Wednesday, November 11, 2009

Gorillas’ Iba floored by Jayhawks

Kansas guard Tyrel Reed drives past Pittsburg State guard Brandon Coleman (5) during the first half Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009 at Allen Fieldhouse.

Kansas guard Tyrel Reed drives past Pittsburg State guard Brandon Coleman (5) during the first half Tuesday, Nov. 10, 2009 at Allen Fieldhouse.


Kansas routs Pitt. State in final exhibition

The Kansas men's basketball team wrapped up exhibition play by crushing the Pittsburg State Gorillas, 103-45. Freshman forward Thomas Robinson scored 17 points for KU.

Audio clips

2009 KU-Pitt State men's basketball

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Prior to the opening tipoff of Kansas University’s exhibition basketball game against Pittsburg State on Tuesday night at Allen Fieldhouse, KU coach Bill Self presented Pitt State coach Gene Iba with a one-foot-square piece of the Allen Fieldhouse floor that was used from 1992 through 2005.

The gift was in recognition of Iba’s announcement that this would be the final season of his 30-year coaching career, a stint that has included stops at Baylor, Houston Baptist and Pitt State.

That generosity was the only thing Self and the Jayhawks gave Iba all night as KU cruised to a 103-45 victory.

Despite the lopsided loss, Iba, the nephew of legendary Oklahoma State coach Henry Iba, had nothing but good things to say about the Jayhawks.

“I can only try to express what that meant,” Iba said. “The people of KU have been nothing but tremendously gracious to us, and that thing tonight, my family, in particular, will remember for a long time.”

The game itself was one his players would just as soon forget. Despite hanging around for the first eight minutes, the Gorillas saw an early 16-11 deficit deteriorate into a 55-21 mountain of a setback by halftime. The Jayhawks doubled up the Gorillas (48-24) in the second half to set the final margin at 58 points. On Sunday, Pitt State fell, 89-53, at Kansas State, where Iba received a wooden basketball on a pedestal.

“You want to go out and have a good showing and play your best, but this was kind of embarrassing,” said PSU senior Spencer Magana, who tied with Rodney Grace to lead the Gorillas with 11 points. “But I think just seeing this kind of pressure defense is definitely going to help us in the long run. They’re very tall, very athletic, they’re long, they’re quick in all spots. They’re just really, really good. It’s enjoyable for any basketball player to come in here. It’s an awesome place to play.”

Iba said the Jayhawks hurt his team most in two areas. Midway through the first half, Kansas began to trap the high-post pick, which led to 33 PSU turnovers. And throughout the night, the bigger, stronger Jayhawks owned the rebounding edge.

“That really hurt us, and that broke the game open,” Iba said.

Iba’s connection to Kansas goes well beyond coaching against the Jayhawks a few times. When he was 8 years old, while his father was the head coach at the University of Tulsa, Iba remembers regular visits to his home from legendary KU coach Phog Allen.

“He was a chiropractor,” Iba recalled of Allen. “And back then they didn’t have trainers, so Dr. Allen came to the house to show my dad how to tape and how to do things. They didn’t have medical dummies back then, so they used me instead.”

Pittsburg State (0-2 in exhibition play) will wrap up its preseason schedule Saturday at UNLV. The Gorillas will open the regular season Nov. 17 at home against Sterling College.


Joel Hood 10 years, 2 months ago

Coach Iba was interviewd before the game on Jayhawk Radio Network. He said that he not only wanted the game to help his team, but was hopeful that they could help KU become a better team too. Gene Iba is a class act. He also talked about going to the 1957 KU/UNC championship game and the 1988 Championship game in KC. He was nothing but class as he talked fondly of Larry, Danny, Roy, & Self.

Thanks for 15 years in Kansas and best of luck this year and beyond.

E4KUJHawks 10 years, 2 months ago

This article was a good read. Congrats to Coach Iba, and best wishes to him & his family.

