Originally published December 13, 2010 at 06:13p.m., updated December 14, 2010 at 12:00a.m.

Zack Stoudt chooses Ole Miss

Juco QB passes on Jayhawks


Zack Stoudt, the No. 2-ranked junior-college quarterback in the country, will not be coming to Kansas University.

Stoudt, one of the top priorities on the KU coaching staff’s recruiting board, orally committed to Mississippi on Monday night, marking a sour end to weeks of anticipation and effort by the Jayhawks.

KU was one of seven schools that extended a scholarship offer to Stoudt, a 6-foot-5, 235-pound, pro-style quarterback from Iowa Western Community College in Council Bluffs, Iowa.

In October, KU coach Turner Gill drove to Iowa to watch Stoudt play. Stoudt returned the favor by making a visit to Lawrence the weekend of Nov. 20 for the Jayhawks’ game against Oklahoma State. At the time, all signs seemed to indicate that Stoudt would commit to KU.

“Right now, Kansas is my favorite,” Stoudt said on Nov. 23. “Those other schools are going to have to beat them out.”

One did, and, now, KU is left scrambling. It appears that Mississippi’s conference and history of producing NFL-caliber quarterbacks was a big pull for the Ohio native.

“It came down to the opportunity to play in the SEC,” Stoudt told Neal McCready of “On top of that, the opportunity to play at Ole Miss is very good. Coach (Houston) Nutt is a great guy, and I really liked (co-offensive coordinator/quarterbacks) coach (Dave) Rader. They need a guy to come in, and the spot is wide-open.”

Stoudt also told McCready that informing the KU coaches of his decision was tough.

“They are a great group of guys,” he said. “Coach (Chuck) Long was as good a guy as I’ve ever been around. He probably would’ve been a great coach for me.”

Losing out on Stoudt is a big blow for the Jayhawks, who will enter the spring with just two experienced quarterbacks, Jordan Webb and Quinn Mecham, on the roster.

Webb was the Jayhawks’ leading passer this year as a red-shirt freshman, but his stats and sporadic play overall were underwhelming. He finished 121-of-214 (56.5 percent) for 1,195 yards, with seven touchdowns and eight interceptions. Webb also added 84 yards rushing in nine games, including seven starts.

Mecham, in four starts, had a higher completion percentage than Webb (61-of-102, 59.8 percent) and threw for 554 yards and four TDs, with five interceptions.

Other existing options for the Jayhawks in 2011 include a pair of former quarterbacks now listed as wide receivers.

Kale Pick, the junior-to-be who was KU’s opening day starter at quarterback in 2010, and Christian Matthews, a highly touted dual-threat QB out of high school, also have experience at the position. But it’s highly unlikely that either player would return to quarterback next season. Late last month, Gill said Pick was “on board at receiver, full-throttle, ready to go.” And Matthews hasn’t taken many meaningful snaps at QB throughout his KU career.

Help is on the way, but that help won’t arrive until August and will come in the form of true freshman Michael Cummings, a 6-foot, 196-pound dual-threat quarterback from Killeen, Texas, who missed the second half of his senior season because of a knee injury and still is on crutches. Cummings shapes up as a likely red-shirt candidate.

Cummings committed to Kansas in June and is expected to sign in February. He said the chance to play for Gill and Long, KU’s offensive coordinator, was too good of an opportunity to pass up.

“Playing for them will be the best of worlds,” Cummings told Rivals in June. “They were both great quarterbacks. Coach Gill was a mobile quarterback and coach Long was more of a pocket-passer. So they will be great coaches that can help me a lot. I spent a lot of time around them. Coach Gill is a man who knows what he wants to do with his program. He wanted me to be a part of it.”


Kevin Studer 7 years, 6 months ago

Is this the part where I join all the other "complainers" by saying that this was a massive recruiting failure? This was Gill's first opportunity to land a difference-maker in recruiting. I, like many, remain unimpressed.

Dirk Medema 7 years, 6 months ago

Zach is still just a 3. Not nearly as significant as the 4 RB's we've landed.

William James 7 years, 6 months ago

Todd Reesing was just a 3. Jacques Crawford was a 4 RB. Any questions?

Sam Brockert 7 years, 6 months ago

a 3 *, but I believe that was his ranking coming out of HIgh School, I don't think they give new star rankings to juco players.

Bill Kackley 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm not so sure he was a difference maker. His final game as a JUCO didn't impress me.

hawk316 7 years, 6 months ago

No "massive recruiting failure" here. We were one of two finalists. It happens. You don't get every recruit you go after.

Gill is bringing in talent. Indeed, Cummings may turn out to be a very good one. And I liked what he had to say..."the chance to play for Gill and Long, KU’s offensive coordinator, was too good of an opportunity to pass up."

In the short term, however, let's hope that our current qb's continue to develop. Webb, after all, will only be a sophomore.

minipman 7 years, 6 months ago

welp.. lets prepare ourselves for a repeat of this year, next year.. they need to try christian mathews at qb.. thats what he played in high school.. or mayb just have open try- outs to the entire campus.. mayb there is one kid out of 20 thousand that can possibly throw a football because webb and mecham sure cant.

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

Webb can throw a football. He can really put some smoke on it too. He just can't hit a Wideout.

Jayhawk1116 7 years, 6 months ago

Bad, bad news. Gill's (and his staff) reputation as a recruiter just took a big hit. When Pinkel was hired at Mizzou he told the fans he'd always have a quarterback, and he has. We have yet to get an elite college quarterback. Reesing doesn't really count IMO. Nobody thought he would amount to anything. This hurts. I hope all you guys singin' the praises of Cummings are right...

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

One of our QBs needs to step up, and I don't care who it is. For all I care, play with both Webb and Mecham in at the same time.

bigtex 7 years, 6 months ago

I really question Long's ability as a OC and QB coach. Ya he had some success at OU but what OC wouldn't have when you can recruit an O-line like they had. Stoops had a great defense to give the offense a short feild to work with in most games.Long and Gill killed our startng Qb with the quick chain jerk. I can see why Stoudt didn't sign, Qbs see how other Qbs are handled Long was terrible. KU was awful in the 3rd quarter all year, no half time adjustments.. Coach Warinner from Mangino's staff took a no name short Qb with an average arm to become an icon at KU thats coaching. Don't you think it is odd that Gill opens every press conference and tells everybody how good of coaches they are, I would wather see it than talk it !!!

Jonathan Allison 7 years, 6 months ago

everyone who is saying that this is a recruiting failure and a reputation killer needs to learn a less from the head basketball coach. Just because a shot went in doesn't mean that it was a good shot. And just because an opposing players shot didn't go in doesn't mean that you played good defense.

Gill may have recruited this QB perfectly and just not landed him because he wanted to be in the SEC (or for whatever other reason). No fault of Coach Gill's. Just like when Bill Self didn't get Harrison Barnes.

khummel60 7 years, 6 months ago

Very bad news indeed. It's not that Stoudt was a guaranteed winner, but he at least gave us some hope for a different result. I have little confidence that we'll see substantially different results next year with our existing QB's (hope they prove me wrong). Difficult to get amped up about a team that has no proven QB.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

hey 100

houston nutt 1 turner gill 0




100 7 years, 6 months ago

We lost a big one today.

You sound like you're pretty sad.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

haha, it's all love! one of us is going to be REALLY WRONG at the end of gills tenure

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

It would have helped had it been a halfway clean coaching change.

Perkins probably wanted a more charismatic coach for quite a while for fundraising purposes, but Mangino had been winning - and people pay to support winning teams.

By following up an Orange Bowl win to conclude the 2007 season with a season where we lost our games against the South and Nebraska, Perkins probably would have fired Mangino after the 2008 season.

The economy (courtesy of the recession), an Insight Bowl win which brought the record to 8-5, and a win over Mizzou probably combined to save Mangino at the time.

However, when our season spun out of control in 2009, Perkins was finally able to justify firing Mangino. The accusations were icing on the cake and were necessary in order to lower the cost of Mangino's buyout.

The 2011 season will give us a better idea of what Gill can actually do as a coach at this level. Gill needs to raise the floor of the program, but he also needs to get donors donating again - regardless of the product on the field.

LAJayhawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Seriously man. At least the other haters deep down hope they are wrong. They want the best for KU. Clearly, you only want to be proven anonymously correct. You have proven yourself to be 100% troll.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

"Mom! Meatloaf!!!" oh sorry, actually I do hope we do well but when it's completely obvious what a joke this staff yet we're constantly feed that we are on the up and up. Besides I've stopped donating (and yes it was enough to be noticed) canceled my tickets (which have sat empty since I moved a couple of years ago) so this is the only place left to vent.

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

I would also like to passive-aggressively post that I have more money than you all...

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

No, not at all! I'm just tired of people saying I'm not a fan when I'm one of a few that follow everything our football team does.

Marcia Parsons 7 years, 6 months ago

Do you follow "everything the team does" to support, or just to criticize. I keep feeling that if it should turn out that we have a successful year next year, you will be terribly disappointed.

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

I concur. Sounds like you would rahte rbe right than see Kansas Win..... Shameful Mulaza.

