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Monday, November 16, 2009

Morris twins Tiger targets

Marcus, Markieff once were committed to Memphis

Kansas University forwards Marcus Morris, left, and Markieff Morris made the extra effort to hit the weights in the offseason. They have added muscle, they’re more aggressive, and they’re dunking with regularity, parts of their games that lacked at times last year.

Kansas University forwards Marcus Morris, left, and Markieff Morris made the extra effort to hit the weights in the offseason. They have added muscle, they’re more aggressive, and they’re dunking with regularity, parts of their games that lacked at times last year.

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Marcus Morris is thankful Tuesday’s Kansas University-Memphis basketball game will be played at a neutral site in St. Louis, not the Tigers’ 21,165-seat FedEx Forum.

“I know they’d boo us. That’s why it’s not there. I’m happy it’s not there,” Morris said of Memphis.

He and twin brother Markieff were the toast of Tennessee in November of 2006 when the seniors at Philadelphia Prep Charter High signed letters of intent with coach John Calipari’s Memphis program.

Their popularity faded when they asked for — and were granted — releases from their letters in September of 2007.

After re-opening their recruitment, they chose KU over Villanova and St. John’s in October of ’07.

“If it wasn’t at a neutral site, I think it should be here because we did beat them in the championship (game),” Marcus Morris said of the 2008 NCAA title contest, played when the twins were at APEX Academies, a prep school in New Jersey.

The title game rematch between the No. 1-ranked Jayhawks and the unranked Tigers is 9 p.m. Tuesday at Scottrade Center.

“It seems like a long time ago,” Marcus Morris said of the time he and Markieff were committed to the Tigers. “I feel I’m getting a lot older quick. I haven’t talked to any of those guys (on Memphis’ team). I had a good relationship with a few of them.

“I knew Jeff Robinson. He transferred to Seton Hall (last January). I was real close to Derek Kellogg (former Memphis assistant), who is at UMass and beat us last year. I talked to him not too long after that game,” Marcus added.

Markieff indicated he knows “Kemp and Mack and Pierre. I think that’s it.”

He was referring to Willie Kemp, Doneal Mack and Pierre Henderson-Niles, coincidentally the only three Tigers who played in the ’08 title game, won by KU, 75-68 in overtime.

“They are nice guys, down-to-earth,” Markieff added.

Marcus Morris said the twins first were attracted to Memphis because of personable coach John Calipari and his system.

Calipari last spring moved on to take over Kentucky’s program.

“I wish coach Cal was there so I could see him. I did get along with coach Cal well,” Marcus Morris said. “The style of play (dribble drive motion offense) was the best thing for me. I don’t think I’d ever seen anybody play like that in college. It’s, ‘You take your man. You take your man.’ That style excites players coming out of high school.”

It’s an offense that stresses attacking the rim and/or shooting wide-open jumpers.

“I liked him (Calipari) and the assistant coaches, too. We just felt Kansas was the best for us,” Markieff Morris said.

The twins never really have elaborated on what soured them on Memphis. It has been speculated that the two were concerned when Memphis began recruiting 6-10 Angel Garcia, who played the same position.

Calipari first defused the situation when he made a trip from Memphis to Philly to talk to the twins in July of ’07. They reaffirmed their commitment to Memphis at the time, but decommitted for good shortly after.

“We weren’t sure about a lot of stuff,” Markieff Morris said. “Me, my brother and mom … we weren’t all into it. We had to find somewhere that was like home.”

“We were not 100 percent sure,” Marcus noted. “I didn’t have a better relationship with Cal than I did with coach (Bill) Self and the other coaches. I wouldn’t trade Kansas for any place.”

Markieff said he didn’t feel any extra incentive playing Memphis.

“I play my same game every game. I look at them like any other team,” he said.

Pastner a stellar recruiter: First-year Memphis coach Josh Pastner is off to a good start in recruiting. He’s signed No. 8 Jelan Kendrick (6-6, Marietta, Ga.); No. 11-ranked Will Barton (6-6, Baltimore); No. 12 Joe Jackson (5-11, Memphis); and No. 66 Chris Crawford (6-4, Memphis).