Nice job LJW.

hawkva 10 years, 2 months ago

One correction to Coach Iba's statement: I believe that Dr. Allen was an osteopathic physician, not a chiropractor.

Hawk in Virginia

Joel Hood 10 years, 2 months ago


My father-in-law used to go to Doc Allen for "adjustments." I think it is fair to say that the type of therapy Phog Allen practiced would today be considered more chiropractic. He worked muscles and manipulated joints. Nothing invasive and no prescriptions (that I know of.) Even though he was an Osteopath, I think the misstatement is very understandable.

JayhawkPiller82 10 years, 2 months ago

As healthcare professionals, we pharmacists are very familiar with Doctors of all kinds. Osteopathic physicians prescribe and treat patients just like MD's do. However Osteopath’s are trained in manipulation -aka chiropractic adjustments. Back in the day it was a significant part of their practice's. I do not know the nature of Doc Allen's practice but it was obvious he was well respected and sought out by not just Basketball enthusiasts....RCJH

hawkva 10 years, 2 months ago

jayhawkerjoel and JayhawkPiller82:

My remarks were directed at the journalistic accuracy of M. Tait's note. As an allopathic physician ( BA and MD at KU), I have worked with many osteopathic physicians and a few chiropractic physicians. I have a reasonable understanding of the two disciplines and I give them their due. I have made no remarks which should be interpreted as criticisms or as dismissals of the two disciplines. However, I maintain there was a error made in the article: Dr. Allen was an osteopathic physician who performed osteopathic manipulations and it is not strictly correct to denote his degree as a chiropractic one.

Hawk in Virginia

Joel Hood 10 years, 2 months ago

No worries Dr. hawkva, I wasn't being critical in my observations either – just opining on why I didn’t think it was necessary for M. Tait to correct Gene Iba’s assertion.

BTW doc - just how does one distinguish between osteopathic manipulation and chiropractic manipulation?

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

The Placebo of Thursday Taken Until the Cure of Friday:

There are two apparent legacies--one knowledge-based and one professional-society based--leading to the enduring, but diminishing distinction between "medical doctors" and "doctors of osteopathy."

Doctorate of Osteopathy (DO) and Medical Doctorate started as separate degrees from separate schools, if I recall correctly. Though MDs have for some time been far more prevalent, some DO schools still issue DOs to this day.

DOs, so far as I know, operate under the same state medical licensing requirements as MDs. So: today, whether you go to a DO, or an MD, you are in theory getting effectively the same service, at least in a minimal sense, from both. DO and MD are more signifiers of specialization, rather than fundamental difference in philosophy and methodology.

DOs do manipulations. MDs mostly don't. But they both practice non-manipulative medicine pretty much the same. An MD may have a greater increment of medical training and skill in certain kinds of medicine, because part of his medical training has not been taken up with learning manipulation. Go to them for a catch in your neck, and the DO will probably pop it, whereas the MD will tell you to take ibuprofens, or anti-inflams, and use a hot pad. But they will both diagnose and treat your strep throat, measles, or H1N1, about the same, if they are both competant.

Go to a chiropractor, on the other hand, for the catch in your neck, or the strep throat, measles, cold, flu, or H1N1, and you might get a suggestion to see and MD/DO, plus a manipulation, and/or some dietary advice, and/or a high colonic, etc., because the catch in your neck, or even your bugs, may be thought to derive from stress that can stem from life style, diet, levels of bacteria in the GI tract, environmental insults from toxins, and so on, and might be treated in all, or some combination of the ways described.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

From the start, DOs included training in manipulation (local massage and popping bone joints mostly) with differential diagnoses and treatment regimes based in empirically verifiable medical pathologies and treatments involving surgeries, drugs, etc. They embraced what most today would call "modern (or allopathic, or scientific) medicine" as practiced by medical doctors, plus the manipulation and massage practiced by, say, Chiropractors.

