Originally published May 7, 2010 at 06:28p.m., updated May 7, 2010 at 06:45p.m.

Conner Teahan to stick with basketball at KU

Junior guard won't be playing for football team in fall

Kansas guard Conner Teahan gets up for a pass over Pittsburg State guard Spencer Magana (2) but can't hang on during the first half Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas guard Conner Teahan gets up for a pass over Pittsburg State guard Spencer Magana (2) but can't hang on during the first half Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Teahan has bowed out of his quest to be on the KU football team and thanked Coach Turner Gill for the opportunity.


Kansas University junior basketball guard Conner Teahan, who participated in spring drills with the Jayhawk football team, has decided to play basketball only during his senior season at KU.

“Conner told me today he’s not going to play football and will be a full-time basketball player,” KU basketball coach Bill Self said on Friday.

“I do think he owed it to himself to give it a chance. For him to play quarterback at this level, he felt he was several years behind the other guys (at QB). He liked coach (Turner) Gill, the players and coach Gill’s staff. He visited with coach Gill and thanked him for the opportunity.”

Teahan was a football/basketball standout at Kansas City Rockhurst High who declined a football scholarship offer from Tulsa to walk-on KU’s hoops team.

He completed one of two passes for 10 yards in KU’s spring game on April 24. Last season, he averaged 3.9 minutes while playing in 19 games for the 33-3 Jayhawks. He scored 20 points and dished six assists against four turnovers.

"It was a great experience and I appreciate coach Gill and the rest of the coaches and players for giving me the opportunity,” Teahan said. “I wish the football team the best of luck next season and I will continue to support them.”


jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

A. Conner proves he is too smart to play football. Kudos, Conner. You'll be glad you did what you did when you are 45.

B. Conner went out and got some serious contact that ought to toughen him up for XTreme Muscle Ball.

C. If Conner gets Hudy-fied, and comes in at 235, and if he gets his confidence back on his trey, I still think he could get some muscle minutes. Conner could be the back-up muscle on the perimeter that this team is utterly lacking with all the long and athletic guys, who will need an enforcing fouler to come in for 3-5 minute stretches once the XTReme Muscle Ball starts in February, March and April. Everyone else on the perimeter of this team are slender types, skinny minnies, or long and athletic. Self absolutely could use a good trey shooting, designated fouler and high contact man on the perimeter, once schmucks like Mike K decide to cheap shot when four down. Frankly, Tyrel would be a great candidate for the job, but he's just not big enough. Conner has the combat chassis. Conner had the gun. All he needs is to commit add 15-20 pounds and Self has another piece of the puzzle in XTreme Muscle Ball come March. Once the fouling is not called in March and April, Conner's slow feet are not the least bit of a liability for 3-5 minute stretches. Hand checking, a la Butler, and actual aggressive fouling a la Duke would turn him into a serious weapon for Self. Go for it Conner. The muscles will make the women love you even more.

D. Turner Gill is a former option quarterback who couldn't really pass for squat, and now he's looking for the same kind of alter egoes as his quarterbacks in the age of the pass crazy offenses. It is going to be one heck of a long, bowl-less season for KU.

Clarence Haynes 7 years, 11 months ago

"Turner Gill is a former option quarterback who couldn't really pass for squat, and now he's looking for the same kind of alter egoes as his quarterbacks in the age of the pass crazy offenses. It is going to be one heck of a long, bowl-less season for KU. "

On the other hand, Chuck Long if I recall was a decent quarterback in college and the pros. He also is a proven offensive coordinator. Thus I can't see how you can imply that the onus is totally on Gill in the selection of quarterbacks and the team's success next year.

justinryman 7 years, 11 months ago

Growing up in Nebraska in the early 80's I have to say Gill could throw the ball, it was the offensive style he was in, he played in the CFL and threw it there too. Don't just assume he couldn't throw because he played under Osborn.

slowplay 7 years, 11 months ago

"Turner Gill is a former option quarterback who couldn't really pass for squat"...And Mangino was an all-American QB in college? In fact he never played a single game. What an asinine comment. BTW, check out Gill's CFL passing stats. Not bad.

Andrew Moore 7 years, 11 months ago

You're not giving our offensive coordinator, Chuck Long, much say so with regards to who is the quarterback. He deserves some credit for his accomplishments coaching QBs (namely Josh Heupel) at Oklahoma. I don't think our offense will be what determines bowl or no bowl.

If we give up 35 points per game like last year, then its gonna be a bad year...

Mike Kendall 7 years, 11 months ago

Good for Conner. I wish he would get his outside shooting back. Good luck, Conner, for the 2010-11 season.

DSommersby 7 years, 11 months ago

Big time props to Conner for giving it a shot. That took a lot of guts to put yourself on the line and check it out.

He could have crashed after the long basketball season, but he decided to check out another dream he had and gave chase to it. He may not have seen it through the way he wanted but he did give it a try and I salute him for his guts. Hope he has a great summer getting ready to help the Basketball Hawks next season!

jchief40 7 years, 11 months ago

Like Conner would even read this comment. You are just wasting pixels. A little overkill on the praise there too. Just went to try out - kind of a "meh" situation. Overkill...

Mike Kendall 7 years, 11 months ago

azalum--- Glad you liked "The Waterboy." It was one of my favorite Sandler movies, too! Cudos to you, for telling it like it is.

KEITHMILES05 7 years, 11 months ago

Conner never had a chance at football. It was all glamor and glory with no substance.

Jack Wilson 7 years, 11 months ago

I have a feeling that in a couple of years we're going to be longing for the Mangino-era. Pure witch-hunt.

Scott Lippoldt 7 years, 11 months ago

HighElite, I feel the exact opposite. I believe Gill can get our football program back on the right track. Remember: last season was pathetic compared to what the expectations were with all the talent we had returning. Not only that, but Gill will represent our university well.

As a coach Gill already has received more positive publicity and opened up to the media more than Mangino did during his entire tenure at KU. I also personally am proud to have such a solid citizen represent the University of Kansas, as I found Mangino's tirades and his overall personal demeanor (actually, for him, de MEANER, de BETTER) to be embarrassing. Yes, we had one outstanding year--albeit with some great breaks in schedule, etc., but was it really worth it...?

I hope all Jayhawk fans will get behind Gill and at least give him a chance. I don't expect miracles for the upcoming season, but given time, I think the Jayhawks FB team under Coach Gill and his staff's direction and guidance could be an annual bowl contender--something we've never truly had at KU. RCJH!

HawkInAL 7 years, 11 months ago

Don't kid yourself. Mangino was a d-bag that got decent results, until being a d-bag caused his team to turn on him. Plain and simple. Call hiring a class act like Gill who by his example demands respect the actions of an "overcompensating collectivist mentality" all you want, just don't call it racism; that's YOUR "overcompensating collectivist mentality". Don't pollute Gill's hiring with your own obvious bias. As I've heard said numerous times- "You don't see the world as it is, you see it as you are." Look in the mirror soobawls. And for the record, who was a more qualified coach than Gill? Just curious...

HawkInAL 7 years, 11 months ago

So KU should have hired Terry Allen because he was so great at UNI huh? No, that's right, he sucked. Horribly. I'm looking for a name soobawls. Give me a name of the pie-in-the-sky coach that YOU would've hired as AD of Kansas. Not some "anyone with a winning record" line served up conjure images of Bear Bryant or Woody Hayes. They're no longer available.

