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Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Keegan

Dream title: KU vs. UK

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A chain of events good for the quality of play in college basketball started on the final day of March when coach John Calipari left Memphis for Kentucky and concluded Tuesday when John Wall, the nation’s top recruit, committed to Kentucky.

The key event in the middle of those major happenings came when brothers Xavier and C.J. Henry, who had been looking forward to playing for Coach Cal at Memphis, committed to Kansas.

Think about it: Before Calipari changed jobs, Kansas was the smart pick for preseason No. 1, and Memphis was the fashionable pick for No. 2. Back then, the rosters Self and Calipari coached weren’t nearly as loaded as they are now.

Sure, Calipari lost the Henry brothers, but he compensated by landing Wall. Plus, had Calipari stayed at Memphis, he wasn’t going to get to coach Patrick Patterson, one of the nation’s top big men. Patterson averaged 17.9 points, 9.3 rebounds and 2.1 blocks as a sophomore at Kentucky. Scoring machine Jodie Meeks hasn’t made up his mind whether he’ll stay in the NBA Draft or return to Kentucky.

Let’s assume Meeks stays put. Just in case Kentucky, No. 1 on college basketball’s all-time victory list, and Kansas, No. 3, play for the 2010 national title April 5 in Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, let’s look at the matchups.

A lot can happen in 322 days, so why start hyping the potential matchup already? Because members of both fan bases will spend a good portion of each of those 322 days fantasizing about such a title game. (For those who always wondered about the particulars of actress/Kentucky fanatic Ashley Judd’s fantasies, there you have it.) Calipari must trim the total of scholarship players from 17 (with Meeks) to 13, but we’ll leave it to him which players go the way of Tyrone Appleton and Quintrell Thomas.

Point guard: Long and blurry quick, Wall was considered by some to be the best player in the nation, the Derrick Rose of his class. Rose lost to a Kansas team in which sophomore Sherron Collins played the majority of minutes at the point. Collins is a senior now, Wall a freshman. Eric Bledsoe, a hotly recruited incoming freshman, provides depth for Kentucky. Self can turn to C.J. Henry or Elijah Johnson to relieve Collins or can shift Tyshawn Taylor over from shooting guard. Slight edge: Kansas.

Shooting guard: If Meeks comes back, Kentucky has a first-team All-American. Look for big improvement from Taylor. Big edge: Kentucky.

Small forward: Xavier Henry shapes up as KU’s first one-and-done player. Kentucky can counter with junior-college transfer Darnell Dodson. Edge: Kansas.

Power forward: Freshman Thomas Robinson, an ultra-athletic rebounding machine, will push sophomore Marcus Morris for playing time. Patterson blends the best qualities of both and has more experience. Big edge: Kentucky.

Center: Cole Aldrich defends and rebounds such large areas and steadily improves. Freshman DeMarcus Cousins is the nation’s No. 2 recruit, second only to Wall, according to Rivals.com. Slight edge: Kansas.

The outcome: The team with the player who hits a guarded three to send it into overtime wins.

Comments

Eurekahwk 10 years, 8 months ago

Cole, a SLIGHT edge over a freshman? I don't think so. I give our entire front court a major edge over Kentucky. Danny Manning doesn't coach Cal's bigs!

Bryan Summers 10 years, 8 months ago

A player by player match-up, but teams win games. Kansas is team oriented. Big edge: Kansas

drum1984 10 years, 8 months ago

Meeks was one of the most overrated players in college basketball last season. Sure he scored a lot of points but he only shot 46% from the field and averaged 2.7 turnovers per game vs. only 1.8 assists per game. Not great numbers for a supposedly great guard. I think Kentucky would probably be better if he didn't come back given all of the other players who can score and take better care of the ball. Either way, Wall is a huge get for those Wildcats and probably moves them into a preseason no. 2 spot. I think the talent level will be pretty close between the two rosters but the experience and leadership that Collins and Aldrich bring to the table makes the Jayhawks a much better bet to cut down the nets. The last time my hopes were this high going into a season (other than 07/08) was 04/05. Hopefully this team fares better than that one (and has fewer injuries to deal with).

rgreene 10 years, 8 months ago

drum, how can you call Meeks overrated because of those numbers? Yeah, he shot 46 percent (which, if you compare that with guards around the country is very good), and he was also leaned on much more as a scorer because of the team's lack of scoring depth. And the assist-to-turnover ratio is a moot point, since he was not a point guard. He hardly ever brought the ball up.

For reference on your claim that his 46 percent from the floor was weak, compare it with these KU leading scorers from the past few seasons...

2008-09: Sherron Collins -- 43.4 percent 2007-08: Brandon Rush -- 43.5 percent 2006-07: Brandon Rush -- 44.3 percent 2005-06: Brandon Rush -- 47.4 percent

46 percent is nothing to scoff at. Seemed to work for Rush. Plus, Meeks took mostly shots from the outside.

I agree, KU has an edge in experience and all, but pound for pound, Kentucky has just as much raw talent. Either way, it'd be a great matchup should they meet somewhere in the NCAAs.

CatsCatsCats 10 years, 8 months ago

You're giving two future D league players the edge over two lottery picks in next years draft? Maybe, but if I was you I'd pray for a push. I'll concede the 3 but he's got the wrong guy. I haven't seen dodson play but Cal is in love with Darius Miller. Don't let the handcuffs that BG put on him fool you, the former mr. Kentucky and top 30 player can ball. He also isn't considering 5 star orton and 3 year starter Stevenson at center/pf. And what about mcd all American liggins, or top 30 player hood? I think the game would likely be decided by the benches. None of it matters if meeks stays in the draft. Uk needs his experience and perimeter scoring to be strong contenders. Oh and meeks is NOT overrated. He had his man and Porters man in his face more times than not. Anyway should be a great game if it ever happens and great for college BB.

KY_Cats1 10 years, 8 months ago

Excellent discussion topic…easy to determine the outcome, but excellent topic.

If these teams played ten times in the Final Four, the Cats win ten times hands down. Maybe one of the games goes to OT, we’ll give you that glimmer of hope, but overall UK wins by an average of 8-10 points per game. The Cats won’t be the number one overall seed in the 2010 tournament for nothing.

UK has more overall talent (as demonstrated by more future NBA players), greater bench depth, more athleticism, better coaching, and a huge home court advantage with the Blue Mist descending upon Lucas Oil Field. Try matching up with 20,000-25,000 Wildcat fans making that short drive from the Commonwealth. None of the lesser programs out there can counter that level of fan support, period.

Without question, all signs point to the 2010 National Championship banner residing in Rupp Arena.

Go Big Blue!!!

PV_Hawk 10 years, 8 months ago

For all the UK fans that are coming to our site:

First off, welcome, as another of the blue bloods, we respect your opinion, as long as you respect ours. We aren't Tennessee and you aren't Missouri, so there should be a level of respect for each other (don't come with the "lesser program" crap).

Secondly, if you are going to come to the site, please come with the facts. While I agree Sheron may be a borderline NBA / NBDL type player (I feel he will hang on to a league for awhile similar to the way Vaughn has), Cole is not NBDL. He is currently projected to go 5th in the draft next year, 14 spots ahead of Cousins. I think he should have a larger edge over Cousins due to 2 years of experience, but its debatable.

Lastly, you're welcome for Rupp. Its nice to know we are responsible for the development of two of the great non-KU coaches (Rupp and Dean Smith).

Rock Chalk!

keith horinek 10 years, 8 months ago

I have to believe the KY fans are coming on our site because they have nothing to say on their own site? At least they recognize a quality discussion board about top DI BB. The memphis morons tried the same thing and eventually they disapeared, probably because they could not keep up intellectually.

Seth Peattie 10 years, 8 months ago

we would/will smoke those fools. Self vs Cal in title games? 1-0.

uk can suck it, suck it, suck it, suck it, and, SUCK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dyrk Dugan 10 years, 8 months ago

KY...nice for you to come over here, but you're just blathering. it's just stir up words.

10 times hands down? that's not a serious comment. KU will be good...very good.

as i tell my Moo brethren over the last few years.....i'll gladly get you a map, so you can guide your team and fans to the arena. If our teams are fortunate enough to make the championship game....we're looking forward to the matchup.

K_Easthouse 10 years, 8 months ago

I've been over on their boards for a bit, and they seem pretty convinced they will be back and roll over everyone with their new "savior" of a coach.

