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Thursday, December 23, 2010

Bears: Basketball game against Jayhawks ‘just physical’

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Highlights: KU vs. Cal

Kansas defeated Cal, 78-63 on Wednesday Dec. 22, 2010 at Haas Pavilion in Berkeley, Calif.

— The Cal players said there were no hard feelings following their 78-63 loss to Kansas University in a rough game Wednesday night.

“Just physical. Just two teams going hard,” Cal center Markhuri Sanders-Frison said. “That was it.”

The two teams combined for 45 fouls, including three technicals.

“It was just two teams competing hard,” Cal guard Allen Crabbe said. “... I know both teams wanted this game.”

One of the roughest scenes was early in the second half, when Cal guard Jorge Gutierrez had to be restrained by coach Mike Montgomery following a tie-up with KU’s Thomas Robinson.

Both players received technical fouls.

“It pumped us up,” Crabbe said. “After that we had a little run. It pumped us up, and the crowd got into it.”

Still, the play bumped Gutierrez’s foul total up to four and put him on the bench for an extended period.

“We’ve got some guys trying to take care of themselves out there,” Montgomery said, “and it cost us.”

Montgomery said Gutierrez needed to be smarter in that situation.

“Gotta love Jorge. He’s the greatest. He’s the best, but he’s a stubborn son of a gun,” Montgomery said. “If you attack him, he’s going to come back at you. ...

“He takes things personally. He competes out there. It’s not a bad thing, except there are times and circumstances.”

Montgomery wasn’t expecting a physical game against KU.

“I really wasn’t,” Montgomery said. “I think, obviously, both teams reacted to the other team. We went out and wanted to try to compete, then some stuff happened and there was reaction both ways. I didn’t expect that, but we were trying to compete.”

The Bears didn’t seem frustrated that the play turned chippy against the Jayhawks.

“Nah, it was fun. It was a great environment,” Sanders-Frison said. “We were waiting for this. We were excited about it.”

Comments

waywardJay 10 years, 11 months ago

I love that Montgomery pretends his boys are just reacting. Kansas, the offensive juggernaut that has had questionably weak post defense is the aggressor..... not the can't shoot, slow Goon squad who in the picture above appears to be a Cal player cheap shotting Releford.

Brian Conrad 10 years, 11 months ago

good thing for "git hair less" Robinson did not knock him out. was great stomping them in the dirt then singing the chant with hairless on the line. awww

yates33333 10 years, 11 months ago

What did they do with the Keegan article? It isn't in this posting.

d_prowess 10 years, 11 months ago

I don't know why you don't like Keegan calling the players immature, when Self said the exact same thing!

"We need to mature. We don’t have a mature team and we have known that from the beginning." Bill Self

WilburNether 10 years, 11 months ago

So did Bill Self "insult" the team when he said "We don't have a mature team?" Hmmm?

The fanbois here could use a large dose of maturity, as well.

The behavior of Marcus Morris and Brady Morningstar was just plain stupid.

Sam Brockert 10 years, 11 months ago

Throwing elbows on purpose means you need to grow the f up and start beating your opponent on the scoreboard...

Funhawk 10 years, 11 months ago

From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of CHIPPY =aggressively belligerent “a chippy hockey player”; also : marked by much fighting “a chippy game.”

Origin of CHIPPY: chip on one's shoulder . First Known Use: 1898

Chip was also a male name; e.g., "Chip" on My Three Sons. None of the Chips I have known have been chippy. Chip may also be the coach's secret nickname.

JacquesMerde 10 years, 11 months ago

Although I often agree with your views and sentiments, please do not use my name in conjunction with Keegan. Thank you, Jacques Merde

kufaninmo 10 years, 11 months ago

Did anyone else begin to HATE that Gutierrez guy or was it just me??

NebraskaJayhawk 10 years, 11 months ago

He reminds me of Clay "the carpenter" Guido. He'll be in the UFC someday, just wait.

IrishHawk 10 years, 11 months ago

Absolutely....he was very "punkish" at Allen Field House last year as well...my guess is our guys remembered him very well going in, and he did nothing but pile on with more aggressive (baiting) behavior.

This game reminded me of a KU-CU game back in January 2001 against the Harrison brothers....only guys (outside of anyone at MU) that I've ever HATED like that...until last night!

dynamitehawk 10 years, 11 months ago

Yes! Watching him is like watching Tom Jones do ... Pretty much anything. Weird and wrong.

dylans 10 years, 11 months ago

Not to mention the 2 times he threw punches at Robinson.

FairgroveJayhawk 10 years, 11 months ago

I don't think Gutierrez could do anything clean if he tried. You could cut his hair, scrub him with lava soap and put him in a suit. He'd still look dirty. Goes well with his lack of game.

Kyle Neuer 10 years, 11 months ago

He was certainly getting a bunch of "boo's" from the sizable KU contingent at the game last night.

wrwlumpy 10 years, 11 months ago

Maybe it was because the game was edging towards a bench clearing brawl, but I thought the broadcast by the P10 boys was the best we've seen this year. The replays showed everything we wanted to see except whatever it was that TRob did or said to make Guiterrez go ballistic. Marques knows his basketball and was definitley not a homer for the P10 audience. Nice to know that Jayhawks were louder than the Bears. How great to here the chant at midnight from the bay.