William James 7 years, 6 months ago

"The value of Reesing...was overinflated."

holtzymal 7 years, 6 months ago

In the SEC, if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'. Ole Miss may have sweetened the pot for Mr. Stoudt.

stravinsky 7 years, 6 months ago

REALLY? You think they have to bribe a juco QB whose only other offer is from Kansas? I mean, I love KU, but seriously, have a slight amount of realism. Stoudt /= Cam

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

No, just guarantee that he will start rather than compete to start.

KGphoto 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm sure the kid was aware of our QB issues/lack of competition. He was gonna start.

dtownhawkfan 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm sure the coeds there were pretty influential.

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm sorry if Gill doesn't win 6 games next year he has to go.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

he'll not even win six games in his career. and that's even with him fullfilling the entire length of the contract

focojayhawk 7 years, 6 months ago

As much as i would like things to go well for this team and the coaching staff, after looking at the schedule it will be a miracle if they win 6 next year. With that said, let's say they do get rid of Gill, and then obviously hire another coach. Will this mean they will be paying 3 coaches at the same time? I don't know how it works exactly but I am assuming Mangino will get his spread out over the next few years, Gill is under a 5 year contract, then of course KU would be paying the new coach. I better quit making fun of the Denver Broncos real fast! Also, is Lew's millions he gets to retire all coming at once or is that over the next few years also?? I am sure someone is going to correct me on all of this as I don't know all the facts, but I can't be that far off.

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

That's a pretty bold statement since he's already halfway there. After Gill finishes the season with 3 wins next year, I'll be there when we're not playing in a bowl game to say "I told you so..."

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago


Which 3 teams do you think we beat with that schedule.

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

McNeese St., NIU and something crazy that none of us can predict where we rally from being down 45 points at the half...

ltownatrain 7 years, 6 months ago

Um what on earth makes you think we will beat NIU next year. Granted KU may be better next year but unless NIU falls off the face of the planet they will likely beat KU if things don't improve here. NIU was 10-3 this last season and for the most part rolled over half the teams they played. While I wold hope KU can beat them I wouldn't start saying they will just yet until we see them play next year with Gills first recruiting class. In otherwords save win predictions until we have something to base them off of.

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

Obviously you're seeing the name "Northern Illinois" and assuming we're going to win. If you've followed football closely enough, you'd probably predict KU to lose to NIU by 3 possessions next year.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

Funny. I think we will get 2 wins. That ndsu game really might come back to bite us.

Christopher Hauser 7 years, 6 months ago

Six games may be tough to come by with the schedule we have next year.

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

Let us know when we CAN blame Gill.

In the mean time, who should we be blaming?

Justin Millsap 7 years, 6 months ago

Blame the Booth family for spending 4+ million on the original basketball rules. Clearly, that money could have been better spent on beemers for recruits...

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

The Booth family can do whatever they want with their money. They owe the school nothing, yet give so much.

I hope you were kidding.

Kevin Studer 7 years, 6 months ago

Why are all the hard-liners so against the rest of us blaming the head coach for a disappointing football team? This awful team is Mangino's fault, according to many here. After Gill is gone and replaced, will they be saying the failures of the next regime are Gill's fault?

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Depends on the recruiting.

It also depends on whether Gill is given enough time to do what he was hired to do. (Admittedly, a large part of that is to stack the program with talent via recruiting.)

KSseahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

We shouldn't blame TGill...he just didn't seal the deal. What we can blame TGill for is the team being underprepared last season.

He's got an off-season to bring in 'real talent', but frankly, I think what he had was sufficient to get better results than he actually got. Just sayin...

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

I would argue that Nevada and Boise have much more talent than Kansas, not similar...

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Bad luck. Apparently he likes being under Nutt. Have fun playing in the SEC, Stoudt.

KU_FanSince75 7 years, 6 months ago

This is quite the announcement and a disappointing end for the Jayhawks. Hope this is not habit forming for Coach Gill and his staff. Remember, like I said before, the clock is ticking and the pressure is on.

MST3K 7 years, 6 months ago

This hurts. This might of been Gill's most important recruit yet. I hope it's not the difference between whether or not he's still here in three years.

DarthJayhawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Disappointing. I kept checking in all day to see if he had made his decision, but deep down I knew he was going to pick ole miss. If he thinks he has any pro potential, going to an SEC school is probably a better bet for him. As long as gill is here,anyway.

100 7 years, 6 months ago

In this day of John Calipari tactics, I guess it's not over yet...

He hasn't signed anything, at least not yet...

If you're having second thoughts, come on over to Lawrence, Zack Stoudt, Ole Miss doesn't have a line to protect you against SEC defense!!!!!!!

Our guys will be huge!!!!!!!!!

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Let's not hope for a calipari type steal..... I hope the Kid does good thigns at Ole Miss.... We just have to find something to make do in the meantime.

100 7 years, 6 months ago

Good point. I don't want a Calipari deal.

What I really want is for him to simply have a change of heart tonight.

He's a good kid I'll root for him no matter where he goes.

(but if he really wants a good set to prepare for the NFL he chose the wrong strategy in my humble opinion).

We will have such a massive line, he could've just been back there all day throwing over the top.

In the end you're right. Go Stoudt.

minnhawk84 7 years, 6 months ago

Getting tired of hearing about how great next year's offensive line is going to be -- it takes several years to develop the talent, strength, and experience to be a dominant lineman in a major conference. Big freshmen will be very nice, but don't expect them to be that good. Most need at least two years to develop (plus a redshirt year) into pancake players.

Mike Nicco 7 years, 6 months ago

Come on 100. If these true freshman linemen play next year, we really are in big trouble. If Coach Turner is going to build a dynasty, it's not by starting true freshmen on your o-line. These guys will need to will need 2-3 years before they are really ready.

Mike Nicco 7 years, 6 months ago

Stoudt has 2-3 years of college. He is not going to a school with an o-line like we had last season or one made of true freshman. Hopefully, they will progress next year and show enough potential for Coach Gill's staff to make a run at another decent q-back.

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

Clearly you've never played EA Sports' NCAA Football...

Clarence Glasse 7 years, 6 months ago

I don't know---this particular quarterback MUST be the ONLY up-side player at the position anywhere! Or could it be that there are others, maybe better ones, that KU will have an opportunity to get signed? ------- Just askin'.

prairie_rattler 7 years, 6 months ago

Seriously... Stoudt wasn't the anwer anyway. Gill's done a wonderful job recruiting the base... I have no doubt he and the other coaches will develop a highly servicable quarterback in the near future.

kranny 7 years, 6 months ago

Stoudt's only listed as a 2 star and he wasn't being chased by overly impressive schools. His brother is actually listed in the top 100 on scout and he isn't. Yea I know, rankings don't mean anything but just sayin'. Also listed as not being very mobile which gets you hurt in the college game. Hopefully Cummings gets his knee back and there are a few other QBs left.

Kevin Studer 7 years, 6 months ago

Stoudt's mediocrity only highlights the fact that Gill can't seem to land even medium talent. Seriously, earlier today, people were getting excited about a juco walk-on O-lineman. My, how the standards are low!

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

1) He would have been at KU in Spring. I'm not sure that many recruits - even juco recruits - would be available for spring practice.

2) You need to look at the recruits we are accustom to getting at each spot. We got lucky with Reesing, mainly because other programs wouldn't look at him courtesy of his height (or lack thereof for a qb). Other than that, we have consistently had 2- or 3-star QBs (both Rivals and Scout) who have not worked out.

We have some very good running backs now, but we need a QB who can throw the ball deep and accurately so that the defense can't pack the box. We also need an o-line that can support the running backs and the QB properly.

The big thing is that we don't need an amazing QB right now - although it would be a huge boost. We just need a QB who can keep the defense honest and not turn the ball over.

3) The juco OL has been through hell and won't use a scholarship unless he earns it. There is absolutely no reason to talk crap involving him.

Kevin Studer 7 years, 6 months ago

Read my post. I'm nolt talking crap on him. I'm talking crap on the excitement level he is bringing when, let's face it, he is not what any reasonable unbiased person would call a "big recruiting win."

kureignman 7 years, 6 months ago

I think it's funny how the same people that were dogging Stoudt last week are now saying this is a recruiting failure that we didn't get him. I guess you can't please some people.

Kevin Studer 7 years, 6 months ago

Like the people saying he was a savior last week, and now it's no big deal we didn't get him? It works both ways.

kureignman 7 years, 6 months ago

Well said. It's the age old debate of the homers vs the haters. Don't know why but it still surprises me sometimes how many KU "fans" take pleasure in bad news.

Joe Joseph 7 years, 6 months ago


Jaminrawk 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm not sure why Stoudt is being considered this messiah figure that was going to fix KU. It's not like we were neck and neck with USC, Florida, Alabama and Ohio State for the guy. Yeah, it sucks to miss out on a guy that might be really good, but he was a JUCO player whose only BCS offers came from Ole Miss, KU and Rutgers.

