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Originally published February 20, 2010 at 12:00a.m., updated February 20, 2010 at 12:38p.m.

KU’s Collins can tie wins record today

Kansas guard Sherron Collins gets the crowd going in the final minutes of Saturday's game against Nebraska.

Kansas guard Sherron Collins gets the crowd going in the final minutes of Saturday's game against Nebraska.

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Cole Aldrich grew a bit emotional Thursday as he reflected on the career of one of the greatest players in Kansas University basketball history.

The 6-foot-11 junior center actually had goose bumps rise up on both arms while storytelling about Sherron Collins, Aldrich’s teammate and good buddy who today can tie Raef LaFrentz, Billy Thomas and C.B. McGrath as KU’s all-time winningest players in a four-year span.

“He has put his heart and tears into everything that is Kansas basketball. It just means the world to him,” Aldrich said of Collins, who has been part of 122 victories against 17 defeats heading into today’s 3 p.m. home contest against Colorado.

LaFrentz, Thomas and McGrath went 123-17 from 1995 to ’98.

“He’s so passionate. He loves playing the game and loves being competitive,” Aldrich added of the point-guard deluxe who ranks 10th in scoring, seventh in assists, fourth in three-pointers made and 20th in steals on KU’s career charts.

To Aldrich, one memory stands out above the rest.

“I still remember my freshman year when Sherron was dribbling on the opposite side of the court. I’m sitting right next to Jeremy Case in the national championship game, and I’m like, ‘Jeremy, why is he not running down the court? What is he doing just dribbling the ball? Does he not know there’s eight seconds left?’’’ Aldrich said.

Of course, sophomore floor general Collins knew KU trailed Memphis by three points with time running out in the 2008 title game in San Antonio’s Alamodome.

He scooped the basketball to Mario Chalmers, who drilled the shot that sent the game into OT, where KU won going away.

“Those memories will always stick with you — the huge plays that he’s made for us and just the great guy he’s been in the locker room,” Aldrich said.

With a maximum of 14 games remaining in the 2009-10 season, Collins has a realistic shot at catching Shane Battier and other Duke seniors in the Class of 2001 as winningest collegiate player of all-time (133 victories in four years).

“That’s a great accomplishment. It’s a testament to what a great player Sherron is and how many wins he’s produced here at Kansas,” KU junior Tyrel Reed said. “I think it’s a big deal for him and we’re really proud of him.”

Collins admits it’d be special to defeat the Buffs (12-13, 3-8) today and etch his name into KU history books with Brady Morningstar, who also has been a Jayhawk the past four years. Junior guard Morningstar practiced, but did not play in games as a red-shirt during the ’08 title campaign.

“It’d be exciting,” Collins said of netting the KU wins record. “It’s a compliment. It’s a reflection on the guys on the teams who’ve been here with me. It’s a reflection on coach (Bill) Self, getting two or three different groups of guys buying into his system.

“Since I’ve been here all it’s been about is playing hard and winning. I thank coach and all the other guys who helped me do it. I couldn't do it myself,” Collins added.

Leader of a KU team that has won 25 of 26 games and all 11 league contests, Collins has not been shaken over a personal slump of sorts. In the last five games, Collins has averaged 13.2 ppg off 31.3 percent (20-of-64) shooting. He’s made eight of 29 threes for 27.5 percent while dishing 22 assists against 13 turnovers. In KU’s first six conference contests, he had averaged 15.3 points a game off 41.7 percent shooting (30-of-72). He hit 12-of-31 threes (38.7 percent) while dishing 24 assists against 13 turnovers.

“He’s not being very aggressive. He’s not driving the ball. He’s got to get his shoulders past people,” Self said of Collins, who through 26 games averages 15.1 ppg off 42.4 percent shooting with 109 assists versus 56 turnovers.

“He has to get in the paint and make plays. He can certainly do that. He’s probably settling too much right now. I’m not making a big deal out of him not shooting well. I don’t think it’s anything we need to be overly concerned with. He has to become more aggressive and go make plays for others instead of relying on just making jump shots,” Self added.

Collins isn’t stressing about his shooting stroke.

“I’ve been shooting it well in practice. It’s just not falling right now,” Collins said.

Self has said many times he wouldn’t trade Collins for any other guard in the country.

