Friday, November 20, 2009


What if KU stuns Texas?


In theory, Central Arkansas could have defeated No. 1 Kansas on Thursday night in Allen Fieldhouse. The Bears didn’t, losing 94-44, but since they played on the same basketball court under the same rules, a victory was within the realm of possibility.

Similarly, Hollywood siren Diane Lane could knock on the door of my hotel room door in Austin, Texas, tonight, only to have her heart broken when informed I’ve been married for 26 years. It’s possible Ms. Lane could desire to put a premium on personality at the expense of all else for a night, and again, in theory, it’s conceivable a man could have the discipline to slam the door in her face and call security. (More likely dial an ambulance in the throes of a shock-induced heart attack.)

Next, consider the possibility of an upset less monumental than any of the above scenarios: Walking-the-plank Kansas football coach Mark Mangino scratches the same talent for giving speeches he used to help raise cash for KU libraries and uses the same hand he used to write a $50,000 check for KU libraries to pat his players on their helmets and inspires them to an upset of third-ranked Texas.

What then? Do players and assistant coaches interviewed by internal investigator Lori Williams, associate athletic director/risk management, request a second audience with her to edit their answers? Would the results of the investigation be read any differently by athletic director Lew Perkins, who during his time as Mangino’s boss has raised his salary from $600,000 to $2.3 million?

It’s a gigantic reach to think Kansas could overachieve to the point it upsets the Longhorns in Austin, but not a great deal more of a stretch than to think the Jayhawks could have underachieved so badly five games in a row as to lose by an average margin of two touchdowns against so-so competition.

Quarterback Todd Reesing looked better last week in the Nebraska loss than he had in weeks, and he’s playing in his hometown for the first time. I’m just saying.

In what has been a bizarre year in KU sports, the football coach found himself, early in the football season, answering questions about his players’ fight with members of the basketball team. In Thursday’s postgame presser, basketball coach Bill Self answered questions about the university investigation of the football coach accused of deeply mean-spirited verbal abuse of his players.

I wondered: Does the investigation enter Self’s world?

“I’m not really in the know to what’s going on,” Self said. “I guess it could enter anyone’s world, if you’re in the coaching profession. I don’t really have a comment on it. I feel bad for the situation for everybody and certainly hope it works well for everybody, but I don’t know what’s going on.”

Self always has supported the football team, Mangino the basketball team.

“Mark and I have a good relationship,” Self said. “We talk whenever there are things going on. Right now, from my perspective, I don’t know if it’s the time to do that. He’s got a job right now, and his job is to try to beat Texas. When it slows down a little, I’m sure we’ll visit.”

Maybe, just maybe, they’ll chat about one of the biggest upsets in college football history.


Dirk Medema 12 years ago

It would just delay the inevitable. While technically it would make us bowl eligible, it wouldn't necessarily guarentee us a bowl game - see 2006. It would just make Arrowhead all the more important.

Ultimately, it's less about W's & L's, and more about the cummulative effect on the KUAC. It's not personal (athletics, or academics), it's business. Lew is running a corporation, and the cash cow (FB) of the company is drifting a bit too aimlessly to be economically viable in its current format. A corporate reorganization is on the horizon regardless.

Chuck Wagstaff 12 years ago

We need a new football coach and a new columnist.

Robert Brock 12 years ago

Is KU intent on seeking a nice, soft Terry Allen sort of coach? I liked Terry Allen but I thought that KU would never recover from his time as coach. Mangino brought toughness and discipline into the football program. I am not sure that Lew can do better.

Aaron Carpenter 12 years ago

Brock, I couldn't agree more. What I think is happening is that we have become so soft and pittaful as a society that now these young men expect to be coddled all day. Mangino may have said a few things that were out of line, but if you can't handle getting poked in the chese then get the heck outa here. Do you think that Bobby Bowden never grabbed a kids face mask. Every successful program has a dominant power coach, whom I gaurantee you is tougher than hell on his kids in an attempt to make them men. These KU players, past and present, need to man up and stop acting like spoiled children. Life is tough, and even unfair sometimes. Deal with it or your going to me misserable and pissed off your entire life. I, for one, vote for Mangino to stay, and even further hope this allows him to bring in even tougher, hard nosed kids. Rock Chalk save the Mangino Hawk.

Cimhawk 12 years ago

Ass. AD/ Risk Mgmt.......just the person that Sweet Lou controls to handle his internal investigation....what a joke.....Lew must go.........hold the line jwliddell......

Aaron Carpenter 12 years ago

Also, if Lew fires Mangino, ans subsequently hurts Mangino's feelings, then Lew has to go. Can't have double standards.

Jonathan Briles 12 years ago

Agreed jwliddell. Some of the fans here are ridiculous. I could go either way on Mangino though. I do not think that he should go yet, but I would not be totally upset if he did. I think that Mark is a great coach, recruiter, and strategist, but I just don't think he does a good job getting his players pumped and ready to play. This team does have the talent to atop the Big 12 north and possibly be 9-1 right now. We are not because we have been playing uninspired lackluster play. This team has not shown up on game day all year long. In 07 we had Mangino's great coaching mixed with the inspirational leadership of Aqib Talib, James McClinton, Derek Fine, and a few others. After we lost some of those inspirational players this team has not been the same. I just dont feel that Mangino knows how to pump up a team and get them ready emotionally for game day. I think that he deserves more time than this season but if it is not granted I do believe that the talent Mark has brought in will flourish with an inspirational coach. Whatever happens I wish the program the best and hope we can recover from what has been a very bad season on and off the field. Rock Chalk.

ohjayhawk 12 years ago

acsgreens - There is a line between beign a dominant power coach and being an abusive coach. I would think that looking some of the top programs of the day, would anyone say that Pete Carroll, Jim Tressel or even Mack Brown have anger issues? Looking at them, I'd say it is possible to be a successful coach without being a complete jerk about it. Besides, it sounds like this may go beyond the alleged verbal abuse. If there were injured players that were rushed back or punished to the point that it caused other injuries, then that is unacceptable. That's what the investigation will determine, how far things went, and we all need to let this take its course before we pass any final judgements, pro or con.