I also don't get why people on here actively root for KU failures. It seems like a big waste of time. If you dedicate your life to reveling in every unfortunate situation that happens to Gill, then you lead a sad life indeed.

stuck88 7 years, 6 months ago

A Few? It looks to me that over half of the people that post on here are trolls. All I hear is how Gill is going to fail, you cant tell me that Mangino would have been much better. Lets be honest the talent/speed that we have wasnt anywhere close what we thought it would be. KU didnt land Stoudt, but I remember last year Gill and his staff were able to steal a few recruits away from other schools. Cummings looks to be a good fit for us a QB and we have Big boys coming in on the OL and have some speed coming in at the skilled positions. Given time I see Gill pulling in top notch recruits,

jhoxnoh 7 years, 6 months ago

Jaminrawk: I'm with you. No savior in Stoudt. I have no doubt he is a good player but watch and see what he does the next two years at Ole Miss.

There are better days and better recruits ahead for KU and HCTG.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

The idea is that Stoudt would have been a stop-gap QB for us.

He is supposed to have a good arm and good accuracy - which tops both Webb and Mecham as of the last game of the season.

The other part of it is that we would have had three QBs to work with other than Cummings (Gill is trying to make Pick a full time WR). With only two other QBs, it makes it substantially less likely that we will be able to successfully redshirt Cummings and be able to compete during the season.

It was Gill's way of saying: "I am redshirting Cummings, but I want to be competitive next year so that I'm not fired for going 2-10 if Webb and Mecham don't progress."

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

The more I ponder it, the more I am realizing how a lot of us drank the kool-aid on this whole Stoudt thing. I think the way it was presented, because of our current QB situation, we all thought this was the solution to the problem. The the O-Line was weak this year anyway, and there's nowhere to go but up in my opinion...or stay the same. But hopefully up... And you never know what our current stable of QB's may develop over the year. If Webb could develop any kind of awareness, and the ability to actually throw the ball on target, he could be a force to be reckoned with. Seriously though. People say Webb can't I said earlier, the kid can throw, boy can he hurl it, it's just aim that's the problem. And having a general knowledge of what's going on around him...

ryanm1988 7 years, 6 months ago

What was Quin Mecham ranked last year?

Dirk Medema 7 years, 6 months ago

Almost exactly the same as Stoudt - 40-something, 3*

I've got a whole fan post of recent QB ratings at

NorthStarHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Hello....this is Lawrence, Kansas. Is anybody out there!

William James 7 years, 6 months ago

Your a bit late for the party. The sky started falling the day I saw Lew Perkins and Turner Gill embracing.

Chris Bruning 7 years, 6 months ago

oh well.....lets get a good QB out of high school....not JUCO. I guess im still kinda hoping Bubba Starling realizes he chose the wrong school (NEBRASKA) and decommits, then its either ku or kstate. this was a bad choice for this kid with martinez being just a freshman and another dual threat qb that is ranked right below bubba commiting to nebraska also....

Steven Mathew 7 years, 6 months ago

If you knew Bubba Starling, then you know he chose Nebraska for baseball. So stop hoping because that's a big waste of time for you.

stuck88 7 years, 6 months ago

Hes going to go pro in baseball anyway

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

Two heisman level players turned coaches couldn't land a juco qb. Guess we can put to rest what great recruiters they are!

Jaminrawk 7 years, 6 months ago

We certainly can't put to rest that you're a loser though.

Jaminrawk 7 years, 6 months ago

You know, I think we "get it" by now that you dislike Turner Gill and you blow up these threads everytime something happens with KU football. More than anything I can't believe that someone could create a name with a picture dedicated to one thing and constantly pontificate on a pretty easy issue only to repeatedly and annoyingly say "I told you so", in so many words. You are the definitition of a bad fan. You're a disgrace to KU fans everywhere.

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

I bet you said "in 2 or 3 years we will be good" at least nine times this year.

Jaminrawk 7 years, 6 months ago

I don't recall saying that once. I might have said something to the effect of "give the guy a little time". Sorry, but that's the way college athletics work. I'm not thrilled with Gill. But I don't beat dead horses either. Wallow in your displeasure or hope things get better. I choose the latter.

Ludwig Supraphonic 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm a KU fan. I hope we're good. You don't. We get it.

Dirk Medema 7 years, 6 months ago

May have missed on a 3 juco QB, but they are developing a habit of bringing in 4 RB's. As the OL developes some depth, and the RB's get more experience, you can have at least a respectable team and continue to build even without an elite QB - which Stoudt is not.

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Honestly, mulaza.... The kid made a choice for what he thought was in his best interest..... I can assume you are married, What's to say your Wife/husband made the wrong choice.... Nothing, Nothing at all. My point is, people make personal choices every day of their life, Lighting up a cigarette, eating a bagel, Taking the turnpike..... most of these decisions have absolutely nothing to do with the University of Kansas..... Or Turner gill.... Kid chose the SEC over the Big 12. he chose Nutt over Gill. It's the same amount of letters, 3 consonants and a vowel. Does it mean he made the right choice, Sure it does, because it was the right decision for him, doesn't mean Gill and Long cannot recruit. your wife/husband may wake up every morning and think your little anti_turnerisms are the cutest thing on the planet. and God love him or her for doing it because we think your an idiot. But either way, good luck Stoudt. Do your work Turner..... most of us still believe in you.

KU_FanSince75 7 years, 6 months ago

Jaminrawk---Just for the record, my life isn't sad. I guess we all know what happens when you ass----u/me.

Jaminrawk 7 years, 6 months ago

So by responding to me, you admit that you dedicate your life to revelling in Gill's failures? Who said I was even referring to you?

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

Some Perspective... Lets take a minute and look at some of the recruits that have opted to choose another school over Kansas in, oh i don't know, let's say-the last eight years. I seem to remember we were pretty high up on Terrence Jones' list! Strange that no one has called for Coach Self's job or even claimed that he personally failed when Brandon Knight chose... Yep! Twice! In one year! To the same coach.... Calamari anyone? Troy Gillenwater ring a bell? Self lost him a few years back to OSU, his own alma mater. I thought he was supposed to be good at recruiting? By now I'm going to assume you get the point! And ya, we landed Selby... these are high school kids. You do remember how mature, prepared, and responsible most high school kids are right? I'm not saying you guys don't have the right to criticize Gill, but seriously... get over yourselves. The guy has officially been here for one year, coaching another coaches players, and he has already out recruited Mangiant in his first season. And for all the HATERS... Gill has a better overall record in his first season than our previous (((center of gravitational pull))) and he has beaten a ranked team! Ya. Ya... Georgia Tech... No Good... you aren't telling me anything that I haven't already heard.
Its funny to see so many rally behind someone who clearly cared so little for his players, KU Parking Dept. employees, or even his own health. You've got kids man... I'd bet money they want you to stick around.
On to my point. Grow up and give the guy a chance! And please... lose the "but I didn't support the hire" replies. It's called OPTIMISM. Give it a try. Or at the very least try and be constructive.
I hope that at your next job this scenario plays out. Day one: All seems well as you get to know your coworkers and surroundings. Day two: Your boss flags you down and says "Ya... Sorry... but our expectations for you were completely unreasonable and unreachable, and oh bye the way... Where going to have to let you go because of it. Don't worry we still have to pay you for the next four years." Doesn't sound that reasonable.
Please, by all means, have your opinions, share them from time to time... but the constant Turner Gill diatribes are quickly becoming distractions to the real reason people come to this site--to read about and support the Jayhawks! But thats just my opinion. Almost forgot. Good luck in the SEC Stoudt! Would have loved to have you as a Jayhawk. That said, I wish you the best of luck at Ole Miss none the less.

KSseahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Love your passion brother.

The Mangino and HCBS comparisons are played. Obviously HCBS would have never been fired in his first or second year, because of his track record. He won everywhere he went and the stage was bigger with each progression.

TGill caught lightening in a bottle in Buffalo and Lew backed the Brinks truck up to his car hold, maybe bc he thought he'd stick one to ol' Osborne! Then he realized he was wrong and bolted early.

Lew is an attention monger and if he thought things were going to go well with TGill, he'd stick around for a victory lap. Why would he have left early? Wrong hire and a terrible contract.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Perkins left rather than being fired. Gill's contract probably had nothing to do with it.

The contract with Gill is so strongly in Gill's favor so that we are forced to give him a legitimate opportunity to work his plan. Otherwise you end up with two or three bad seasons because KU lacks a QB and the talent doesn't match up to the rest of the conference, angry KU fans comparing Gill to Terry Allen, and a new AD (Perkins planned to 'retire' anyways) who likely doesn't have much of a problem firing a coach that is angering some vocal fans.

stuck88 7 years, 6 months ago

Correct me if im wrong but didnt Lew leave because of a scandal?

KSseahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Who knows but Lew and God. Awfully interesting tho.

Kevin Studer 7 years, 6 months ago

I didn't realize "please beat a FCS Team and don't get blown out and embarrassed in conference play" were unrealistic expectations. If they were, then by all means...Coach Gil: You're doing great!

RockCaCO3 7 years, 6 months ago

Ibranch- you're spot on. I used to always read the "fan" comments, but Debbie Downer gets old, so now I usually just read the article and move on (today was an exception, kind of like watching a car wreck). Gill's been here ONE frickin year. Geesh people.