To my knowledge, DO curriculum has never widely embraced either conventional homeopathic approaches to healing and pain management (colonics, use of herbs and other substances for treating conditions with, or without valid, empirically verified efficacies, etc.), or the philosophy underpinning their use.

(Note: I am not against MDs, DOs, or Chiropractors practicing healing to attain pain management and/or wellness, so long as they honestly inform their patients of strengths, weaknesses, risks, and conflicts of interest associated with their methods, and of the statistically valid, empirically verified efficacies of their treatments. I am a strong proponent of scientifically based diagnosis and treatment under the methods used by medical doctors, because I have scientific training and knowledge that persuades me this way (i.e., I thought this way before I later married an MD), but I would not hesitate to go to one of the other branches of healing professionals, if I could not get sufficient benefit from a medical doctor. And I would not hesitate to say that the medicine practiced by medical doctors is fraught with strengths, weaknesses, risks, and conflicts of interest. Likewise, I would not hesitate to say the same of DOs and Chiropractors. Buyer beware of any professional in any field in a down economy, especially anyone of the above healing fields getting handsomely paid for treatments that have not yet been vindicated in validly controlled studies.)

To my knowledge, MDs never widely embraced manipulation in formal training, as DOs were already in that business and as MDs became acutely interested in science's capacity to develop readily verifiable surgical and pharmacological treatments. MDs bet on drugs and surgery producing a bigger bump in healing that other approaches and they apparently bet right. But that does not mean other approaches offer no worthy incremental benefits.

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Regardless, apparently, it became early on increasingly rare that double blind research could empirically verify the efficacy of the healing effects of manipulation. Since MDs had little or no legacy of manipulation as part of their business dynamic and part of their philosophical legacy, it was easy for them to remain aloof from manipulation and massage, and delegate that out to allied fields (that is not directly competitive fields) of physical therapy and occupational therapy.

DOs legacy of manipulation and massage meant DOs had sunk costs in manipulation and massage, related revenues from same, and quite a lot of satisfied patients. Not surprisingly, DOs found ways to justify continuation of manipulation and massage both in practice and in education and training.

IMHO, persons with persistent joint pain, and related inflammation, tend to get pleasure and a sense of relief from massage that temporarily alters inflammation's effects, and they experience some psychological relief from the experience of another person embracing them in unusual ways and giving them positionings, jerks and twists that trigger audible pops in joints and a stimulus that very often at least interrupts their pattern of chronic pain stimulation from their injury with another kind of stimulus.

Note and Aside: when I played sports, I used a DO frequently, a guy who claimed to have been trained by Phog Allen. I found the manipulations to work great at first, and then after repeated visits, to offer decreasing benefit, until I finally quit going at all. I just suffered. What worked the best was to quit playing sports. When I did, I had no more need for manipulations. :-)

DOs doing manipulations, whatever the actual organic healing effects of such, are thus making use of the very potent, and empirically verified placebo effect of any kind of intervention with any kind of treatment.

MDs make use of it, too, though they don't talk about it much.

So do Chiropractors, though they don't talk about it much either.

Placebo don't get no respect. No doc love proclaimin' he be a mofo placebo. Ever'body takin' placebo fo' granted. Placebo ain't billable. No 99XXX office visit and procedure under Medicare for diagnosis and placebo treatment of yo self. No Chiro proudly proclaimin' his herbs and pollens from rain forests be mofo placebos. Be nobody dunkin' placebos in my grille and sayin' see? This $@#% works! They just be beastin' on me allopathically, or homeopathically, and sayin' don't forget to pay the piper, man....

jaybate 10 years, 2 months ago

Professional healers--be they MDs, DOs, or Chiropractors--are like anyone else in the sense that they like to feel some mastery at their craft and they like to think that their masterful actions are what cause, or at least precipitate desirable effects. So far, mastery of placebo effect does not convey much professional self esteem in the healing professions. Placebo effect to professional healers is kind of like the unintended bank shot is to a great shooter. It was luck, and anyone can have luck, so there is nothing about luck to brag about or take pride in. In turn, professional healers don't talk much about the increment of healing from placebo that occurs, simply because the patient came in and healed himself a little by giving himself the placebo effect of a paid, professional healer, whatever his persuasion.