Eric Williams 12 years ago

2002: 2-10 (0-8), Non-con games against: UNLV, Missouri State, Bowling Green, Tulsa 2003: 6-6 (3-5), Non-con vs. Northwestern, UNLV, Wyoming, Jacksonville State 2003 Bowl: Lost to NC State 2004: 4-7 (2-6), Non-con vs. Tulsa, Toledo, Northwestern 2005: 6-5 (3-5), Non-con vs. Florida Atlantic, Appalachian State, Louisiana Tech 2005 Bowl: Win vs. Houston 2006: 6-6 (3-5), Non-con vs. Northwestern State, LA Monroe, Toledo, South Florida 2007: 11-1 (7-1), Non-con vs. Central Michigan, SE LA, Toledo, Florida International 2007 Bowl: Win vs. Virginia Tech 2008: 7-5 (4-4), Non-con vs. Florida International, LA Tech, South Florida, Sam Houston State 2008 Bowl: Win vs. Minnesota 2009: 5-5 (1-5), Non-con vs. Northern Colorado, UTEP, Duke, Southern Miss

Looking PURELY at stats, Mangino has bought his wins. A conference record of 23-39 while playing a total of 5 opponents from BCS conference in the non-con season: Northwestern (twice), South Florida (twice), Duke.

A record of 4-19 versus the South. Wins in 2003 (Baylor), 2007 (Baylor, A&M, Okie St.).

I understand where Mangino supporters on this are coming from. He took us to bowls consecutively that nobody thought we would make, but he can't get to the next level, and frankly, he might be afraid to coach against the big boys from other conferences.

I think Lew handled this horribly. He's trashing Mangino's entire life and career as a means to force him out and hire a new coach.

But if KU wants to become a 8-4 (5-3) team consistently, we need a new, younger, more energetic coach that recruits will gravitate towards.

Jim Sanders 12 years ago

We live in a society in sports where everyone wins as children. Everyone gets a trophy even if you never win a game. In fact, everyone gets the same one. There is no second place, there is no last place. Everyone gets a medal or trophy for participation. I coach a team and often, players are asking before we even play a game, are we going to get trophies at the end of the season.

I beleive that we have become soft as Americans and as a result, everyone feels entitled to what everyone else has. Even if I work hard and earn a nice salary, there are always folks wanting what I have for nothing. If I have a job that provides health insurance, there is always a group doing nothing that expects to have the same coverage. The same goes for sports. While I'm opposed of physical abuse, I think it is easy to pile on. Once someone comes forward, it is always easy to say, "that happened to me as well." Mark Mangino took over a program that had zero disapline. Under Terry Allen, we won very few games, but practice was a blast. I think that there is a happy medium, but I'd be disappointed if Mangino was terminated unless he was actually beating kids. I beleive that HCMM needs some counseling and maybe someone on the staff to keep him in order. If that doesn't work, then we can let him go. Kids need to toughen up. It is a hard cruel world out there. If I crawled home everytime someone slammed a door in my face, I too would be begging. Get up, dust yourself off and go kick some Longhorn butt. This is Division 1 football.

Steven Jackson 12 years ago

I wish those KU "Obama" administration TWITS would back off and let Mangino do his job!!! Football is not the forum for political correctness. A gruff word and a poke in the chest is nothing. These disgruntled players need to be thankful there not in the Marines playing for keeps.

James Hubin 12 years ago

Maybe Perkins could have handled it differently, however, it could have also been dragged out all summer long, then people would be saying why did Perkins take so long to bring this up and all the decent coaches are taken or unwilling to move.

How do all the Mangino supporters know that he never crossed a line when it comes to the treatment of his players? From what I have seen some of the things Mangino did, crossed the line. I don't know if it was enough to be fired, but nonetheless he crossed the line. If you want players to play like men, treat them like men. Which means you don't tell a player after a family member has been shot that he is gonna end up back with his homies so he can get shot. What does that have to do with being a tough football player? That's just a downright D bag with racial underpinnings.

No matter what Mangino should go simply based on his performance this season. I don't see how the big man is gonna recruit in texas against likes of Patterson at TCU and beat NU, or KSU, or MU yearly in our own conference, it sounds nice but its not gonna happen. Why don't people have more faith in our great University and believe that our AD can pull in good coach with all the changes that have taken place over the last five years.

James Hubin 12 years ago

I love how people jump on here comparing college football to the military, this from people that have likely participated in neither. Cause if they had they would understand one thing both sports and the military require a certain level of respect not shown by Mangino.

James Hubin 12 years ago

And if you think Mangino would stand a snowballs chance in hell surviving in the military you kidding yourself, why have the double standard between a coach and his players.

klineisanazi 12 years ago

what if monkeys fly out of my butt?

Steven Jackson 12 years ago

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James Hubin 12 years ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

James Hubin 12 years ago

Mangino has one huge win against VT, other than that, he has been a mediocre coach.

Steven Jackson 12 years ago

saidtoomuch (anonymous) says...

"I love how people jump on here comparing college football to the military, this from people that have likely participated in neither......."

That's right!!!! tactics and strategy have nothing to do with the military or football. Our current CIC certainly agrees with you.

James Hubin 12 years ago

Yep, the strategy is get a coach in here that can win, while being respected by his players.

Mike Morris 12 years ago

saidtoomuch...the reason I don't have faith in the AD or the University is because I've seen countless AD's come in...promise to resurrect the football program...and then it goes nowhere. We have a horrible track record for getting the right football coach at Kansas. Throughout our history, we've had a few blips on the radar, but nothing consistent.

I realize HCMM crossed the line several times, but he's brought the program to where people actually have to game plan for use, to where we don't give up 70 points on a routine basis, to where we actually believe we're going bowling every year...and most importantly...he WANTS to be at Kansas. It's not a stepping stone to him.