Dyrk Dugan 7 years, 6 months ago

i must admit....i'm fairly stunned. since his teammate committed, i figured he was a lock. ole Miss would just be given the once over...the courtesy look up and down...and then he'd turn toward his date.....turned out, we got two timed.

there truly are no more QBs on the board....unless you really go down to the "potential" of some of these kids.....the kid from Knoxville has been offered by Buffalo and Eastern Mich...and Frank Arbanas from Rockhurst fame has no offers...although the three local schools have shown "interest."

Next year, unless Meacham wins the job outright with a great spring, or, Christian Mathews makes the transition back, could be another rough year at QB. Unless Cummings comes back from the knee and just blows everyone's doors off....very doubtful though.

Turner Gill knows this: it's tough to win if your QB can't make plays on a consistent basis. we have to get some QBs in here that can play...and fast.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Definitely agree about the need to upgrade our QB-spot. We got lucky with Reesing but that's about it.

However, the good news is that we are raising the bar as to what guys we go after.

2011: Offered four 4-star QBs; four 3-star QBs; and one JuCo QB (Stoudt, 3-star). 2010: Offered three 4-star QBs; four 3-star QBs; and two JuCo QBs. (Coaching change) 2009: Offered two 4-star QBs; and three 3-star QBs. 2008: Offered one 5-star QB; two 4-star QBs; and three 3-star QBs. (Orange Bowl & 12-1 season) 2007: Offered one 4-star QB; three 3-star QBs; and five 2-star QBs. 2006: Offered two 3-star QBs; and one 2-star QB. 2005: Offered two 3-star QBs. 2004: Offered one 4-star QB; two 3-star QBs; and three JuCo QBs (one 5-star; two 3-star). 2003: Offered one 4-star QB; one 3-star QB; and three JuCo QBs (all 3-star). 2002: Offered two 3-star QBs; one 2-star QB; one 1-star QB; and two JuCo QBs (one 4-star; one 3-star).

As for total 4- and 5-star recruits offered by KU... 2011: 39 (5 still undecided) 2010: 39 2009: 25 2008: 13 2007: 13 2006: 8 2005: 7 2004: 3 2003: 6 2002: 2 (Note: excludes JuCo players)

With Gill, we are offering (significantly) more top recruits than we did under Mangino. We may not have someone personally recruiting each individual, but we are handing out offers to them.

kranny 7 years, 6 months ago

Nice homework. Very interesting. You can't get the kids if you don't knock on the door.

Eric Williams 7 years, 6 months ago

wait a second...

are you telling me that the GREAT Mark Mangino only targeted 13 4- and 5-star players after going 12-1 and winning the Orange Bowl.

And Gill targets 39 after going 3-9?

We should only be so lucky to have a coach like Mangino who wants to toil in mediocrity...

bigtex 7 years, 6 months ago

Gill gave his game opener starting QB 3 quarters and in the first 2 quarters that Qb went 11-13 on his passing. Gill never ran zone reads or play action roll outs with this mobile Qb.This Qb was benched after the to get the heat off Gill and Long. This staff cannot coach to the talents of their players,thats what seperates a good staff from a poor staff. It doesn't matter who the Qb is, this staff will be fired in 2-3 years if we have the money for a buy out anyway.

Steven Mathew 7 years, 6 months ago

Unbelievable. Turner Gill is terrible at recruiting. Ole Miss just enters the picture a couple weeks ago and snatches away someone who Turner has been recruiting for a long time. Turner has got to go. He can't coach, can't teach, and obviously cannot recruit. Get the hell out of here Turner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ben Kliewer 7 years, 6 months ago

This far down the post board...someone showed up late to the party...

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

@st20602 - "Unbelievable. Turner Gill is terrible at recruiting... and obviously cannot recruit. Get the hell out of here Turner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

You might want to do just a bit of research on those recruiting stats. Better yet, DevilHawk has done it for you! Just scroll up the page a bit if researching facts isn't up your alley.

Gil has in his first season matched Mangiant the doughnut killer's best season. And one could argue that a few (not all... i can see the "You said they weren't his recruits" comments pouring in now) of those 39 recruits from 2010 were late grabs by Gill and his staff once they arrived in Lawrence.
To recap what many here already know and some outright deny Mangiant 2/10 first season
Gill 3/10 Mangina 39 recruits on his best year of recruiting and his last full recruiting cycle - not even close Gill Matched that in his first year and is still pulling them in. The Guy that made the Orange feel skinny - Beat a ranked opponent in his first year... Nope! took several years to improve on his menial record and beat a ranked team. Gill - Yep!

I will agree with you sort of. Not so much that i respect the opinion of someone that obviously doesn't research what hes ranting about. More so because i think it's important for many here to realize.
I think Gill did a fairly mediocre job of coaching and preparing the team this year. That said, I'm not a practice, have no feel for team chemistry, or have any idea as to whether or not the players from this years team where truly dedicated to this team or just riding out their careers. Say what you will but Mangiant's affect on many of the players was obvious, and lets face it, you have to be tough to be a coach but praise goes a long way as well. Didn't see much praise during the Mangino years unless you were his golden boy. But I'm also a realist. When a guy gets hired for a job you give him a chance. If you are a football fan then I'm sure you know that it is absurd to hire a Coach and fire them a year later. (baring scandal of course) If you didn't know that then I'm not really sure why your opinion matters on a football post. So Again... constructive criticism based on facts = good Calling a coach a "horrible recruiter" and ending you rant with "Get the hell out of here Turner!!!!!!!!!" is, for one; based on nothing other than your clearly biased opinion, not fact. And Two... Really... Really... Class it up man. Your supposed to be a Jayhawk.

gorilla10 7 years, 6 months ago

Wow, Im more disappointed in all you KU fans that talk trash left and right on Turner Gill. He is a Jayhawk that wants nothing more than to turn this program around and this is the kind of love you give him! ........I will never talk trash on KSU fans again when the fans of the team I love act like this..........

Kevin Studer 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm not saying fire Gill. He has not had enough time, and there are going to be growing pains. But your argument has a big hole: OF COURSE Gill just wants to win. EVERY coach wants to win. That doesn't mean every coach will win, or that no coach should get fired for failure to accomplish his or her goal. I tell you this: Another season like this, and even his supporters will start to say that he might be in over his head.

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

@Cusack118... on an earlier post i replied to you "way to be constructive" I have to admit that my reply was steeped in sarcasm. So this time when i say "way to be constructive" I actually mean it.
Way to be constructive! I'm looking for intelligent, informed, and non-biased opinions. Your above post is clearly thought out and on point. Welcome to the conversation!

jayhawkintx73 7 years, 6 months ago

Huge disappointment. There was no excuse not to get him here. I stated approximately one week ago to GUARANTEE HIM HE WOULD START NEXT YEAR. Too late now.

The coaching staff is going to have to adjust to the players and call the right plays, and that doesn't include the same ones over and over again, until they find successful plays after the team can prove itself on the O-Line, which isn't going to happen til at least the 2011-2012 season. Another Allen is what I see. All Hype, No Delivery. GLEN MASON ANYONE?

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Gill wouldn't guarantee that Stoudt would start - although it was certainly probable.

Here's the thing: we don't need Stoudt in the long term. We mainly needed him to keep opposing defenses honest during the 2011 season while Webb improves and Cummings redshirts.

We should be in very good shape in 2012 and 2013, but we need KU "fans" not to drive him out while he improves the talent and depth of the program.

Ratings-wise, we currently have the most solid KU team we have had in a very long time - if not the best ever. However, that means nothing without a QB - and even less now that we play the entire (former) Big 12 South each year and one more conference game per year.

Questions to consider are: What does this class look like once it is solidified on signing day? How much will the team improve with the changes that have been made and with Gill not focusing on getting the team with him and holding the team together? * What will the KU recruiting class of 2012 look like when Gill has more time to focus on recruiting and will no doubt have more connections?

jayhawkintx73 7 years, 6 months ago

I don't disagree with you there but it sets back our recruiting for a couple of seasons while Webb develops. No matter who is signed now, Webb would be the starter next season for every game, period. He has 3 years of eligibility left.

We also have Sims, Sands, with 3 years eligibility left. MacDougald has 2.

The reason it is disappointing is that we can finish top 4 or 5 in the conference, only with Stoudt next season. Only one team we can finish ahead of without him, and that is Iowa State and having a third losing season in a row will be bad for recruiting unless they are 35-28 losses instead of 59 - 7 or 55 - 7 losses.

The team has to at least show vast improvement next season, and have chances to win in the fourth quarter or we're in for another Terry Allen era followed by a Mark Mangino 2, if we can get another one to come after the way he was sent packing.

The ratings vs other KU teams is not as important as ratings vs KU Opponents.

After Mangino was fired we lost out on two four star defensive ends and 4 star running back. We managed to salvage a 4 star running back from Blue Springs. KU is going to have to guarantee players starting positions if they are 4 stars or better to get them to come. We need five on the roster come September 2012, or it will be a very long, disappointing Turner Gill Era.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

How much of the issue with Terry Allen was the fact that the Texas schools had just joined to form the Big 12? That was a major recruiting advantage for the Big 12 South.