IrishHawk 10 years, 11 months ago

You had to have been drunk or watching a different telecast. They kept saying Markieff had been tossed (not Marcus.) They said "Lawrenceville" multiple times....were dogging on Markieff's 3 pt ability (he was 5 for 16 going into the game from 3...not great, but not awful)....they mentioned KSU's suspension of "Pullen and those other guys"....Johnson was an idiot and kept saying, "come on big boy, get it!" when things got chippy....they talked about what an incredible crowd it was - it was so quiet/partially empty you could hear the players half the time....and I had to go to the internet to keep up with fouls and scoring since Fox Sports stinks so much they never tell you. The only reason I didn't listen to the radio was because of the delay...we get stuck with these guys every time we play on the west coast, and to me they are downright putrid.....worst broadcast of the year - hate to say it but harder to watch than Knight.

Brett Clifton 10 years, 11 months ago

Some of my favorites from last night's awful broadcast:

  1. That's KU's first lead of the game (I think it was 11-8) even though KU was up 5-2 early on.
  2. They kept saying Releford for either of the twins.
  3. Nice bucket by Markieff Marcus.
  4. That's 5 fouls on Morningstar (um, no it's not).
  5. "If you do your job well, nobody notices." Obviously you didn't do it well, cause I noticed all of these awful mistakes I'm sure there were plenty more.

wrwlumpy 10 years, 11 months ago

Yeah, I remember Lawrenceville, and everyone confuses the twins unless you've watched them for three years. I was talking more about the video replays. However, the rafters cam that filmed most of the game was bothersome.

Cizur 10 years, 11 months ago

People typically dont confuse the twins for Releford. Which was done multiple times. Even the highlight film on this website shows Morris getting a bucket, and the announcer labeling him as Releford.

It was terrible to watch.

Kye Clark 10 years, 11 months ago

Agreed. Shouldn't be that hard (ahem, Bob Knight)

Joel Thomas 10 years, 11 months ago

The announcers did trip over themselves, especially Marques, but I can't remember supposedly unbiased third parties gush over a team like they did about KU. Not that I'm complaining.

ffletch 10 years, 11 months ago

At least knight knows his stuff. The player confusion was idiotic. They had a complete lack of feel for the game. Almost like the drunk MU fan at the bar just yelling at everything and not knowing what was going on. You all have been too kind on the Lawrenceville comments. But I won't be... KU is a powerhouse and has been for the most part since the inception of the game. A perennial top 5. Home of the inventor of the game. Naismith and Allen are buried there. 5 national titles. Well over a dozen final fours. Players all over the NBA for years. The jackwads calling that game were not knowledgable and were not prepared. If they do not know KU hoops then I question anything that the do profess to know. Was anyone actually calling the game? It was mostly color commentary. I found myself listening to it just to see what else they would screw up. Proof that pot smoking (cal hippie reference) makes people disconnected and disjointed. What an insult to hoops fans. It's a wonder they have jobs. But, I guess calling games after half the country has gone to bed is maybe one rung above unemployment.

Brian Conrad 10 years, 11 months ago

????? they were awful complete homers and very poor basketball knowledge

Dr. Robert s. Mosser 10 years, 11 months ago

Marquis Johnson was a great BB player and probably a pretty good guy. I have now listened to him through 3 games and he is the worst announcer currently on any channel. Fox occasionally does sports right but not with this pair of announcers. He of course was at UCLA which only allowed "homers" to officiate games at Pauley so he probably thinks that is the way it is supposed to be done.

Marcus Duncan 10 years, 11 months ago

Gutierrez was an instigator all night! He should have been tossed after throwing a punch at T-Rob at the bottom of the pile! He had to wait for the rest of his team to surround him before he acted like a fool trying to get at T-Rob... Boy would I have loved to see that!!! T-Rob would have swatted him away like a pesky little gnat. Cal was definitely trying to get under our skin last night. But in the end. . . another Jayhawk victory! ROCK CHALK, JAYHAWK!!!

Matt Bowers 10 years, 11 months ago

You are a 100% correct and he flopped on T-Rob's first tech. I thought it was funny when the commentators were talking about Jorge's cool and leadership because he is a father and he was the one player that set the tone for the entire game. Best example is when he came out of the game, Reed took control and things calmed down for both teams.

The coach said he wasn't expecting it and and it was all reactionary, that is garbage. That coach instructed his players to play hard and compete and when things didn't go their way, they got chippy...so did Marcus Morris!

Rock Chalk

Jeff Coffman 10 years, 11 months ago

Marcus definitely got what he deserved, the replay showed him elbowing the guy and when he didn't get a good shot on him, he went down in the post and really got him. Pretty blatant.

However, I watched the replay of the Robinson/Gutierrez shuffle, and Robinson shouldn't have gotten a technical. If you look at him, he is laying there the whole time, not swinging or anything. There was a late jump in by one of the Cal players and Gutierrez went off. He had to be restrained by two players. Their coach was in there, I thought that it was one sided.

RockChalkGuy 10 years, 11 months ago

I couldn't agree with you more!!! I watched it over and over and still can't figure out what T-Rob did to deserve a technical.

Also, what about the irreverent, brushing-aside-of-the-ref, by Sanders-Frison??? How in the world did that avoid a Technical call? The ref was struggling to restrain the guy, lost grip of him and he ran into the fray. Watch the replay. The video doesn't lie.

Jayhawk_Monger 10 years, 11 months ago

I agree, T-Rob is there on the floor and is getting mauled by a guy with a pony tail. What is he supposed to do? Just lay there and take it? Officiating last night was suspect.