HawkInAL 7 years, 11 months ago

I just read over 150 words of "I don't have an answer to your question so I'm going to play word games." At least when my 3-year old pulls that kind of nonsense he's cute. Let's try again: Who would you have picked to succeed Mark Mangino as head football coach of Kansas?

neb·u·lous (nby-ls) adj. 1. Cloudy, misty, or hazy. 2. Lacking definite form or limits; vague: nebulous assurances of future cooperation. 3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a nebula. 4. soobawls replies to questions he doesn't have answers for.

DevilHawk 7 years, 11 months ago

You may remember how the season went downhill starting with the CU game - primarily due to Reesing throwing picks or getting sacked.

You may also recall that the event that supposedly triggered Mangino's firing/resignation occurred at the CU game.

Also, Mangino would probably still be the KU football coach had we had a winning season.

When you consider those three things, I am of the opinion that Reesing intentionally threw some of those picks and allowed himself to be sacked after the CU game so that Mangino would likely be fired at the end of the season.

Is it possible that it was a witch-hunt? Yes, but I highly doubt it. KU and Mangino reached a settlement for his resignation so that KU did not publicly share all the evidence that would have entirely barred Mangino from coaching at the college level.

Is Gill qualified? I'm still not certain of the hire, but we could have done a lot worse. We are starting to pick up our recruiting and Gill seems willing to try different approaches to see what works and what doesn't. Let's just wait and see what happens over the next few seasons - I think that we will see some very positive results.

63Jayhawk 7 years, 11 months ago

HighEliteMajor: I will NEVER long for the Mangino era. Coach Magino's behavior was embarrassing to the University and to it's fans and alumni. IMO, he was a terrible representative of of our university. One does not have to behave the way he did to be successful.

Kevin Studer 7 years, 11 months ago

Not sure I really buy the idea that this experiment will make Teahan a better basketball player...

troutsee 7 years, 11 months ago

I think it shows where the heart of KU fans lie when an untested and lightly regarded high school QB, who came to KU on a BB scholarship, gets the loudest ovation during the spring FB game. To turn the corner on FB, we are going to have to get over that mindset and support the FB progarm just as loudly and enthusiastically as we do the BB program. I wish Conner the best but it was expecting too much to come into FB program late and and expect to succeed. I wish him the best in BB.

Mangino is gone. Give Turner a chance. I am sure he will come through and take the KU FB program to new heights.

Dirk Medema 7 years, 11 months ago

Conner is and always has been a walk-on at KU. He gave up scholarship offers elsewhere to walk-on at KU.

It also doesn't hurt that virtually every "name" player graduated, left early, was sitting out the spring game.

Definitely agree with you tho that Coach Gill deserves a chance. I think he's already done close to as much for the FB team as the past several coaches - without a W.

I also think Conner even trying out for the FB team is more a testament to Coach Gill than anything. There is a reason he never tried before, and I would venture to say it was b/c someone other than Todd was there.

Kye Clark 7 years, 11 months ago

troutsee - good post. I agree that Turner deserves a chance. Some of these fans knocking the guy before he's even coached one game is ridiculous.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

"Its Saturday and the Oilcos Are Blowing Up Oil Rigs Again, So Let's Look at Basketball Season as a Military Campaign:"

October 15-December 1st:

Late Night--Irrational exuberance manifests based on some new faces playing grab with some old ones and making a few buckets in site of banners.

Boot Camp--Lifers, new recruits and OAD special ops show up after lifting all off-season and get crash course in preparation for the last war (army's are always prepared to fight the last war); i.e., based on the way the refs called the rules of land warfare on wood last season.

Practice Maneuvers Before First Exhibition War Games--General Self puffs about grunts who "could" compete for serious minutes, puffs about good drills in practices, puffs about wanting to play more up-tempo, and deftly curbs fans irrational exuberance by pointing out that KU lost 3 NBA first rounders, thus leaving reporters and fans to do the implied math: KU only added one potential first rounder: Josh Selby. Implicit message: we can be very good this season with Little and Releford to plug in, but come on, fans, we have just two possible NBA first round picks in Marcus Morris and Josh Selby, and so we haven't a prayer of going 33-3. Best we can hope for is to muscle up, go XTReme, get lucky on seeding, and get a hot hand for D-Day in March.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

December's Stark Realizations: Training of core force continues in secret, while General Self pushes certain newbies and vets into the breach. Newbies needing toughening and soft veterans with special killing skills in short supply, are given baptism under fire the first two weeks of December in an attempt to determine, if even one of them can adapt to the violence of 10-20 minute combat hitches, while not coughing up TOs, playing sound on-ball defense, and at least adequate off-ball defense. It is also during this period where the newbies and soft vets are gauged for how they handle intimidation by opponents. Most crack and are relegated to rear echelon bench duty. Fans notice that up-tempo increasingly only occurs, when the opponent is full of green LAOs and an anomalous team of refs doesn't allow much physical contact. After these games, fans irrational exuberance about up-tempo style spikes off the meter, but General Self curbs that enthusiasm with talk about the bigs needing to man-up and block out to stop the opponent from running too much on KU. The last two weeks of December, the core attack force, the heavily armored, half-court occupation force is finally brought out several times against both possession hostiles and up-tempo hostiles and player-soldiers making few TOs, few defensive lapses, and showing a taste for the bodying of hand-2-hand combat of medium grade combat begin to be forged into a cohesive combat unit capable of both grinding out a half court occupation, and of occassional spurts of rapid transition attack. Fans irrational exuberance extinguishes Christmas as "get better" week punctuates the transition from the skirmish phase of the campaign to the grisly conference campaign, where opposing generals and opposing players-soldiers know each other well, and so surprise and unfamiliarity give way to familiarity and inevitability of known force colliding with known force.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Exhibition War Games--Crushing hopelessly out-weaponed Ft. Hays and Pittsburg States by a combined margin of 143 points, and playing a lot of up-tempo to keep the fans entertained, while watching to see which of the new guys commits TOs and so must be put on the suspect list immeditately, General Self about how hard the new guys are working and about leadership from the returnees.

November Skirmishes, Up-Tempo Diversions and an Early D1 Engagement: While the real invasion force practices in top secret, closed door practices, and is drilled in XTReme strategy, tactics and weapons mastery, the new LAAs aka "long and athletic" guys (read: not yet strong and heavy enough to play D1) are formed into highly mobile, up-tempo attack teams and ordered to blitz out-weaponed cupcakes in between limited engagments with actual D1 enemies. Fans rave about the new up-tempo style and how KU's new LOAs have the weaponized "athleticism" needed to blitz opponents. In fact, the LAAs are being sorted for those who cough up TOs, can't defend, and can't shoot the trey even against cupcake militias, and the one, or two, that, with a ton of work, might have the toughness to survive intense D1 combat operations planned after January1. Fan's irrational exuberance about the up-tempo strategy is tempered by the fact that one, or two, times a true D1 opponent is engaged, tempo slows considerably, while General Self alternately tests playing through the mobile strike force perimeter players and then the heavily armored tanks on the low blocks, in order to find out which player-soldiers can hold up under sustained some low-grade, but sustained physical combat on both offense and defense against hostile forces.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

January and the Exposure of the Core Attack Force's Strengths and Weaknesses: Fan fantasies for a 9-10 player-soldier combat team with up tempo and intermittent full court pressure are finally dashed completely as the conference campaign sees 8 players dominate, and all but the toughest, most error free LAAs seeing only mop minutes. Some false hope is kindled briefly for a 9-10 student-soldier team, when a series of Saturday-Monday battles in full combat, grind-it-out, core-force carnage requires the resting of certain players on Saturdays to be at full strength for Monday night games against opponents with a particular dominant player-soldier that must be contained with full application of XTreme Force for 40 minutes. By late January, the core team has been forged and it is increasingly apparent that while size, defense, shooting skills and the number of impact players determine whether a team has match-up advantage, decreasing foul calling and increasing roughness make apparent it is the capacity to strike early and repeatedly with physical contact up to and including quasi violence that puts teams in position to either dominate, or to stay in games to the end, so that impact players can go get key baskets. By end of January, core attack force is defined by what it can and cannot do for the rest of the season, through whom and with what sets it must play at crunch time.