I'd just hate to see him go, but it's obvious Lew wants him out or this would have been handled internally. My University is embarrassing me right now because of how this has been handled. Not very professional IMHO.


James Hubin 12 years ago

It's not stepping stone for Mangino because he doesn't get offers to go to bigger programs. After the OB win Mangino didn't get a single offer. It seems to me this year that other teams have figured out how to game plan for the big guy, now their a little more worried about gameplanning for k-state, who has a coach that is well respected by his players, something that we will hopefully have soon.

I guess I just have more faith that we can do better than we have in the past and I was present during the TA era, so I know how bad it can get, but I was still either on the hill or in the stadium even during the TA era.

Greg Lux 12 years ago

Kansas Can beat Texas .. but first Texas will have to beat Texas a little bit.. We need some help from Texas to win. Not a lot just a little. But Kansas can win .. They must play very very well .. Todd must be allow to throw the ball down the field on third and 10 ( not the 2 yr passes they are calling for him ). The receiver must catch the balls that are catch-able. The defense must tackle well and not allow Texas to run through are defense. A win is available. It will need a team effort on both sides to get it down south. Go Hawks .. De-horn them longhorns..

Rock Chalk

Mike Morris 12 years ago

No you don't know how bad it can get...I was there for every game of the Bob Valesente era. TA is coach of the year compared to THAT train wreck.

But...regardless...the damage has been done. Recruits aren't going to come here and play for Mangino anyway. I'd rather they just get it over with now so we can move on. I hope Lew knows what he's doing. But if we don't improve under who ever he brings in...everyone will be calling for HIS head.


chanutejayhawk 12 years ago

I love everybody who supports Mangino on this one. Its football. Its a tough game. Its a man's game. If you can't take a little prodding, get out.

RckChalkJeff 12 years ago

Keegan, In theory, you could be a skinny, athletic, good looking guy. Nice what If about KU/Texas...but reality is neither will ever be true.

James Hubin 12 years ago

Well I think we should do more to support the players that chose to come play football at KU and have alienated themselves in order to create a better situation for future Jayhawk football players.

Mangino's fat angry arse can take the millions of dollars we have paid him and go live on a yacht for the rest of his life, where there is hopefully enough fish in sea to feed his twelve samwich eatin self.

Philip Bowman 12 years ago

Why is it that the Obama haters (RockChalk75) have to turn everything into politics? I am an Obama supporter; I support Coach Mangino and I am outraged at the conduct of Perkins. Perkins should be fired.

LAJayhawk 12 years ago

"Every successful program has a dominant power coach, whom I gaurantee you is tougher than hell on his kids in an attempt to make them men."

Pete Carroll coaches from a standpoint of building kids up instead of tearing them down. He doesn't even cuss at his kids and doesn't allow them to cuss either.

I've purposely avoided commenting on these articles, because I don't want to pick a side -- I don't have a side as we don't know all the information. But let's not get carried away and think the only way to coach football is to be verbally, personally and psychologically abusive. I'm not saying Mangino does that or that our players shouldn't be "tougher;" I'm simply saying there are other ways to run a winning program.

The winningest program of the last 10 years does not have a coach that comes close to any of that.

James Hubin 12 years ago

Fire Perkins and you will see KU return to mediocrity, Perkins has done as much to bring up KU football as Mangino (Perkins got us into the OB not Mangino), the changes Perkins has made will last longer than anything Mangino did.

Phoggin_Loud 12 years ago

RckChalkJeff should be investigated for his lewd, personal attacks. Great article, Tom. I don't know if Lew is trying to get rid of HCMM or if he is just doing his job by investigating a violent pattern of behavior. If he is leaning towards replacing HCMM, he must realize that Notre Dame and Michigan will have openings also. We don't want to go head-to-head with either school for a coach. Lew wants his new suites. Lew wants Championships. He won't get them hiring the 3rd best available coach. He needs to keep HCMM or let him go now so Lew can have the opportunity to get the guy the wants.

gongs4ku 12 years ago

This article was hilarious. I laughed out loud when I read the title.

Kevin Long 12 years ago

Most fans don't have any room to bitch about winning or losing. Most KU fans that I know get about as in to KU football as Mangino does weight watchers. Mangino has to go now no matter what the real story is. Too much damage has been done to his image to recover.

slowplay 12 years ago

chanutejayhawk (anonymous) says...

"I love everybody who supports Mangino on this one. Its football. Its a tough game. Its a man's game. If you can't take a little prodding, get out."

I'm as old school as anybody. I played HS and college ball in the late 60's, early 70's. Was it the right way? Probably not, but I've never chastised a coach for being tough on his players. That said, it's not difficult to cross that line from being "tough" to being abusive. I always respected my coaches because they were good people and helped me grow, not only as a football player but as a human being. I remained friends with them long after I quit playing.

This is more about Mangino's ability to run a major college program, to win games consistently, to put KU in the upper echelon of the Big 12. And to this extent he has failed. If you get paid $1M+ per year, you better have a resume to justify the salary. He doesn't. Most likely never will.

The very fact that this issue has received the attention it has is because of his lack of leadership. He apparently had no clue this was going to be a problem.

Steven Jackson 12 years ago

salthawk54 (anonymous) says... "Why is it that the Obama haters (RockChalk75) have to turn everything into politics? I am an Obama supporter; I support Coach Mangino and I am outraged at the conduct of Perkins. Perkins should be fired.".

I don't hate President Obama. I think he is incompetent and he doesn't support our troops but I don't hate him. I think he would be an excellent Alderman in Chicago.

I agree, Perkins should be FIRED!!!