I think it's easy, when a team that's used to winning has been down for a few years, to read as much into this upswing as possible.

I'm all for letting the chatter happen on the boards, but let's keep things realistic. As long as Self can keep this team's head in the game and working hard every day, we will have an excellent year. But let's let our boys on the court do the talking and let the Kentucky hopefuls get a workout with their mouths/fingers.

jayhawkinATL 10 years, 8 months ago

"One-and-dones" don't win championships!!! It's a proven fact!!! Look at the past 3 national champions...Florida, KU, and UNC. Big-time, big-stage game experience matters!!!

rockchalkin54 10 years, 8 months ago

Cal's going to have to kick some experience off the bench to make room for all his OAD's. I'm not worried about Kentucky this year. Now if he gets the freshmen to stay for the 2010-11 season, then I'll get worried.

jayhawkinATL 10 years, 8 months ago

...not to mention Calipari doesn't believe in the importance of FTs.

KANSTUCKY 10 years, 8 months ago

Maybe Rupp Arena will have a sell-out season this year to go with their sell-out coaching hire. Dance with the devil and your going to get burned.

jhawks 10 years, 8 months ago

Where's the experience edge?

Kansas would have a huge edge on tournament experience. I think Meeks would be the only one for Kentucky that would have played any meaningful minutes in the NCAA tournament (I may be wrong). They had one win and one loss in '07. Does anyone remember who BEAT Kentucky in the tournament on March 18, 2007?

KUPROUD 10 years, 8 months ago

After the Jayhawks, I'm a Kentucky fan having lived there during a period of my life. Both programs are at the top level, and it's time for KY to get rolling again. I will not be surprised to see a KU-UK NCAA match-up next March or April. But looking at it realistically, the Hawks will be a veteran team with enormous talent and experience playing together under one of the best coaches in the country (if not the best, he' on a very short list). The Cats will have enormous talent but little experience, and it will take awhile for them to jell. They also have a top coach who will have them playing well by March. Edge to the experienced, talented team on a mission that will know what it takes to advance in the tournament. Jayhawks will prevail.

jhawks 10 years, 8 months ago

I'll print a retraction. "Meaningful minutes with a win"

RockChalkGuy 10 years, 8 months ago

I find it interesting that the UK fans have such confidence in their 'new' program. They've got a new coaching staff and a ton of young/new players. I remember KU having a great coach and a ton of young/new players at the beginning of this past year and it only* resulted in a Sweet 16 appearance. As has been stated many times above, the experience factor is important and could possibly be considered critical to winning a National Championship.

*I debated whether to use the word "only" because it somehow degrades the huge accomplishment of last year's team. In the context of this article, though, a Sweet 16 is far short of cutting down the nets.

Joe Joseph 10 years, 8 months ago

RockChalkGuy,

KU's previous recruiting class does not compare to Kentucky's current one.

Timmay97 10 years, 8 months ago

The Kentucky fans are trying to so hard to get a rise out of us it's pitiful. First off, I take this as a huge sign of respect. They are coming to our chat boards because they know KU is the 1 team standing in their way.......and therefore, they are scared. I'm not gonna go into the talk about who will win and who will lose......but I think we can all agree that a KU vs UK game would be tremendous and fun for all.

These two teams will be the creme of the crop this upcoming year. Fact is though.....KU is more experienced and has the necessary senior leadership. We haven't determined if UK will have that leadership yet (ala Meeks' decision).

If I wanted to comment on UK in a negative way......look at the conference they are in. As far as I'm concerned, the talent level in the SEC doesn't even compare with the Big 12 for the past 3 years. Which conference has the last three player of the year candidates come from? Answer: Big 12 (Durant, Beaseley and Griffin). SEC had a down year last year, and I don't expect it to change THAT much this year. UK should run away with it. Kind of reminds me of another conference Calipari coached in......Conference USA anyone?

Some things never change. Go Hawks!

KUSmurf 10 years, 8 months ago

Well, Beasley wasn't player of the year, but 2/3 is still pretty good.

5a5quatch 10 years, 8 months ago

Oh, the arrogant, moronic UK fans...

CatsCatsCats...since you agree that X has an edge at his position, I assume the two "D" League players you are referring to are Collins and Aldrich. I'll just leave the Collins argument alone, since we'll obviously agree to disagree, but Aldrich? Aldrich was projected as high as #4 in THIS YEAR'S draft. Aldrich's 7'5" wingspan would dominate Cousins and Orton on the block. UK has some great, young talent on the frontline, but they don't have anybody that can matchup with Aldrich. Did you see his triple double in the NCAA Tournament last year? Oh yeah, you were probably watching the NIT.

KY_Cats1...You make even more ludicrous statements. 10/10 times? That's just the crazy ramblings of a "blue mist" fanatic. Even worse...UK has better coaching? Did you see Calipari get schooled by MU's coach Anderson in the Tournament last year? MU ran the same inside curl over and over, and Calipari made no adjustments. Memphis' supposed best defense in the nation was exposed for the Conf USA fraud that it was.

I hate to say good things about MU, so let's look at the obvious: Self vs. Calipari in the 2008 NCAA Championship game. While KU is down 9 with two minutes to go, there is no panic in the players or coaching staff. Memphis players are tight. KU comes all the way back to 3 down with seconds left. Does Calipari make sure his players know to foul, and draw something up to ensure it happens? No. After Chalmers calmly hits his shot, does Memphis call timeout to draw something up? No, even though they have 2 seconds, they just throw the ball in for a meaningless half court heave. Then, in OT, does Calipari get his team refocused? No, KU easily dismisses Memphis in the 5 minute session to decide the National Champion.

Calipari may be the best recruiter in the nation, but Self and Williams are right there. In terms of coaching, however, Calipari isn't even in the same league. His free-lance offense, run by one-and-doners, wouldn't beat any Top 25 team 10/10 times.

vmwskywalk 10 years, 8 months ago

First things first Kentucky fans...Let's get you into the NCAA tournment before talking about winning it all.

Joe Baker 10 years, 8 months ago

This "dream" match-up is a crack up. UK has too much work and chemistry to work through this year. It's not their talent, but their "team chemistry" that's lacking. You think Collins and Aldrich stayed another year for less than a NC? You're out of your mind!!

How easily you forget this entire KU team went to the SWEET 16!!! HELLO!! Where did UK go? NIT and lost? Calasleazy knows what happens when you depend on freshmen to win a NC...they choke!!

Collins would school Meeks on what it takes to win a championship!!

KU 2009-2010 National Champions Rock Chalk Jayhawk the 2009-10 Season!!

jayhawkinATL 10 years, 8 months ago

'Cat fans may want to wait a while before talking smack...apparently, neither Cousins nor Wall have qualified academically. Don't be surprised to see him take the Brandon Jennings route.

jayhawkinATL 10 years, 8 months ago

'Cat fans may want to wait a while before talking smack...apparently, neither Cousins nor Wall have qualified academically. Don't be surprised to see him (Wall) take the Brandon Jennings route.

Jaminrawk 10 years, 8 months ago

I doubt Wall, Cousins and Orton are going to be enough to push those NIT losers to elite status. KY (hilarious state abbreviation by the way) should be excited because they have been irrelevant for years now. I guarantee you this Kentucky team is going to have some major growing pains. Meeks is a ball hog, Patterson is injury prone, and the other "impact" guys are freshmen.

Joe Baker 10 years, 8 months ago

Wall "slight" edge over Collins, Taylor, CJ, EJ---What's this guy smoking...SLIGHT EDGE!! Wall brings an enormous amount of NCAA "experience" to UK!! LOL Wall is good, BUT he's not that smart!! I think he'll be a big disappointment for UK. I don't think he'll deliver and the program develops issues with Wall and Bledsoe called ego and academic eligibility. He leaves UK in a mess and they regret ever having him on the team. I'm sure Coach Sleazy will find a way to keep his little overrated pointguard in the nation safe from academic issues. I think they have a major at UK called "COWTIPPING." He might excel at that major!! LOL

DoubleDD 10 years, 8 months ago

I just can't but feel that KY is in trouble with all that young talent. Just look at KU last season if we don't have Collins and Aldrige we lose a lot of games. Talent can never beat talent and experience. All this talk of KY being a major contender is a bit premature. Don't get me wrong Cal does wanders with young talent (still don't like em!) however he's not playing in the CUSA anymore were he could jell his young talent against weaker opponents. SEC will not afford him an easy ride through conference play. Hence trouble.