“Shooting percentages don’t matter. Assists don’t matter. Steals don’t matter. All that matters is you win. That’s why I think he’s the best. He does whatever we need to win,” Self said, hoping to witness historic victory No. 123 today.

• A previous version of this story contained an error.

Comments

lv_jhwk 9 years, 11 months ago

Can someone explain how Morningstar merits any mention with this record? I understand that he was part of the team during the past four years as well, but if you aren't capable of stepping onto the floor (which you obviously can't during a redshirt season) then how can you be given credit for those games?

lv_jhwk 9 years, 11 months ago

Can someone explain how Morningstar merits any mention with this record? I understand that he was part of the team during the past four years as well, but if you aren't capable of stepping onto the floor (which you obviously can't during a redshirt season) then how can you be given credit for those games?

ParisHawk 9 years, 11 months ago

lv_jhwk,

Matt Kleinman was given credit for five Big 12 Conference titles although he redshirted one year.

Come to think of it, why doesn't Kleinman have the record ?

You may have a point: if redshirt years counted, the record would be way more than 123 and the record holders would be five-year players.

James Miller 9 years, 11 months ago

Sherron,

I am a man. I consider myself a "man's man.' I think I will cry on senior night. We are all going to miss you next year. You're leadership has been immeasurable, and you are absolutely nails in the clutch.
You have been a joy to watch. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tophawk1983 9 years, 11 months ago

Somebody please respond to this!!! Does anyone know how or where to get a feed of senior night if they can't go to AF? I don't know if they carry it online...or perhaps on a local station in lawrence? Please if you have any info let me know thanks in advance.

MinnesotaJay 9 years, 11 months ago

Winning 2 more games will make him the all-time winningest player at KU. Might as well consider it a done deal. But, he's actually got a shot at becoming the winningest player in the history of college basketball, and could take that distinction away from the Dukies. Another national title might just do the trick!!!

kansas22 9 years, 11 months ago

I can't believe I'll only be able to watch this guy play 3 more games in The Phog. Sherron has been (obviously) one of the most successful players ever here and it's been awesome to see him all 4 years. Capping it off with another national title would just be the cherry on top of a stellar career. Thank you Sherron!

dynamitehawk 9 years, 11 months ago

Elijah - watch and learn. In fact, watch that moive Single White Female. Sure your not female, or white, or psycho.... Nevermind... Congrats to the human cannon ball with balls of solid steel.

Mo Golany 9 years, 11 months ago

sherron was a sophmore not freshman for the title game.

Robert Brock 9 years, 11 months ago

Oh, and Jayhawks: Don't forget to win the game. We played poorly in Boulder and were fortunate to pull out the win there. Today the Buffs have Burks playing. It is time to start putting things together (like some real offense).

jaybate 9 years, 11 months ago

} Sherron Collins = Mr. Impact = Mr. Ring = Mr. Winner = Best KU PG ever.

} Would KU like to have Josh Selby and Brandon Knight join KU next season? I am beginning to think this is a significant possibility. Why? Because the following dynamics loom:

1) UK is likely to lose Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins and Patterson to NBA;

2) Next UK team likely to be weak, because Cal probably can't get equal front court replacements for Cousins and Patterson from this year's recruiting class (and there's no one on the bench of equal stature); so

3) Cal's only slim chance, if he stays, to be any good next season is to land Knight and Selby as a package to replace Wall and Bledsoe; therefore

4) Selby and Knight could logically think that at UK, they would get instant PT, but weak bigs, little or no ring opportunity, possible NCAA investigations, and possible decommit/recommit process if Cal jumps to New Jersey with Lebron and Wall even before Kinght and Selby get to UK; while

5) at UConm Selby and Knight could logically think that they would get an old and sick Calhoun who may have to resign for health reasons at any moment, plus some good, but not great front court support; whereas

6) at KU Selby and Knight could logically think they would face some competition for PT one season, but they would get Self in his prime sure to stay, a positively dominant front court, excellent shooting forward support; an almost certain Final Four run, as nearly no risk of NCAA investigation as possible, and a stable program and safe community that parents can plug into; and

7) the longer that Knight and Selby wait the more risk there might be of an NCAA investigation of UK surfacing and the more temptation there might be on Cal to jump to New Jersey to avoid the risk of a real rebuilding season next year and a potential NCAA investigation.

jaybate 9 years, 11 months ago

The above dynamics make me think KU, or UConn, may be increasingly the front runners for both Selby and Knight.