Sam Brockert 10 years, 11 months ago

T-Rob got T'd up because when he got up he acted like he wanted to fight, you can't do that. If he had just walked away they wouldn't have called one on him.

Brandon Koch 10 years, 11 months ago

What about the other 5 guys that acted like they wanted a fight then? Where were their technicals? I disagree with your logic. I think the refs missed the call on that one.

swunruh 10 years, 11 months ago

wrwlumpy...While you may have enjoyed the Pac10 announcers..Bob Davis was at his very best on radio last night. Early in the broadcast, the TV guys made reference to "Lawrenceville" Kansas and we decided to turn up the radio and turn off the TV sound. Davis and Piper were really having fun! The halftime interview Bob Davis did with Mr. Booth, on his purchase of the Rules of Basketball, was outstanding.

OldJayhawk63 10 years, 11 months ago

I love Bob Davis and Chris Piper's game coverage. I always synch my radio to the muted TV and just relax and enjoy the game.

Studogg 10 years, 11 months ago

I grew up following KU on the radio with Bob and Max 'cause we didn't have cable. To this day, there is little I enjoy more than listenting to Bob Davis call a KU basketball game. I think Piper does a great job, too. Max is a legend, though. Still miss his voice from time to time.

SDSurferFan 10 years, 11 months ago

Brady and MMorris definitely deserved what they got. Brady should have just said something to the Cal player, but hitting the ball out of his hands warranted the call. Morris...wow. What instigated that? That was a brutal elbow.

With that said, Cal acted and played like punks. After the scuffle with TRob, the Cal players were on the bench high-5n and acting like a punch of punks at a high school party. Disappointing for Montgomery I am sure. Good experience for KU from a less talented team trying to get under their skin.

On another note....I wish Self would schedule more non-conf away games. Why does he not play a true road game until Xmas? The strategy should be on getting ready for March and a ton of games at AFH and Kansas City doesn't really prepare your team. Last nights game does.

kufankam 10 years, 11 months ago

couple of thoughts:

  1. marcus needs to be smarter.
  2. brady needs to be smarter.
  3. robinson simply needs to channel his aggression elsewhere.
  4. commentators were HUGE homers... mostly in the sense that they simply knew VERY LITTLE about our team or anything east of the Rocky's. Do your homework boys!!
  5. the refs SHOULD HAVE T'D jorge for continuing to push T-rob WELL AFTER the ball went in. they T up thomas and basically tell jorge his antics were okay. this was his second altercation early in the game. the refs let this game become what it was. i rarely comment on officials as i have done it before. the first (minor) incident with jorge and selby was a great oppurtunity to nip that stuff in the butt. either with the sebly, johnson/jorge thing or the trob/jorge situation, the officials just needed to bring ALL TEN players together and look them each in the eye and let them know "This crap stops RIGHT NOW". It is called preventative officiated and is preached adamantly at the high school level (let alone, major D-1 level).

Jack Wilson 10 years, 11 months ago

Last night's game gave some insights into what this team is about, what we can look forward to, and what we can be concerned about: 1. Tyshawn: This heads the list of concerns here. Second game with Selby, second game where he reverted to 2009-10 form. This was classic TT. Bad passes, careless with the ball, forced shots, charging call, etc. Two early threes he knows better than to take. Two wild and poor attempts at the rim were luckily followed by Kieff and TRob. Another resulted in zero. Again, it may be coincidence, but it appears that the minute Selby became part of this team, TT felt threatened by his presence and started forcing things (just like he did most of last season next to Sherron). However, he still built up some equity with his early season performances. I think he'll settle down. It is worth following. Because this is the single biggest threat to our title hopes, but it may be the single biggest hope. A word to TT .. you will never be the man by scoring. That's not you. But you can become the man, perhaps the most important player on this team, by focusing on creating scoring opportunities. You had five assists last night. It could have been 10. I would suggest to this young man that vs. TX-Arlington that he is prohibited from shooting except on a dead, by yourself layup (and only if you can't give it to someone else for the slam). Focus him on just getting assists. Challenge him. How many can you get? What's the KU record for assists in a game .. who knows .. but try to break it. 2. Reed: This guy played hard, earned every minute. His effort can't be overlooked because it gets him in position to score and grab boards. Getting this guy his 5-6 3 pt. shots a game is a priority. Perhaps the most impressive player on the floor last night. Theutus mentioned on another thread that Reed's his favorite player .. hard to argue with that. 3. Three guards: We got our answer for the start of the Selby era. Starting 5 next game will be TT, Selby, Reed, Marcus, and Kieff, unless Marcus gets the pine as result of the elbow. This team really has no true 3 other than Releford (with Little out). Brady is 3-lite, meaning he is more of a 2. Three pure guards, and two bigs will likely be the norm. This will create match-up problems when another team goes 6-6 on the wing. 4. Releford: Is playing way, way tentative offensively .. perhaps to ensure that he actually gets to play. Once he builds up some goodwill with Self, meaning he feels he won't get yanked immediately for a mistake, he'll loosen up. He did blow a layup or something last night and Self didn't pull him. Good sign. I thought he played terrific defense, and did a nice job in the post on a bigger guy. He passed up an open 3 he should have taken.

SDSurferFan 10 years, 11 months ago

Agree.

Tyshawn. The coaches will figure this one out and I think Tyshawn, as a junior, will adapt. He has been a solid player this season and I think he will be able to help. Completely agree that if he plays to his potential within the team he is the key to a long run.

Reed. Agree. He actually hit his first 3 3's, but one was right when a foul was called.