This notion of KU vs KY would be a nice conclusion to the season. However I'm afraid it wouldn't be a very good basketball game to watch enless you're a diehard KU Fan. Now Now Now I'm just looking at this as a college basketball fan. I have no doubt that KY's starting five will be very good. However, this is where KU will separate itself from not only KY but everybody in CB. """"Bench Play""""" With the experience of last years sweet 16 run and the influx of incoming players. KU's second five coming of the bench could be a starting five of almost any team in CB.

Sure KY you've got talent but you forgot what it takes to win games thats why you ran BillyG out of town. You can't just put this best players on the floor and win championships not in this day in age when your playing other teams that can match your talent level. You need the intangibles that will put you over the top: great coaching, bench play, Danny Manning showing your big men the ropes "opps" sorry just can hide the Jayhawk in me.

Point is if KY matches up with KU it won't be a good game, about the 4 min mark when Self brings in 5 off the bench it'll be lights out. H--e--ll even our mop up guys could start on at least half the teams in CB. I like to think of myself as a grounded KU fan as they come (Thanks Roy??) but, I just can't help myself with this team it is loaded as any team I've ever seen. I try to run the different lineups in my head and just get dizzy. Do you realize we can't get in foul trouble, its just not possible with all the experience and talent we have. I'm sure KY will get some love from the media being an east coast team an all, but KU has that look of a champion, not a one and done.

worrynotjhawk 10 years, 8 months ago

Wow...I sometimes wonder why people bash others so much. Here is a couple of important points I don't think anyone hit on:

1 - Tyrel Reed - showed major toughness last year and will provide a lot of meaningful minutes this coming year. 3 point threat??? 2 - Brady Morningstar - why does no one respect this kid? He goes out every night plays probably the best D of anybody and hits a lot of 3's. Don't think he'll just said aside and say "Sure coach, let those freshman take my spot." He'll probably contribute more than a Morris Twin, Reed, and Releford combined. 3 - Travis Releford - I'm hesitant about this, but I see tremendous upside here. He should battle for minutes if he can gain game time confidence. Plus, he has a year under his belt now. That does nothing but help players in Self's system.

These three guys are Jayhawks too. I think they deserve as much hype as anyone else on the team. Without them, last years team wouldn't have been so great. Think about it.

Joe Baker 10 years, 8 months ago

Center: Cole Aldrich defends and rebounds such large areas and steadily improves. Freshman DeMarcus Cousins is the nation’s No. 2 recruit, second only to Wall, according to Rivals.com. Slight edge: Kansas.

This is sssooooo funny...Now I know this guy is smoking UK crack!!

Again, Cousins brings an enormous amount of NCAA "experience" to this floundering UK squad and Cole is shaking in his hightops. Did I miss something? Does this guy know Cole? He'll be one of the premier big men in the nation!! OMG...ILMAO

Cousins is a little boy compared to Cole. Give me a freakin' break..."slight edge"? Cole will be a highly experienced Junior and Cousins will be a green frosh!!

Michael Bratisax 10 years, 8 months ago

Seems as though the vast majority of posters agree that Cole has a LARGE advantage and you failed to even mention Jeff Withey and only a slight mention of the Morris twins.

What bothered me most about your article is that you seem to have completely discounted experience and team unity. We all know Self will adjust the starting rotation as we head towards conference play, but for the most part, the experienced players already know what is expected from them. Kentucky will have an extremely talented 'one and done' team next year as players vie for playing minutes. They are only in this for major exposure and entry into next year's NBA draft. Kansas players have already proven what they are playing for. Also, I'm fairly certain running off 3 or 4 scholarship players will not help team unity at Kentucky. Kansas will have both highly talented experienced players and a mixture of highly talented (at least potentially) incoming freshmen. EXPERIENCE: HUGE edge for Kansas

Danny Hernandez 10 years, 8 months ago

About Orton, didn't Self send him Coach G's way after he accepted T.Robinson? Orton wanted to be a Jayhawk but Self wanted Robinson and if that is true, there must be a reason.....In Self I trust

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Huge point guard dunking edge (over high schoolers) : Kentucky (wow!)

Huge Hot Plastic surgery 50 year old Hotty Edge: Kentucky (Wow!)

Double A Flat Boring Ugly Campus Big Edge: Kentucky (wow it's really THAT ugly!)

The "Arena is owned by our city" Edge: Kentucky (no ownership it's like KU's Kemper Arena!)

The "Arena isn't on campus" laughing stock edge: Kentucky ("da*n that'd a long walk coach!"): Kentucky (2 miles away!)

The "Arena shares basketball court with Sesame street Live & Ice Capades & Kenny Chesney" Award: Kentucky ("mommy can I get another Kenny Chesney cotton candy, I promise I'll take out my dentures this time!")

The Coach is trapped in millions of dollars of Psychotic He** Edge, trapped by wagon wheel streets which is centered by his office: Kentucky ("help mom! I didn't know I'd have to drive everyday into the middle of these crazy people, there's no escape! Leave me alone, I don't want to talk about our one point loss to VMI, help Mom, they're pulling me out of the car [click]"

The "oh crp, I forgot the NCAA is able to get online and see my recruit Cousins talk on YouTube about me talking to him during a non contact time" Huge Edge: Kentucky ( Oh crp, you mean the NCAA STILL investigates?")

The "oh no! I forgot my old fan base is going to start spilling the beans on how much I used to pay my old recruits atMemphis" Big Edge: Kentucky ("what's so fishy about five first rounders wanting to play in a slightly better than high school league?")

The "oops I shouldn't have used Wes Tiger to pay Rose that extra summer stipend" Edge: Kentucky ("you're just bugging me because Floyd isn't returning your calls!")

The "oops I forgot to learn how to coach" Huge Edge: Kentucky ("let's keep this between you & I, but getting beat by Missouri by 20 points was just a test to see if I could still get a 30 million dollar contract after UK saw what I have to offer.")

The "oh no, my players aren't academically qualified" Edge: Kentucky ("you mean ALL 17 of my players had to pass the test AND they can't trade scores!? Wes! Go get your checkbook and get theseguys outta my he** on earth office!"

The "owns 1,000,000 ten dollar throw away nontraceable cell phones from Kmart" Edge (huge edge): Kentucky ("that's right John, fill in the ovals with your pencil, not the soft squishy part, that's for erasing... Whats erasing? Slow down, John, we won't get into that yet")

The "Oh Cr*p, I've turned into an alcoholic, the NCAA won't leave me alone and I'm not sure why they named the city's Arena after a Jayhawk" Edge: Kentucky (" you mean I can't even have a few mint julips before practice if I have them at my house???")

The "John Wall Recruiting Violations Magnet": Kentucky!

Should be a great game. Nice job LJW

raulsalinapicazo 10 years, 8 months ago

Once Cousins gets a triple-double with blocks, rebounds, and points KU might might have a slight edge but now it's a huge edge.

keith horinek 10 years, 8 months ago

Here are the top schools on recruiting. It's going to be real interesting next season. The big differance between these top 5 or 6 is experience and I have to give that to KU as they have a sweet 16 team coming back intact with the addition of 5 outstanding recruits. HOLY SMOKES! Those wildcats won't know what hit em! http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/classrankings?classyear=2009&classmonth=5&rank=6

Greg Lux 10 years, 8 months ago

KU over UK simple alphabetic structure K comes before U..... That backward university will fail again. UK has a lot of "i"s KU has a lot of Team and everyone knows there are no "i"s in team. I will take the team orientated structure over Calipari's dribble drive offense everyday.

Rock Chalk

100 10 years, 8 months ago

As expected UK took the #1 spot in recruiting.

We ended up #5.

Keep in mind transfers CJ Henry & Jeff Withey aren't included in this analysis.

KY_Cats1 10 years, 8 months ago

There is a good chance this dream title match-up could actually only be for a regional championship in 2010, not for a national championship. Here is why.

Kentucky will roll through the non-conference and SEC schedules with little challenge outside of UNC. We will concede that the SEC is currently building itself back up to the status of a premiere basketball conference. Even with this factor, however, an undefeated SEC regular season and conference tournament will move the Cats into March as the definitive top overall seed and short-odds favorite to win the NCAA tournament.