Assuming there are no illegal incentives being offered by, say, UConn, Selby's and Knight's choices increasingly distill to Self vs. Calhoun, and KU vs. UConn, since both teams offer good returning nuclei, though KU's is probably much better.

Who would you rather play for? :-)

Which basketball tradition would you rather plug into? :-)

} One more thing about Selby and Knight: Selby appears to be the true point guard of the two. Knight is referred to as a shooting guard most often with 22 feet range. Selby can be his best at KU, because Selby needs a great supporting cast to really show his stuff and KU will have that great supporting cast. Knight needs a very good point guard to be fed by, and he needs some serious bigs that cause some sagging to create kick outs for his trinitizing. If KU were to sign Selby, KU would be the best place for Knight to be. Period.

} Oh, and one more thing discouraging about UK's situation for UK fans: UK apparently has only one commit, so far, despite appearing likely to lose four of five starters. UK apparently has no big man commits. Its one apparent commit is Stacey Poole, a shooting guard. KU also only has one commit so far, but KU has another solid nucleus coming back next year with some potential stars, a deep front court and back court, and a ton of experience. UK apparently does not. UK appears to be in dire straights for next season unless Selby and Knight sign. UK appears to need Selby and Knight in the worst way just to stay Top 25. Without them, they could fall to .500. No wonder there appears to be so much lurking, disinformation and fear and loathing coming out of Lexington.

Note: All opining in this thread.

Jayhacker 9 years, 11 months ago

The "winningest player" stat is a slippery one. To me, that should only count games in which the player participated, not those in which he was on the roster. For example, I am sure that there were lots of games in which C.B. McGrath never left the bench. This definition would obviously exclude redshirt seasons. Wonder if anyone keeps tabs that way? No matter the definition, Sherron is to be congratulated for everything he's contributed to the program, and thanked for all the memorable moments he's given us fans.

Max Ledom 9 years, 11 months ago

Sherron Collins was a Sophomore. Not a Freshman in the title game.

weegee 9 years, 11 months ago

The "freshman" comment is in reference to the year in which Aldrich played.

Steve Brown 9 years, 11 months ago

Sherron, awesome & big time thanks. Fans let's not celebrate yet, lots of games before I sleep.

Is recent poor shooting percentage related to stress of new daughter + tired legs + knowing the carnival ride is nearing the end. how can it be fixed before the march dance? or can we win 6 games w. SC not hitting the shot from the outside.

Joe Baker 9 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate- I've been waiting, watching and listening to the three intentions. Knight, Selby and Lamb have all but announced where they are going. I hope your theory is right. But realistically, all indications have been vague. I totally agree that uk's bigs will be utterly weak. Their coach is weak when it comes to recruiting and developing his bigs. In fact that area of his resume is a total joke. Selby may be seriously considering KU. He is considering UConn, but I think your analysis is spot on for Selby. UConn is self destructing right before our eyes. The program is crumbling and it doesn't look encouraging for Calhoun. I haven't heard much from Lamb except his dad has been very vocal about them taking their time. Syracuse may also be in the mix for maybe Knight. kushaw may have some insight too concerning the situation.

I trust the Hawks can wrap this game up and provide Collins with a little gift today. It will be a special game for the entire team. They will all have a chance to build their own memories this season and this day is the beginning for most of them.

Rock Chalk Beat CU!

Chicago_JHawk 9 years, 11 months ago

tophawk1983 - They usually post videos of the speeches here the next day, but I'm not sue there is anyway to get a live feed.

Darrel Stice 9 years, 11 months ago

All I can say is that it's a GREAT time to be a Jayhawk!!!

We are closing in on 2000 wins (and could beat UNC to it with some luck), we are 25-1 and #1 in the country, we are deep and the seeds are planted to stay deep, and we have the best point gaurd in the country leading us through a phenomenal season! This season has been and will continue to be one great ride, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it - even with the occasional nail-biter. :)

I had the pleasure of meeting Sherron at his very first Late Night, and I didn't even know who he was. He was very nice, soft spoken, and humble. It took all of about 20 seconds watching him play that night to realize he was something VERY special! I've been a Sherron fan ever since!