In the North, Nebraska and K-State were consistent Top 10 teams at that time, which obviously helped recruiting.

The remaining teams (CU, ISU, KU, Mizzou) were mostly fighting over the leftovers would be my guess.

Ultimately, most of the game comes down to recruiting and not making mistakes on the field. We will need to see what happens.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

I see delivery so far. The 2011 class is on par so far with the 2008 class and 2010 class, all three of which are just slightly below the 2009 class - ratings-wise. Those are the best classes we have had this decade, and the 2011 class still has the potential to get even better. It also helps that Gill is more charismatic than Mangino - by far.

It's too early to judge about the hype of Gill, because most of it focused on what he can do in the long run - not the short run. Let's see how the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes shape up and how we play in 2012 and 2013.

ebizzle 7 years, 6 months ago

How is this a surprise?

We were leading when the next best option was enter Ole Miss and we lose out.

I can't believe it. How many kids have chosen KU over the SEC lately? This isn't on Gill.

Jaminrawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, I'm gonna say that 90% of the time the SEC school is going to win. Ole Miss produced Archie and Eli Manning. Even Jevan Snead was on the national radar for a few years. Why are people really surprised he chose the school with the CBS contract?

Mike Hart 7 years, 6 months ago

Ok, so we lost out on the #2 Juco QB recruit. Gill and his staff almost landed him, it came down to KU and Ole Miss. So now what? You guys want to give up on Gill and his staff? That attitude just sucks. We can give Bob Velesante and Terry Allen 3-5 years each and yet... you guys are already writing off Gill after just one year, taking over a program that embarrassed the university with all it's drama and scandals the previous season. You call that giving Gill a fair chance?? Shamed to call you Jayhawk fans.

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Mhart, This is nothing new. People have wanted to run Gill out of town after North Dakota State... We've been fighting this battle with the Pro-Mangino crowds, because Mangino gave him the best talent he ever had and look what Gill did with it on the Field..... Turns out Mangino's results were lacking. a 2-10 Mangino gets a pat on the back for getting the kid's to buy in. a 3-9 Gill gets Fire Gill. plastering the airwaves. People make any reaosn they can for such BS..... Sad really.

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Mhart, This is nothing new. People have wanted to run Gill out of town after North Dakota State... We've been fighting this battle with the Pro-Mangino crowds, because Mangino gave him the best talent he ever had and look what Gill did with it on the Field..... Turns out Mangino's results were lacking. a 2-10 Mangino gets a pat on the back for getting the kid's to buy in. a 3-9 Gill gets Fire Gill. plastering the airwaves. People make any reaosn they can for such BS..... Sad really.

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

Its funny how short sighted the memories of many of the Gill haters are. Its so much easier to make your point when you substitute fact with opinion. Is what it is though...

KSseahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

We're not looking at records here....looking, rather, at progress, development, semblance of a system, etc. This team did not compete in many games this year. Especially the 'rivalry' games. This is what the 'program' must focus on for next season. Here's hoping it clicks next season, bc that's good for KU, but if more of the same.............

beenahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Coach Val only got 2 years and Gameball 5 (short one game) BOTH were HUGE failures.

Layne Pierce 7 years, 6 months ago

It just might be that he likes Mississippi tang better than Kansas. Fact is without an improved line, Tom Brady couldn't right this ship. Watch out for Cummings, bad knew will be recovered. But either way give Mecham time, and Webb a little more experience, and they will be sufficient, until Cummings is healthy to play. Cummings is a little bit of Turner Gill and Tommy Frazier. We don't want a saviour we want a team.

ku has always had the great individuals, but nothing to go with them. What Gill is trying to do is change that. He may fail, but the idea is the only way to make kU into a real BCS program.

I like the speed he is recruiting. Now they have to come up with the configuration to take advantage of it.

sdoyel 7 years, 6 months ago

Will all of you guys bashing Gill also blame Self for missing out on the top talent in this year's recruiting class too?

KSseahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

No...because we don't need any more 'X Factors'. As long as HCBS is there, I'm confident with whomever is out there.

jayhawkintx73 7 years, 6 months ago

sdoyel, no. Because he brings McDonald's All Americans each and every year. And, he's won 6 Straight Big 12 Championships with one National Championship thrown in there.

kranny 7 years, 6 months ago

If you're talking this year's recruits, I'm not so sure: Darian Miller-offered from Wisconsin, Goodman-offers from Miami(FL), Damon Martin-Arizona and Utah. and others. No not a top 25 but it will get there.

Bear86 7 years, 6 months ago

Disappointed in Stoudt's choice but not surprised. I'm still holding judgment on HCTG but in light of what happened to the conference this summer Kansas better put a winning Football team on the field soon or we will find our selves on the outside looking in when this shaky conference (controlled by the Tx hick's) falls apart in a few years. Any one else have confidence in Dan Bebbe??

F-Texas !!!!!!

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

I figure that we have 3 or 4 more years of the conference holding together. That should also be the same time that Gill has the program contending for a conference title year-in and year-out. (If things go according to plan and intention.)

William James 7 years, 6 months ago

TX hicks huh? Classy. If your so much better, then find another conference. Those TX hicks are the only thing keeping you above the level of Toledo and Buffalo right now.

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Ehh don't listen to Fabio.... He's a mangino apologist.

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Ehh don't listen to Fabio.... He's a mangino apologist.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago


Thanks for updating the article - it helps confirm what some of us expected about the decision.

caribhawk 7 years, 6 months ago

KU still ranked 8th in big 12 football recruiting by - - enough said! One four-star recruit at RB, one defensive linemen recruit, no QB that can make a difference, UG! Recruiting was supposed to be TG's edge and he can't even recruit his college position, not even the combo of him and Long can recruit a real QB. Stoudt was not going to be the answer anyway. TG left Buffalo in a mess, they are ranked last or near last in NCAA in almost every category this year - - he really pulled the wool over Lew's eyes and capitalized on one good season This is how the KU program will look if he is here 3-4 years.....

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Yes, because there was a good clean transition from one coach to the next and KU has a renown football program. Give me a break.

Gill had to fix problems among the team, begin installing his system, and find a QB who could perform on the field. Let's see what happens with the recruiting class of 2012, when Gill can focus more on recruiting.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Next year doesn't look promising unless the QB situation improves drastically.

Kirk 7 years, 6 months ago

Of course not. Let's wait 25 years before evaluating Gill, huh?

waywardJay 7 years, 6 months ago

Keep in mind. THEY ARE PLAYING IN BUFFALO. The kids who would have come with Gill changed plans, They were probably just able to pull together enough players to play, let alone challenge for anything.

Ehhh Rivals sure had us pegged right in 2007-2008, didn't they ?

Seriously, Experts are right all the time... just look at Dick Vitale and his pre-season Jayhawks Ranking....... Just goes to show you what experts matter. nothing.

stuck88 7 years, 6 months ago

What did you expect? He comes right in and pulls in a top 10 recruiting class? Right now KU is in the top 50 in recruiting and I believe that we are ahead of K-State, which means Gill out recruited the Future Hall of Fame member Snyder. So it looks like Gill can recruit and I see KU bringing in better talent in the future.

Ashwin Rao 7 years, 6 months ago

Are there any other JUCO QBs who are interested in KU? We do need to give Michael Cummings a year to get adjusted to the speed at this level and get stronger (and recover)... Neither of our current crop of QBs can take us where we want.

kesmithstl1 7 years, 6 months ago

Ol' Miss wasn't going to take the chance of letting the next Cam Newton slip through again. Wonder what it took?

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

The next Cam Newton... The games still have to be played. I needed a good chuckle today. Thank You!

pktone1979 7 years, 6 months ago

"....take the chance of letting the next Cam Newton slip through again." It was Mississippi State that Newton's father attempted to extort.

Show some class or at least get the facts straight!

ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

Dare I say gill and his staff didn't "execute"

On a serious note, anybody heard anything from the "group of recruits huddled, deciding to change a program" that were on campus not that long ago?

Kenneth Hillman 7 years, 6 months ago

Thank you for that reminder. What did happen there? Did Keegan post an article about that?

jayhawkjed 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm not sure you Mangino haters can say Gill has outrecruited Mangino at this point in his tenure. Mangino brought in a JUCO QB his first year, Bill Whittemore, who then led us to a bowl. If one of Gill's RB can do the same, I'll stand corrected. Personally I think the most important position on the field is QB and in year 2, Mangino did a better job than Gill has this year.

RockCaCO3 7 years, 6 months ago

I'm not a Mangino hater, but I'm pretty sure a comparison of Gill's recruiting to ANY other KU coach is a bit premature at this point.

khummel60 7 years, 6 months ago

Here's an interesting quote from the Scout web site (see ):

"I just clicked with the Ole Miss staff and really like how balanced their offense is," Stoudt said. "I also think their staff can prepare me for the next level. I liked what they had coming back on their offensive line with all their starters back."