February and Finding Ways to Kill Hostiles Even When They Know Your Weaknesses--In February, the carnage actually increases. All games become XTReme Muscle Ball, because all opponents have either played you recently and know your weaknesses first hand, or have tons of game video and know your weaknesses second hand. The percentages are in on how you fight, how you cheat, and how you win and lose, and, so, the opponent knows where and how to amass the maximum force at your weakest point. The refs stop calling fouls except down the stretch, and the player-soldiers have now fully learned what the current year's rules of land warfare on wood allow and how the rules can be bent and broken in XTReme Muscle application. Each encounter with enemies grows more crucial to the run to the crown and each team has less and less to lose by cheap shotting and thugging. War-of-attrition strategy becomes the norm. Usually one or two player-soldiers emerge from lesser roles during this period, because they are able to shoot, protect the ball and thrive in XTReme Muscle conditions. The new LAAs are either vague, benched memories of early season romanticism, or they are competent, but to slender thug ballers that can keep defending despite the violence, and who depend on General Self to substitute for the times when the gloves come completely off and the referees call the game as if being snow blind.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

The Convergence of Hostiles in the Conference Tournament--Here fans advocate for taking it easy and resting players for ultimate, full-combat campaign--the NCAA XTReme Muscle Ball tournament of March and April. But, of course, there is no way that can happen, because the higher the finish in the conference, the higher the seed in the ultimate tournament. During the conference tournament, the refs call even fewer fouls and play is even rougher. Up-tempo basketball is now only played by a few not very good teams coached by men about to lose their jobs. The conference tournament is essentially a slug fest limited from being total war only by the fact that you have to live with all these hostiles next season.

D-Day in March and the Charge to the Final Four--Troops are rested briefly and given lectures warning them of the escalation in violence that can be expected, as the referees literally put their whistles in their pockets for the central 15 minute stretches of each half of each NCAA XTReme Muscle Ball tourney game. Troops that have not been to the XTReme tournament before cannot comprehend how basketball combat could get anymore violent than it has been the last month. Veterans try unsuccessfully to prepare them. Combat starts against lesser weaponized teams called mid majors. These mid majors, however, have more physically and emotionally mature player-soliders that have had to play all season without much talent, and so have mastered XTReme Muscle ball, or some other virulent strain of it, in order to get that far. Surprise defeats invariably occur during this time, highly weaponized, but relatively inexperienced teams get overwhelmed by "no-tomorrow" violence and unusually accurate gunnery. Teams able to modulate violence to slightly exceed whatever the mid major core combat teams present, plus shoot reasonably accurately, survive and advance. In a series of two, two-day tournament battles, the four most violent core combat teams that have suffered no systematic shooting failures survive.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

The Final Four War--The most violent team with the best three point shooting, best free throw shooting and least wounds inflicted by hostiles wins. Here even being bigger and stronger and more agressive is not the ultimate determinant of winning. All that matters in the Final Four War is being willing to commit acts of violent cheap-shotting, when four down, that would be considered crimes triggering arrest, trial and imprisonment out on city streets. All pretense of basketball as sport ends in the Final Four War as the game descends into a two game series of cock fighting, treys shooting and FT shooting.

War's Aftermath: After each season long campaign, all but one core combat team has its dreams crushed; that victorious team inevitably avoids talking about the crimes it had to commit to emerge victorious and spins instead about team work, and how hard its guys worked. Fans inevitably talk about how next season will see the re-emergence of up-tempo play.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

December's Stark Realizations: Training of core force continues in secret, while General Self pushes certain newbies and vets into the breach. Newbies needing toughening and soft veterans with special killing skills in short supply, are given baptism under fire the first two weeks of December in an attempt to determine, if even one of them can adapt to the violence of 10-20 minute combat hitches, while not coughing up TOs, playing sound on-ball defense, and at least adequate off-ball defense. It is also during this period where the newbies and soft vets are gauged for how they handle intimidation by opponents. Most crack and are relegated to rear echelon bench duty. Fans notice that up-tempo increasingly only occurs, when the opponent is full of green LAOs and an anomalous team of refs doesn't allow much physical contact. After these games, fans irrational exuberance about up-tempo style spikes off the meter, but General Self curbs that enthusiasm with talk about the bigs needing to man-up and block out to stop the opponent from running too much on KU. The last two weeks of December, the core attack force, the heavily armored, half-court occupation force is finally brought out several times against both possession hostiles and up-tempo hostiles and player-soldiers making few TOs, few defensive lapses, and showing a taste for the bodying of hand-2-hand combat of medium grade combat begin to be forged into a cohesive combat unit capable of both grinding out a half court occupation, and of occassional spurts of rapid transition attack. Fans irrational exuberance extinguishes Christmas as "get better" week punctuates the transition from the skirmish phase of the campaign to the grisly conference campaign, where opposing generals and opposing players-soldiers know each other well, and so surprise and unfamiliarity give way to familiarity and inevitability of known force colliding with known force.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Note: skip the above post and start with the next one to read all the posts in proper order. I think I've figured the system out...finally.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Post Script: Nope, I haven't got it quite yet, but getting close. The key is: every segment has to be posted as a reply to the prior segment. :-)

ldjayhawk 7 years, 11 months ago

I would love for Conner to get the remaining scholarship for the next season.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

me 2...if we can't sign one of the Wear twins to transfer?

kranny 7 years, 11 months ago

I wouldn't necessarily say Gill couldn't throw for squat. He had Irving Fryar to throw to for 3 years and completed 54 % of his passes for 3,317 yds with 34 TDs against 11 ints. He also rushed for 1600 yards in his career. And this was during a time when passing in the Big 8 went over like a turd in a punch bowl. I think Gill understands what kind of quarterback wins games in college football. You have to be mobile and not one dimensional unless you have a line like OU or FU. Sam Bradford will sidelined after 2 games with a concussion because he is about as mobile as a duck on ice. I think he'll get the most out of his players. I also think he'll inspire instead of leading through fear. I have no idea how this is going to pan out but Jayhawk nation needs to be patient for 2 seasons. I look to forward to the future of KU football with cautious optimism.

Tony Bandle 7 years, 11 months ago

Takes guts to chase a dream. Takes greater guts to know that it must stay a dream.