Philip Bowman 12 years ago

The Perkins changes have been largely for the benefit of the fatcats that sit in the luxury boxes with their booze and finger food while the chumps below have to stand in line to use worn-out plumbing and stand in long lines to get a coke. Perkins has nothing to do with KU's success. He is about to ruin what Mangino has gotten started. If you want to go back to the Terry Allen days (nice guy but not a real coach) or Mason (never knew what to do on 4th down or even that it was 4th down) or Valesente (clueless about running a football program or coaching) then go ahead a fire Mangino.

You clowns who keep jabbering about a coach grabbing a player's facemask ought to go to YouTube and look at what happened. I was at the game and saw that hotdog stunt by Raimond Patterson. That was a teaching moment for Mangino and he gave good lesson right then and there. He is trying to make a team from the players and men from the players.

If you don't believe me, ask Reesing and Meyer.

escaped_labrat 12 years ago

Sticks and stones may break their bones but words and pokes won't hurt 'em. Seriously, grow a pair.

Phoggin_Loud 12 years ago

I am still trying to figure out what Lew Perkins has done for people to suggest he should be fired.

Parents came to him with concerns. He is investigating. He released a 3 sentence statement that he is investigating the football program. He never mentioned HCMM specifically. Since then, he has had no public comment.

I don't know if he could have handled it more professionally.

James Hubin 12 years ago

What has Reesing said? Reesing has been towing the line on this one. And if it is a racial thing, how does asking Reesing or Meier get to the bottom of anything?

Jeff Hargate 12 years ago

I think many posters on here have an over-inflated view of our football program. While the Mack Brown's and Pete Carroll's have different coaching philosphy's than Mark Mangino you have to realize the type of player they are bringing in. We are looking for a needle in a haystack while they get he pick of the litter. There is not much "coaching" done at these programs because they have athletes and can just let them play. Our guys (for the most part) need to be "coached". We must be assignment sound as we cannot make up for our mistakes with athletic ability. I do, however, think it is the coaches responsibility to understand if a kid can handle his "coaching" methods.

I doubt if anyone really knows what has been happening with Mangino and the players, but Lew is an idiot for going public. Our school has been in the media for the wrong reasons too much lately.

Philip Bowman 12 years ago

rockchalk75 (anonymous) But why must you politicize a sports issue? I guess you just can't help yourself. You claim not to hate the President but make belittling, silly remarks about him. I'm betting you never gave any thought to voting for Obama. You and the other detractors greeted him on the first day in office as someone not fit for it. I think it galled you to know he was so much smarter than the clown that we elected, twice! I guess he wasn't white enough.

James Hubin 12 years ago

I love how people on here cry and complain about players that are crying and complaining, cause it's football, it's a tough sport, they need to be men (even if they are not being treated like men by their coach). Well, if that's the case, that the whole world is now soft, then get the sand out, grow a pair and get over the possibility that we may lose a fat, abusive coach and move on.

babyjay1 12 years ago

First, I do think Mangino has stepped over the line. Yes, I realize that it could be disgruntled players, etc... but not sure I believe that this MANY players would be speaking out if there weren't some validity to it. And, although fb is a tough game, there still needs to be a level of respect. Mangino shot his own foot yesterday when he made the comment about players' parents not doing their job before the kids came to college. Sorry, not an acceptable statement. So, even if I thought MM was right in all this and behaved in an acceptable way, does anyone REALLY think he can survive this and continue to recruit and coach at KU? I don't .... I think too much mud has been slung and it's too late... I LOVE KU and only want what's best and this is just too damaging to the program. Also, what on earth does the military have to do with football? Maybe the discipline expected is similar but seriously????? No ones' life is on the line in fb - bad comparison!!!!

Steven Jackson 12 years ago

saidtoomuch (anonymous) says... "What has Reesing said? Reesing has been towing the line on this one. And if it is a racial thing, how does asking Reesing or Meier get to the bottom of anything?"

If Mangino were Black, would you still say: " Mangino's fat angry arse can take the millions of dollars we have paid him and go live on a yacht for the rest of his life, where there is hopefully enough fish in sea to feed his twelve samwich eatin self. "

The disgruntled players are thin skinned. Playing the race card can't change that.

d_prowess 12 years ago

People keep saying that KU must want a "soft" coach. No, they want a coach that will balance a firm hand, with respect for the players as people. They want someone that will scream in a guys face when he gets a celebration penalty, but will not bring up personal family issues that the kid had no control over. They want someone that will ride the player to be his best and thus the best for the team, not just to be give you what you want as a coach. That I think is the difference between some of the other coaches people are throwing out there and Mark Mangino. He lacks the respect aspect of his interactions with players and that is why I want a new coach.

Steve Brown 12 years ago

Beat Texas not only beat Texas but run up the score.

Now that the steam has been let out of the team, that has been bottled up in some of them for weeks, we will ROLL the next two games. Bet the farm.

The team has had the spirit choked out of them since conf. play, now that Lew has allowed them the team mtg. started a process, they have had their frustration addressed, they it is matter of when, not if.

They can now concentrate on execution.

Go Beat Texas.

Philip Bowman 12 years ago

saidtoomuch (anonymous) You must have missed Kerry's q & a with the press. What has perkins done? Assured the team and the coaches are so distracted with this crap that they can't concentrate on the games ahead. He is meddling and should be fired. But in the end I suppose the big money folks that perkins coddles will have their way. I guess they'll enjoy their luxury suites while watching Mason/Allen style football. You can forget post season play for a long time to come.

I sure hope no one starts whining to Perkins about Self saying a harsh word to a player. If they do we could be back to Dick Harp era basketball.

James Hubin 12 years ago

I would say the same thing no matter what color Mangino was. The fact remains that he is not getting the job done on the field, so yes, he can take a hike, well not very far of course before he gets too tired.

Phoggin_Loud 12 years ago

How is an AD investigating parent's concerns "meddling"? If your son complained to you and the AD did nothing, that would be grounds for termination. Not this. If you don't like Lew, fine. But, he has done nothing to warrent his firing. Give me a break.