Congrats Sherron! You have made us all so proud, and we are blessed to get to watch you play!!!

kansasbasketball 9 years, 11 months ago

tophawk1983- i know you can hear it on the radio. just the regular stations that broadcast the game!

Paul Brozik 9 years, 11 months ago

in an article the other day, they referred to the record as the most wins in a four year span. I think it just doesn't sound as sexy as saying ku's all-time winningest player.

Robert Brock 9 years, 11 months ago

KU has a great chance to get Selby. No chance with Knight, IMO.

Joe Baker 9 years, 11 months ago

I'll miss #4, aka simply "SC"! He deserves the best of life.

Keep Rockin' the Chalk Sherron now and beyond KU!!

jayhawkboogeyman 9 years, 11 months ago

"Of course, freshman floor general Collins knew KU trailed Memphis by three points with time running out in the 2008 title game in San Antonio’s Alamodome."

sherron was a sophomore that game, not freshman. Someone mentioned above, but someone else said the comment about freshman wasn't relating to Sherron. Clearly it is.

kuproud96 9 years, 11 months ago

Congrats Sherron!! But i agree with Sooballs, Jacque Vaughn is KU's greatest true point guard.

kvskubball 9 years, 11 months ago

Yeah, that is a double-dribble there from the article writer. He/she has one paragraph talking about Cole being a freshman then says that Collins was a freshman too in the next paragraph. Those who said Collins was a soph. during the national title year, are of course correct....

JHWK 9 years, 11 months ago

Wow! The winningest PLAYER in KU history! What an accomplishment, and something for us all to be proud of - but especially for Sherron to be proud of!

LaFrentz is the only other who played in the games, like Collins. Thomas and McGrath were lucky to get in some seasons, but they should also be proud to have been part of the winningest TEAMS.

I agree, there are other guards I'd rather have, in KU's history, making decisions with the game close, but HCBS is so right: Collins wins. No one can dispute that we have W's, despite the ugliness of some of the wins. Crazy as the ride has been, few KU teams have had this record on Feb. 20.

As has been mentioned by some of you, I agree that his senior night will be one of the most emotional of any I can remember, and I've been a fan since I knew what Bball was. It is a damn shame the game isn't a national broadcast for those of us not in Kansas.

Rock Chalk, Sherron! You deserve to be honored in dramatic fashion - as the winningest player in the best program in the history of NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball! :) Wouldn't any recruit be crazy not to join this program?????!!!!

Rod Huffman 9 years, 11 months ago

“I still remember my freshman year when Sherron was dribbling on the opposite side of the court. I’m sitting right next to Jeremy Case in the national championship game, and I’m like, ‘Jeremy, why is he not running down the court? What is he doing just dribbling the ball? Does he not know there’s eight seconds left?’’’ Aldrich said.

People where does it say anything about Sherron being a freshman in this paragraph? It clearly states that "Cole" is talking about "his" freshman year not Sherron's. Come on read what is there and nothing else. Congrats to go Sherron and hope you break the NCAA record as well! Rock Chalk!

Tony Bandle 9 years, 11 months ago

kuproud96, soobawls, Jaybate..Sherron Collins and Jacque Vaughn are the best point guards in Kansas history.......not named Jo Jo White!!

Jo Jo operated under a system by Ted Owens that actually minimized his vast talents that would later be showcased in the NBA [as his plaque in the Basketball Hall of Fame attests]

If there had been a three point shot in effect during his career, he might have led the nation in scoring.

If the criteria for best is based on team results during as career, that's one thing but, if it means best individual talent..it's no contest with all due respect for Sherron and Jacques.

All-Time KU team pre-1960: Chamberlain, Lovellette, Born, Endicott and [help me here old timers!!]