KU on the other hand will not be as lucky in the Big XII. Strong Longhorn, Sooner, and Aggie squads, along with a now annually dangerous Tiger team will make it difficult for KU to repeat as regular season champions. An improved team in Manhattan will also have a say in this matter. It is quite possible KU will finish second or third in the 2010 regular season Big XII standings. Plus, based upon this past season’s KU performance in the conference tournament, expecting this group to win the postseason tournament is clearly asking a lot.

All of these factors make a number one NCAA tournament seed quite a challenge for KU. A seed just south of a one is more likely. Without a conference regular season or postseason championship, this would also likely slot them in as a low two/high three if their overall profile was good enough. As the possible lowest two or highest three, KU would be in the same regional as the Cats who will be the overall top seed.

All of college basketball would hope such a UK-KU match-up would be in Indianapolis. If the plausible scenario above plays out, however, it would be one week earlier.

Doesn’t change the game result though.

Cats 87, KU 75

Go Big Blue!!!

Joel Hood 10 years, 8 months ago

100, Great point re CJ & Withey.

The 2008 NC wasn't built on one class. It was built on the accumulated effort of careful recruiting of several different classes. The same can be said of UNC & FLA NCs - each had a great mix of multiple classes. Everyone keeps reminding of us of Melo in 2003, but he was a great player on a very good team that had a terrific mix as well (plus, I don't think Melo had much to do with KU shooting under 50% at the FT line that night.)

A team of OAD's may look great on paper, but if your best players are always Froshs & Sophs, I doubt UK gets much past the Sweet 16 until they have solid upperclassmen. That may be sooner than later, but it ain't next year.

swimmer4uk 10 years, 8 months ago

I love reading these comments. Its an article and on a KU site. The only reason UK fans know of it is because a KU fan posted it on a UK forum. Get over yourselves KU fans, its just an hypothetical article, not a invitation to demean people. Every UK will admit that in the past 10 years or so, they've been down and KU's been up. Every SMART UK fan will say that projecting us to a title game this early with this many freshman isn't really a good bet. Relax KU fans, no reason to demonstrate your innate arrogance and lack of good will towards other fans

Joel Hood 10 years, 8 months ago

swimmer4uk (anonymous) says... …Get over yourselves KU fans, its just an hypothetical article, not a invitation to demean people... Relax KU fans, no reason to demonstrate your innate arrogance and lack of good will towards other fans ============================== What??? This is a KU site and whenever UK trolls jump in with outlandish statements the home crowd is going to react accordingly. That’s what trolling incites. Who has been demeaned on this site that wasn’t asking for it?

If you were truly familiar with the KU Sports message boards you would know that we are very courteous to fans from other teams who come here to offer rational dialoge. Are you saying that if I posted on a UK message board with outlandish opinions that I would be welcomed with open arms? Really?? Would a UK alum send me some money via Emery Worldwide transit too?

justanotherfan 10 years, 8 months ago

I think any speculation about a Kansas - Kentucky title game at this point is just for fun.

After all, KU has to survive the Big 12 (no easy task when you look at what OU has returning, plus coming in, plus what Texas, Oklahoma State, Missouri and K-State have done in recruiting and otherwise). Kentucky has to survive the SEC, and I'm not sure that Florida, Tennessee, Mississippi State and others are eager to run up the white flag just yet.

After that, both teams would still need to win five tournament games. Looking around the nation, I'm sure Michigan State, North Carolina, Villanova, UConn and others will have something to say about this KU-UK matchup.

But just for fun, lets ponder. In the title game, both teams would shorten their benches to probably only play seven, maybe eight guys tops. For KU, that eight would likely be:

Cole Aldrich, Thomas Robinson, Jeff Withey, one Morris twin (maybe), Xavier Henry, Sherron Collins, Elijah Johnson and Tyshawn Taylor. That's probably as deep as it gets in the title game.

For UK, their eight would likely be (presuming Jodie Meeks returns to Lexington):

Patrick Patterson, DeMarcus Cousins, Daniel Orton, Darnell Dodson, Jon Hood, John Wall, Eric Bledsoe, Jodie Meeks.

Yes, there are talented players for both teams not listed. But in the title game, it boils down to best five or six guys each getting 28+ minutes, with a couple of other guys getting 8-12 minutes to hold the fort. Given that, here's how I think it plays out.

UK has a slight athleticism advantage along the front line, especially at the 4 and 5, but they give up some size to realize this advantage. Cole is able to be effective defensively against Patterson and Orton, but their quickness causes him to pick up a couple of fouls, so his minutes in the first half would probably be limited. Thomas Robinson and DeMarcus Cousins would be a real treat to watch. Withey and whichever Morris got time would give us more mobility inside without losing much size.

Both teams have speed and athleticism all over the place at the point and on the wings. Collins and Johnson would be at their drive and kick best against a team like Kentucky, but Wall and Bledsoe could match that type of play on the other end. Henry and Meeks can both flat out stroke it from distance, so the game would come down to the same things that Memphis-KU came down to - turnovers and free throws.

The game would be a toss up. Don't deceive yourself otherwise. If they played ten times at neutral sites, each team would probably win five. But in one game in April, tough call. KU's experience advantage is really not that great because only Collins really has title game experience (Cole barely played against Memphis). Four of our guys would be in their first season of D-1 basketball. Add to it the fact that this is Kentucky, these guys will be battle tested by April. If they get to the title game, they will be as tested as we are.

My heart says Hawks by 4.

truefan 10 years, 8 months ago

I'm sorry UK fans, but you are on the wrong side of a very similar situation to the 2007-2008 season. You're arrogance is matched only by the arrogance shown by Memphis fans the year we beat them for the title. They gave the same NBA prospect arguement and it only got them 2nd place. Keep talking, it just fuels the fire of more experienced teams such as ours.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Swimmer4UK,

Several fans from UK have been all over our boards claiming championship banners & innocence ever since Calipari was hired.

This began about the same time the Memphis fans stopped attacking our boards.

Congratulations on your new hire -- I do wonder why your fans didn't do this to our boards when Gillespie signed?

Normally I'd say best of luck, as I've always respected UK & UNC to a point, except for the scandals UK has been caught up in. In light of recent UK fan comments, I'll simply say

Good bye UK Swimmer

CatsCatsCats 10 years, 8 months ago

I have to admit i'm not sure if cousins is worthy of being labeled the #2 prospect in this class. He seemed kind of lazy to me in the two games I've seen. I'm not even sure how uk would stack up with ku, I'll need to see at least half of the season to make that assessment. Honestly I think MOST uk fans would be happy with a regional final app based on what we've been through lately. However I think most on here are vastly underestimating Wall. Experience does matter if talent levels are similar. In this case though you're comparing someone that would/should be happy to be an NBA scrub with the number 1 pick in next years draft. This guy is an absolute superstar. If we do play, the best player on the floor will be Wall in a landslide. The only other point I'll make is uk is NOT full of one and dones. We have 2 and ku has 1. Well be starting a senior, a junior, and a sophmore in darius miller. Add the best player in America to that and you have to admit uk would at least have a chance. It's not like Patterson and meeks are nobodys. Meeks was all American and patterson was rated as a first round pick this year. In fact if our roster was in this years draft it's likely we'd have four first rounders. I know ku has a great team so don't take it as gloating I'm just trying to respectfully state our case.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

100,

Smokin'!

drgnslyr,

Prudently and diplomatically calling a spade a spade.

Ralster,

Appropriate skepticism.

jaybate,

Why you say nuttin'?

Becuz...

If we play UK early, we kick their asses into the next century, where ever we play them. They are green wood with a new system.

Becuz...

If we play UK mid season, we kick their asses into the next century unless we are over confident or having injuries to Sherron and Cole.

Becuz...

If we play UK late in the season, when they are as experienced as our team was by this past season's end, we will still beat them, because we play defense incomparably better, shoot free throws better, trifectate better, and with the additions of Withey, Robinson XHenry, and a healed Mario Little, will glassvac harder, and more relentlessly, than a Hoover Vacuum cleaner the size of a Peabody coal shovel.

Really, my fellow Jayhawks...

To even suggest that it would be a close game, when UK has a new and inferior coach, a bunch of untested new players, an inferior scheme of play, and no recent legacy of excellence, is frankly absurd.

We'd beat this cobbled together bunch of athletes by 20 points.

Where are your huevos, Jayhawks?

