pitching, you would've seen .190 hitters grabbing bats. Let's be honest, Brady/Reed were cut a lot of slack b/c they were white kids from KS who stayed 4 years.

Kye Clark 10 years, 9 months ago

I feel your frustration and agree with many of the points you have made. One thing I'd take issue with is your question "is there any question what the Twins+TRob would have done to Matt Howard&Butler?" If you want your answer to that, look at what they did to VCU. I'm wondering if your question is a hypothetical, presuming that they would have dominated them and led us to victory. But to presume that is to ignore what actually happened. The Twins played well against VCU, but did not dominate (other than the glass. Something that was negated by less than stellar shooting especially by their standards, poor free throw shooting, and Kief's 8 turnovers). TRob played himself into foul trouble and was a non-factor. My point being: why should we presume they'd have dominated Butler when they didn't against VCU?

FLJHK 10 years, 9 months ago

Ralster: I agree with you about Releford, tho I still don't know the extent of his injury and status thereafter. Little probably should have gotten more minutes, and EJ as well. But not a whole lot.

Brady and Reed earned their playing time. Perhaps not as athletically gifted as some others, and Reed clearly suffered in late season play as a result of his foot problem, fact is this KU team as a whole played better with them on the court than without them, particularly in the last third of the season. You may not like all of Newell's analysis, but what do you have to refute it?

I don't view the inclusion of Brady and Tyrel as a "safe" lineup. I view it as the best we had to offer. I think it was impossible to predict that they would have the game they had vs VCwho. That is particularly true of Brady, who performed two days earlier with tremendous impact. I don't know how you can realistically question riding the horse that brought you there.

I'm as frustrated as you about a sad and what I consider premature ending to this season. I agree that it must be closely scrutinized and evaluated. But I don't know how you realistically prepare for meltdown games of that magnitude from both Brady and Tyrel, (as well as Markief, although that gets little attention), And it's not like the subs, in their (too) limited minutes, performed in a manner to suggest they should have gotten more time.

Anyway, I don't consider this season as a failure. There were plenty of positives. I'm a frustrated and disappointed as anyone about its ending, but I've not lost faith in Coach Self or his system.

We are blessed to be able to have these discussions. Very few others enjouy such opportunities.

Hank Cross 10 years, 9 months ago

That +/- analysis is bunk and even its creator has expressed some doubts in a blog I've seen posted here. It's obvious flaw is that it doesn't account for all the variables in game situations. The only comparison that might tell you anything using this method is if you had Team 1 composed of a, b, c, d, and e play an entire game against Team 2 composed of v, w, x, y, and z, and then subsituted f for e and played Team 2 again. (Although even then there would be a variable b/c of the two Teams becoming familiar with each other during Game 1.) According to the scientific method, that's the only way you would even quasi-reliable data about the efficiency of e vs. f using this analysis. Since such a scenario never happens - that type of analysis doesn't prove anything.

REHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

In a "rebuilding" year, after 3 starters moved off to the NBA, we won the league and league tourney, then moved along to the Elite 8. Bury the bile and move on.

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