All-time KU team post-1960: White,Pearce,Collins,Manning and [help me here whippersnappers]

tstanlick1909 9 years, 11 months ago

I remember when Collins was 6th man on the 08 title team. Has there ever been a better sixth man in KU history, or NCAA history for that matter? As far as greatest ever is concerned, I don't consider Collins to be a true point guard. Nonetheless, he is IMO the greatest perimeter player in Kansas history (as far as numbers are concerned) Obviously there are so many other players who can vie for that honor, and that is why it is so nice to be a Jayhawk.

bate: While your logic regarding the signing of both Selby and Knight was bulletproof, do you really think John-John is going to be deprived of a top 5 point guard? Given the fact that his last 3 freshman point guard phenoms have been national hype men and all went very high in the draft (I anticipate #1 overall for Wall, unfortunately)

I think Selby is considering KU and UK, possibly Arizona. While Knight is probably looking at KU, UK, and Syracuse. I think we get one or the other.

And I agree, Selby is a better fit for our program. Plus that boy can sky!

Lance Hobson 9 years, 11 months ago

I Collins doesn't go off today he will Monday. The guy is a winner and I am thankful he chose KU.

Steve Gantz 9 years, 11 months ago

He's hard to fit into a category as best point guard, best perimeter player, best shooting guard because he's really a mixture of all these. Probably have seen better in each of those, but the combination of the 3 is what makes him special. Been fun (and frustrating) to watch him play. No doubt he's one of the great ones in KU history.

63Jayhawk 9 years, 11 months ago

With reference to the discussion about Selby, Knight, and Lamb, I don't know the scholarship status of the other schools being considered by these three, but at this point in time, coach Self has no scholarships to give. The scholarship status of the team on the hill will not be known until Aldrich, Henry, and possibly Morris make it clear that they are or are not declaring for the NBA draft. I consider it to be a positive sign that Selby, Knight, and Lamb are waiting to decide.

Sparko 9 years, 11 months ago

Oddly, the comments on the story linked from the home page are different from the sports section. Weird discontinuity; but I'll say again, Collins is a highlander. No one wants to win more or has ever tried harder in a Kansas uniform. He is the best and truest competitor to ever lace them up. Kovisto, White, Manning, Turgeon, Haase, and Aldrich all join him in my mind, but Collins would literally die for a loose ball. He is the kind of man that can out-compete a Cookie Miller or Derrick Rose.

LAJayhawk 9 years, 11 months ago

tophawk1983-

I emailed Jonathan Kealing, and he said they tried to stream the speeches live, but KU rejected it (one would assume for the same reason we can no longer stream live coverage online like we used to). They will, however, have video of the speeches posted on here afterward as soon as they can. Good news to those of us living in other parts of the country....

And no thanks to the athletic department for making it much more difficult than it used to be in order to sell a few more $10 audio feeds.....

Eliott Reeder 9 years, 11 months ago

Did you just put Cookie Miller and Derrick Rose in the same sentence?

Redlandsjhawk 9 years, 11 months ago

Sparko- agree 100% The way Collins guarded Rose and was taking him off his dribble so easily; the way he stole the inbounds pass and nailed the three to turn the game around; the way he drove the ball up the court and delivered it to Mario; I'm not sure there is another player that could have accomplished all that in the biggest game ever. Call Sherron the best whatever and I'll agree to it.

jayhawkjoe98 9 years, 11 months ago

Collins was a sophomore during the national championship game.

(Not sure if someone already mentioned that)

jayhawkjoe98 9 years, 11 months ago

Collins was a sophomore during the national championship game.

(Not sure if someone already mentioned that)

Steve Gantz 9 years, 11 months ago

Sparko that's a loaded comment "best and truest competitor". How can you say that? No one can say who the best competitor is. I joined Jayhawk nation in 85 and watched Danny Manning for 3 incredible years. But I've never seen anyone from the 50's 60's or 70's. Have you? Even saying he'd outcompete Derrick Rose. That'd be an epic battle that Rose wins I'm guessing. But who really knows? Stick to facts.

LAJayhawk 9 years, 11 months ago

wissox,

This isn't a court of law and there isn't a burden of proof. It's the dude's opinion. Disagree with it if you like, but Sparko is entitled to his own. It's an unprovable statement indeed, but he's not restricted from suggesting it.

Sports arguments are almost always subjective and argumentative anyway. That's the fun of them.

Do you really think ESPN had provable data when constructing their "50 greatest athletes" list? There was a horse in there.... yeah, I'm just saying....

Steve Gantz 9 years, 11 months ago

LA, I don't think I was telling stifling his opinion. I was just offering my opinion about his opinion. I agree it's subjective and it's fun. For the record, all of these best ever discussions have always been a bit suspect in my mind. Sorry if it looked like I was harsh.