Conner, continue to be KU's next opponent's best three point shooter in practice. This will do more good than sitting at the end of the bench in Memorial Stadium.

To be concerned and worried about a new coach is understandible and justifiable. To criticize a new coach on his game performance prior to coaching even one game is: a. Irresponsible b. Irrational c. Laughable d. All of the above

Jaybate, my friend, your posts were becoming harder to decipher than Da Vinci's notes. I am glad you have discovered the secret of postal order. Since I have neither the mental might or digital durability to write a post more than one page, I will pass on obtaining this code. :}

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Okay, okay, okay, I take it all back about Turner Gill.

I dislike football anyway.

I always thought the best thing to do with Memorial Stadium was to put a dome on it and play a few basketball games in it to up the take at the gate for KU basketball anyway.

If Turner can take them to the naranja bowl the way Mangino did, then more power to him.

Just so he doesn't paint the helmets white with a little blue stripe and a scrawny little K on the side like those Nebraska helmets with the scrawny little N on them. :-)

DevilHawk 7 years, 11 months ago

I'm definitely in favor of placing a dome over Memorial Stadium.

After growing up a KU fan - and the Chiefs being terrible - it took me until undergrad at a warm-weather school to understand and enjoy football.

While winning and the expectation of winning is a major factor in filling the stadium, I think that a dome would definitely help attendance when we aren't doing so well and it's the second half of the season.

A dome would also: 1) Enable KU to prevent people from watching the game from the hill. 2) Enable KU to host some larger basketball games - in Lawrence rather than KC. 3) Potentially provide a better practice environment for the football team during poor weather. 4) Potentially enable KU to host some baseball games during the colder weather - when the team is commonly on the road playing at warmer schools. 5) Provide an alternative location for various concerts.

Actually, it sounds like adding a dome to the stadium could have substantial economic benefits as long as they outweigh the cost.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Bastiat said this about the evolution of the game of plunder in a society.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it, and a moral code that glorifies it." ~ Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

It made me think of adapting it to the game of turning basketball violent.

"When thugging becomes a way of life for a group of men in a non-contact sport, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it, and a moral code that glorifies it."

~jaybate, XTReme Muscle Ball

Randy Bombardier 7 years, 11 months ago

Wow, thought I was wordy. Jaybate, you get the award, whatever it is. As far as some of the opinions:

  1. 2007 was a dream season. 12-1 is something KU has never done before and something Bill Snyder, as much as I respect him, has not done. Kudos to the staff, including Mark Mangino, for this legacy.
  2. The 2008 and 2009 seasons were terribly disappointing considering the talent we had. I have always thought that a big part of this was the loss of Bill Young and MM's promotion of Bowen. I also think there was too much pressure being generated and that MM's way of doing things with personnel began to become counter-productive.
  3. I think there IS the possibility that Reesing may have been undermining MM during their last year together. This is pure speculation, but from some things I have read, not too far-fetched. I think there was a bit of a mutiny by some players. I believe that Lew Perkins gave audience to some of this and probably would have done nothing IF the 2009 season did not end the way that it did. Consequenlty, I believe that some players also figured nothing would be done UNLESS it ended ugly. Perhaps, there was even some collusion from an assistant coach or two who tired of Mangino's tirades and his tendency to belittle people.
  4. Some MM antics were over the top and indeed an embarrassment to KU.
  5. The hiring of Turner Gill has very little to do with the above except that the Administration decided it wanted someone stable, who worked hard at football, yet kept it in the perspective of life. He was not an anti-Mangino as much as it was getting back to why we are all here. Someone who would not embarrass the university and someone who brings out the best in others as a coach should.
  6. If MM had stepped back after 2008 and taken stock of how he handles people and situations, had asked himself if he brings out the best in others or does he just demand the best, he would still be here and 2009 would have been much better.
  7. In the final analysis MM's drive to succeed was not catching on, was counter-productive, the program in disarray, and there was no hope for any change, so changes were made. Good-bye MM and the fond memories, but we must part company. Thank you for your service.
  8. Now we have class, a coach who brings out the best in others, who will win hearts, minds, and ball-games. We have someone who understands that he is a life-mentor and a life-coach as well as a football coach and will act in such a way as to be worth emulating. We are getting back to basics, making quality young student-athletes who give their best, on and off the field. I wouldn't trade it for five 12-1 seasons in a row.

Edward Daub 7 years, 11 months ago

I like Conner, I like him alot. However, I don't see how he will earn significant PT on a loaded KU basketball team. As for Gill, I think he is the greatest. To have the guts to move to Buffalo, and circle the wagons with the SUNY Buffalo Bulls!

KUfball 7 years, 11 months ago

Conner never got a real chance from Coach Gill. I like Coach Gill and am excited for the future but the fact that he never really gave Conner any sort of chance chaps me a little bit. He gave Conner 15% of the reps that he gave Pick and Webb and in those few reps Conner performed well. Its a shame a greater chance on Conner wasn't taken. For a team with a large question mark at QB it shouldn't hurt to take that chance. Rock Chalk Jayhawk, I'll be there in the fall in full force!

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

"Sunday and Thoughts of Doming Memorial Stadium:"


Thanks for that analysis. You made a much better case than I did.

There would,of course, be an enormous fight over the aesthetics of doing such a thing. It makes so much practical sense that in the present climate, it would seem virtually impossible to achieve. :-)

Nevertheless, in the spirit of optimism and reason, there are at least two feasible ways to go IMHO.

Follow Renzo Piano's lead at the California Academy of Sciences building in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, where Piano created a magnificiently transparent glass skinned enclosure around parts of the former building with all manner of structures within it. Piano gave the CalAcad building classic rectilinear cubic form with horizontal massing fused with the glass transparency of a 19th Century exposition hall, like a Chrystal Palace. It has a flat roof with several small domic bubbles on top for light and air management. It is one of the world's great buildings to have been built in the last 20 years. It is an exercise in green building that would have to be hugely adapted to fit in the continental climate of Kansas, but Piano has said he meant the building as an indication to others of what can be done anywhere when one sets about harnessing the evironment itself to serve one, rather than fighting against that environment substituting an entirely contrived one. Traditionalists would probably prefer the look of this sort of design to the other I am about to describe.

Personally, I favor a similar green conceit in approach, but with a largely out of favor form.

I prefer a neo Fuller Dome. a modernist restoration if you will. :-)

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

I am kind of old now, so the things that I think look cool sometimes do not look cool to the three generations or more behind me in the cue of life. But I have always had this vision of an enormous, transparent Fuller Dome (geodesic) placed over Memorial Stadium since the time I first saw a clear Fuller Dome. I could not say so when young, but now I can say that I believe a Fuller Dome would preserve the aesthetic rightness of Memorial Stadium and its setting by keeping them largely visible within and without the containment structure.

As a middle aged man, and at this time in the river of architecture, I now see in this solution a fusing of neo-modernity with Memorial Stadium's basic neo-classicalism, as well as its modernist and post-modernist additions. I find the encapsulation of the existing pastiche of styles in a neo-modernity not only cost effective and practical, but philosophically and aesthetically right.

Fuller Domes have, of course, fallen out of fashion for quite some time, in part because domes were put to all sorts of inappropriate uses, and all sorts of ugly uses, at that. Home-built dome houses designed and then built by folks with pretty bad taste got away from the original brilliance and beauty of the engineered functionalist look of clear-span, transparent geodesic domes that Bucky Fuller envisioned.