Knight update: Brandon Knight, a 6-3 guard from Pine Crest High in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., visited Florida over the weekend. His dad, Efrem, told Rivals.com that he does not expect his son to sign before making an official visit to Miami of Florida.

Knight, who is Rivals.com’s No. 1-rated player, has visited KU, Kentucky, UConn and Florida.

“We don’t have a visit to Miami-FL set yet, but we know it’s going to happen,” Efren told Rivals.com, noting “signing early probably isn’t an option.”

Comments

100 12 years ago

From a fan's perspective, this has always been about Self & Kansas versus Calipari & whatever team Cal happens to be with at the time.

So proud to have Marcus, Markieff, CJ, Xavier, Thomas Robinson, Elijah Johnson, Tyshawn Taylor & the all the others Self has brought to Wilt Chamberlain Palace away from John Calipari's town-to-town revolving circus of a glass basement -- glad Self continues to win the recruiting battle against the only coach in America who somehow has free tickets to leave any town he chooses without punishment while his school loses entire seasons & ex-players are shamed into never speaking to the press again about how they got into college to begin with (Dozier & Rose to name a couple).

I guess technically the only recent recruit Self has lost directly to Cal was Wall (besides Orton, as Orton technically signed with Gillespie) which will probably be just fine in the end -- KU didn't have a "true need" for a OAD point guard like him this year & furthermore I've a couple sites hashing out smoke from sparks of a supposed ongoing NCAA investigation into his amazing rise he had during his multiple SAT tests over a two year span, his fourth one essentially turning a fifth grader into a rocket scientist.

All that aside, looking forward to Tuesday's game against Cal's old glass basement -- looks like Pastner (a legit recruiter, no Calipari stuff going on with him), is doing quite well. It's nice someone could take over & help get Memphis' fanbase back off the carpet after what Calipari did to them -- absolutely shameful. Pastner seems like a good person, to boot, from the interviews I've seen. He should be a great fit for Memphis.

ParisHawk 12 years ago

With respect, I wish we would just leave John Wall alone. Right now the only thing the NCAA has on him is $800 he has to pay back, plus sit two games. Darnell Jackson had to pay back $5000 and sit 9 games, and we just got off probation. Not comparing the individuals, it's simply that our house has a little glass in it as well so let's drop the stones.

Granted that Calipari needs talent for his offense, but conversely his offense attracts talent; Marcus Morris just said so on this site. It may be a gamble, but it's a plausible one. Then he takes his talented recruits and makes them play defense.

Interesting that four of our players had dealings with Calipari. Could they know more than we do?

John Brown 12 years ago

Morris Bros are lucky not to be with Calipari but instead are gaining wisdom from an NBA Pro, Danny Manning. Bigs at that time didn't know what a prize that was until people saw what a difference 1 year made with Cole Aldrich. Danny has done an awesome job developing these guys for Self to make them Champions!

jcsmith 12 years ago

Yea. They do know more than we do. They know exactly what kind of 'under the table' deals Calimari makes with his recruits. Something every single one of us have pondered at one time or another, guranteed.

Joe Baker 12 years ago

“It seems like a long time ago,” Marcus Morris said of the time he and Markieff were committed to the Tigers. “I feel I’m getting a lot older quick. I haven’t talked to any of those guys (on Memphis’ team). I had a good relationship with a few of them.

I know the feeling Mc! I know the feeling. The older you get, the faster time passes.

63Jayhawk 12 years ago

Nice Jason King interview of Roy Williams on Rivals.com. You guys might enjoy Roy's comments on recruiting and John Wall.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-williamsqa111609&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

KEITHMILES05 12 years ago

Who is this roy williams you speak of?

Martin Rosenblum 12 years ago

Pastner is a solid guy. He's grown up in the bball biz interested heavily in recruiting. Coaching seems to be where the uncertainty lies. Lute Olsen was a great mentor to Pastner and surely he is a student of the game. We'll see how much of a strategist he is. Interesting, he refused any local endorcements and other distractions for his first year as head coach in Memphis. Trying to avoid any comparisons to Cal, or, he wants to see if he will be effective as coach before he puts himself on billboards, tv commercials, etc.