Releford. I do like the fact that Self kept him in the game. He played well. He is our garbage man.

TRob. Disagree. He is the wrecking ball and I would suspect that other teams dread to play against someone who is 'slightly' out of control. The little pony tail guy from Cal had a forearm to his throat. That is cause for retaliation. I think he acted like he should have. Guiterrez is lucky TRob didn't snap his neck.

Jack Wilson 10 years, 11 months ago

  1. Selby will start: The two game probationary period is over. I thought folks were saying he wasn't that great of a shooter? This guy is terrific. Coach Knight mentioned his form last game .. it is tremendous. And he is the best creator on the team. Exactly what you want from a top 10 recruit .. even if it is only for one season.
  2. Rotation: Last night was more like it, but obviously effected by Marcus' ejection. Someone observed on another thread that EJ could get some of TT's minutes if TT's play continues to deteriorate. If it deteriorates. Well, EJ has to create, too, when he's in there. EJ did a nice job of setting Reed up for a 3, but there were no drive and dish creations. We need TT to bounce back. And we need EJ to be active when he's in there.
  3. Withey: Does anyone think that last night's game was the biggest indictment of Withey's lack of progress to date? I kept waiting for him to pop in there, particularly after Marcus' ejection. Perhaps Self thought the game was way too physical for him. Don't know. But our 7 footer had 0 minutes, exactly one behind Juenemann.
  4. Brady: Ok, can't avoid this. His defense was atrocious, burned on easy cuts by his man to the basket twice. 15 minutes were too much last night, but believe me, I'm not complaining .. I'll take it. And Mr. Intangible lost his temper and got a T, though it was understandable. Did have a sweet feed to Kieff, but not much else. Again, better competition, lower production.
  5. Kieff: Just a great game. Hope he's back starting next game.
  6. TRob: Just a preference, but I'd like him to just be quiet and play for a bit. You aren't a star ... yet. Stupid elbow on Gutierrez. I had compared him to Collison on ability, but he needs to mature a bit, keep his mouth shut and focus on his game.
  7. Marcus: Clearly a bush-league elbow. I'm hoping he's not feeling the Selby pressure .. meaning, "I was the man .. am I still the man?" I would love to see some Selby/Marcus isolation on one side of the court (I know, it doesn't work as easily in the college game vs. NBA). But a few of these each game, or situationally, would be cool. Glad the elbow thing happened in this game. It will focus him. Sitting in the locker room has a way of doing that.
  8. Rough Game: We needed this type of game. First, to help create toughness and a "I got your back" mentality. Second, to see this stuff before the scrum that the NCAA tourney can be at times. And third, to demonstrate how not to react to the baiting, etc. Composure. Talk with your game.
  9. Jayhawks In Cal: Man, how nice was it to hear Gutierrez getting booed in his own house when he had the ball. I didn't figure it out for bit. Freaking amazing.

Merry Christmas to all in Jayhawk land .... and to all the regular posters here that have incredible passion for the Jayhawks. There is nothing better than being a Jayhawk. RCJH!

Brian Conrad 10 years, 11 months ago

completely agree!! and what is up Withey not even good for 2 minutes? know he is not physical , but wow not even couple minutes??? he needs to get tougher fast..

  1. Withey: Does anyone think that last night's game was the biggest indictment of Withey's lack of progress to date? I kept waiting for him to pop in there, particularly after Marcus' ejection. Perhaps Self thought the game was way too physical for him. Don't know. But our 7 footer had 0 minutes, exactly one behind Juenemann. point 7 hit the spot

IBRONNIEB 10 years, 11 months ago

My only response to this game is, after we lost our composure, and our leading scorer, and most of our lead, we never did panic, we just went back to work and rebuilt the lead. This is a team, and though sometimes not very mature, none the less very talented. Selby was huge last night. He is a player, best I've seen since Paul P. This team might just be able to hang another banner! RCJH

SDSurferFan 10 years, 11 months ago

-Selby. How high is the ceiling? This is the tip of the iceberg. Shooting lights out. Going to the hole with authority. Great passing. Hitting free throws. No reason that he doesn't start from here on out. Easy to see that Brady will suffer most in loss of minutes.

-TRob. Very impressive to see his progression from game to game. Loved the offensive rebound, dunk, and passion play.

-Tyshawn. Moderate right now, right? Seems to be making more mistakes. Confidence?

Brian Conrad 10 years, 11 months ago

worst part is I was so sure we had really good players.. we do have really good team.. but... when Selby is on floor he is different level. Marcus and Kief, play smart , teams will bait you . Reed , just unbeleivable need for this team... smooth and all heart. Releford great post denial and nice moves to the goal. Robison. all tough and fast , just make sure where you are going , slam is the shot for you! Tyshawn, you have the talent , do not try to prove it , let it flow. Mario would have been nice in this game ... punch Guiterez not the baseball team...

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

He is already the third best 2 guard in KU history.

Jo Jo is first and Kirk is second.

It will take at least the rest of this season of play to see if he is good enough to surpass those two, but right now, I would say he has a shot at being better than either one.

Selby is a great, great player.

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

ralster, you've totally got this right about Cal's players' disingenuousness. This is the stock answer for the media that has been written for all D1 players in the age of XTReme Muscle. We hear it again and again. It is sickeningly inauthentic, whether it comes from our opponents, or us. Duke of course is the worst at this. They actually pretend that they don't cheap shot.