Carter Patterson 12 years ago

We win the OB, but then we've headed straight down hill for two straight seasons. Out of 12 teams, we are no higher than 10th. We can't seem to keep good coaches. As a BCS school, we hired a coach to get us to the top half in the conference. Despite, 2007, we have not gotten to where we should be...the top 4 in the conference. I wonder how many kids want to come to KU now. I wonder how many asst. Coaches want to come to KU now. I wish Coach all the best. I think he did a great job. However, our program is bigger than one man (even bigger than HCMM). I don't see how he survives this.

Steven Jackson 12 years ago

babyjay1 (anonymous) says...

"Also, what on earth does the military have to do with football? Maybe the discipline expected is similar but seriously????? No ones' life is on the line in fb - bad comparison!!!!"

The comparison I was making was obvious. Both arenas require tactics and strategy to succeed. I never said that football was war. I'm amazed that a football enthusiast as yourself is not able to see the metaphor realistically.

James Hubin 12 years ago

Lew is one of the best AD's in the country, Mangino's coaching and recruiting skills place him in the middle of the Big Twelve. What sense would it make to fire one of the best AD's in the country to keep a middle of the road coach.

Yes, Perkin's does cater to the richies, but until any of us are willing to donate big time money, that is the postion he has to take if you truly want to become a BCS caliber school.

James Hubin 12 years ago

It appears that alot of you on here are republicans you, if anyone, should understand that money is what builds programs.

Phoggin_Loud 12 years ago

Here's the larger question to Mr. Keegan's article: What if KU wins out? I know it's a stretch, but what if this distraction actually did lift a weight off of the player's shoulders? It's obvious that they have underperformed this year. What if this is their break-out game? All of a sudden, KU is 7-5, heading to it's 3rd consecutive Bowl Game and it's 5th in 8 seasons with HCMM at the helm. Pop quiz: What would you do???

James Hubin 12 years ago

Look at what comes out in the investigation and go from there.

guscornhawk 12 years ago

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James Hubin 12 years ago

How are these players going to perform for a coach that some of them feel is abusive and others support, some of the players feel he should be out as head coach and some like him as head coach. It would be great but, I don't see how the players can perform to their potential under the current circumstances.

Philip Bowman 12 years ago

So, Phoggin_Loud (anonymous) if a player's parents complain about a coach, the AD has to start and investigation and make a public announcement? If that is true, can you imagine how many such investigations and announcements we'd have in the country? Timing is everything and I think Perkins' announcement has everything to do with his desire to fire the coach. He waited until we had a bad season (Mangino's tough love is and has not been a secret) and used this as an excuse.

Steven Jackson 12 years ago

saidtoomuch (anonymous) says...

"Look at what comes out in the investigation and go from there."

I agree. Evidence not hearsay. If Mangino really told our player to go back to the hood with his homies and drunk father, he should be fired and made penniless through multiple lawsuits.

James Hubin 12 years ago

I know what I am saying may be wrong, however, not as wrong as the things Mangino said to his own players that he supposedly loves. The point is Mangino is a big boy (very big, sorry couldn't help it) and gets paid millions of dollars, he can take my comments. These kids get what, a scholly, and are expected to put up with abusive language from their coach in order to show that they are tough football players on the field. I am not going to go as far as to say racism, however, I do feel that Mangino targeted the less fortunate players and said things to them that he didn't say to other players, that may have had a better up bringings.

Phoggin_Loud 12 years ago

salthawk, You may be right. Lew may want to fire HCMM. If so, Lew has to weigh the ND & Michigan possible openings & make a quick move. With that said, Lew is in a lose/lose situation. He has to investigate. If he announces it, he is attacked. If he doesn't announce it, then fires HCMM, he would be attacked for not announcing it. My point is that Lew has handled it in the most professional manner by making a quick public statement then letting the investigation run it's course. I'm sure he will have another statement once the investigation is over. If people dislike Lew for other reasons, that's fine. But I believe he has handled this investigation very professionally.

Philip Bowman 12 years ago

saidtoomuch: Check out this story about the players who are coming out of the carpet to complain about Mangino.

They aren't "less fortunate" they are losers and showed it when they played at KU. Note, the winners are supporting Mangino. I think the whiners are just that; they couldn't cut it at KU. Especially Crawford who came to KU with a big mouth and no game. That yo-yo is now putting out crap about Sharp in an effort to defame the Coach.

And it amuses me the press keeps focusing on the Raimond Patterson incident. If that guy didn't deserve to be chewed out, no one ever has. Oh, gee, Coach used the "F"word. I'm sure that is what hurt Raimond's feelings--he had never heard it from anyone before!

guscornhawk 12 years ago

Oops! You did say to much. Don't go there man. This has nothing to do with race and you are throwing out a lot of speculation. In fact, most of the comments on here are based purely on speculation, not many facts. What do I know that is fact? I have friends who stand on the sidelines at the NU games here in Lincoln where I live. The Pelini bros. drop the F bomb on players, refs, and each other the entire game. In fact, HCBo told a player he was a Co@# sucker a few weeks back with my friend standing right there. If we think this is isolated at KU and not happening at the "big" schools, we're only fooling ourselves. Once again, not defending those comments or HCMM if he crossed the line, just that we need to open our eyes a little bit.

areyouserious 12 years ago

what if the sun doesnt come up??? WTF? This might go down as the biggest joke of an article in the history of this site.

Texas will pound us......... probably in the range of 38-7.

98% of those players dislike Mangino even though they wont tell the press. Why would they want to go down there and try to win for his sorry a**. Don't you think they would have tried to win against OU, NEB, KSU, CU? NOW Texas??? gimme a frickin break.

"you people make me wanna puke"

James Hubin 12 years ago

Keep in mind that the investigation is not complete.