Let's wish him well, but not against us. Funny how he is getting recruits without using the Acme Snake Oil approach to the same school and without the aid of Worldwide Wes.

I'm off to St. Louis in search of the three B's - Basketball...Barbecue...(what is that third thing that Stl is famous for, hmmm..) oh yeah..Beer!

Look for me there, I'll be the one with the KU shirt on. If you yell out, "Hey Memhawk", we can hook up at the game.

NebraskaJayhawk 12 years ago

“I wish coach Cal was there so I could see him. I did get along with coach Cal well,” Marcus Morris said. “The style of play (dribble drive motion offense) was the best thing for me. I don’t think I’d ever seen anybody play like that in college. It’s, ‘You take your man. You take your man.’ That style excites players coming out of high school.”

Street ball.

justanotherfan 12 years ago

drgnslyr,

In the higher levels of basketball, regardless of what type of offense you run, if you don't have the personnel, your offense doesn't work. Take Texas Tech for instance. They run a basic motion set, which most basketball purists would consider to be a great traditional offense. Unfortunately for Texas Tech, they also don't have very much talent, so they will probably finish in the bottom third of the Big XII. You could have KU or Kentucky or UNC or anybody else with a lot of talent run their offense and be pretty effective. It's not about the scheme so much as the personnel. Athletes make any system work better.

Although I will say, the DDM is most similar to the basic motion. As I have said on here countless times (mostly falling on deaf ears), the DDM is a much more strict offense than most realize, because you absolutely MUST maintain proper spacing for it to be effective. Any breakdown in discipline in spacing will bring the defenders too close together and cut off the kick out and driving lanes.

The floor MUST remain spread for the DDM to work, just like in the regular motion offense. The only difference is that the DDM asks guys to drive off the dribble, rather than relying on post ups. It was created in high school by a school that did not have any big men. Their coach, seeing the personnel he had, decided to take advantage of his multiple guards and their ball handling skills by switching from a basic motion to the DDM.

Joel Hood 12 years ago

63Jayhawk,

I think it is more interesting what UNCle Roy did NOT say about Wall. Clearly, there were some issues with Wall that he wanted no part of. With Calisleazy, there are no bad issues only bad rules to circumvent.

100 12 years ago

ParisHawk, Nice comment & I agree in theory with what you're saying.

However.

Camby... Dozier... Rose...

Pat Forde & a couple others are the only national writers I've seen truly calling Cal on the craziness of what happened last spring. His decision to leave Memphis wasn't about running to a "great program". His decision was about running from an investigation (& making millions of dollars more out of it because he ran before he was busted, which still blows my mind that Memphis didn't blow his cover & how pathetic his current employer was by withholding the truth from their fans).

To those on other websites who say he "didn't know" about the NCAA trying to get Rose's attention regarding his SAT results (for 6 months) -- all I can say is... give me a break.

Cal knows handlers. I don't care what anyone else says on this. Cal knows what he can get away with -- I guarantee you handlers are payed on a bare minimum of 2 recruits a year. Cal is not stupid either -- he doesn't really have an offense, so he needs players. Players=money for one person --> Cal.

As for the developments with Wall look at sites that talk college hoops -- this is the same stuff that was being said about Rose & sure enough the NCAA months later told us they had been investigating him for months.

I'm not saying it's "true" or "not". But I agree with another poster up there -- when you see Wall in an interview, yes he seems like a nice young man, as Rose did. A team player, as was Rose. But (unlike Harrison Barnes, what a great role model) Wall does not speak like a young man that could pass an SAT test.

I saw a coach quoted on this a year ago. He said in so many words when a coach is recruiting a player he can generally tell when talking to him if he has a shot to even get into college.

Go look at some sites where they discuss Wall -- Carolina fans especially have a lot to say about this issue. They are very specific on when he took the tests (including a PSAT test which according to them he failed with flying colors). Additionally they are pretty adamant that his AAU coach is much more than that.