The biggest knock on Fuller Domes has to be that they were applied to many uses that they just were very, very impractical for; and that has always been a recipe for giving any building (or other) technology a bad reputation.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

But cost effective, clear-span coverage of Memorial Stadium seems pretty close to the ideal application of a Fuller Dome, as Bucky envisioned it; especially since improvements in a number of technologies would IMHO make a Fuller Dome not only feasible now, but a vastly preferred solution in this case.

Fuller Domes got a bad rep, because many leaked and many proved difficult to evenly manage temperature and humidity within.

There are several key advances that make a vast Fuller Dome practical now:

a) better fasteners and sealants that will allow better weather proofing (i.e., Renzo Piano gives a tour de force demonstration of the use of contemporary fastening technology in the California Academy of Sciences building;

b) low cost digital temperature sensoring (i.e., allowing real time feedback throughout a dome);

c) low cost digital systems for opening and closing window panes in the dome (i.e., to make buildings "breath" efficiently);

d) smart glass (i.e., this is truly a huge break through for the tint of smart glass can be digitally regulated in near real time in gradual increments from clear to very dark, so as to manage sunlight optimally and actually minimize the need for opening and closing dome window panes); and

e) thorough understanding now of how simple water tanks and biomass placed within the dome can be used to stabilize temperatures inside any structural enclosure (and so vastly ease temperature management and lower energy costs).

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Clearly, I am laying out the above two possible solutions for enclosing Memorial Stadium, in hopes that OakvilleJHawk, our esteemed architect, will comment. He is not only a professional, with a professional's knowledge and experience (and biases, too). He is also a citizen and Jayhawk, who apparently tends to prefer continuity of use in architecturally significant buildings and sites on the KU campus (we agree on the damage done to Allen Field House so far) and, who, therefore would be apt to be especially critical of my two scenarios, and wisely so, for they are tampering with one of the most beautiful and memorable parts of the campus.

Memorial Stadium and its siting are IMHO examples of brilliant architectural and landscape design. Most love this part of the campus without truly understanding why. It took me some pondering to realize what most architects, especially landscape architects, would probably grasp instantly. The U-shape of the stadium is set in a U-shaped draw at the foot of Mt. Oread. Hence, there is a resonance (scalar self-similarity, if you will) between the shape of the stadium and the topography of the site. But the brilliance is the siting of the stadium so that the open end of its U faces the closed end of the site's U.

This siting achieves mythical proportions in the best sense of this phrase. The stadium completes the natural form into a semi-closed circularity, and the natural form completes the stadium's form into a closed circularity. Nature and the university. University and nature. Nature and sport. Sport and nature. Football and nature. Nature and football (add track here if you like). Nature and human. Human and nature.

But there is more.

These opposites both complete each other, while simultaneously existing in tension with each other.The U's of nature and of man oppose each other, and, in the balance, nature never fully relinquishes its more dominant, contextual rank in the relationship of land to building, land to university, land to human, despite the vastness of this stadium. This is a remarkable accomplishment, whether fully intended, or accidentally achieved.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

The aesthetic brilliance of this building and site is hard to overstate. In 1920, some sod buster intellectuals (including one Forest Allen) decided to build a stadium roughly modelled off the the first Olympic Stadium built at the first or second modern Olympiad. It was a modular project out of necessity. They only had enough money to build the sideline seats at first, then they extended them. To that point, circa 1925, what they had was just a stadium on some dirt. But in 1927, they added the north end zone seating that created the horse shoe shape that I have described as being so very profound and powerful in its mythology. From that moment, a level of beauty and resonance was achieved that subsequent, somewhat ham-fisted additions have not been able to destroy. Since 1927, anyone that wanted to have an extraordinary architectural experience had only to look out a window of a building on Mt. Oread with a view of the stadium and it occurred. Many stadia are bigger and more famous. But I have long argued that none is more memorable and beautiful. KU's Memorial Stadium is a kind of Midwestern prairie equivalent of Il Duomo in Florence, Italy. Il Duomo was intentionally built not to be as monumental as St Peters in Vatican City for political reasons. But from the moment Michelangelo put the dome on the existing cathedral, and it became Il Duomo, St. Peters in Rome has been bigger, while Il Duomo in Florence has been perfect. Memorial Stadium and its site possess a kind of perfection in stadia of this kind. The extreme virture of Memorial Stadium is that just as one does not need to be Catholic to marvel at Il Duomo, one does not need to be a football fan to marvel at KU's Memorial Stadium. And just as it is a shame that the seat of world Catholicism has never been in Florence and the Il Duomo, it is also a shame that Memorial Stadium has never been the seat of a great football program.

To reiterate, the brilliance of what these KU officials and their engineer/architects did starting back in 1925 with the siting amazes. The stadium sets in the cupped palms of two slopes radiating out from a vertex at Mt. Oread. It sits almost in perfect balance with Potters Lake, the hillside, the Campanile, together, as well as with the winding rill of Mt. Oread and its University buildings. Memorial Stadium is not something to be messed with casually, or short-sightedly just for a warm seat in November.

Part of the myth of football is braving the elements out in the open along with the football players. If football alone were the consideration, I would personally prefer to leave everything just as it is, because when I played football as a boy, what I loved most about it were the games in bad weather.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Were it up to me, there would never be artificial turf in any stadium anywhere. Mud games, tundra games, rain games, sleet and hail games, these are the true circumstances in which glory can be achieved in the game of football I once loved to play. These harsh times are the times, when it is most challenging and fun to play football and these are the times when fans must gut it out in support of their teams.

There is only one greatest football game and it was played by Green Bay and Dallas in Lambeau Field in sub zero weather to determine who won the NFL that season. Men stripped by brutal weather of everything but their courage and will played that game and transcended into legends merely by surviving. So it should always be in the game of football that I knew.

But today's football is not the game I knew. There is no significant legacy thread left between that game at Lambeau Field and the game today. Sometimes too much changes and the legacy truncates.

But there is still a thread left between the days of Otto Schnellbacker, and of Gale Sayers and Bob Douglas and today, because college football has changed a great deal, but not completely.

So: tampering with Memorial Stadium, even speculating about tampering with Memorial Stadium, must be done with utmost respect for what has come before.

I am no longer in love with football, because: a) it leaves players with disabilities in middle age that are just plain stupid to incur; and b) the game has been neutered by artificial turf and pansy fan and player aversion to inclement weather.

But if doming the stadium could be done in such a way that increased football and basketball revenues, satisfied contemporary fans not interested in the verities of inclement weather as I am, could some how sustain a link with the legacy, and elaborate upon the beauty and balance of the siting of the stadium vis a vis Mt. Oread, as it sits in the palms of that draw, then I would be entirely for it.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

So: how could any enclosure possibly complement the legacy, aesthetics and mythology between land and building that already exists? Could it at all?

OakvilleJHawk would be one person to listen to on this topic. I suspect he would favor leaving all as is, but you never know.

FWIW, I believe a cubic enclosure would destroy the balance and mythology of the stadium with the situs, just as the cubic press box and corporate box additions have come close to doing already.

But, outlandish as it may seem, I think a half-sphere Fuller Dome might possibly work, if it could be constructed so as not to rise higher than the surrounding horse-shoe topography.