Alohahawk 9 years, 11 months ago

Oh, the advantages (and disadvantages) of modern day television coverage. My first experience with Jayhawk basketball and AFH is a game I attended in which Jojo White played. It was quite a memory and one that made me a KU and AFH fan for life. I never thought any guard could perform better than Jojo White.

I graduated in '75 and never missed a home game while attending KU. Now, living in the islands, I am limited to those KU games which are televised (never enough), which I now plan my schedule around months in advance. What a disappointment it is not having the KSU game available on TV. If it were at all possible, I would fly back just to watch SC play in his AFH finale. An absurdity at this point in time, since tickets for this matchup must be impossible to obtain.

There have been many great guards which have played for KU, and it is next to impossible to categorize which has been the best. But, IMHO, I think Sherron has been the most exciting to watch, and has been involved with some of the most significant plays/wins during his career. He has exhibited a junk yard dog tenacity to every game in which he has played.

The Jayhawk nation extends from Maine to Hawaii, and around the world, and I extend my own mahalo (thanks) to Sherron for those outcounted memories (many of which I've watched numerous times on the games I always record). Congratulations in advance for the KU record when it comes, and hope the national record becomes a reality.

Joe Baker 9 years, 11 months ago

What's the feed for the game today against CU?

Joe Baker 9 years, 11 months ago

Where will it be streamed from? Better clarification!

dynamitehawk 9 years, 11 months ago

Here is when I realized that Sherron could really be a gereat player at KU:

And here is when I realized that Sherron Collins is probably not human....

And this is where I realized that Sherron Collins is the baddest MF'er I've ever seen....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmzhCLhzwxY

David Lara 9 years, 11 months ago

Speaking of loving SC and calling him the best PG in KU history, how 'bout some effort on the Bob Cousy Award? I know it was linked here before, but PLEASE GO VOTE FOR SHERRON!!!!

http://www.cousyaward.com/vote.php

He is currently 4TH in the voting (8.9% of vote) behind:

3 Ronald Moore-Sienna (14.4%)

2 Jeremy Lin-Harvard (24.4%)

1 John Wall-Kentucky (30.5%)

Raise your hand if you think there are 3 players in college basketball that are better PGs than Sherron... He has been low in the voting ever since it started, never receiving more single digits in %. DO YOUR PART KU FANS!!!!

LAJayhawk 9 years, 11 months ago

wissox,

Not at all. I suppose I was just offering my opinion of your opinion on his opinion.... uh.....

As to the "best ever" discussions, I agree completely on the suspect nature of such arguments. I have a friend here in So Cal who argues that Kobe is the best ever, superior to Jordan even. I, being a Chicago native during the Jordan years, of course object to such a contention. His logic is that Jordan played in a "big man's" era and Kobe plays in a 3 man era (i.e. LeBron, Wade, etc, etc). He says Jordan is a better athlete which is why Kobe is a better basketball player.... um... yeah.... the logic sounds just as ridiculous to me too......

Anyway, no apology necessary. Rock Chalk to you and continue the discussion. Even those arguments that are suspect can still be quite entertaining.....

Joe Baker 9 years, 11 months ago

Looks like the game will be on ESPN 360 (subject to blackouts) of course!

I would like nothing more than to celebrate a KU win and Collins milestone. I hope to see a Vandy win and uk upset!!!

Have a great game day all!

Jeremy Bloom 9 years, 11 months ago

Thanks @bhann . Sadly, ESPN360 doesn't work in my area. TimeWarner/Roadrunner doesn't support it.

Anyone have a JTV channel streaming?

jaybate 9 years, 11 months ago

Soo, Oak, et al,

I've been around the barn many times on this greatest PG debate and persuaded few to my POV.

First, Jo Jo would be my PG pick, if he had played PG at KU, but he didn't, and then he didn't play it for Boston either, so I put him at the two with Mario Chalmers second.