Go read elsewhere -- somebody, somehow knew about the Rose investigation. From all the smoke I've seen from Carolina (where Wall went to high school), somebody there knows something.

And does this really surprise us? The amount of time a "straight to NBA skills kid" like that has to put into his game at an early age (read some articles on this), never planning on attending college, why would he have even thought about college? It's only past 12 years old that he might have realized in some part he had to develop some study skills.

Again, I'm not saying "I know" this or that. I'm just saying all of this is out there swirling, just like it was for Rose. And, like Rose, Wall never has anything to say about it -- if he was smart (& if he really did qualify on his own) he would diffuse these Carolina rumors. But he has said nothing.

MemphisMachine 12 years ago

Sounds like the kid almost regret not joining the team of dreams.....Memphis Tigers! See you on Tuesday.

Joel Hood 12 years ago

MM,

Yep, here is a great clip of Honest John Calipari on a recruiting trip. The dribble drive is one seductive allure - it's all about giving you the rock and the riches - no worry about playing D or taking the SAT! It's all very sexy...

http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/pinocchio/honest-john

...with no substance.

rockchalk80 12 years ago

I really like this...

“...Marcus noted. “I didn’t have a better relationship with Cal than I did with coach (Bill) Self and the other coaches. I wouldn’t trade Kansas for any place.”

jaybate 12 years ago

Monday with a Taste for Barbequed Memphis Tiger:

} Unlike most here, I will be very surprised if Josh Pastner proves a "good guy" over time, though he appears bright and ambitious and well connected in a recruiting sense.

Pastner's dad, Hal, was apparently knee deep in the AAU hustle in Houston, Texas, a city that regularly stocks the larders of dozens of D1 schools. Hal Pastner was so high on son Josh's coaching abilities, even at an early age, that he made young Josh Pastner an AAU head coach at 16. Young Josh quickly coached future NBAers Emeka Okafor (UConn), T.J. Ford (UT), and Lawrence Roberts (MissState) before going to Arizona as a walk-on collegian. Is this Horatio Algier stuff, or what?

Alas, Josh never played much, but in just 2 1/2 years became a college assistant coach at Arizona.

Are we really supposed to believe that young Josh was granted a walk-on spot at an out-of-state school, which was then an ascendant basketball power, just because he had the heart of Jordan Jueneman, the IQ of Dollar Bill Bradley and was the size of a smerf? Or was there some underlying relationship that enabled his alliance with Lute Olson?

It seems at least remotely possible that Lute took Josh to get Daddy Hal Pastner to shovel Houston's AAU players to Tucson, or as a favor to Hal for some players previously shovelled to Lute. I don't know about you, but this scenario does not fill me with a sense of wholesomeness regarding Josh Pastner and his meteoric rise in basketball. There is nothing illegal here, just something kind of greasy.

Further, it is perhaps equally remarkable that young Josh was able to graduate from UA, a school academically comparable to KU, in but 2 1/2 years with a BA in Family Studies, according to his Wikipedia page. Josh then became a graduate assistant at perhaps 20 years of age to one of the game's then high profile coaches. Talk about fast tracking and good fortune!

Josh Pastner's Wikipedia page says Josh took as many as 33 hours one semester to accomplish his early graduation. Maybe this guy should start up a program at Cal Tech instead of Memphis, eh?

jaybate 12 years ago

To put Josh's manifold accomplishments at an early age into perspective requires some comparisons.

For example, I took 25 hours one semester at KU and it taxed me and I was no dummy, and I did not have to practice with a D1 team. Maybe Josh quit the team and I don't know it.

For another compare and contrast example, consider Jeremy Case.