JacquesMerde 10 years, 11 months ago

Self needs to talk to TT. For some damn reason he now feels like he must over perform. He was great until the USC game. Also Releford hasn't played up to his ability as demonstrated in the first seven or eight games. Of course, the competition has picked up, and he has played the four spot which he isn't big enough to play. I do worry still about the front line's ability to compete against some of the beefy players they will be facing.

kerbyd 10 years, 11 months ago

Did anyone else catch the comment by Johnson that "it was the classiest thing he had ever seen" or something like that? I guess the entire team came over before the game and chatted and shook his hand.

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

Thursday and How Self Is Playing the KU Fiddle Like a Stradivarius"

First, KU has a very good inside game, though it hasn't shown it since Selby arrived. Why? Because Self has to work Selby into the perimeter array of teammates and against a crappy Cal team he he was also trying to contrive a game for his team to have to go out and labor to win. Pre Selby, KU's inside game was basically generating 50-60% FGA accuracy. Self can turn that back on like a light switch any time he wants.

Second, Self is trying to forge a team identity, not just cohesion on the perimeter that includes Selby. To do that he has followed a classic strategy. First game, he just gives the game to Selby to let the teammates really see what he can do; that does three things:

a) it minimizes the resentment in teammates' minds, because they see this guy come out and walk on water, when they have been laboring all season to stay undefeated (this makes teammates realize just how much they have not been leaving on the floor; i.e., it makes guys like Taylor, Tyrel and Brady come out and bust their butts the next game to try to stay in the rotation); and

b) it clears the deck of looking backwards and so lays the ground work for throwing the whole team, Selby included, to the dogs (i.e., get badly mauled by a lesser opponent without a lick of help from Self to the point that they have to fight like mad for each other and for a win, thus forging a post Selby arrival team identity);

c) it generates game tapes ASAP of how good Selby is so opposing coaches have to begin scheming against Josh immediately, which in turn will make KU's already solid inside game become virtually back braking, when Self begins to start playing through the bigs again.

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

Next, against Cal he hilariously turns his own team into the Keystone cops with absolutely random substituting the entire first half. Guys are purposely played out of position. They are purposely played in combinations they have never played in before, except for a few times in practice. Guys normally pulled quickly for mistakes are left in purposely in order to make enough mistakes to keep things chaotic. Self does everything he can do, including withholding Brady, the stabilizing glue, from play almost the entire game. Part of the time he is running around shouting instructions like he is completely out of control, while other times he is sitting back leisurely wresting chin on doubled palm as if he could care less what is going on. The dead give away to all this was that his nervous tell did not show once in this game. He did not chew his finger nails on the bench and he did not stand up, turn away from the court and rub smooth the hair on the back of a reddened neck. When Self is actually nervous about the outcome of a game, as he was for a time against USC, because of how effective O'Neill's dense pack zone was, nails get shorter and he is doing the the talking to himself routine of "How many times to I have to tell these guys the same things" bridled fury on the sidelines. There was none of that last night. All the emotion was contrived and aimed at causing his own players some confusion and bewilderment at what their coach was doing.

But if you are not into gambler's tells, then think about some of the XTReme boneheading EJ did in the first half without getting pulled. No offense to EJ, but he was part of the plan.

But you could see the confusion on all the players faces about what Self was up to.

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

And another give away were the coaches faces. I never saw Dooley, but there were a bunch of shots of Manning and Townsend. Their faces were very telling. Townsend is clearly a soul mate of Self. Townsend is a coach and recruiter who understands how much appearance can become reality and how much appearance can be used to reshape persons thinking. Townsend, like Self, appears the kind of guy who takes a certain amount of pleasure, perhaps borderline sadistic, in watching players squirm until they come around to a coaches way of thinking. Self surely does. Coach Townsend was having a ball playing the game of confusing the KU players with Self. He like the charade as much as he likes sharp threads. He and Self both like sharp threads and perfect coiffs, even though Self is a tad more understated.

But now did you watch Danny Manning? Manning is a straight shooter by nature. A mountain of a man who has always prevailed with size, talent, character and fierce competitiveness. He has always won by playing to his strengths. And playing for Larry Brown taught him just how sadistic and manipulative coaches that want their way can be. He knows all about what Self was doing, not just because Self probably mapped the plan meticulously, but because he lived through it with LB and it reputedly left some bad blood between them, and it probably left, to this day, some bad taste in Danny's mouth for this kind of manipulation of players.

Danny likes to be treated like a man and he likes to treat others like a man.

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

So do Self and Townsend, but Self and Townsend did not have all the talent that Danny had, so they always had to find the unfair advantage, the manipulative edge. They are comfortable with jerking players the way Self was jerking the players last night.

Danny? He was doing what he was supposed to do, what Self asked, but his body language was clearly saying, he did not like it. And man was he relieved when it was over, so he could get back to practice and get back to teaching some real basketball to some real big men, who could maybe push their inside scoring percentages maybe a couple percentage points higher, with some work.

Still, Danny knows you've got to do some of what Self was putting the team through. And I have no doubt that Danny Manning is learning every trick in the trade about how to do it, so that he will know how to do it well, should he ever decide to take the step up to head coaching somewhere.

And Self is probably even playing Danny Manning a little, because he probably knows Danny isn't comfortable with the charades of coaching.

Everyone's gotta get better, even Danny.

The coaching clinic continues.

Heck, my favorite moment came when Brady got the T for slapping the ball and Self walked up to him and apparently told him to go to the end of the bench because he was through for the night, and then Self brought him back in a couple of seconds when there was no need whatsoever to bring him back.