Clearly, KU's OL doesn't compare well against many Div-1 teams right now, much less Ole Miss. Add to that the opportunity to play in the SEC, and this just seems like a no-brainer for Stoudt. Maybe we should be impressed that Kansas was even able to make this a difficult decision for him.

midhawktx 7 years, 6 months ago

I admit that I have been very critical of the entire coaching staff this season. We now get to see how these coaches teach and coach going into next year. Three things I am going to evaluate for next year: 1. Are the players in shape; 2. Are our players willing to be fired up to compete for four quarters; 3. How is the progression at the QB position. If they are good coaches then we will see a huge improvement in the QB position. Remember, Mangino did not have 4 star QB's.

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

Holy Cow! Someone who doesn't necessarily buy into Gill but can still be supportive and give him a chance? Am I on because something doesn't feel right here... +1 midhawktx +1

midhawktx 7 years, 6 months ago

The realistic view Ibranch is that we have to give him a chance. We can't afford to get rid of him monetarily and hurt our reputation. I freaked out because of conf realignment and don't want to be left out next round. However, I put myself in Gill's shoes and would want the chance to bring in my players and set my system in place. We will see how it goes...tough schedule next year. RCJH!

Jonathan Allison 7 years, 6 months ago

everyone who is saying that this is a recruiting failure and a reputation killer needs to learn a less from the head basketball coach. Just because a shot went in doesn't mean that it was a good shot. And just because an opposing players shot didn't go in doesn't mean that you played good defense.

Gill may have recruited this QB perfectly and just not landed him because he wanted to be in the SEC (or for whatever other reason). No fault of Coach Gill's. Just like when Bill Self didn't get Harrison Barnes.

William James 7 years, 6 months ago

Haha! Love the basketball analogy. A true KU fan.

KGphoto 7 years, 6 months ago

I've been sayin' for a while, I'd rather have a dual threat QB in college anyway. The NFL can have their pocket passers, and the SEC will provide them. Dual threat QBs win games in the NCAA. Especially if you aren't in top ten territory for pocket passers.

I'd much rather have a run-oriented offense, with a legit dual threat QB.

The problem could be a clash of offensive philosophies. Chuck Long, the pocket guy vs. Turner Gill the option guy. It hasn't been mentioned, but how could that not possibility lurk in the backs of their minds?

KU is built to run. So run.

KSseahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Sorry set me up. Our best RB is now on the defense.

Roy Scherff 7 years, 6 months ago

Jaminrawk has got it right. 2012 is the year. calm down, behave like mature adults and support the program.

kudzutexas 7 years, 6 months ago

As someone that attended Ole Miss, (but loves the Jayhawks) the grove, campus, greek houses, oxford square, beautiful countyside, and opportunity to play in the SEC would be hard for anyone to turn down. However, Mecham was a top juco quarterback with a weak arm. Stoudt was a 62 percent completion quarterback in juco. If I'm not mistaken he completed less than 50 percent in his final juco game which he lost. Although bigger, he doesn't seem very mobil in the films he posted on youtube. Maybe he's not such a great loss. It would be nice to have more competition out there pushing the other quarterbacks. We'll see it Stoudt takes Ole Miss to the promised land. Watch his tapes. I think he'll be eaten alive in the SEC.

Our other great juco transfers (Jocques Crawford, Vernon Brooks, Calvin Rubles, Travis Stephens, Rod Harris, Quintin Woods, Patrick Resby, and Nathan D'Cunha) didn't set the world on fire.

justanotherfan 7 years, 6 months ago

Short term, this definitely hurts. Stoudt would've solidified the QB position next year while Cummings got healthy and learned the system. Then, in Spring practice 2012, Cummings would've had a chance to win the starting job and lead the team.

So this hurts in 2011, but may help in 2012. By then, we will have our great lineman haul from this season ready to contribute, as well as a new QB, a faster defense and a stable of high quality RBs (Sims, Bourbon, Miller, Smith, etc.).

I think next year we will be more successful, although with the tougher schedule, that may not be reflected in wins. Our defense should improve with Terry and MacDougald manning the back line at safety. Huldon Tharp returns at LB, where he should really help. Toben will have a full spring under his belt on defense. That right there should improve our defense tremendously.

Offensively, it will come down to line play. If we can run the football, we can be competitive. If we can't, it will be really ugly.

kudzutexas 7 years, 6 months ago

It seems as if we are building a future. I don't know if we will see it come together next year. But, I agree with you. We are building a nice group of RBs, stocking up on big OLmen, some tall fast receivers, and athletic safeties. But, they are all young. I think your right on with the 2012 come together year.

Fred Davis 7 years, 6 months ago

Wow, I guess being a non-stop hater of KU Football has become chic since Turner Gill took over considering most of the ignorant, doomsday posts thus far... This is definitely a blow to Gill's staff, but the SEC is the SEC, and right now, the Big 12 and KU are going to lose out to the SEC and Ole Miss... It's recruiting, it happens. I don't think this is an indictment on Gill's recruiting ability as much as it is a product of recruiting... It's a grimey process, and anyone that knows anything about recruiting will tell you that... Who knows what Houston Nutt said to this kid, and who knows whether the kid will ever step on the field in Oxford... Either way, there's no reason to bemoan the situation, the reality is, Jordan Webb needs to get his mind right and Chuck Long needs to earn his paycheck - because we're going to see just how good of a QB Coach he is... From watching Webb, the kid has the physical tools, but he lacks the swagger needed to excel at the QB position, especially in the Big 12.... Quin? I'm not sure what tools he has...

Remember - Mangino struggled mightily at the QB position after Bill Whitemore left until he struck jackpot with Reesing - and to some of those above - those of us who watched film on Reesing in high school knew he had the skills to be a baller - he was just a midget.... I'm not sure what to expect from Webb - if he gets it, that light goes on, who knows, he could shock everybody... On the positive side - he's got all offseason to take the job, and if he can't take it from Quin, then we know he's not a D-I Quarterback... But I'm hoping the kid can pull it together... He'll only be a redshirt sophomore with another year of the offense under his belt...

kudzutexas 7 years, 6 months ago

FreddyD, thanks for calling out the haters. It gets old.

KSseahawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Maybe QB isn't the main problem. He's got 3 QBs that he's had the chance to evaluate. However, taking away the best RB from the offense sure didn't help whomever he rolled out there at QB. Any one of these guys can manage the game if they have a solid running game and frankly TO was the best least he had experience. He and Sims could have been the combo platter. All roads seem to point back to TGill.

I know...if if's and but's were candies and nuts...

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

So there wasn't an article just a few days ago about how Gil has already stolen Nebraska recruits? They are called facts... and they are relatively simple to track down.

Kirk 7 years, 6 months ago

"young miss" sounds better than "ole miss" me.

The reason some of us are "Gill haters" is because we didn't like having our faces rubbed in this nonsense of shoving out a competitive coach for politically correct reasons by an old buzzard who didn't give a damn about alumni or anything else at KU except money, and who ran off after hiring an unproven guy who made is name playing, not coaching.

We don't like seeing idiotic steps backward -- especially when we were sold on getting a "next level" coach.

Sam Brockert 7 years, 6 months ago

I have said it a thousand times, Mangino was NOT fired because of the "Mistreatment" of players he was fired because he lost 7 games in a row and Lew Perkins never liked him. so don't bring up this "PC" bull.

Coyotehawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Perkins never liked Mangino because Mangino wasnt an a$$ kisser. Although Perkins did good on some things for this university, he was a virus. Infected by greed and didnt give a rats a$$ what he had to do to get what he wanted. I'm not sure how some of you think, but i'de rather be around an old hateful SOB that speaks the truth then around a lying, crooked, a$$ sniffing nice guy.

This is the gridiron, not the 700 club. If you want to mingle amongst nice people, go to church. If you want results on the football field, hire a SOB.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

And if you want donors opening their wallets like never before, then you want results on the field AND a charismatic coach - e.g.: Bill Self.

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

And so by your rationalization, its better to be around a mean guy (Mangiant) who didn't kiss his ass (Lew Perkins') and was failing at his job. instead of going with the other resolute individual (Lew Perkins, who did what he wanted and kissed no ones ass--your definition of Mr. Mark Mangiant) that was extremely successful at what he was hired to do? OK Lets not forget or blindly ignore that Lew was hired to do a job and he did it beyond expectation. We all may not like to admit it but; the reality is that the University of Kansas is just that, a university, and for all intents and purposes a business. Are you allowed to fail at your job yet be allowed to keep it? If so where do i apply, sounds a lot easier than this working hard everyday thing I'm doing now. My point! Like most posters that throw around nonsense devoid of facts as a means to spew their biased opinions--Congratulations! You have expertly applied an argument that contradicts itself when all elements are viewed rationally.
Nice try though.

Coyotehawk 7 years, 6 months ago

So the fact that Perkins exceeded all expectations allows complete overshadowing of all his screw ups, and the embarassment that was left behind?????

Its people like you with the mind set you have that destroyed this country that we live in. Its ok to phatt'n your pockets and operate with complete disregard to long term issues, as long as you are fullfilling your current commitments.... Its not about the here and now. Its about the legacy one leaves behind that really matters.