Jeremey was the son of a Williams and a Self friend and coach--Win Case, just as Josh was the son of a coach, too. Jeremy was an out of state walk on at KU just as Josh was at UA. Jeremy was an equally hard worker and probably a much better practice player than Josh Pastner ever dreamed of being. Certainly Jere had the better trifecta. Both were walk-on bench warmers on national champions. Jeremy had to go four years to graduate; Josh only 2 1/2. Perhaps Jere was just not as bright as Josh. Jeremy did get to be a Self graduate assistant for a season. But then Jeremy did not get to climb Bill Self's KU assistant coaching ladder with rapidity, as Josh climbed Lute's. Jeremy quickly encountered something called reality. To go from graduate assistant, to assistant coach, Jeremy had to go to Southwest Missouri State U and Dickie Nutt. Do you see the difference? Jeremy went with a coach on the down hill slide trying to jump start a backwater program, where as Josh got to become an assistant at a major program for a high profile coach still ascendant. I would say that in this day and age it is a bit rare for this to happen. The only real differences I can see between Jeremy Case's and Josh Pastner's cases are Josh's shorter graduation time and Hal Pastner and his Houston AAU recruiting connections. But perhaps I am too cynical.

Do you suppose college coaches are really that impressed with graduating in 2 1/2 years?

Regardless: early graduated and still seemingly soaked wet behind the auditory canals, Josh Pastner became the graduate assistant, and then assistant of Lute Olson--one of the great cry babies in the game's history (a game and a history full of many cry babies by the way), also one of the game's most odious teachers of cheap-shotting when down more than ten ever witnessed in basketball history, and a paramount head case, who never contributed anything of note in Xs and Os to advancing the way the game is played.

jaybate 12 years ago

Without putting too fine of a point on things, Josh Pastner rose meteorically as the assistant to a man who achieved what he achieved at Long Beach State, Iowa, and 'Zona with "recruiting." IMHO, Lute's teams never played above their talent. They just won, when they had a ton of talent. In his defense, Lute could get players to perform at their best, when they needed it, so he was/is not without merit, as a coach. Hopefully, Josh learned this trick from Lute.

It is worth noting in this digression that Lute was schooled in Big Ten muscle ball while head coaching at Iowa. Lute apparently left Iowa for the Pac 10, because he apparently guessed right that muscle ball would work in the then finesse Pac 10, and because he knew the SoCal recruiting scene a lot better than he knew same in Iowa's archipeligo of 50-100k population river towns where Iowa recruiting then flourished.

Now, as homage to Lute for teaching his players to cheap-shot opponents, let me cheap-shot him back and say: the only thing classy about Lute Olson was his platinum hair do, and it may easily have come largely from a Grecian Formula bottle. Pastner learned early from a master jerk.

Now back to Josh.

When Lute crossed over his own event horizon and experienced his own psychological black hole, Josh Pastner moved on, as they say.

Did the Child Prodigy Josh Pastner seek out a great coach utterly free of previous scandal and on-going recruiting investigations? A coach of a premier program in a premier league with whom to share his "recruiting" gifts? A great strategic genius to learn from?

Not exactly.

Josh next assisted the savagely moussed John Calipari, at Memphis, in Conference USA, which means Pastner probably had heard of the NCAA investigations into the recruiting of Rose and Dozier et al before even taking the job. Could Pastner have been so smart that he knew Cal would be bailing soon and that he could be around to "save" the program? Who knows?

Pastner is renowned for his "recruiting" and perhaps may have been involved in some "recruiting" that was eventually investigated,as well. It might also be asked whether Pastner assisted in the culmination of what appears in retrospect to have been an outlaw program at Memphis that had to forfeit an entire season for playing players who apparently could not meet entrance requirements by taking their own SATs.

jaybate 12 years ago

So: after learning from one of the game's great jerks in Lute Olson, Josh Pastner can at least be said to have joined a program repeatedly under investigation and to have matured, at least some, as an assistant under a coach with a record of leaving two programs just before they ran into significant NCAA violations and very recently a forfeited season.

And as a first year head coach, Josh has, remarkably, given the most trying circumstances, landed a near bumper crop of recruits in the midst of Calipari's departure, ensuing recruiting scandals, forfeits and Josh being on the bridge with Captain Calipari for all of the above. Maybe Josh is just one heck of a guy who got hoodwinked by Coach Cal. Maybe he is a master at communicating his innocence to recruits' parents. Maybe it is just that darned offense that is so appealing. :-)

And lest we forget, among Pastner's first acts as head coach at Memphis, Josh offered AAU exec and father of Xavier, Carl Henry, a job possibly to keep CJ and land Xavier.