Self was creating some controlled chaos for his team. He did this a number of games last season, when last season's terrific, mature team was polarized in to camps and did not have good enough opponents to really scare the hell out of it without some assistance from their own coach. He jerked on KU's team last season from the moment Self let Xavier run up some numbers against Temple, pretty much constantly until mid February.

This years team is not nearly so mature, so Self is not fighting the kind of staleness and polarization he was fighting last season, but he has a young team here that is so deep and talented that he has to create some challenges for them just so they can learn how much fight you need in the dog to really go out and play at a high level when game intensity steps up to conference temperature.

That Cal game was blooding the dog for the hunt.

I will never be able to prove either of the following remarks, but will go to my death bed believing them.

Self told Marcus to get thrown out of the game.

Montgomery roughed KU up as a professional curtesy from one top coach to another to help Self get his very good team ready for what promises to be the most violent March Madness in the history of college basketball.

Andy Tweedy 10 years, 11 months ago

Self told Marcus to get thrown out of the game? Did you watch Hoosiers last night?

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

It was about that obvious and silly melodramatic, wasn't it?

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

Post Script:

I have to add that that elbow of Marcus' was absolutely the weakest elbow ever thrown in Division One college basketball. That no talent player he threw the 'bow fell away from it. It seemed obvious to me that Marcus heart wasn't in the cheap shot. It looked like he didn't even really know how to cheap shot an opponent. If you watch Duke, you can see that Coach Consonants coaches his players how and when to cheap shot, so they don't get caught, or so it really does hurt an opponent. Marcus? He looked like an acolyte at the Episcopalian Church being asked by the pastor to throw a 'bow at the choir conductor. His hear just was not in it. And I can guaran-dang-ty that Danny Manning never taught anyone to cheap shot like that. A trade mark of KU big men since Manning began coaching them has been the incredible subtlety and deftness by which they perform the borderline dirty tricks that are a part of any competent big man's tool kit. Could be way, way, way, off on this, but when guys throw 'bows out in the open in the paint in transition for all to see, and when the receiver of the 'bow doesn't so much as develop even a tiny goose egg, or bruise, or walk to the line wincing in some serious pain from a blow to the face, well, then this was in my book a significant case of Elbow-lite.

SDSurferFan 10 years, 11 months ago

Extremely interesting insight senor jaybate. This is the type of stuff I really wish was true, maybe it is.

Do you really think Selby is who you think he is? He's definitely one of the most exciting players I've seen at KU (yes its only 2 games), but I CANNOT wait till the next game. Swagger, the kid has it, and it doesn't look contrived.
Chances of him staying beyond this year? I didn't feel this way at all with Henry or Rush their first (or only) year at KU. Anyone you think carried and fulfilled this type of early hype so early in their career?

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

Wilt.

Danny though to a much lesser degree than Wilt, because he was fitting in with a very fine bunch.

No guards.

Sherron was close. He was electric that first year and people forget it was a real coup for Self to land him, after he seemed bound for the Illini, when Self was there.

If the pros don't take this guy now, then I will be amazed, but then I was amazed they drug their feet on Sherron. I just don't know the pros that well.

Selby has only one mark against him so far. Turn overs. But that's a big one. More about that in a post below.

okiedave 10 years, 11 months ago

PAC 10 officials do not have the best reputation for unbiased play and review judgment. This is why I was worried about this game. I am not surprised they missed the punches thrown by Gutierrez while he had his forearm pressing Robinson's neck. Oklahoma had the infamous horrendous result against Oregon when the PAC officials missed the the obvious early touching of an Oregon on-side kick and determined that an Oregon player recovered the ball in the pile when in fact the replay showed the ball squirting out of the scramble for the pile and an Oklahoma player recovering it 10 yards away from the pile. Oregon got a short field and a touchdown to win the game. As I recall it was so blatant the commentators could hardly restrain themselves. OU threatened to sue the PAC 10 and the PAC 10 issued an apology but kept the win.

PAC 10 officiating can be scary for visitors.

didjabuti 10 years, 11 months ago

I do not know who officiated the game. I was not able to watch. I do know that it is standard procedure for the visiting team to bring officials from their conference. It kind of balances out the home court advantage a little. Maybe I'm wrong, but unless I see something saying who officiated the game and that they work in the PAC 10 conference, I can't just assume we got screwed over by the PAC 10. Anybody have proof? I would be interested to see.

Mmace22 10 years, 11 months ago

The Jayhawks played better last night. I knew Josh was going to be good, but not this good. His outside shot is looking sweet. Just imagine, If we didnt turn the ball over so much we would dominate a lot more games. Get ahead and stay there. Cal was a punk team, and we fell into their game. Marcus' technical was not smart, but we played pretty good without him out there. I didnt understand Robinson' technical either, i thought that long haired goof should have been the only one, swinging at everyone? And Brady's was a little silly, but I dont blame him one bit. Tyshawn needs to step up, and not take such silly shots, just play your game. Rock Chalk!

Greg Lux 10 years, 11 months ago

I will keep it short .. T-Rob did NOT deserve the Tech Foul call. I know the officials wanted to try and get control of the game but he did nothing to deserve that call except hold onto the ball ( I wish he had call a Time Out ).