These guys are posers.

They have done nothing.

And drgnslyr is probably right.

They probably are going to be on probation before we even get a chance to beat the living thoroughbred manure out of them.

UK! Who's your daddy?

drum1984 10 years, 8 months ago

Ryan Greene, I wasn't comparing Meeks to Collins or Rush, simply saying that I thought he was overrated last season. But because you made the comparison, Collins and especially Rush are/were infinitely better defensive players than Meeks so the fact that Meeks shot marginally better from the field means little to nothing. Meeks shoots the ball well from the outside and the free throw line, but he turns the ball over way to much for someone who isn't a distributor. It isn't so much that 46% is a bad fg% for an all-around guard, but rather that Meeks is only really a scorer and so that percentage combined with the awful A/T rate is not as impressive as it was/is often made out to be. Also, all those years that Rush was the leading KU scorer, nowhere near as much offense went through Rush. KU had a lot more balance. My main point I guess is that too many people judge players simply by Points per game, but a "first-team all-american" type guard shouldn't have 50% more turnovers than assists.

drum1984 10 years, 8 months ago

Furthermore that assist to turnover ratio is not a moot point, because Meeks handled the ball enough to lead the team in turnovers. For a guy who isn't bringing the ball up, that's a very significant problem.

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

This is a good-looking site. Kudos.

There's a handful of teams that have at least a small claim to be among the "elite" of college basketball. (Not individual seasons, mind you, but looking at the whole resume.) Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, Duke (barely), UCLA, Indiana possibly, Louisville possibly. Off all those teams, Kansas is the one for which I've always had the most respect.

I hope that some of the comments made in this thread by UK fans are taken in the same way that I've taken many of the KU comments, and that neither will cause the other side to assume that ALL fans think that way. Been tough to read some of the comments (barbs, rather) slung our way, but hey, it's your board. And you're right: I'm a moderator at a UK site, and I'm sure we wouldn't take too kindly to some of these comments over there. ;)

The only problem I had with anything in here is the person who said that Meeks was overrated. That....is....LAUGHABLE!!!!!

I hope that UK can plan KU in the finals next year, if for no other reason than to FINALLY get our program back into the mix. Been away for way too long...

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

drum1984, when you're the only guy who will try to score away from the blocks, you get swarmed by defenders as soon as you touch the ball. That's what Meeks put up with this year. That, and a coach who (allegedly) told him to stop shooting so much. (Brilliant, BCG. Just brilliant...)

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

I've heard the "Roy Williams has class" thing before. Ridiculous. Roy looks after Roy. I bet the players he was recruiting, the young men he developed relationships with and planned to mentor through rather formative years in their lives, were pleased beyond belief with his "classy" decision to drop them once his dream job came open. And I bet that you'd even believe that Roy would have done the same thing if we had NOT been inheriting a roster with several McD All-Americans on it.

Hard to be a gracious guest when what I'd consider a classy post is followed up drivel like the above. Please, KU fans, prove me right. You have classy fans, I know you do. Are they here????

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Post Script:

Cole Aldrich, weighing in at 20 pounds heavier, and healed up, will feminize all of UK's bigs. Cole is a potentially exceptional big man, not some overgrown 4, like Cousins, or an Orton with a ton of baby fat. Again, talking about a close game is fantasy. Frankly, on a good trinitizing night, KU's second team might beat UK's starting team. KU is tremendously deep and experienced and talented this coming season. The KU posters need a little more swagger. The UK posters need to get off the sour mash. As one of their sensible representatives said (note: UK has some of the most knowledgeable basketball fans I have met, when I have travelled their fine state, though they are represented by only one or two among our current visitors), UK needs to think about making it to the Sweet 16. And frankly, people are overlooking that the SEC is no longer the excellent basketball conference it was for awhile. Cal may well pull good W numbers at UK from the start, because of this, but it will come back to haunt him in the Madness, as it did at Memphis.

Again, I am all for the off spring prospering. I think UK prospering is vital to the maintenance of the legacy of college basketball. I think Cal will turn them around. But this coming season is start of the turn around, not the culmination of it.

KU, on the other hand, has been dealt a very strong hand, if Self can make it mesh...and Self is the maestro of mesh.

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

I agree, dynomite, that many KU fans have class. I don't agree that Roy does. We're not going to agree on that. Just know that it's easy to have class (see Coach K) when you have talent. Roy was going into a situation where he had talent. He saw the opportunity to "appear" classy by completely dropping the kids he was recruiting to Kansas. Makes fans of programs happy, maybe, but probably pretty shattering to those kids who had been drinking the Roy kool-aid for a year or two prior.

And you don't know me, or you wouldn't be asking the question about saying nice things about our previous coaches. The only one that I would NOT say nice things about would be Sutton. And that's just because he put us on probation. Tubby Smith was an OUTSTANDING coach who, late in his tenure, just gave up recruiting. Still think he's one of the top-five bench coaches in America. So you can rest your case if you'd like, but it's wrong.

I'll never forget classy Roy telling that female announcer that he knows the "man in her ear" told her to ask that question. THAT....was classless. Pretty much stood there on national TV and said that women aren't capable of conducting interviews on their own. No, no, there HAD to be a "man" somewhere guiding her. Give me a break.

Wow. I wanted to come over here and share some thoughts with a fanbase that I consider to be every bit as knowledgeable as ours. And classy, at that. Where'd I go wrong, fellas? Were my assumptions wrong, or did I say something wrong in one of my first posts?

I'll stick around, because I enjoy quality banter. (Quality is the key, though.) But I must say... I'm starting to doubt my original opinions of KU. I'm holding out hope that there are still some classy fans out there. Maybe just not on this board....? (There's a guy who posts on the board I moderate...SevenYearHawk....VERY classy. Is he here?)

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

And don't be alarmed by that "anonymous" by my name. I'm Jody Porter, from Marion, KY. I'm not going to hide behind a screen name and post this stuff. Jody Dean Porter. 32 years old. Male. Married, one beautiful 2-year old daughter. I don't want to be anonymous. If my name was bigblue4ever98, I could say whatever I wanted and nobody would be any the wiser.

Jonathan Unruh 10 years, 8 months ago

Remember it takes time for a high quality coach to get his new players to buy into his system. Calipari undoubtedly has complete control but very few coaches can come in and get a group of individuals to play team ball at a high level and into a final four/championship. Success for any team is still dependent on teamwork and probably a minimum of two years investment. Cal will have pressure to play the supposed one and dones lots of minutes but as we all know forced turnovers, underdeveloped bodies and me attitudes will be identified among these alete prospects. I know the Kentucky basketball mafia will have exceptionally high expectations but when they lose early in a November tournament, realistic expectations will arise among the basketball world. Oh and doesnt John Wall have a court date and the possibility of serving jail time?? Or does he pick up trash for a week during the summer. He'll have to return home to face justice and it could turn into a distraction or will a Kentucky alumni pay off the judge or prosecuting attorney. Does Calipari keep his youngins academically eligible??

Kansas has to stay focused, continue to play defense. Maybe coach will implement a 5 on 5 off scheme where we swarm our opponents relentlessly for 40 minutes. If one of our players energy is low there is probably two players behind him capable of providing a positive competitive environment among our team. Coach Self needs to focus on keeping everyone healthy and avoid the injury bug. I'm so excited and have been following every move but realistic to know someone is going to want to knock us off the mountain. My daughter watched her first national championship with me last year and as for this year I plan to initiate her to Allen Fieldhouse and she can see why I taught her the chant. I didnt name her to have her initals KU for nothing. We should focus on Two goals. Win the B 12 and focus on one game at time till the you reach the pinnacle.. And yes the only thing Barack can do right this coming year is pick us to win.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Porter,

KU, like any other fanbase, will stick up for itself (especially when someone else comes talking big for weeks without a break).

Most of our fans have a bunch of class. I have none. In fact very few posters ever seem to (seems like a good place for a sociological study of why computers make decent people mean). In short, this posting group represents .00000001% of Jayhawk nation. Don't make us mad with lies is our motto. Wr much prefer facts mixed with humor mixed with tradition mixed with strategy and coach talk. We happen to be very proud and until pushed the wrong way, we usually support other programs enthusiasm, because, alas, our first coach invented basketball and helped your first good coach learn the game from 1919-1923. We are proud of Rupp.