There will be a strong tendency to say stones and glass houses don't mix, when talking about Josh Pastner.

Why?

Well, Bill Self is the son of a high school basketball coach just as Josh was the son of a highschool and AAU coach. But there is quite a difference between being a high school coach in Self's father's era and being an AAU coach in Houston in Hal's recruiting era.

Bill Self coached with Eddie Sutton, a man who was at times a practicing drunk and left a program (UK) with near death penalty violations, though Sutton, like John Calipari, for example, denied wrong doing and was never punished for what happened on his watch. But Bill Self never assisted Eddie at UK and never associated with Eddie until Eddie had reputedly cleaned up his act.

Bill Self hired Ronnie Chalmers apparently in order to land Mario Chalmers at KU, and Chalmers departed as soon as Mario did. Here alone, Josh Pastner holds a small, but unintentional edge over Bill Self. Josh also offered a job to Carl Henry, but Carl, or perhaps Carl at his wife's insistence, turned Josh down.

Bill Self recruits many of the same players that John Calipari and Josh Pastner do. Bill Self and Calipari/Pastner badly wanted Derek Rose, the Morris Twins, Thomas Robinson, Xavier Henry, and John Wall.

Bill Self landed some of those and John Calipari did, too. Now Pastner has landed Joe Jackson, a fellow Self wanted.

jaybate 12 years ago

But the players Bill Self signed apparently took their own SATs. Some of Calipari's did not. It remains to be seen whether Pastner's will take their own SATs, or not.

Again, though all three men have to swim in the same waters, there are some profound differences between Self and Calipari/Pastner. Let's reiterate and even expand a bit.

Self's dad was a suburban high school basketball coach, not a highschool coach and an AAU meat marketeer in Houston, like Pastner's dad apparently was.

Bill Self was a legitimate Division I basketball player given a scholie. He played for and started at Okie State for a respected, but unsuccessful Iba disciple--Paul Hansen. Self was not a walk-on for a jerk like Lute Olson.

Self was not an out-of-state walk-on perhaps fast-tracked through a college academic and coaching process in order to become an assistant at an atypically early age, as Pastner appears possibly to have been.

Self spent a year with Larry Brown, doing KU laundry. Larry has never been noted as one of the college game's leading ethicists on recruiting. Self apparently saw early how to bend recruiting rules, but then so to did Calipari (who also washed KU laundry for Larry a couple years later when Larry bailed and the investigations came home to roost) And Pastner? Pastner learned from Cal himself in a brief exposure, I suppose (but who can say for sure?).

But the biggest difference is that Self, both as an assistant and as a head coach, has been through several rebuilding programs at several schools, where cheating might have been extremely tempting, and has manifested no pattern of recruiting violations either while he was on the job, or in the wake of his departures.

jaybate 12 years ago

Bill Self assisted with Leonard Hamilton, a man who has never run a stellar program, but who also has not been widely suspected as a cheater either (so far as I can recall, which is not that far), and Eddie Sutton, one of the game's greatest strategic innovators and 800-game winners, who after sinking in an 86 proof recruiting scandal in Lexington, KY, cleaned up his bottle and recruiting acts by the time Bill Self was associated with him, and ran a reputedly clean program at OSU, when Self was associated with him.

And, yet again, as a head coach, Bill Self has left no snail trail of scum anywhere. Infractions that cost Self scholies at KU occurred on Roy William's watch. Roy, usually a man of keen memory, suddenly lost some acuity, when the NCAA came calling on KU for what he had done and the NCAA no doubt peeled an eye toward Self, when it had an excuse. The NCAA found nothing on Self.

Self has shown no signs of breaking rules at ORU, Tulsa, Illinois, or KU, where he was head coach, nor of participating in anything untoward as an assistant.

Pastner may prove be a great guy, but you can't tell it by the fellows he has associated himself with so far.