Rock Chalk

dynamitehawk 10 years, 11 months ago

George Gutierrez is a man skank. Probably was sporting a porn stache at 13. He's also a little stupid, too ... maybe retarded. And definitely gay. I've been trying to understand why this man skank would want to pick a fight with the baddest MF'er on the court. I remembered this retarded kid in elementary school who would run around and punch girls he liked... Just like George did to TRob. So stop making fun. He can't help it.

Bear86 10 years, 11 months ago

Relax people! It's not the first time there has been altercations in games that have gotten physical. It happens at every level. Cal wanted to compete and KU didn't back down. MM and Guiterez both deserved to get kicked out of the game. It was good to see the teams shake hands after the game and basically said it was physical affair but were over it so let's move on. Cal fans have class (unlike some other team's arena's I've attended) & Montgomery has always been a class coach. It was great seeing all the Jayhawk fans last night. Our presence was felt. Thanks to Tryrel Reed (MVP of the game) for saluting the fans after the game. Rock Chalk!! F-Texas!!

rges 10 years, 11 months ago

I dont know about a lot of people but i like to see some physical play and some fight out of the guys. I want to see a chip on this teams shoulder! I think this is just going to show coaches that are scouting KU that if you want to play this team physical thinking you are going to get them off of their game plans it isnt going to happen! I love the physical play but not that elbow throw by Marcus; he is way too good of an athlete basketball player and overall person the last few yeas to start doing that. He doesn't deserve that reputation and either does KU basketball. I am sure HCBS has a fun day planned for him first day back at practice. The team responded GREAT though when he was out of the game. Tyrel stepped up huge, Selby is looking better than advertised, from what I was reading on rivals and ESPN he was more of a slasher first who could shoot if necessary it is looking the opposite way to me thus far but i am loving his game. I can't say enough about Kieff and Tyrel leading this team though last night great game. Well coached on both sides keeping that game physical and not dirty!

stealindealin 10 years, 11 months ago

My two cents: the "physical" (dirty) play of Cal last night was a pre meditated move on their coaches part. Now I don't know Mongomery and he seems like an alright guy and all, but my guess is that he knew from the jump that he was severely outmanned. Self has even questioned his teams toughness both this year and years past. I think he (Monty) had an assumption that his kids could just punch KU around and they might wither, he probably thought that was his only chance to win and it worked for a few minutes. Therefore I have to believe that when you have a goon like Gutierrez you darn well know why you play him, to irritate and harass the opposing teams top players. He's not really a scoring threat. I watched Cal play many times last year and what he did last night is par for the course for him. I was watching the game early on and he was talking much s--- and shoving two hands in the low back, elbows, forearms, etc. as were many of Cal's players, and in typical PAC 10 country fashion, the refs looked the other way. The refs let this get out of hand from the beginning. Was Marcus' reaction okay, mature, etc? Probably not, but I will say this, it is the equivalent of a beaning in baseball (which I've never been a fan of, yet understand the purpose). Marcus at one point told the ref "he's on my back all night" I heard it plain as day on the telecast and the ref just shook his head. The dude got what he deserved. Cal played what I like to call "sneaky dirty" last night, meaning what they were doing wasn't glaring, but if you were looking for it, it was clearly outside the rules. KU just got caught because they retaliated in obvious ways. I for one enjoyed this game and believe that our team will actually grow quite a bit from it. A spirited win in a KU- against- the world- environment, I'll take it anytime.

didjabuti 10 years, 11 months ago

I posted about it in a reply earlier, but I went ahead and did the research. 2 of the 3 officials were from the BIG 12. I'm not saying the officiating wasn't bad. But you can't just say 'we were in PAC 10 Country and got screwed by PAC 10 officials'. We got screwed by Big 12 officials.

okiedave 10 years, 11 months ago

didjabuti - thanks for doing the research. However, I try to never let the facts stand in the way of a favorable theory.

KU_FanSince75 10 years, 11 months ago

Coach Mike Montgomery talking about Jorge Gutierrez: "Gotta love Jorge. He's the greatest. He's the best, but he's a stubborn son of a gun. If you attack him, he's going to come back to you. . . . . "

Uh, who attacked who, Mike? Pony tail boy threw the punch at T-Rob! You need to run his a$$ to the Yucatan and back and send a message. Speaking of stubborn, I believe the officials were stubborn to the fact that they saw a punch on the monitor thrown by you and eject you out of the game. There's my two pesos worth. Best of luck to you if keep pulling that crap.

David Howell 10 years, 11 months ago

I agree with a lot said above, especially HighEliteMajor .........

Sad thing is we are becoming predictable and teams are going to know what to do to push our buttons. They know we will never play a zone and driving to the bucket at will is becoming a little embarassing. However, I did see more help last night on drives to the bucket other then when Gutierrez continued to penetrate. Leave it to the Hawks to make an average guard look like a superhero .........

As for the aggression, well at least we had spunk. However, we continue to fail in the ability to use our brains on the court. You can't continue to play the game like you are on the playground or off campus taking on the football team.

As long as we have Selby and Reed scoring and one of the Morris twins is on the court, we should usually be okay. But after last night I have to agree on Withey. Pretty telling that his butt never stepped on the court except during timeouts. He might as well take his place at the far end of the bench and or hang with Hudy and lift weights during the game .............

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

"Talkin' Josh Selby's TOs"

I have praised Selby to the Van Allen Radiation Belts, but now its time to bring out the scalpel briefly.

Josh has committed 7 seven TOs in his first two games...and he ain't playin' point guard.

That is .114 TO/min.

Tyshawn, recently the king of TOs, is at .123 TO/min.