You said mangino was failing at his job. I wouldnt call two years out of National Coach of the Year "Failing" at his job. All programs hit rough spots. Its a part of the sport. I guess in your terms, Texas should fire Brown after the season he had this year. I'll call Mr. Dodds first thing in the morning and let him know.

Guess its true what they say.

"Its not what have you done for me. Its what have you done for me recently."

Also, I hope your puffin your chest out real nice and big for lashing out at an internet post. Takes a real man to do that. You gave me a good laugh. I love keyboard badasses.

Kirk 7 years, 6 months ago

Perkins is the one who called the investigation into Mangino's mistreatment of players. BEFORE KU lost 7 games in a row.

We were probably up to about 5 losses before Perkins announced open season on assassinating the coach's character.

Were losses the REAL reason? Probably so, along with "not hired by me" and just plain personal dislike. But is that what Perkins said? Nope.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Then you have a bad reason for being a "Gill hater." Mangino was fired because Perkins wanted him gone for a while. I describe it in more detail in a post above.

Coyotehawk 7 years, 6 months ago

If theres one thing this article proves, its that


100 7 years, 6 months ago

I already said this was a pretty big loss for us.

It sounds like you're really sad about losing Stoudt.

Coyotehawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Yes, I'm streaming tears right now..

---------> There, cant you see that one.

I'm so upset that KU Footbal didnt.......

Wait, KU Football??? WTF

Did anyone else happen to read the article on Selby today..........


ahpersecoachingexperience 7 years, 6 months ago

This also falls onto the sports info department or whoever it is that "leaks" out information to the papers. It should of never been said that this guy was a "top priority" instead it should of came out as "a good get" "added depth" or "player that could come in and compete for a job." He should of been downplayed to the public while telling the player the truth to his face. Instead, this staff has essentially told it's team and fans that this guy was a must get for the program and we are screwed without him. And since we didn't get him, well, let's just say the season ticket office had another slow day today.

Jamaal25Chiefs 7 years, 6 months ago

Talib was a 2*. . . . A * doesn't mean SH1T. . . . its all about work ethic and the coaching staff. . . We just had LITTLE talent on key positions . . . the best coaches can't make a player good . . unless he his willing too put the work in the weight room. . . or has the given talent . . . Gill has brought in a lot of good talent. . . with more too come. . . . this coming year will still be disappointing. .. with the freshmen to be needing the EXP. . . . but the year after that. . . watch out. . . . PATIENCE is the key word too use at a time like this.

ltownatrain 7 years, 6 months ago

While patience may be the key word, very few people are going to be patient if the team goes 3-9 again. Not because KU had success in the past 5 years but because most KU fans are also basketball fans and they can't stomach the thought of another summer where KU is left hanging cause conference re-alignment starts rearing its ugly neck again as it likely will in a few years. The fact is because of the unstable landscape of college football right now KU needs to be playing winning football so they can showcase what they have to offer other conferences.

Jamaal25Chiefs 7 years, 6 months ago

Yes agreed. . . but not really anyone cared about KU football until the 2007 season. . . . I never looked or cared if we won or lost until that season i wont lie. . . but now its just about be patient. . it is gunna take at least another year too get the coaching into these players heads. . . and too figure out what works best with what players. . . we have brought in a few other weapons though. . . Miller from BSHS. . . i like him although i do also like Sims

danmoore 7 years, 6 months ago

I’m not as bummed by this as a lot of people are. I judge the quality of a recruit not by the stars but by the teams that want him. If he was that good someone other than two schools who combined for 7 wins would have recruited him.

None of our current QB’s lit up the conference last season but a player is only as good as his team allows him. If Todd was our QB we don’t lose the NDSU game and go 4 – 8 instead of 3-9. Every area of our offense needs to improve and if that happens our QB will improve as well.

I’m on board with Gill but if this team does not improve next season, much of the criticism leveled against him will be warranted. The lopsided losses against mediocre teams cannot be attributed to lack of talent or players in a new system. Not saying TG has to win 6 games but at the very least we need to be competitive.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

If healthy Reesing had been our QB this year, we probably would have had a winning season.

Webb threw 7 TDs to 8 INTs with a 56.5% completion rate. Mecham threw 4 TDs to 5 INTs with a 59.8% completion rate.

In 2009, Reesing threw 22 TDs to 10 INTs with a 63.1% completion rate. In 2008, he threw 32 TDs to 13 INTs with a 66.5% completion rate. In 2007, he threw 33 TDs to 7 INTs with a 61.8% completion rate.

Reesing kept plays and drives alive with his feet and with a higher completion rate - including a much better TD to INT ratio.

But Reesing graduated and our QBs didn't play how we needed them to. It revealed nearly all of the flaws on the team, but it also resulted in an incredibly bad season.

I hear Brett Favre might be available though...

Jamaal25Chiefs 7 years, 6 months ago

You have too also understand that Reesing had more weapons than Mecham or Webb. . . i like Mechan though. . . he seemed more cool than Webb. . . i personally think that Gill will likely now stick with one of these kids. . . Webb is just very inexperienced. . . he doesn't seem to bring leadership though like Reesing was able too

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Our receivers are somewhat inexperienced, but we had more talent at the position than any other except running back this year.

Reesing could get the ball to his receiver spot-on but had some extra leeway when throwing to Meier or Briscoe.

Especially as the season wore on, it seemed like our receivers lost faith in the QB - moreso with Webb than with Mecham. A QB that plays well and doesn't turn the ball over makes a huge difference...just ask the Chiefs.

Steve Gantz 7 years, 6 months ago

The kid made the right choice, why would anyone choose a KU for football?

Kirk 7 years, 6 months ago

If KU had landed Stoudt, it would have proven Gill's superior recruiting ability. Posters would have said, "See? He is God."

But as that didn't happen, it's no reflection on Gill's recruiting prowess whatsoever, because Stoudt felt more like going somewhere else. That's all.

I getcha

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

I love the black and white approach (Wishing there was a way to appropriately indicate sarcasm) He gets him... best recruiter ever! He loses him... run this guy out of town. Unfortunately reality doesn't work like that. I would offer this question because it seems only rational. How about we see what he can do over time? But the unfortunate reality is that by many, Gill and now even Cunningham will never be given a chance to succeed. Luckily these self proclaimed college athletic aficionados aren't the ones making the decisions.
Just imagine. Self would have been gone following his 2nd, maybe third season; a 24 and 9 record... not cutting it Bill. And then back to back first round losses in the tournament; not at Kansas. Most of the dissenters that troll around here to stir up Missouri caviar (crap) would have handed him his walking papers. I mean look what Roy left him... Wayne Simien, Aaron Miles, and a couple of Micky D's All Americans in David Padget and J.R. Giddens. Clearly those players bought into Self's system; one basically immediately transfered and notably had a very solid college career. The other got stabbed, and then, shown the door. Why couldn't Bill get a team with several extremely talented players to win more games. Oh ya, it was his first couple of years, give the guy a break.
Bill gets a chance for being Bill. I'm actually cool with that, It's Bill (frigin self) Turner Gill (and now with the news update. Cunningham) don't get a chance because you... the guys who are clearly databases of infinite knowledge in college athletics, have never heard of the guy. Back to reality... In real life its the big name hires that bring high expectations and are under constant scrutiny that must succeed or face the consequences. Again... take a step back towards reality and realize how irrational all the "fire this guy, why the hell did we hire that guy" talk is. But rational thought apparently only exists in reality.
I do however have a suggestion for the Haters. Regarding Gill and Cunningham You want Gill fired? For roughly fifty to sixty dollars one can purchase EA's NCAA 2011 College football on any platform and then have a fireing fest. Hell you can rehire him just to fire him again. Hell! All that couch quarterbacking... go into player creation mode and input yourself into the game. For Cunningham, the same basic principle except the game is for you CPU and its called ESPN's College Town. Who would you hire? Yourself? I'm sure your qualified.

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

Hey if Turner Gill wins a national championship in 5 years and 6 conesecutive Big 12 championships, I'll eat crow...

Realistically speaking, we've seen this story too many times and know the ending.

Bill Self also was successful at Oral Roberts and brought Tulsa to an Elite 8. Turner Gill struggled in the MAC.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Winning became more difficult when we added the Texas schools and became the Big 12...which happened the year before Terry Allen took over.

We are 5-25 against the Texas schools since they joined, and 2 of those wins were in 2007. We have a similar record against the Oklahoma schools in Big 12 play.

Winning is about to become even more difficult now that we play the entire South every year.

However, we now have a better shot at recruiting Texas and Oklahoma players, because we play every school each year instead of 2 of 4 Texas schools and 1 of 2 Oklahoma schools.

We have a solid recruiting class so far, especially given the circumstances. If Gill and this staff are the recruiters that we were told that they were, then we should see a better recruiting class in 2012.

The other important question will be how well Webb and Mecham develop over the off-season. I am sure that of the time Gill spends personally coaching players in the off-season, most of it is going to be spent working with the QBs.