And his bumper crop of recruits isn't encouraging either.

Consider the Tom Crean analogy to see why.

Tom Crean is reputedly a very straight shooter and a very good recruiter. He beat Bill Self for Tyshawn Taylor until Tom decided to save Indiana from Kelvin Sampson's cell phone addiction. Despite Crean's continuing struggles to rehab Indiana, Crean remains among a select few that I would want considered for the KU job, if Bill Self lost his mind and went to the pros. But note that Tom Crean did not have a bumper crop of recruits his first year at Indiana, and he was not even on the scene, when all the excrement hit the fan at Indiana with Kelvin Sampson, as was Pastner present with Cal at Memphis at fertilizer time.

How has Josh landed all these recruits in perhaps even less favorable circumstances?

Time will tell, I supose.

jaybate 12 years ago

Note: All the above posts are mere opining.

100 12 years ago

Jaybate,

The more you talk it is interesting that a man who hasn't coached a game of high school or college basketball has (already) signed the #4, the #10 & the #11 recruits in the country for next year.

Truly amazing.

hawk82 12 years ago

The Roy article is kinda neat in that he cannot stop making his points by conjuring up Kirk, Nick, Adonis, Aaron, etc etc. Loved it!

BTW, I'm guessing he and Jason King go way back, since Jason had the K.U. beat for the KC Star before joining Yahoo. He still lives in Olathe, down the way from me.

Dirk Medema 12 years ago

Jaybate - Are you sure Jeremy was a walk-on. I thought he was one of only 2 recruits his year.

Joel Hood 12 years ago

A couple observations about previously reported facts:

Jeremy Case was not a walk-on - he was on scholarship. He was just the only one of the last four UNCle Roy recruits to stick around. I'm not sure why it was claimed Jeremy Case walked-on - just because he played so little?

Carl Henry denied that Memphis offered him a job. I suppose one could claim he lied about the offer, but I've not seen any credible source on this story. All kinds to Henry rumors were swirling around last spring. I could be wrong though.

Also, Ronnie Chalmers was hired well after Mario signed his LOI. Everyone involved denied that this had anything to do with Mario coming to KU. I'm not so naive to assume there was no agreement, but seriously, you have to assume everyone (Bill, Ronnie, Mario, Lew, & Hemenway) was lying and colluding about this kind of arrangement in order for it to be true. It is possible that: a.) KU needed a DBO.
b.) Ronnie was more than qualified for the job.
c.) Ronnie would have moved down to the lower 48 to watch Mario play, no matter where he went.
d.) When Mario moved on, Ronnie’s motivation for staying at KU had left. e.) Ronnie no longer needed the money.
The purported truth is not unreasonable. But, I suppose the idea of secretive collusion is sexier.

drgnslyr has a good point. Wouldn’t a blog on this site make more sense for your prose?

Joel Hood 12 years ago

correction

Mario gave his verbal in May 2003. He would have signed the LOI a few months later. His verbal came well before Ronnie was made DBO.

jaybate 12 years ago

dagger108,

Thanks for the heads up on my mistake. I stand corrected on Jeremy Case. If you are right, and it appears that several others recall Case had a ride; then, apparently, I goofed. I picked the wrong "Case" for an example.

Now, what about Josh Pastner? Do you think he's a straight shooter like Self, a guy who climbed up the ladder based on merit and ability, or do you think he's been fast-tracked by his dad into the big-time based on Hal's Houston recruiting connections? Or do you have another theory entirely about how a guy who has never head coached a high school, or college basketball team, suddenly being able to land a bundle of top recruits his first year for a program that has been under investigation for awhile, forfeitted its best season, and so on?

jaybate 12 years ago

jayhawkerjoel,

You have to be a flat earther, right? :-)

You defend bad writing.

You suggest Mario and has dad, Ronnie, coming to KU were some how independent events.

What would be good for a laugh today?

I am very keen on the theory of evolution, especially as it has grown to embrace not only Darwin's natural selection (predator selection on prey), but strategies of adaptation (competition and cooperation in game space) in evolutionary biology.