This means Josh Selby turns it over at the 2 almost as often as Tyshawn does at the PG.

This means Josh Selby's TO rate would spike out through the roof, if Self shifted him to PG.

Now do you see why Self has been saying Josh is a 2 guard?

Its still early, but Josh appears to have a dread condition the Center for Basketball Disease Control (CBDC) calls JWD aka John Wall Disease.

It is a disease that often afflicts exceptionally talented freshman guards that are capable of playing at a faster pace than most other mortals, and who's brains are not yet able to modulate their play much below light speed.

Removing tongue from cheek, it could be that Self has Selby playing Tyshawn's old 2 spot precisely because Self knows Josh not only provides a lot of juice to a team, but perhaps he also provides a lot of oops to a team.

If Selby's present TO rate were indicative of what his season long performance were to be in this category, Self and KU would be in a real tough spot.

Put another way, Tyshawn turns it over a lot at the point, but not nearly as much as Selby probably would.

If Josh the Ripper cannot get his JWD treated and cured, or at least managed to a tolerable level, KU is looking at having The Oops Twins for guards. SCARY!

Okie Ball has never been played this way before.

Sherron and Tyshawn were veritable ball protection wizards compared with Tyshawn and Selby.

Russell Robinson and Mario Chalmers seem like ball protection gods from Mt. Olympus in comparison to Tyshawn and Selby, if Tyshawn and Selby keep this up.

A lot of persons are talking about Selby taking over for Tyshawn, if Tyshawn keeps having troubles of the kind he has been having the last two games.

Whoa, Nellie!

For the foreseeable future, Selby is apt to throw it away even more that Tyshawn.

What can Self do?

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

He really only seems to have two choices.

Choice A: Self can increase EJ's minutes. EJ has very quietly amassed a respectable .05 TO/minute stat that means he is turning it over a whole lot less than either Tyshawn, or Selby. But EJ's number may be a bit deceptive. Most of his minutes at the point came early against cupcakes. Self has cut his minutes quite a bit against the Pac Ten Schools and EJ's best performance came at the 3, against Memphis, not at the point. Anecdotally speaking, EJ still seems to make enough bone head plays in floor game choices that Self must still be uncomfortable with him, despite EJ's admirable TO rate per minute.

Choice B: Self turns the point over to Tyrel Reed. Reed has been handling the ball a great deal down the stretches of games, because he is such a fine FT shooter. Because his lateral quickness is now approaching his vaunted straight ahead speed, he is looking quite capable of playing the point pretty flawlessly for short periods. In 301 minutes, second most on the team behind Taylor's 308, Tyrel has only 9 TOs; that is a rate of .03 TOs/min.

If I were Self, I would first cut Tyshawns minutes by about 3 against the next two cupcakes and try EJ at the point with the first team and see if EJ can hold down his TOs/min and also reduce his bone head plays. At the same time, I would be praising and pumping up Tyshawn that the job is still his.

If EJ cannot cut it against the first two cupcakes, then I think you give Josh a half to run the team against the third cupcake and see if he can lower his TOs against an easier opponent enough to give you some confidence in giving him a go at the point in the first conference game.

But if Selby cannot bring his TOs into line, then this situation defaults to Tyrel at the point guard with Tyshawn and Josh on the wings. This would put incredible speed on that wings and keep Tyrel's and Josh's trey guns in the game, too.

It is a very weird situation to imagine, but I did imagine it last summer a number of times in speculation.

Tyrel is a guy who can get the ball down the floor for you and get it into the half court set almost every time down the floor. And the beauty of Tyrel at the point would be that his first pass, either to Tyshawn, or to Josh, would instantly threaten an offense with incredibly quickness and speed and get to the rim threat.

jaybate 10 years, 11 months ago

If you are John Calipari, you let Josh run his TO's through the roof and play, because you are ball screening him 30 feet from the basket and he is so awesome off the bounce that his prolific scoring off sets the TOs, until you can get him calmed down, and convinced to play through your bigs, as Cal did with Wall down the stretch.

But in Okie Ball, I just don't see how you can afford a PG turning it over like Selby appears on track to do, if he were to take over.

And it is kind of crazy to have him take over, and toss it away at a rapid rate, when you've got Tyrel who can get it up the floor and into play every time, and the guy he'll put it in play to is Josh, anyway.

And the really cool thing about this idea is that EJ can sub Tyrel and then all the speed freaks that have been wet dreaming about seeing Tyshawn, EJ and Selby on the floor simultaneously, get their wet dream to come true, and in a controlled way.

With Tyrel mistake free at the point, we alternate playing through the bigs and letting Josh and Tyshawn shake and bake to the rim.

Then 5-8 minutes in with a 10-15 point lead, EJ comes in and he and Tyshawn and Josh turn on the after burners for 3-5 minutes and take a blow. Brady and Travis rest Tyshawn and Josh and play 7 more minutes with EJ, then Tyrel, Josh and Tyshawn finish out the half the way the game started.

There's a place and a pace for everyone, and everyone is in the right pace and place.

Anytime teams try to put a lot of full court pressure on Tyrel, he can always pass to a slicing Josh, or Tyshawn, and the zone is broken.

I know the thought of Tyrel being KU's starting PG will send several posters into petite mal seizures, and it won't happen if Josh, or Tyshawn, can get their TOs under control, but if they cannot, it really seems a workable way to go.

Rodney Stice 10 years, 11 months ago

I cant wait for the next game. Rock Chalk Jayhawk

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