We are proud that a Jayhawk helped the world's 2nd best basketball player become the 2nd best pro ever. We are proud that his assistant (not yet a Jayhawk), brought him into UNC, and coached him for 3 years, including perhaps the best team of all time, the 1982 Tar Heels. We are proud they named their arena after a great Jayhawk, one who just missed winning 2 NCAA crowns as a player at Kansas.

We are also proud that Naismith's greatest recruit of all time eventually recruited the hands down best player to ever play the game of basketball. Even against Bill Russel & his stellar team, Wilt, without much help, beat the celtics several times.

We're proud of two of the Celtics draft choices, even if not all support them -- specifically that with all of their history, five NBA finals MVPs have been given -- three of them to Jayhawks.

The list goes on, as I'm sure it does at UK.

The biggest problem I have with all of the Lexington people coming on here with their mashetees is that honestly, we have liked you in the past. We honestly haven't heard much about you for ten years, and even that 3 year run, 96, 97, 98, though impressive, had ten eight years of silence before.

So why would we think anything UK?

Our issue is Calipari -- you guys have hit a real sore spot with us.

We don't think anything of you guys, except have past respect (except for the shaving scandals, the paid recruit & the altered grades). Mostly we respect your past.

So when your fans come on here blowing their guns, all we hear is fans associated with Calipari. Its like Memphis fans but worse. That's all we hear.

So we don't have a bone to pick with you, except for the last five weeks since Calipari has become your coach -- just talk about the coach a little more -- we all know why you have him & what you had to pay.

I guess we just want to hear a little more of an ethical stance from you. I mean let's face it, you now have Memphis' team. Is there any remorse here?

KU2010CHAMPS 10 years, 8 months ago

JodyPorter you sure no alot about ol roy boy. Are you sure your not a jayhawk fan just trying to to get us all riled up. Or maybe even an MU fan. Most of the UK fans that post on this site are pretty classless themselves so get over it.

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

No remorse.

Memphis would have had a great recruiting class next year too. But it wouldn't have had Daniel Orton and Jon Hood. And it wouldn't have been able to play with an experienced talent like Patrick Patterson, and (hopefully) another experienced talent like Jodie Meeks. And throw in another GREAT young player, Darius Miller, and you have the makings of something special.

And yes, I'm loving every minute of it. I grew up with some great UK teams. Chapman, Davender, Walker, Bennett, et al. Had a rough time with the probation, but then got to really come of age with Pitino and the great run through the '90's. Heck, even into the oughts, things were great. No final four, but that 2003 team is easily one of my favorite teams ever.

And then the last four years happened. :(

So you can't blame us if we're a little excited about the possibilities now. Yes, we paid a lot of money to get Cal. But no, I don't think you'll find a single UK fan who feels any remorse about that.

The only reason I'm even here is because, today, this article was linked on our board. I got curious and came over to check it out.

I look forward to posters that can cite examples of Calipari's conduct that's going to put UK on probation. As common knowledge as it is that it's happened, surely somebody here has the link. Me? I'm just turning a blind eye to it. At least until a few more banners can be hung. ;)

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

KU2010CHAMPS, UNC is at the top of my list. (Not the good list, either.) And roy boy, as you call him, happens to be their coach. So....I'm not a big fan. With or without his sexist comments, I wouldn't be a fan of his.

Nah, I'm not here to rile anybody up. On the contrary, I had hoped to have a good discussion about what could be (should be) two great teams next year. After a post or two, though, I realized that's not going to happen.

Good luck next year, Jayhawks.

HAWKinmo 10 years, 8 months ago

Cats cats cats

Aldrich a d league player? Cole would have been a top 10 pick this year if he would have left school barring injury he will be a top 5 pick next year. Collins probably the bottom of the first round. Wall is another Derrick Rose but Sherron played him very tough on a bad foot. You really think he has not gotten any better?

BADD_ASH 10 years, 8 months ago

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THESE DANG WILDCAT FANS WRITING ON THESE WALLS SAYING STUPID STUFF LIKE... "If these teams played ten times in the Final Four, the Cats win ten times hands down. Maybe one of the games goes to OT, we’ll give you that glimmer of hope, but overall UK wins by an average of 8-10 points per game. The Cats won’t be the number one overall seed in the 2010 tournament for nothing." R U KIDDING ME? SHUT UP!!!

DoubleDD 10 years, 8 months ago

Wall vs Collins

Wall is I'm sure an excellent player and will make millions in the NBA, however Collins is no chump. No Collins may not be the NBA player Wall will become, but Collins has something Wall doesn't, a heart of a lion. Lets face it boys Collins will must likely be a back up in the league because of his size, but give Collins a chance and he'll ring you're bell. I'll never forget what he did against OK last year in Oklahoma. Collins has something that most players never have and thats balls of steel, the guy is a gamer. When the games on the line he not only wants the shot he craves the shot. You can't teach that boys.

Cole vs UK big boys

Slight edge my as!!!s. Cole is a man among boys. Just a thought if Cole had just one person to be a scoring threat done under last year, what kind of year would he have had. He was constantly double, tripled teamed last year. The wounds he carried into the tournament prove that. Now flash to the coming year: Cole is bigger and stronger ""how is this possible"" not to mention another year under Manning school of big men, Self has a slew of big men to play along side Cole. Bottom line Cole doesn't have to carry the load down under like he did last year, he can totally unleash himself on the opposing teams knowing he's got backup this year. POY anybody???

The sleeper in this whole conversation is CJ. Yes X is good and is going to be good, however CJ could be the missing link. I don't know how good he is, but Self is already saying CJ could garner alot of playing time. I don't know about you but I put trust in the Self.

Jaybate is right UK would not have a chance against KU. Some UK fan said they would beat 10 out 10??? are you serious???? We have the same team that made it to the sweet 16 last year, and everybody is returning. Where did you play last year??? what was that??? I can't hear you!!! That's right the NIT. Lets try making the Tournament before you start talking smack???

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Let's do an all time UK vs an all time KU:

KU (head coach Phog Allen, asst Coach Bill Self, Medical Doctor, James Naismith, towel guy Bill Pope)

POSITIONS:

  1. Wilt Chamberlain
  2. Danny Manning
  3. Paul Pierce
  4. Jo Jo White
  5. Mario Chalmers

UK (head coach John Calipari, asst coach Adolph Rupp, Medical Doctor Ashley Plastic face Judd, Towel Girl Same as previous)

POSITIONS:

  1. Daniel Orton
  2. Patrick Patterson
  3. Eric Bledsoe
  4. Jodie Meeks
  5. John Wall

If any Kentucky fan would like a play by play of the first half, let me know.

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

I'd seriously like to discuss basketball with intelligent KU fans. Does anybody here have any suggestions for a board to go to that features civil, intelligent discourse? Thanks in advance, Jody Porter

bigbluebear 10 years, 8 months ago

well hello again, good to be back on the sight...Some of the present KU fans have seen me post. I am a die hard UK fan but some of my recent post havent been to popular with UK fans. Most of the stuff has been covered and covered and covered. UK has unbelievable talent coming in....KU has just as much talent and the experience to back it up. Self is a well tested coach with and established system in play, he just has to plug in a few new players and roll on. Kentucky does have gobs of talent but that just wont be enough. We have a new coach six new players, and a new system. That s just too much to overcome. We will be better by the end but still not on KU's level this year. Oh by the way guys dont forget about those Tarheels(blue blood or not damn them) or Michigan St. Also Villanova has an outstandingly good team. This is very debatable but there will also be the George Mason's of the world stirring around constantly. This will be a long season with some good players sure to have academic troubles, injuries,or maybe just trouble adjusting to the college atmosphere off the court more than on. To even be debating this is a true slap in the face to the rest of the NCAA. Odds are truely against either one of these teams making the finals. Now I must admitt I do think KU with there experience has a much better shot, one of the teams KU or UK will probably make it, there that good. Kentucky fans i beg of you have class, and dont start arguements. Even Cal is saying have patients we have too many new pieces to be running our mouths just yet. Now as someone stated at the beginning of this post a KU fan at that if some or all of the recruits come back we will be stacked next year when we have experience. So for now my edge althought not necessarily preference would be that KU does better than Kentucky, but once again its a very long season lets see how this plays out.....Good Luck KU......and as always GO CATS GO! This is one fan who looks forward to a good season of basketball with all its up and downs!

s6u6r6f 10 years, 8 months ago

"If these teams played ten times in the Final Four, the Cats win ten times hands down."