Because a half sphere, Fuller Dome opening down into the draw opening up to the heavens reiterates the theme in yet another axial dimension of a half open, and half closed, form seated in and completed by nature that we already see extant in the stadium and in the site.

And a transparent Fuller Dome would preserve the visual legacy and grandeur and harmony and tension of the stadium and the site, plus add to it.

And philosophically speaking, I think that a Fuller Dome could on some profound level consecrate in monumental form the current, emerging neo-modernity, with its globalization, regionalization, and federalizing force of private oligarchy subordinating sovereign nation states through central banking infrastructure (note: though I steadfastly oppose the last without institution of a global Constitution and global Bill of Rights at least as democratic and edifying as what USA started with, but that is another story).

The duty of each generation building monumental buildings is to be true to its legacy and to whatever virtue and truth may be found in its present cultural circumstance.

Building such a transparent structure might concretize, and consecrate, the truest spirit of the legacy and traditions of the University of Kansas and of Kansans and of Americans as we navigate through troubled waters of the false future of a central bank centric new world order and toward the authentic, truly republican future with ever greater democracy for all.

Rock Chalk!

Jim Jackson 7 years, 11 months ago

I don't know if we'll be competing for a national championship in the near future, but a 9-3 8-4 season next year and moving forward is very plausible. The '08 and '09 class recruits we got from those 2 seasons that we won 20 games has a lot of speed and athleticism, and we had to beat out a lot of reputable programs like Nebraska, Texas AM, Michigan, Auburn etc. for some guys like Lubbock Smith, Dexter Linton, Omigie, Kevin Young, Mcgriff, etc

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago


Shared wordiness, or not, the pithy question of course is: does your alias refer to "intelligent design," or "intelligence design"?

See how brief I can be? You will learn in due time that I am equally comfortable going long, or short.


actorman 7 years, 11 months ago

Is anyone technically savvy enough to explain why I can't get most of the "sub-replies" to come up properly. I can see a little bit of the comment, but when I try to click on it to open up, all it does is refresh the page without changing anything. What would be even better than being able to open up the comments would be to change the settings so the full comments come up every time I open a page. Any ideas on how to do that?

rcjh22 7 years, 11 months ago

I use to have the same issue. There is a button next to the refresh and stop button next to where you type in the web adress on my computer that says compatibility view. Click that and then click any comment you want to show up in full. Hope it helps.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago


No clue here.

When I click on the story headline, every reply and sub-reply appears in full.

Tony Bandle 7 years, 11 months ago

Enclosing Memorial Stadium with a Buckminister Dome..hmmmmm..old Bucky would have loved it.

Honestly, it could be done but practically, to satisfy your vertical height clearance problems, you would have to set the ground diameter such that it would probably stretch halfway up the hill toward Templin, engulf the practice fields and pretty much wipe out half the housing to the North [which would not really be a big loss]

A more doable solution would be to build vertical curtain walls around the stadium and enclose the place with longspan girders and trusses. However the ambiance of the sport is somewhat compromised.

Trust me one this one...I am a St.Louis Rams season ticket holder and next to bad football, the worst thing you can have is a boring venue. I've had both for years.

Honestly, the best bet is ditch the track, lower the field and extend the seating.......and get some good players!! Winning forgives a multitude of sins!!

Martin Rosenblum 7 years, 11 months ago

Question: How many BCS schools play in a dome as their home field?

The purists will die by their convictions that football is meant to be played on real grass and outdoors.

Baseball purists will argue the same, but are a dying breed (just like Robin Roberts who just passed away).

Basketball purists have no topic of discussion here.

Soccer purists.....well......who cares about them anyway.

kufreak1512 7 years, 11 months ago

The only schools I know of that play in a dome are Idaho and Syracuse

HawkInAL 7 years, 11 months ago

worst home crowd I've ever seen was watching Tulane host U of Houston this year. Less than 5000 in attendance and 2/3 of those were Houston fans. Brutal....

Oh yeah, the next day the Saints packed the place.

KCHawk81 7 years, 11 months ago

Again? Were you napping last fall? Turner Gill had no problems recruiting Texans to Buffalo, NY. Which part of that 08 season has you longing for the glory of yesteryear? Losing to mizzou, or beating an overrated Va Tech team in unconvincing fashion? Or is it the other, mediocre-to-terrible years from 2002 to present that did it for you?

Tony Bandle 7 years, 11 months ago

azalum..awesome answer. Actually, an inflatible roof would not be out of the question from a technology standpoint. It's just that they are so God-awful ugly!!

Randy Bombardier 7 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate, username = intelligent design, as in creationist. Hello, Jaybate?

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago


I'm right here, and very intelligently designed in some ways, but not so intelligently designed in others.

What is it? What do you need?

rcjh22 7 years, 11 months ago

This is random but Big Ten has extended an offer to Missery and Nebraska to join the conference. They say Missery is a for sure yes

Martin Rosenblum 7 years, 11 months ago

Will there be two Big 12s then if we find two new schools?

Andrew Moore 7 years, 11 months ago

Don't listen to a word of that garbage on 810 radio. They're the folks propagating this "official" offer stuff through their "multiple sources".

Kleitzman is a joke for a journalist.

rcjh22 7 years, 11 months ago

This was on Sportscenter when I saw it.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Dear ralster,

So many pertinent and perspicacious comments in reply.

  1. I agree that nested replies lessen the quality and organic evolution of a thread in my posting experience. The absence of them was one of the things that appealed to me so much about until now. I would much prefer not to have the nested thread breaking up the lively, surprising, and sinuous communal flow of a thread. By breaking down chronology with nesting, nested replies tend to break down the momentum and development oof the thread and so Balkanize it, so that it does not take on so much of a life of its own. Nested threads balkanize the thread into a bunch smaller branching threads between smaller, and smaller groups of persons. I prefer the thread simply unfolding one after the other, so one can easily get a feel for how the thread is evolving over time. Time is of the essence in contracts, and in threads. :-) I would certainly vote with you to remove the sub-reply button that nests posts.

  2. I ran into the problem of jumbled posts, because I did try to do exactly as you suggested; that is, post them one after another, rather than nesting them one after the other. When I nest them using sub-reply, they appear in order, though the indentions seems kind of stupid. Perhaps it is operator error. But I have tried a few times to check for that and have found none so far. For your satisfaction, I will try to resume posting without nesting and see if I can keep them in order with more care. If I fail, it will be apparent.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

  1. You might be right that bulking up would hurt trey accuracy, but I doubt it. Among last season's players, Tyrel getting bigger and stronger over his previous season did not seem to hurt him, Tyshawn and Brady did not get bigger and stronger (Ty played U ball, and Brady worked on endurance) and their accuracies deteriorated. I can't say what happened to Teahan's shot. Sherron did not seem to bulk up much and his trey average went down also. Kieff bulked up in a big way and his trey improved sharply. Xavier came in all musclely and with an NBA body, and had a fine shooting year. From my own personal experience way back in the dark ages, the best thing I ever did with my jump shot was to do a lot of weight lifting with my arms. It hugely increased my range, so that I could shoot at least 2-3 feet farther out, and shoot much more accurately at the previous year's maximum distance of 2-3 further in. I am a believer that weight lifting and added weight trigtger net positive effects for all technical aspects of basketball. The negative from weight lifting and weight gain, as we saw last season, is decreased endurance and some times less flexibility and grace in transition. But in an age when no foul calling and rough play prevail the last two months of the season, and when XTreme Muscle Ball can get away with turning most games into possession games, where trey shooting (and FT shooting down the stretch of games, when fouls maybe called), there is no significant disadvantage to bulking up, except for loss of endurance. But that is not a bad trade-off when referees will allow bulked-up palookas neuter an opponent's long and athletic stars for extended periods, so that you can rest up your own bulked up stars.