Tyson Travis 12 years ago

Thanks, Coach Mangino, for some exciting wins like the OB win over VT, breaking the drought against NU and KSU, couple of nice wins against MU. Your team beat the spread most of the time in '07, but has been average since. They have the potential to beat UT, but I don't think it's gonna happen, much as I'd like it to. I have no problem with your poking a finger in the chest of a recalcitrant player in practice and trying to encourage him to do better, or dressing down a player for showboating during a TD, but I have a more signigicant issue. You are plainly morbidly obese, haven't played football since high school, and haven't changed any since you arrived. No military leader looks like this. I feel awkward around my Arkansas friends realizing you as the Big Pumpkin are not really a good public image for the University of Kansas. Perkins is doing fine as an administrator, Self is also doing well, instead of a firing, let them come together behind closed doors and agree on a contract clause specifying weight-loss goals. HCMM could do a staple job and easily lose 100 lbs. before next season, tone down his anger a bit, and easily be a more effective coach. He's very talented, I hate to see him let go and have a couple more 3-9 seasons before we get going again. Mark, I've been afraid you were going to drop in your tracks from the big one for several years, do yourself a favor and drop some of the surplus lbs., mellow out a little, and become a more effective coach, plus live longer.

Philip Bowman 12 years ago

Phoggin, you have to ask yourself what really top-notch coach would want to take a job under a guy like Perkins that does this to you when you have a down season? I suppose its too late to reverse the course Perkins has decided on (to pretend he ever had any other intent than to fire MM is naive at best) so we'll end up with a guy who has a good record at a small-time program that is hoping to get to the big time and willing to risk a Perkins. Given Perkins condition and his lack of loyalty to programs it seems likely he'll also be gone before too long (no soon enough for me).

James Hubin 12 years ago

Almost every football coach drops the f bomb while poking a player in the chest. This is about more than that. Wake or stay in your shell and pretend that coach Mangino's behavior is okay. But if a coach said some of things that are coming out that Mangino said his players to my son while playing football, I would have a hard time not punching him square in his round face.

Phoggin_Loud 12 years ago

Ok salthawk, we'll just disagree.
I do enjoy reading your comments and you may be correct. I just think Lew is following up on parent's complaints.
I don't know if he has a desire to get rid of HCMM or not. Time will tell.

Armen Kurdian 12 years ago

I could develop telikinetic powers, but it's unlikely. I'd love to see KU beat the 'Horns tomorrow. Of course, that would mean that the SEC would have a terrific chance to win the national title. I'd love to see UT knock either 'Bama's or Florida's block off.

Tribehawk 12 years ago

salthawk, when you say the "winners" are supporting Mangino, am I to assume that you classify Joe Mortensen, Mike Rivera, and Jon Cornish as "losers"?

Typically, abusive authority figures make some of their subordinates pets, and they make others their dogs. You don't expect to see the favored ones come out and speak up against the authority figure because they could lose their privilaged status--even after the fact they're not likely to say anything because being in the favored position creates a psychologically powerful connection to the authority figure. It feels good to be stroked by someone with nearly impossible standards because it makes you think that you were able to meet those standards. Turning around and attacking the authority means attacking yourself.

Hawk1969 12 years ago

I don't see KU winning again this season. Too many distractions and controversey surrounds the team now.

I think it's too late for MM. Perkins is more than likely already starting the search for his guy. And, if I were a coach out there I'd jump at the opportunity to work for Perkins.

I hope this all gets resolved soon because this is a cancer spreading fast and will have residual effects on recruiting. KU HAD a very good recruiting class coming in for next season, I believe the class is ranked 39th in the nation and recruiting is not over yet. I have a feeling that some of those kids will decommit and go elsewhere. Sad, sad, sad...

slowplay 12 years ago

"Phoggin, you have to ask yourself what really top-notch coach would want to take a job under a guy like Perkins that does this to you when you have a down season?"

Ask coach Self. Especially after his back to back first round exits. This is not about 1 down season. This is about the entire program and Mangino's ability to be a successful coach in the Big 12.

I can think of a million + reasons a top notch coach would come here and work for Lew.

jayhawkox 12 years ago

HAHAHA, so, football is a tough sport and players should learn to deal with mental and emotional abuse but no football coach in the country would want to coach for a guy who will pay you 2.3 million dollars, build you a fantastic facility, and build you a new set of luxury boxes to help you recruit the best athletes you can to win games because if you lose your team and lose 5 games in a row he follows up on player claims of abuse? You must be kdding. We're paying the, what?, fifteenth highest salary in the nation and you mean to tell me that we're getting the fifteenth best job of coaching in the country? Yes, the program is in better shape than when Mangino left, but that's just as much to do with Lew's commitment as it is Mangino's ability to terrify players into trying harder. Bottom line, there is no black and white like 'you either abuse players or you lose' in this situation. Plenty of coaches don't feel the need to do what Mangino did and they recruit better athletes who play harder for them as a result. Regardless of how the situation plays out from here Mangino will most likely be fired, it will be UNBELIEVABLY difficult for him to get a HC job anywhere after all that has come to light, and KU will continue to build from here because we have the clout to recruit a better coach than Mangino at this point. And if you don't believe that, just take note of one thing. To reference a certain embattled head coach: "It's about dollar signs". Mangino is as good as fired, and KU will be better for it.

Rick Arnoldy 12 years ago

saidtoomuch - who talked about the military until you complained about people bringing up the military?

Steve Brown 12 years ago

ohioburg: who talked about the military you ask:

under the previous day story line: not- so- gentle reign:

KUbsee69 reports: "but this is just like George Patton slapping the cowards again."

LightHawk also references a military movie: about Col. Jessop, Jack Nicholson, and who ordered the "code red" narrative. It's not the military yet a movie about leadership, team building and going over the line, coverups and denial.

does that help you?

Ryan Shelton 12 years ago

Midway through the season it was far more conceivable for us to beat Texas than it would have been to be mired in a five-game losing streak. But here we are, and there Texas sits, waiting to be knocked off. We might be huge 'dogs Saturday with the streak and Pokegate, but in a crazy season such as this, poetic justice would be done if we shock Texas.