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

Webb and Mecham are not division 1 quarterbacks.

They simply won't work at this level.

If we're going to be successful next year offensively, our starting QB should be a guy that wasn't on this years roster.

We need to recruit a QB.

Hawk44 7 years, 6 months ago

But, but Gill didn't get a recruit!!!!! He has to go!! Right?!?! Mangino got every recruit he ever wanted!!!!!!1111oneone

Seriously, Mangino had big time recruits come in and visit and whiffed on (William Cole) and got lesser known who succeeded (Dez).

Could happen here with Cummings (who by the way has great video).

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

Gill isn't the coach that Mangino was.

Mangino never promised recruits and was never hired because of his recruiting ability. He was hired because of X's and O's.

Gill was hired to recruit so by God he better start.

David Hodges 7 years, 6 months ago

And he was ultimately fired for seven of those O's... in a row. Seriously did anyone watch those games? Can you honestly tell me those offensive schemes were getting it done? Man our Defense was eating people up! Wait... Do O's mean wins or loses? Did we win or lose those last seven games under (ughh... i feel the weight crushing in now) Mangiant? Man... I bet we won those games and all this time i was just reading the X's and O's wrong. If i could only erase those lackluster Saturdays from my memory. At least the beer always drank well. And on two of those days the weather was good in Lawrence so it was great to be outside amongst friends. Sure wasn't much greatness going on inside the stadium. Good thing Mangino got all those O's... or X's... which is it? He won seven in a row right?

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

So we're supposed to give Gill time... but Mangino gets criticized for going 5-7 after coming off an Orange Bowl win and an Insight Bowl win?

Remember when 5-7 used to be a good season at KU?

Kirk 7 years, 6 months ago

5-7 is looking pretty good again. I guess because we're a the "next level'?

Really, I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we get anywhere near 5 years next year.

Good thing we got rid of that scary fat man who lost 7 whole games after having what, four out of his last five seasons being winning ones?

Winning seasons...hmmm....quaint idea. Wonder when that will happen again?

Not until after we lose this interim coach.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

We are a combined 8-37 against the Big 12 South.

Of what remains of the North, we are 9-6 against ISU; 4-12 against K-State; and 7-8 against Mizzou in Big 12 play.

In the Big 12, we could have a winning season by going 4-0 in a light nonconference schedule, and 3-5 in conference play, including 0-3 against the Big 12 South.

In the Big 12(10), we need to go 3-0 in nonconference and then 4-5 in conference play, which means that we need at least one win over a Big 12 South school every year in order to have a winning overall record.

Any losses in the nonconference schedule or against former North teams will need to be accounted for by winning against other former South teams.

Mangino had one season where the team had a winning conference record: 2007.

Mangino had one season where the team was 0.500 in conference play: 2008. However, the wins were against ISU, Mizzou, K-State, and CU.

CU left the conference, and KU is 4-15 all time against Bill Snyder-coached K-State teams (1-11 against Snyder in Big 12 play).

Statistically, that all means that we are looking at going 5-7 in a good year and 6-6 on the occasional very good year.

Unless we can upgrade our talent to match the rest of the conference and fix our consistent QB-problem, that is.

Assuming that we actually keep Gill and that the staff does what they were hired to do, then we should expect the potential of winning seasons again in 2012 or 2013.

KURiggins 7 years, 6 months ago

Its one miss, no big deal. Besides Matt Tait could not have been more wrong if he had tried. I do not see where there was one single bright spot on that OL anywhere. Duane Z. or otherwise. The entire unit recruited by Mark "Thank God he is Gone" Mangino did look soft. Luckily Coach Gill realized this and the first unit he addressed was OL. Our QB was not so much the problem as how lousy our OL line. OL has to play with attitude. Nebraska where Coach Gill played only ran two plays for 20+ years Option Right and Option Left. Try and stop it. No one really could? KU didn't. Why not? The option is not that complex to defend, if you are assignment sound. Why could no one stop them? OL attitude. Not just great OL, but they were determined to push your DL were NOT pushing them around. Coach Gill went and got OL first. And I think Jordan Webb has real potential. How crazy thought here KU about the fact he had no playing experience.Because, that moron Mangino even in blowouts never gave significant playing time to anyone but Reesing. Oh I forgot Kale Pick got to play QB/RB a couple of times, so he could risk breaking his neck. Webb, had never played in a DI game before. A weak OL, NO running game..and let us look at the very few moments. I would not even say games but moments where we sorta, kinda had a not so weak OL..OMG..OMG we ran the ball over 100yards a result James Sims(a Gill Recruit I might add and a true Fr) got going and our QB whoever it was got run support and did well. Georgia Tech and the 4th Q of Colorado game. By the way, for those Mangino lovers out did Mangino do against Colorado last year? I don't know..I think we lost that game. We a Sr QB, Sr WR, Jr WR, Sr RB, Sr SS ... Our problem was not QB, or even was a weak, very weak OL Mangino recruited. Gill is trying to fix that ..and bring in some decent OL.

KURiggins 7 years, 6 months ago

By the did Coach Mangino finish last year? I mean correct me if I am wrong ..we dropped seven...that's right ..SEVEN in a row. With a team a lot of us, me included hoped would repeat with a possible Orange Bowl berth. Coach Gill inherets a team with experience at QB, no WR that really scares you, and no depth at RB. Did we have a tough season? No doubt, but I expected that. I am a realist. I did NOT expect last year. With the supposed Mosiah Mangino..who..I will remind you again dropped seven in a row..that was with Reesing, Meier, Briscoe and Sharp. We may have not had a lot of bright spots this year...but I for one took away a good feeling from the Georgia Tech win. And the "Thrilla on the Hilla" over Colorado. For the record Mangino..for as great as he was..could not beat Colorado last year..and based on a lot of comments on these blogs...Colorado should always be easy to beat..I mean what is the deal. Either they are or they aren't. Keep going Coach Gill. I for one have hope for next year and years to come. I remember that you inhereted a KU team in ..if you were lucky the middle of the recruiting season. Time will tell..but James Sims looks like a beast, and cannot wait to see Brandon Bourbon. Its always easier to criticize than to coach.. go get em Coach Gill. And Rock Chalk!

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

How did Mangino finish last year? He finished 5-7 which, because of Mangino, was considered a disappointing season. Remember when 5-7 was a great season?

Why do people pretend that Reesing, Meier, Briscoe, and Sharp were some kind of athletic Gods. Reesing was a 5'9 210 QB no coach in the nation would have started. Meier was a QB that Mangino turned into a slot receiver who is now in the NFL at that position. Sharp was 100 lbs and could be arm tackled by a baby.

And Mangino lost on a last minute touchdown AT CU. Gill had to pull off the biggest comeback ever to beat Colorado at home.

Hawk44 7 years, 6 months ago

Good thing you are informed!!!

So far 3 (Miller, Bourbon, and Terry) 4*'s have decided to come to KU. And also according to, KU has a recruiting class that is 20 spots higher than Old Balls and with a higher recruit average.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

Mark Mangino is not a proven coach.

His only head coaching position was here at KU. He only had a winning conference record once in his tenure (2007); he only had an 8+_win regular season once in his tenure (2007); he never won the division; and he never won the conference championship.

Snyder had a winning Big 12 conference record seven times. He had an 8+_win regular season ten times. He won the division four times and won the conference championship once.

Kirk 7 years, 6 months ago

He sure didn't end on that high note, Snyder. Maybe KSU should've forced him to resign?

Sorry, I didn't notice Snyder's KSU accomplishing jack this year.

DevilHawk 7 years, 6 months ago

KU financially couldn't afford to buy Mangino out of his contract, and he wasn't going to resign simply for the sake of KU. Hence forcing him to resign.

KURiggins 7 years, 6 months ago


Darrian Miller 4 stars RB Blue Springs, MO Blue Springs 5'10" 181 4 stars 5.8 10/25/10

hailtoku 7 years, 6 months ago

If you ever been to Oxford, Mississippi on gameday, you'd know he probably will have a blast.

gongs4ku 7 years, 6 months ago

Looks like it's going to be another one of those years...

Luckily, it's not football season for months. Right now our program can be ignored, sort of like a non-symptomatic disease. The pustules won't form till long after basketball season.

Larry Ewart 7 years, 6 months ago

This is to bad for the program. But, honestly I am not surprised. Ole Miss has had more success as of late and we definitely are looking at another year in which we will be at the bottom of the conference. I still go back to Turner's decision to bench Pick after the NDSU game. The kid won the starting job over months and weeks of practice and then thrown to the wolves over a play or two. Let me ask all of you, of the three QBs who is the better athlete? Can the other two make the switch to WR? Pick has been clocked at 4.5 in the 40. Turner has something againest him, I do not know what it is but to bury him this past year speaks lowly of Gill in my opinion. We really do not know if he could perform or not. As far as JUCO recruits go, Kansas has probably the best overall juco FB in the US. What about Butler's QB? Coffeyville? I am told that they can play. A few years back I watched DC juco qb Omar something who went to Troy St who took them to a couple of bowls. The guy was outstanding. Buy MM would not recruit him. I am worried about next year already.

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