  2. The minute I read that about Little losing 5 I feared for Little and KU. His quickness can only beat bulked up palookas, and cheap shotters like Duke, if they are not allowed to foul him to slow down his quickness. If they are allowed to foul him to slow down his quickness, then he is just going to be 5 pounds easier to push out of his cuts. Bench pressing strength, and all sorts of upper body strength building, are a great thing. They allow you to shoot the trey from farther out. They allow you to take the ball up stronger to the rim with your arms. They allow you to hold onto, or rip a rebound away, from a weaker player. But in XTReme Muscle Ball, where pushing and shoving and bodying are the norm, less weight just means that many more opponents that will be able to push you away from the rebound, before you can apply your superior upper body strength to rip it down. Similarly, less weight means that many more opponents that will be able to push you out of your cuts to the rim, before you get to use your superior upper body strength to finish, or deny you your post up position on the blocks, before you can pivot and use your superior upper body strength to finish around the basket.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Cole, at 260, just could not hold his own against 280-290 pounders. Little at 210 will not be able to hold his own against 225 pounders, probably once February starts, certainly once March does. The game is no longer called as it was in 2008. when KU could get away with up and under defense by short, lean, quick guys on tall lean guys. Everyone at least has to be as solid as RR became. You have to have weight and strength, now, especially at the 3.

  1. I am glad you bring up Kobe and MJ. If you have Superstar skills in the NBA, you will be protected and so you do not have to bulk up to stand up to the fouling. The NBA has always had a two-tiered fouling standard: one where stars are largely protected and fouls are called even when they do not occur; and one where the non-stars are fouled at will without calls. Each team tends to be allowed one or two protected players. And among those protected players, a few true superstars are literally allowed to do anything they want including walking, double dribbling, flagrant fouling, etc., without being fouled beyond their ability to perform. The two-tiered fouling system is so strong that stars can be almost puny in the NBA, if they have great enough offensive talents. The NBA refs will protect them enough to do their crowd pleasing acts. Steve Nash, were he to come along today in D1, very well might not show well enough in D1 to get drafted into the NBA in the first place.Nash's game requires room to operate. This past season's Elite Eight teams simply would have given him the room free of body contact in which to operate. They would have held him, pushed him, tripped him, and bodied him, and hacked him and the refs would not have protected him. It may not be far off, but right now the NCAA refs still let everyone foul. They only seem to favor certain marquis teams, not marquis players. This is probably because the marquis players tend to jump so quickly. Stars don't stay long enough for a star system of protective foul calling to emerge in the NCAA.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

  1. Mental toughness has always been crucial in basketball, but it once depended more on competitive greatness as one approached exhaustion, than who could stand up to the most physical intimidation. Now, mental toughness has to include who can stand up to the most physical intimidation. The basic difference between Tyshawn Taylor and Tyrel Reed last season, outside of Ty's superior quickness and Tyrel's literally fabulous trey shooting, was Tyrel's mental toughness that allowed him to perform well even when the XTReme Muscle started in February. Ty just never did want to mix it up physically and when he started trying to do so down the stretch after a season of mind games by Self to make him do so, much of his game folded, even as his defense improved from mixing it up a little more. Tyshawn is already strong. He is cut and no doubt benches and leg presses quite well before his Hudy treatment. But he has got enough bulk to stand his ground when they start bodying him. He's just too light. Tyshawn at 200-205 pounds, with a solidness of build like RR had his last season, would probably become fabulously better than Tyrel in most ways except shooting. Ty bulking up might even improve his shooting, simply because getting bigger and stronger has a tremendous placebo affect in confidence. No one likes getting pushed around. It is bad for your self-esteem and self-confidence. Every time Ty went to the rim and had to fade away, a little piece of his swagger was chipped away. And worse, every time he faded away, it was recorded on game tape the other teams watched, and every game the opponents grew more and more convinced he was just a lightening fast wimp they could muscle. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the only thing standing between Tyshawn Taylor and stellar season and quick jump to the pros is a 15-20 pounds and 500 treys a day.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Note: I tried it without nesting, i.e., using sub reply and it did not work. No operator error.

Jim Williamson 7 years, 11 months ago

It should be noted now that this very well could be a long season, but not so much because of Gill. Mangino has left the cupboard nearly as thin on the defensive side of the ball as it was in year two or three of his tenure. The starters are good players, but one or two injuries and the Jayhawks are screwed on that side of the ball.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago


It does not happen to KU's benefit, because Self has not fully embraced XTReme Muscle ball yet. His philosophy of play you any way you want, requires that he retain the physical ability to play up tempo, or a possession game. To do this, he has chosen to keep his long and athletic players, but bulk them up somewhat, while also teaching them to play rougher. It is a little of this an a little of that approach. It worked great most of the season, because KU really did have a lot of talent, probably more than everyone else, certainly more experienced talent. But down the stretch, as the games got rougher and rougher, the most talented team in the country last season, kept having more and more closer and closer games. And it kept being drug down the same muscle ball, grind it out rat hole every time.

The thing is: if KU is going to drug down that same rat hold of possession and muscle ball, it might as well muscle up to the max. If it gets too bulky to run, then it can just use its muscle as MSU and WVU and Northern Iowa and so on did. It can get so physical that it turns any games against uptempo opponents into possession games.

To reiterate my hypothesis, based in part on my own experience as a little league, jr. high, and city league ref, and based on watching refs over the years, goes like this:

a) refs call some fouls early to establish control and let players know what kind of fouling will and will not be tolerated;

b) next, the refs stop calling most fouls and let the game unfold in the mid portion of each half, because the game establishes its own momentum of play that a ref gets in rhythm with himself (refs feel effective when their early coercion by calling fouls gives way shortly to their power, which is the players willingly complying to the level of contact the ref feels is appropriate;

c) refs call a few fouls down the stretch of each half, because coaches start applying pressure in time outs on players to make plays, to play tougher, and to close a gap, or hold a gap at the end of the half; fouls called late in halves are a reaction to the intensified competition and are intended to keep the game from getting too ragged going into half time.

I would like to see someone graph foul calls to see when most fouls occur to see if empirical data would support my hypothesis.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Part II

My related hypothesis is that in televised games, the pressure to stay a few minutes plus or minus within the time slot allowed, causes refs to call a few fouls very quickly in hopes of establishing control quickly, then calling even fewer fouls during a longer middle portion of each half, so as to shorten the game as much as possible before the last 3 minutes of each half, Refs know that during the last three minutes of each half coaches will intervene strategically with Time Outs and with fouling and so on, so the ref wants to build as big of a time cushion as possible before the fouling and Time Outs begin dragging out the game the last three minutes.

Now for the third related hypothesis, which involves coaching behavior given the above tendencies of referees.