Bill Kackley 12 years ago

Saidtoomuch, your name is appropiate. I have played football, been in the military, etc. and although I didn't have any coaches that would get in my face (I wish they had, I would have been a better player) I guarantee the discipline in the military can be pretty damn rough. I have always stated that thou the military would have been a poor career for me, I thank god I spent 3 years in the Army. It helped me become a better person and if MM's dicipline is helping the players grow up, which I think it probably is, then more power to him. I am just sick as to what Lew has done to our football program. He needs to be fired and I will give up the 5 hour drive one way and my season tickets until he is.

ginger2015 12 years ago

saidtoomuch: You obviously never went through Marine Corp boot camp.

"98% of those players dislike Mangino even though they wont tell the press"

But they'll tell you? Have you polled the football team?

Prophet 12 years ago

This has been a debacle! You may say that hindsight is 20-20 but the AD is getting paid to nip these problems in the bud. Maybe he seen this going on for years but the positive side of the Football program and the investments being made to seats and suites caused him to delay the actions being taken until this 1-7 season and allegations gave him the opportunity to act. Like the commercial LP too light! MM too heavy! The Chancellor needs to clean house AD down through the Football Program. The next thing you should be looking for is the assistant coaches leaving this sinking ship of a football team if the AD and Chancellor allow MM to stay. I recommend the Chancellor bring in an outside adviser to review the information available and make recommendations for KU.

jhokfan 12 years ago

fire mangino = mistake fire lew = bigger mistake

James Hubin 12 years ago

Outside of bootcamp, soldiers deserve nothing but respect from higher ranks, espescially between enlisted soldiers and officers. Are we to expect that these kids, recruits should endure 4 years of bootcamp with Mangino as drill sargent and if they can't take it they are pansies?

If Mangino had a blow up in a game or during two a days and said or did something to a player that he shouldn't have then everything would be fine right now, but this is an ongoing pattern of abuse from the Big Guy to some of these kids and it's about time someone had a big enough pair to finally say something.

ShazzyD 12 years ago

Dagger wrote "It's not personal (athletics, or academics), it's business. Lew is running a corporation, and the cash cow (FB) of the company is drifting a bit too aimlessly to be economically viable in its current format. A corporate reorganization is on the horizon regardless."

You've got to be kidding me. This year we've had better attendance, more televised games, and sold more merchandise than any year in probably the last 20 years at KU. This makes your point completely invalid.

TexasJayhawk78 12 years ago

Hello Neighbors,

I hear Mr. Rogers may be available for the cuddlier and more adorable flag football we are headed toward.

TexasJayhawk78 12 years ago

Maybe instead of pads and helmets we could issue big soft pillows and our team could go out on the field and have a pillow fight. Just think of the money we could save and all the fans that would love to buy that T Shirt.

squawkhawk 12 years ago

Let me put this in perspective. I'm a K-State fan and I can tell you that most K-State fans want Mangino to stay. Why? Because he is an average coach who has had one good season in his 8 year tenure at KU. If you think this is not the case then KU has accepted mediocrity as the standard for their football team. Given KU's history in football the past 20 years I can understand that. However, Mangino could only bring KU to the mountain. Someone else will have to take you to the top. For those of you that say "yeah but we beat KSU and NU the past couple of years", consider this. This is the worst Big 12 north division since its inception and Ron Prince literally ran KSU into the ground. Even today our talent level is high division I AA at best. This makes KU one of the best of the worst the past few years. Yeah, that's something to be proud of, right? This said, I believe shady Lew has screwed Mangino. He has pulled out all stops to get rid of Mangino and what he has done, in my opinion, is dispicable. Lew may be a big fund raiser but his actions show that he is not the type of person that I would want representing my school at that or any level.

scourge74 12 years ago

I remember a few malcontented players that were dismissed from one of Larry Brown's teams. I remember reading of a few malcontents that were dismissed from one of Roy's teams. Mean old Larry and Roy. Must have been crazy mean, those two. If Mangenius was some big old POS then I think Stoops might not have taken him to O.U and made him the offensive co-ordinator. Grow up folks. THE REAL STORY MIGHT BE THE VENDETTA THAT DOLPH SIMONS HAS FOR LEW PERKINS....cmon LJW.....give us the real story..............

Cimhawk 12 years ago

hey've said about enough that we've all figured need to just shutup...........geez man give it a're exposing your stupidity.......

s6u6r6f 12 years ago

MM should go; MM should stay. Perkins should go; Perkins should stay. Football coaches should hug babies; football coaches should eat babies. While we may argue and disagree about much, at least this is true: KU football is finally getting some great press this season! Yeah, we're all over ESPN now! Tell us what you thing, Romey. Give us the insight, Woody! I just love seeing that Jayhawk on the colored TV! Thanks, everyone!

pjrockchalk 12 years ago

All these softies need to grow a pair and realize that football coaches can be a little rough on their players sometimes...I played fb in highschool and I heard coaches say some horrible things but I kept on playing cuz that was my job...I never went to anyone outside the team to complain about coaches hurting my feelings...if I did I would've gotten much worse from my friends...screw the new-age nancy who can't take an ass-chewing! Thanks to them ku fb is about to be thrown back to the stone-age..

jgh 12 years ago

I've generally been in favor of Perkins, but this is the second time that he has royally ****ed us (the first was the timing of the Arrowhead agreement--had the '07 game been in Lawrence, it probably would've been a victory, and we a) would have that elusive north title and b) wouldn't have to feel guilt for being selected to the OB over Missouri).

By allowing this "investigation" to go public, he's created a lose-lose situation for the program. If he can't justify a termination, then the image of our program/coaching stuff remains tarnished and recruiting suffers. If Mangino is fired, it sets a bad precedent, because all that the national public knows is that Wright was "poked" and a couple players received verbal abuse similar to a hundred other coaches throughout the country. And, of course, we lose a solid coach and probably some of the current scholarship players and recruits.