It seems the 60s are a long time gone, but are cats still synthesizing really strong acid in Kentucky?

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Porter,

Apparently it's not here.

Enjoy surfing the Internet looking for intelligent basketball fans.

No need to check back here, we'll just be discussing things like rules, penalties, and the like.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Mr. Porter.

I am going to grant you a little courtesy and extend to you a full disclosure. I never liked Kentucky. I have issues with the past history of your program and it's ethical standards. I have issues with some of your previous head coaches. I Like Billy GIllespie as a coach.

Put it shortly, Kentucky is not my favorite school.

Disclosed.

Let me start at the begining.....

John Wall would probably put up 20-25 in this hypothetical match up..... Meeks Also 20...... maybe two other guys in double figures..... I would give you 70-75 points ( if these kids pass academic Guidelines...... ) Very similiar to Memphis in the title game....they ended with what 69...... ok.. I'll give you and extra 8 and make it 77.....

I've stated numerous times now on our blogs... I don't see anyone in the nation holding us scoring more than 80...... Self team traditionally hold teams down below 40 % shooting and against Great teams They hold them under 45 %

Tell me honestly .... how you can hold this team under 80 points, with a COach that isn't strong at preaching defense.... with a Coach that downplays the importance of Free Throws.... with kids who are GUARANTUED NBA stardom and do not have to WORK at the principles.... and without a proven senior leader ( meek might still go Pro ...... )

i see cole and sherron with 20 a piece. Regardless who we play... as long as they are healthy.....

if they slip i expect Xavier to pick up the scoring slack ... I conservatively have him listed at about 15 points a game ( which is SIGNIFICANTLY below what alot of people will expect out of him ( he's better than Willie Warren .... and Warren averaged 14.6 with less threats around him )

now with that out of the way..... we have 3 other guys who can hit spot up threes at over 40 percent on the bench..... your telling me those three combined cannot score 15 points ????

what about our four headed post presence called the counter-Cole..... they cannot come up with 10 of their own .... between 4 guys..... Heck, If the morrises stayed the same and just had a full season of conditioning they would be averaging a double double..... without withey or robinson being a factor.....

That's about 80 points right there..... and im not really scratching the surface.... That's not adding in Impact players who could also score like Mario Little, Or Elijah Johnson...... Consider we have an On the ball defender who will SPECIFICALLY be tasked with Guarding Wall while he's in..... We have kids who can outmuscle him.... Make him forget his game.... We have that luxury because we ARE SICK DEEP or Consider the Intangibles.....

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Consider the improvement Danny Manning's impact has made on the improved post play since he has become a full time coach.... Consider that Self's the Reigning Coach of the Year.

Consider... we run man 1-3-1, 2-3, box and 1 and any other junk defense Self can throw out there.... and your ball handlers ARE FRESHMAN. Or that we have the bodies to FULL COURT PRESS 40 minutes and not fatigue..... Have you heard of our conditioning coach ???? She's pretty talented.

Consider we will start 1 Freshman Next year. That freshman's role will be primarily a spot up shooter, and Penetrator. Consider he is also ( like wall ) a Top 10 player in this class..... but unlike Wall... he has not outright stated he plans on playing just one year of College ball at Kansas..... He did at Memphis say he plans playing 1 year..... When asked that at Kansas.... he defered.... We'll see what happens.....

Consider, That while your Class IS Amazing. We are a body of experience.... WE have a 25 year old Sophomore who has been training in Professional training facilities for baseball..... We have a 6'10 Forward at midseason wo as three point range... He cose Kansas after watching us LOSE to his former team.... because he liked what he saw of where we will be and are now.......

All said, We have the same size, depth and quickness you do... w just do it with more Grace and a stronger determination than has been shown by your current head coach at previous positions.... ( remember where he cut his teeth in Coaching.... I do .... )

Right now all we have is past history...... and a respectful eye towards the Future..... While I do Believe this Kentucky team is formidable..... I think they are two years away from being able to Challenge us on any of these grounds ( at least two years )

That's about as Civil as I get..... Especially to a team that ran out one of Bill's Friends.

Did I forget to mention he has THAT as Bulletin board also....

justanotherfan 10 years, 8 months ago

As I said in my first post, I think this matchup, if it happens, will be extremely close for a lot of reasons. My first reason is that, by the time you get to the title game, you can throw experience advantages out the window. UK will have won at least a couple of games against big time teams in the tournament, not counting SEC games, non-con, etc.

In short, our slight experience advantage (considering only Collins played heavy minutes for the ChampHawks) will be negligible by the time the title game rolls around. I seriously doubt John Wall, a guy who could play in the NBA next year, will wet his pants because he's in the NCAA title game.

Also, I don't get the all-time UK lineup listed above.

  1. Daniel Orton (Dan Issel?)
  2. Patrick Patterson (Jamal Mashburn? Antoine Walker?)
  3. Eric Bledsoe (Bill Bradley? Tayshaun Prince?)
  4. Jodie Meeks (Tony Delk? Rex Chapman?)
  5. John Wall (Rajon Rondo?)

Of that group, only Wall would have ANY chance of starting on an all-time Kentucky team. Just as probably none of our guys from next year would start on an all-time KU team, its unlikely that any of UK's guys would start on an all-time team. You're talking about two of the most storied programs in college basketball history.

I'm a KU fan and I'm not scared of Kentucky by any stretch. But its foolish to think that UK won't be very good not only next year, but as long as Calipari is there.

DoubleDD 10 years, 8 months ago

What do you want from us Porter, some confirmation that UK is going to be good??? Let us set aside our loyalties for a second and look at this thing with a level head. UK played in the NIT last year, has a new coach, new system, and a new pretty good incoming class. Does this equate to a winning formula??? Who knows??? Odds are though that your going to hit some rough spots along the way. I get it you want UK to be in the spot light uno numreo one again. I know the championships are not even that important, you just want to be in the mix year after year, to be a major player in CB recapture some of that former glory. Now from my side who's not a UK fan per say but a CB fan period and bleeds Jayhawk blood, you guys look desparate. You hired a coach that seems to be very shady. You know win at all cost no matter what kind of guy. Know why KU is has been one of the best CB programs ever, though we didn't always have the best talent??? We have loyalty for our players and program, we don't have a win at all cost approach, and damn sure don't throw players under the bus to win championships. If we did Born Ready would be playing here. KU has class, Bill Self closed the door on recruiting when the alloted scholiees where filled. Porter think about it man. Yea your going to have some good teams in the future, but UK sold their soul to devil man!! I've noticed that most of these new recruits you guys have coming in always say that want to play for Cal, ""notice"" they don't say they want to play of Kentucky. Your basketball team just became a training ground for the NBA, where the players have no allgience to UK what so ever. (((one and done))) Now if thats what you want well good look my man I'm sure you're going to win some games. Keep this in mind as I close, would any of your new recruits go into a hostile environment wearing a T-shirt of UK taunting the fans of that areana before they even started classes at UK. None would do that you say, A KU recruit by the name Elijah did that in your own back yard, that is loyalty my man. That's someone wanting to play at KU. Not once did I hear the X say he wanted to play for Self, it was always I want to play for KU. His Mom and Dad were Jayhawks and he wanted to be a Jayhawk too!! Good luck Porter connecting to a totally different team year after year. Just as long as they wearing UK uniforms right??. Why don't you guys just forgo the whole college experience and hire an NBA team to wear you're jerseies and play your games.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

DoubleDD,

That would be assuming they play only to the top of their potential.... There has been some one and done flame outs also.....

Case in point.... J'mison Morgan and the big kid from Georgetown.... THEY WEREN'T READY.... Maybe they will be after this year......

Jeremy LeMaster 10 years, 8 months ago

Kentucky... welcome back to the party; it's been awhile. I look forward to seeing how well Coach Cal can do in an actual conference (even though the SEC is down, it is a slight upgrade over ConUSA) as well as seeing where Kentucky goes from here. It will be interesting to see how Kentucky fans, Alumni and Administration react to the thugs he brings in.

Do not forget who built your program and where the legacy leads to!

Rock Chalk!!!