At the D1 level, in televised games, given the above equilibrium strategies of referees, I hypothesize that coaches, based on rational expectations formed from refs having behaved this way in the past, get into a two-player game with each other. Each is trying to top the other by having his players foul hardest early to try to intimidate the other team, because they know some fouls are going to be called early regardless. Some coaches tend to be more aggressive early, especially if they have a lot of depth--say, 9-10 players instead of only 7-8.

Over time, coaches learn from prior experiences that they either had their teams foul too hard, or not hard enough in the early going.

Over time, coaches with more depth and muscle know that fouling early, often and hard, is a great way to: a) intimidate the opponent; and b) condition the ref to feel he has succeeded in bringing the game under control from a very high, almost threatening level of early physical contact, to scale of contact that less intense, but vastly higher than he would have accepted had the early fouling been gentlemanly and light.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Part III

Basically, what I am suggesting is that refs get desensitized to levels of contact and see contact in relative, not absolute terms through much of the spectrum of contact. If Coach A exposes a ref to 2x level of violence in early fouling, the ref will be satisfied with reducing it to 1x level of violence during the mid periods when the ref wants to "let'em play" to fit time constraints. But if Coach A exposes the ref to a 4x level of contact in early fouling, the ref will be satisfied with reducing contact to a 2x level during the mid periods, when the ref wants to "let'em play."

Izzo is a master of this. He is committed to it every year now. He plays 9 man teams of guys massively muscled up. He doesn't even care if most of his players can score.

Izzo starts out with intense, threatening, physical aggression early, because he knows the fouls are going to be called no matter what early in the game, so if one fouls big time early, say even throwing elbows and fists, as MSU players do when facing a tough opponent, but definitely really severe pushing and bodying even against lesser opponents, then when he scales down the intensity of fouling in the whistle-swallowed mid stretches of the half his team will be able to get away with much more contact. This contract directly discounts the value of opposing teams long and athletic scorers and turns games into possession games whenever he thinks a slow pace and smash mouth is the way to win. The last three minutes of each half, basically Izzo plays it straight, if he's ahead in order to minimize fouling, or if he has some fouls to give and is behind, tells his guys to seriously unload on players, because the refs are likely to call fouls anyway the last 3 minutes.

Refs are control freaks as surely as coaches are.

Refs don't like to go into half times without feeling they have regained control of the game the last few minutes and set a tone for the second half they will reinforce with just a few more calls.

Coaches know this.

Their is an escalating dynamic to this over time. There is a competition in a two player game between coaches to see how much of an advantage one can gain with intensifying contact. Until the university presidents and NCAA leadership demand the game be cleaned up, it just keeps getting worse, the players just keep getting more and more brawny, and the game slows down more and more and lower scoring prevails more and more in games late in the season, especially during the Madness.

Basically, a XTReme Muscle can slow down an up-tempo team a lot more in a fouling free-for-all, than an uptempo team can speed up an XTReme Muscle team in a fouling free-for-all.

Advantage: XTReme Muscle.

He not busy getting bulk is busy dying...until the game is cleaned up.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Post Script:

I love it. Someone gave me a virus. I have arrived.

Ron Franklin 7 years, 11 months ago


I agree with your theory. I have wondered the same regarding the timing of fouls. I've thought about gathering the data, but my long days of watching taped behavior in a labs are over. I see no other way than sitting through game tape after game tape tallying fouls and marking the time at which they occurred, so I'll have to pass on proving the hypotheses true and go with my intuition. I'd also like to see a study showing what level of violence is considered a 'foul' across different conferences.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Part I


Self apparently thinks a lot of Izzo's approach, because he has added a good deal of muscle ball to his game starting back in his time at Illinois.

Compare his Illinois teams to his Tulsa teams. Illinois was an order of magnitude rougher than his Tulsa teams, though I know I have only seen a few games of his Tulsa teams. But at Tulsa, he coached a lot of up-tempo, as nearly as I can recall.

At Illiniois, he began his migration to embrace play it anyway you want--mixing muscular possesion ball with up tempo.

When he came to KU, everyone expected him to get out and play up tempo.

What happened?

The first few years coaching a combination of Roy's boys and his new recruits, he said he just couldn't play up tempo. He had to play through Simien.

But by the time he had a team full of guys that could play up tempo--Rush's core group--the B12 had begun to get rougher, more like the Big 10. Knight and Barnes and Sadler and Sampson guarantied a cluster of bruising games. And Gillispie, who had learned the same lessons from Izzo, as Self had learned, instantly muscled TAM up.

During the years of Rush's core group, the fun of watching lay in trying to guess when KU was going to shake loose from the pounding half court game and then kick it into high gear in transition and run 10-20 points on a team.

But that was possible, because the referees then still limited contact sufficiently that one could actually move up tempo, when the opponent finally gave Self and KU the running game, by having to keep more guys around the offensive basket to rebound, than to release as safeties on defense to stop KU's formidable transition attack. When the opponent had to score, had to get offensive boards to get stick backs, when there were only one, or two safeties released to stop KU's running game, then Self unleashed his grey hounds and it was beautiful to watch.

Still, Self was not forcing tempo. He was taking what they gave him.

jaybate 7 years, 11 months ago

Part II

But in the age of XTReme Muscle Ball, the intensity of allowed physical contact can literally stop the transition game with pushing, tripping, punching, blocking, and hacking. It can slow down the outlet pass. It can slow down the pace down the floor. It can force people out of the three lanes down the floor. And most importantly, the fouling can drastically reduce the high percentage shot on a fast break to a low percentage shot. During the long stretches of the middle of the halves, the times when the Rush era teams would inevitably break out and run for 3-5 minute stretches, possession ball prevails instead today. Consequently, SelfBall cannot create the separations it once so consistently did. not because of lesser material, but because of greater physical contact allowed by referees taking away those up-tempo spurts.

Can Self figure out a way to run and separate in this sort of physical environment?

If anyone could, he could.

I am on record as saying he is a kind of genius, already.

But I don't see any way and I don't believe he does either.

I believe he knows he had the best talent this past season, and he did a great coaching job, and his players, except for Ty played near their potentials, given what defenses were doing to them. He knows that he went 33-3, but got out muscled on an off shooting night in the Madness. He knows he could have won that Northern Iowa game 9 times out of 10, because 9 times out of 10 KU shoots 35% or better from trey and wins.

But he also knows that Mike K and Duke won under the same circumstances, with much less talent, by cheap shotting, instead of playing XTReme Muscle. Duke just did not have the bodies to play XTReme Muscle. They had to cheap shot and Mike K has always coached cheap shotting, so it was a rational move on his part.

Self has three choices:

a) invent a way to run in this enviornment;

b) go XTReme Muscle in bulking up; or

c) coach cheap shottiing the way Mike K, Bob Knight, and Lute Olson always have done.

I don't see how he can invent a running game in this environment.

He has a fabulous weight coach in Hudy.

XTReme Muscle ball is a lot less unethical than cheap shotting.

Self has always seemed to choose the least unethical path.

I can't see him coaching cheap shotting, like Mike K.

But I can't see him finding a way to run in this environment.

So: I can only see him bulking his players up and coaching XTReme Muscle the way Izzo does, but without the fists...which may come later, if the refs don't clean the game up, though I suspect he will jump to the NBA and take the money there, rather than coach fists in Division 1..

Commenting has been disabled for this item.