Second, I am a big fan of JV's but he just couldn't shoot a lick. And he played with great talent and couldn't win a ring. We all remember things differently, but JV was no where near the impact player that Sherron is IMHO. And because JV couldn't shoot a lick, he was no where near as effective as a penetrator as Sherron. Its just a fact. JV was a very good distributor. He was never remotely a great offensive threat. Also, Sherron is just sooooooooooo much stronger than JV and JV was no slouch in that department himself. JV could out muscle many guards. Sherron has outmuscled every guard he ever played against except the guy at Chigan State. Sherron is also actually a tremendous ball handler in the sense that almost no one ever strips it from him. He has never been as flashy of a passer as Vaughn, but part of that has to do with Self preferring less French pastry than Roy, and part of it has to do with the spectacle of dishing in a running game, vs. Sherron tending to labor in half court sets. Also, Sherron is just so much more versatile that JV was. Sherron can run the point, Sherron can go out on the wing. Sherron is literally a threat from any where on the court past half court.I don't think people will truly appreciate how great Sherron is until he's gone for awhile. Sherron just does things every game that no other KU point guard has really ever done. He's amazing.

The minute Sherron crosses half court, opposing defenses have to be on edge every second that he has the ball. He has stunning range on his J. He will drain a trey from 25-30 feet out if the opponent tries to guard the trey stripe. If they follow him out to 25-30 feet, he will drive by them and pull up, or go to the rim. If they give him the trey stripe he will kill them there. If they play the trey fairly tight, he will slice by them and go all the way to the rim no matter how many tall trees are there. If they collapse on him he can dish perfectly well. Sherron is the greatest compound offensive threat at PG I have ever seen at KU. Valentine is his only peer.

I would rank Sherron among the Top 20 greatest offensive threats among short point guards in college basketball history in this regard. You have to step up to the ultimate short guys like Calvin Murphy (who wasn't that short) and Gail Goodrich (the little that Goodrich played the point) and Allen Iverson to get greater offensive threat--all of them being sharply better trey shooters, and Murphy and AI being even faster. FWIW, even though I detest AI, and think he squandered much of his potential, I still rank AI as the greatest offensive threat at short PG ever.

jaybate 9 years, 11 months ago

The only KU PG that can really be considered as a possible alternative all time best candidate is, as I already said, Darnell Valentine. Darnell Valentine was a heckuva basketball talent, and as anomalously strong and burly in his time as Sherron is today. Plus Darnell was 6'2" tall. Part of me says Darnell was the more talented player, who had a long KU career and got quite a bit done. I know his numbers are better than Sherron's in some regards. But when it comes down to going to war to win, I would pick Sherron every time without even hesitating. Sherron is just a force of nature and beyond ferociously competitive. Darnell Valentine had great talent, probably more than Sherron has. But he rarely used more than about 75% of it. Sherron plays at his envelope much of the time. He inspires teammates, coaches, and "some" fans. Opponents, even talented taller ones, dread playing him not just because he is a threat from everywhere, but because he is so aggressive and combative and physically overwhelming in physical contact.

I don't find him the weak passer that others do. What I see is a guy whose coach has wanted him to be an impact player most of the time. I think Sherron could dish very well, if he were asked to as Jacque Vaughn played, but what a waste of a great talent that would be. In fact, I think its kind of incredible that Sherron has as few TOs and as many assists as he does, given that Self encourages him to create so much, and tries to shift so much of the post feeding chores onto low scoring 2s like Tyshawn and Brady the last two years in order to free Sherron up as much as possible.

jaybate 9 years, 11 months ago

I think Pritchard deserves mention in comparison to Sherron also. Pritch was a wonderful, heady PG who played with Danny Manning. Having played with Danny Manning ought to end the debate over who is better, Sherron or Pritch, right away. Pritch played with one of the 50 greatest college basketball players of all time. Sherron has played with Kaun, Shady, and Cole. Manning was so great he made Chris Piper a credible 4. Manning was so great that Pritch could do many things at the point simply because defenses were sagging on Manning all the time. Defenses for much of Sherron's career have actually be geared to stop Sherron. The simple truth is that that '88 team would have been a ton better with Sherron at PG playing with Manning than Pritch. Pritch never, never, never had to carry a team on his back. Sherron did last season. Pritchard could never, never, never, have carried a team on his back. Sherron did.