Now, you argue the for Creationism. :-)

This I am going to enjoy, especially as I stand ready with Ockham's Razor. ;-)

jaybate 12 years ago

drgnslayr,

You are very kind.

But as an older man to a younger man, I must say that what you suggest I do is called "work creation." :-)

At my age, I am trying to create "recreation." :-)

Further, I only really care about KU basketball and things related to it. I admit, what I find related to it can extend quite far afield some days, but always The Legacy is the deep thread connecting what I write.

Still, as most worthwhile ideas spring from those under 40, some might even say under 30, I will think on it.

But I could only seriously consider it, if you and some others here were to join me in TheBasketballCooperative.com. ;-)

But even thinking about it makes me feel less recreated.

Let us, therefore, dwell exclusively on the Memphis game, so that we all may seize the moment for what is truly worth.

Rock Chalk!

jaybate 12 years ago

100,

Always, I can depend on you staying at the nexus.

And, honestly, it has been some of your previous comments about Memphis and Pastner's recruiting successes that spurred my remarks.

Rock Chalk.

Joel Hood 12 years ago

jabate,

Nope – I did not imply that they were independent events. There is a vast difference between causal relationships and correlation relationships. You claim there is a causal relationship. I claim that it is plausible that the relationship is correlational as opposed to causal. I posit that we can only know it is a correlational relationship since no other school jumped up and cried foul after Ronnie’s hiring. But, neither you nor I are in a position to actually test the hypothesis. So, it looks like we are stuck in limbo, with you calling me names again.

Joel Hood 12 years ago

(cont.)

I actually love the premise of Ockham’s Razor, but it is too frequently used inappropriately and by obnoxious people wanting to sound smarter than everyone.

First, the rule is best applied to phenomenon associated with large numbers. For example, is alien abduction a psychological phenomenon or do little green men really abduct people? In general, the simplest answer is that it is a psychological phenomenon that can be traced in different forms throughout history. But, that doesn’t preclude any single event from being an actual case of alien abduction.

Here’s another example – do people use Ockham’s Razor in their debates because it is a good argument of logic or are they just obnoxious people trying to impress other people they feel are less intelligent? In general, people frequently use it because they are obnoxious. But, that does not mean you specifically, jabate, are an obnoxious person.

In general, when a player’s dad gets a job at the school the player attends, one can assume the player may not have gone there unless ole Dad got the job. That seems to be the simplest answer to the question as it applies to the general, but not necessarily the specific. In Mario’s case, his dad did not need the job. He was retired military and he already had a job. He was earning reasonable money while pulling in a good pension. Mario could have gone to any school in the lower 48 and Ronnie could have moved nearby, as money was not an issue. The argument that Mario only came to KU so that Ronnie could get a job also implies that Mario would have preferred to attend another school. I have not heard anyone argue that he almost went somewhere else. If you have information about that, I’d love to hear it.

Cheers & RCJH.

jaybate 12 years ago

Ah poor jayhawkerjoel,

My, my, you do have a syndrome about backing losing arguments.

Caught with your intellectual knickers down, you resort to praying squid ink about Ronnie and the Razor.

Tsk, tsk, my boy. You can do better. You must.

Theory (or hypothesis if you prefer): To ensure landing Mario, Self hired Mario's dad, Ronnie, and to save face, announced the hiring shortly after signing Mario.

Regarding the Razor, it has many killer apps, as do many tools.

But the one any respectable scientist would use it for is as a guide in the choice between competing theories.

To wit: why resort to the implied and explicit complexity of a supernatural being called a god to explain the origin of the universe, when an explosion would do just as well?

Or if you wish to argue both, why both, include god, when an explosion would do just as well?

Regarding Ronnie, why resort to so many ifs, whys, and conditions, when "Self hired Ronnie to ice Mario" would do just as well.

Tell me you are a lawyer and not a scientist. In law, you would be just one more inept operator in a field full of them. But in science, you could do some real harm. :-)

Joel Hood 12 years ago

Then again, the general often does apply to the specific.

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