Valid, empirically verified research conducted at major universities and published in leading journals has long proven the unknown placebo effect (i.e., giving a person a sugar pill, while telling them it has an active agent in it). This kind of placebo effect works in relieving symptoms apparently by triggering an up-tick in the operation of the body's various self-maintenance systems, and by the brain simply assuming a state of increased sense of wellness to reduce cognitive dissonance of taking pills and not healing.

But more recently, research also proves that a known placebo effect works; that is, persons feel better after taking placebos, even when they are told they are taking a placebo that has no active agent!

Viva the placebo.

So: whether you go to a medical doctor, or an osteopath, or a chiropractor, you will tend to feel some relief simply from going and from them doing anything at all for you, even just saying you will get better.

They could give you a manipulation of something that is not remotely involved with your actual illness, an empty capsule that has no active agent, or a high colonic for a hang nail, and you would tend to feel better, and your organic illness/condition (whether it exists or not) might even improve a little, because the placebo provided would tend to have some positive benefit of triggering your body's and mind's self healing systems, and its desire to reduce cognitive dissonance.

Of course, the increment of improvement provided by the placebo treatment might be very small and might not cure, or sufficiently manage a symptomized condition destined to kill you.

For that, IMHO, you better get a diagnosis based in scientific fact and a treatment based in scientific fact that works, with tolerable side effects. If such is not available, or affordable (and it is disgraceful that any person on this planet does not have full access to professional healers), life sucks and then you die, but you can at least soften the blow with the placebo of your choice.

Back to hoops.

labbadabba 10 years, 2 months ago

Heilige Schize JayBate...

I know you're often long-winded but wow. Enjoyed the read though...

Joel Hood 10 years, 2 months ago

Having read the testimony from my learned colleagues, there does not appear to be any discernable difference between the “manipulation techniques” performed by chiropractors and osteopaths. The differences appear to be not in the technique, but in the skill of the practitioner. Gene Iba likely received these treatments as a very young man (50 years ago) and as such did not care much if the sheepskin said DO or DCM. Therefore, I conclude that it was an understandable error for Gene Iba to describe Phog Allen’s sports therapy as “chiropractic.”

Now the question remains – was it journalistically ethical for Matt Tait to quote Gene Iba and then fail to correct his statement that Phog Allen was a chiropractor? Did Matt Tait not recognize the error? Or perhaps, Matt Tait knew that coach Iba made a misstatement, but out of respect for his age, tenure, and contribution to basketball in Kansas decided to not correct coach Iba’s erroneous, but understandable misstatement?

Since I am neither a MD, DO, DCM, PhD, RPH, DDT nor journalist, I do not feel qualified to answer this question. There are so many problems in the world, I cannot be expected to solve them all.

;-) RCJH

Glen Darge 10 years, 2 months ago

I see by the schedule that ESPN will be televising the next KU game the 17th. at 9:00 p.m. That means only after we see and get the results of the East and West coast reports. And then if they can keep the cables straightened out we might get to see a few minutes of the first half due to untimley blackouts of the broadcast. It happens every year.. But only after ESPN gets thru screwing around. I really wish they would get out of televissing sports all together.

Glen Darge 10 years, 2 months ago

I see by the schedule that ESPN will be televising the next KU game the 17th. at 9:00 p.m. That means only after we see and get the results of the East and West coast reports. And then if they can keep the cables straightened out we might get to see a few minutes of the first half due to untimley blackouts of the broadcast. It happens every year.. But only after ESPN gets thru screwing around. I really wish they would get out of televissing sports all together.

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