Roy Scherff 12 years ago

Now where oh where have i put my Woody Hayes poster? Gotta find my poster of Woody. Nothing will help now like having my Woody Hayes poster up for me to see. Its kinda reassuring that all is in order. I LIKE MANGINO!

Geekinout 12 years ago

Can't be afraid to keep trying to improve your school. Pretty sure Glen Mason still has a better record at KU than Mangino and if you take away the 2007 year we didn't play anyone worthy than he's way below an overall winning record. Don't understand the Mangino love fest. I think it's because Terry "Game Ball" Allen left KU in such shambles. Funny how everyone thinks this is all about mental toughness and atttitude, because if this is the case this is what happens when a coach doesn't live up to expectations. It's part of coaching and you cut ties. Just make sure Clint Bowen is either demoted or released also.

Dan Harris 12 years ago

jimhawks- Agree 100% with your post

actorman 12 years ago

I got tired after reading the first half of the comments so there are plenty that I haven't seen, but I find it remarkable that so many people continue to use time-worn, cliche-ridden phrases about football being tough and a man's game to justify someone who is extremely abusive and is truly despised by virtually every player on the team. (And if anyone questions me about this, let's just say that I have inside information from several former players, including some from recent teams. And yes, MM has put constant pressure on injured players to come back to quickly, even players that have made huge contributions to the program.)

Is football supposed to be tough? Yes. Does it need a large amount of discipline? Yes. Does that mean that a coach should make fun of someone's brother who died a few days ago or make fun of someone's alcoholic parents to show how "tough" he can be. Absolutely not!!!!! To all of these imbeciles who say MM is just being a coach, I'd like to see how you'd feel about someone picking out the most horrible or tragic moment(s) in your life and rubbing your face in it mercilessly -- especially someone who is supposed to be leading and inspiring you to become a better person on and off the field. Why is it so difficult for some people to comprehend that a person can be tough while at the same time actually respecting the people under him. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to do both. (And why does it not surprise me that the same people bitching about the players being soft are Obama haters. It's the typical Republican position: things are either one way or the other, there's no in-between.)

And in case anyone is really that unclear about what MM has been doing, remember that he got banned from going to his son's high school football games because he intimidated an official after a game. This is obviously a man who has serious problems controlling his anger and has a serious lack of respect for other people. Combine that with some of the worst (and most bizarre) decisions I've ever seen in games, and it's time for him to go.

I think I've been in denial for a long time because I was so happy to see KU recover from the long, dark days of Terry Allen and his ilk and get to a respectable level -- and of course the Orange Bowl season was incredible. Because of that, I didn't take seriously all the things I'd heard for years about MM. But at this point I feel kind of dirty rooting for the Jayhawks. I look forward to the day when KU has a coach that can win and also be worth rooting for.

babyjay1 12 years ago

All a ruse... none of this has actually happened. KU is trying to lull Texas into a passive state, thinking we are so messed up we won't be able to concentrate on the game. They're laughing, thinking they'll roll. Heck, Colt won't even suit up... THEN, we roll into Texas and explode on their unsuspecting drooping horns. KU 45 UT 7 :)

Yakihawk 12 years ago

Current events notwithstanding, it would be nice if our coach looked more like a coach, and less like a pie eating contest champion!

troutsee 12 years ago

Lew and MM have brought Jayhawk football out of the middle ages. However, in my opinion, Lew has pulled all the right strings. As others have pointed out, this is a business and you have to have money and facilities to compete in college football in this century. Lew has made sure that that happens at KU. Even though MM has contributed greatly to the success of the KU football program, he does not appear to have what it takes to take us to the next level. Keeping MM at this point would be a huge mistake. We need to fire Mangino and move on. We will be fine. In fact, I predict we will be better and that we hang onto most of our recruits. We will have a good team next year.

Those that complain about losing favored "citizen" status because they did not have enough William's points to maintain their privileged seats, welcome to the 21st century. If you opt out, there are many who will opt in.

Lew, keep up the good work.

tbwesters 12 years ago

Seriously...? I've always loved the defense of poor judgement and behavior by leaders/parents as a necessary evil. Seriously, nothing wrong with discipline at all - nothing at all. Be as uncompromising as you want to be. Be consistent with expectations. But if you can't control your own temper/emotions - then you are not a leader. You may get a temporary short-lived response from those you lead, but it is simply that - temporary and short-lived. Now, nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes, but if we make them consistently - let's not defend the behavior and actions as a necessary evil. After all, couldn't that be the defense the Coach Mangino's players would use for their behavior as well? It's also quite obvious that the apologists sympathizing with Coach do so because they'd be doing the same thing in his shoes. If he's not guilty, fine - done, let's hope the truth prevails. If he is guilty, I wonder if the AD or Univ. President will poke him in the chest, throw a tantrum and cuss as MM? I mean, many of the posters here would agree that it would be appropriate and that's part of becoming a "eh hem" man? How evolved.....grow up - literally.

jayhawkboogeyman 12 years ago

Who cares if KU stuns Texas? The fact that it would be totally stunning if we win is the very problem with the team right now. We have underachieved so poorly this year that beating Texas wouldn't mean a thing. Still no chance at the North crown. No chance at a winning record, in the conference or on the season. Still in last place in our division. Not moving up in the BCS rankings or positioning for a better bowl. It would probably get us into a worthless, though welcome. bowl game.

Coming into the year, everyone expected to go to Texas and at least have a good shot at winning. The fact that we have virtually no chance in this game, no momentum at all, proves what a disaster the season has been.

And regarding the Mangino investigation - it doesn't make a bit of difference.

LionHawkS 12 years ago

I have a better chance of getting Megan Fox in my bed than KU's chances of beating Texas...

Ian Brown 12 years ago

I suspect the final score will be somewhere around 63-10 Texas.. Thankfully it's basketball season. Who gives a damn about the football team? They blow worse than that girl I met a few New Years Eve's ago.

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