I don't find Sherron's decision making suspect either. I mean the guys has played PG since he got here about as much as his health would permit him to, and he is about to have won more games than any other KU pg ever. And of the two seasons he was really totally in charge, last season he carried a bunch of green wood on his back to the Sweet 16, and this year they are 25-1 and ranked number 1, and very likely bound for a ring. How good of decision making do you people need? Oh, and Sherron played a key, key, key role on a team that did win a national championship. Valentine never did. Hinrich never did. White never did. No one but Pritch and Sherron have done it in modern times.

You can just go on and on about Sherron. Basically, he's accomplished more than any other KU PG ever in any global sense of the game that you want to consider. Valentine may have had more talent, may have had some better numbers, but he didn't win as much, he didn't carry teams on his back as far, he didn't impact games with huge plays nearly as much as Sherron, he didn't compete nearly as ferociously, and he didn't win any rings. Hinrich may have been a much better shooter, but only when he was the 2 guard and Hinrich only played PG one or two years at most and even then Hinrich was never the first option ever. JV might have played better defense, and dished more assists with fewer TOs, but that's all he did and his lesser TOs came from not having create all the time, to be the first option for his team so much of the time. JV was one or two dimensional compared to Sherron. Jo Jo might have been a much better PG than Sherron, but we'll never know, because he never played it much at all in college and, people tend to gloss over this, he never played point much in the pros either. And so on and so forth.

jaybate 9 years, 11 months ago

Sherron's only real negative is that he just cannot play great defense. His legs are too short and too muscular to really stretch out and slide quite as long and fast as you need to to be a truly great defender. And he seems to lack some of the anticipation of a great defender. But here again he still actually plays very good defense, when healthy, rested, and its a money game. He's playing for Bill Self, after all, and Bill Self demands better defense out of players than any of Roy's players ever had to deliver, so you can just stop saying Sherron's defense was inferior to any of Roy's PGs. FWIW, Sherron guarded Rose for much of the national championship game and got the job done, if I recall correctly.

The only time Sherron's defense is not very good is either when he's got a bad wheel (which he had his first two seasons and so got the label of not defending very well), or when Self has been playing him 32-42 minutes a game for 8 to 10 games in a row. But you see this sort of fall off in many players pushed to their limit who are relied heavily upon on both offense and defense.

I actually think Sherron might make a very good professional basketball player, too. I could see him having a very good career as a Derek Fisher type guard, or a Gale Goodrich type guard, who shares backcourt with a tallish, super star running mate the way Fisher does with Kobe and Goodrich did with Jerry West. But while Sherron just is not yet a shooter of the rank of Gail Goodrich (almost no one is according to Jerry West, who was not a bad shooter himself), he certainly could match Fisher.

But how many Kobes and Jerry Wests are there?

But back to Sherron's rank at KU.

I am sanguine with the weighting of evidence in Sherron's favor as the best, but know that everyone sees this sort of thing through different lenses and values weighs different stats and different accomplishments differently.

Rock Chalk!

jaybate 9 years, 11 months ago

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GreyHawker 9 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate......or should I call you Master.....bhann makes a great point on calling Valentine and JoJo our best PG of all time!!! I saw all of them play and sorry but both are better than Sherron. And that takes nothing away from SC.....as for you.....bhann may or maynot be disabled.....don't know him.....but for you to throw that kinda sh* around....you're just plain pathetic......can't anyone disagree with the great Materbate.....

IBRONNIEB 9 years, 11 months ago

Sherron doesnt have to be the best point guard in KU history, to be considered one of the best players in KU history. One of the most clutch players I've ever seen. And though I hate to give Dickie V credit for anything other than being long winded, he was right about Sherron being a winner. And no one can ever say he didnt give 100%. Thank You Sherron, for four years of outstanding basketball!!!!! May it finish with another NC.

Steve Brown 9 years, 11 months ago

In many leagues you have to wait a few years to vote a player into hall of fame. this is for good reason, that at any given time you have to admire the one with you now.. sort of like my pal saying his 4th wife is his best...I said, wait to judge her until your 6th one.

Sherron among best guards I've seen in AFH along with my favorite JoJo and then Darnell and the very best guards, were Dantley, Robertson *(50 pts.), Bibby, the dad not the son, May Macy etc. we've had some good ones play one game in AFH, but we all have our favorties, Jo Jo for me. Yet if we just get to Indy, then certainly the Man has claim to be the best..certainly the winningest...I"m gladc we have choices to argue about...

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