Andrew Moore 10 years, 8 months ago

PG: Sherron over Wall for a few reasons: 1. Defense 2. Jump Shot 3. Experience SG: Meeks vs Tyshawn/Brady. This matchup is a wash, Meeks isn't gonna score on Morningstar much, bc Meeks is perimeter shooter and is relatively 1-dimensional as a player. He's the kinda guy that Morningstar would be able to limit. Meeks could not contain the blazing quickness of Tyshawn. No advantages either way for UK SF: Xavier Henry dominates his position in this one.
PF: McMorris/Robinson/Withey vs Patterson. Strength in numbers here. KU over UK C: Cole/Keif vs Orton/Cousins. Cole will own this matchup. Cole is strong and long. Will get to the boards and score over the top. KU big over these two freshmen. Benches: KU by default... UK has no bench. Coaching: KU wins with Self and Manning over Calipari and company. No analysis necessary.

Rick Arnoldy 10 years, 8 months ago

"Benches: KU by default... UK has no bench."

Don't they have 17 players on scholarship? They don't even have enough seats for everybody. Surely, somebody can play.

bigbluebear 10 years, 8 months ago

I'm seeing so much lop sided no since post on here all of a sudden it hillarious. I do think the Jayhawks will be better than Kentucky this year because of experience but other than that it is completely equal. We both have talent good recruits and a number of absolutely talented guys. Kentucky does have a bench. Bledsoe will be coming off the bench behind Wall thats pretty good back up. Not one single person has mentioned Pilgrim who looks pretty damn good to this basketball fan. Stevenson is a defensive presence even though he is kinda small some protein shakes would make him awesome. He has also improved his offense a lot this year. Jon Hood can flat out fill it up and can drive. Orton will be coming off the bench now i know he is a true freshman but honestly as a back up thats pretty damn good. Either Miller or Dodson will be coming off the bench, which ever one of them ends up not starting pretty close there but im hearing Coach Cal does like the kid. So i just can't listen to the fact that Kentucky has no bench thats a floor general two inside players that are talented Pilgrim being experienced orton being a man child. Dodson or Miller either one add athleticism and scoring. Now having that as our second team that leaves both Patterson and Meeks in the starting five with Wall Dodson/MIller and Cousins. Thats ten deep easily and I still didnt place Stevenson in either group as I'm not sure how he will fit in but he's pretty good in his own right. So its not the fatigue issue that worries me or the press. Also not all of our players are one and done Orton will stick around as will bledsoe and Hood with Pilgrim and Dodson. All of these could be three maybe four year players that could play in the NBA. This year the Jayhawks have got Uk's number with experience and experience alone. They will simply handle the grind of the year better. Over the next few years though Kentucky will be awesome as will Jayhawks so as for a matchup of the century I think this should be put off until next year. Coach Cal is a good coach the shady part well I kinda agree with that but a great recruiter and a better than average coach. This whole things is just too new to many new players and a new system for this year. I wish you well Jayhawks you will have a great year this year Kentucky sweet sixteen at best. Next year I will rejoin this conversation as it may have merit until then good luck and have fun cutting down those nets Jayhawks.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

JodyPorter,

Speaking of class, Cliff Hagan was a class act! :-)

Forget about Eddie. He was an active drunk, when he was there. He couldn't have cheated his way out of a paper bag, or at least known he was doing it. And he had no history of cheating prior to landing in Lexington. He had an excuse--a monkey on his back.

Cliff was apparently the corrupt one. Cliff Hagan was the man who apparently got banished from UK sports (and other college sports) for the skeletons in his closet dating back to Joe B's era, or so I have heard. Had they kept Cliff, UK likely would have gotten the death penalty, according to what I recall at the time. Eddie's bottle problems just seemed to bring the underlying, long term corruption to the surface.

Let's put an end to all this poppy cock about class, shall we? Love UK as we do any unruly, rascalous child, class and UK basketball have historically been mutually exclusive (gambling scandals, etc.). Rupp was many things--a gifted coach, a terrific strategist, a great motivator, a fierce competitor--but a class never entered the equation with him, as far as I can recall. What we admire UK basketball for is the excellence it has achieved in winning rings, and in the running game it raised once upon a time to an unprecendented level. And I even admired Slick Rick's rejuvenation of the program and the magnificient team he built with Mercer. But class? Ummm, no.

Now breaking rules? Breaking rules, being willing to pay any price, winning at any cost, these are the sorts of images that persist in my mind regarding UK, and I am among those charitable towards and affectionate towards UK. Every family has a black sheep. Rupp was a black sheep, if ever their were one. He bread a program in his likeness. I am not being judgemental here, just stating facts. Every off spring has to find its way beyond the shadow of the parent. When UK hired Newton as AD and brought in Slick Rick, I thought our off spring had finally grown up. It seemed it had. And when it retained Tubby Smith, I grew very confident that it had fully matured. But when it threw him under the bus, I had my doubts. Tubby was too straight and sober and not enough of a black sheep for a program with the black sheep roots of UK.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Hiring Gillispie was chancey in my mind, because Billie G had black sheep roots, but also some historical baggage with the bottle behind him. But he had also been on the straight and narrow down in Tayhoss for awhile, so I thought, well, UK is making a right move. If Self says Gillispie is okay, then he probably is. And what the heck. Billy was a bit of a black sheep, so he fit the family dynamic Rupp imprinted into the UK program so long ago now. But then they threw Billy under the bus, too, and that made me think, well, Junior, I mean UK, has not really learned its lesson. Its okay to remain a bit of a black sheep as one ages, so long as it moderates its impetuousness and learns the rules exist for a reason. But UK keeps wanting to win at all costs.

Now, the good news is they hired one of ours--John Calipari. I know you wouldn't guess he was from the criticism of him here, but he is one of ours. The bad news is John has a dark cloud on him from allegations at Memphis and questions dating back to UMass. John to me is a natural fit for UK. He's a black sheep and he doesn't drink, so far as I have heard. Hiring booze hounds in bourbon country is just asking for trouble.

I even think there is a chance that Calipari will deliver some temperance to UK. It does not look like a very strong chance right now, simply because of all the allegations floating around in Memphis right now, but I am always optimistic about family. And Coach Cal and UK are family.

.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Porter,

As a fan who was upset when Roy took off, I've got to stick up for our heritage-- he is as classy as they come. The reason he left was our AD at the time. Nobody, who has earned respect, is highly successful, well liked and is doing it the right way, likes getting squashed into a box by a new unbending "boss".

Some of us even root for him when he's in the Final 4 (unless they're playing Kansas). The thing you have to understand is, between Roy taking off, and after Dean became successful at UNC (which took away some of the pain of the loss in 57 to the Tar Heels), we have mostly rooted for UNC from afar. It's like having. Brother a long ways away you respect and does things the right way.

I think most of us would now agree what we have now with Self (who, like Calipari, cut his teeth here first as an asst coach), is even, somehow better. It's like comparing your two grandkids. You love them both, in different ways.

What I like about Self is he has really brought back the fundamentals of Phog Allen basketball back to Kansas. Reading about the 1923 match in Columbia for essentially the National Championship (not granted for years to come) and an undefeated season, confirmed that for me.

Phog's teams were tough as nails. The offense wasn't wasteful, but could move fast if the opportunity presented itself. And the defense, for the time, was tenacious. Just reading about Endacott (now in the Naismith hall of fame) and how many jump ball's and rebounds the 5'10" guard forced that game is very enjoyable. He had Bill Self written all over him. That was his last college game before he played company based pro ball in Oklahoma for the Phillips 66ers (the same team Clyde Lovellete would play for before playing NBA ball).

That game in Columbia was Adolph Rupp's last game as a Jayhawk too -- the second year in a row he witnessed (often from the bench) the importance of team play, the right way, guards boxing out (not only bigs), fighting for the ball, shot selection, cutting in arcs, passing (often touch passing), cutting again until a (good) shot is open, but most importantly -- team defense.

We are proud of Rupp. We are proud of what he built. Calipari is no Rupp. I don't mean that as a cheap shot. Go into your Kentucky basketball museum. Look at the footage of Rupp's practices. That is beautiful stuff. That is all learned from Phog. It's great (especially the man at the free throw line passing with multiple cutters). Those are all drills Rupp took from Kansas. It's nothing, as a UK, fan to be ashamed of. In fact, it's really pretty awesome considering Naismith is right there at most of those practices helping Phog -- surely, like Rupp as a freshman, Naismith's head was spinning at Phog's drills. And grinning all the while, in amazement of a master of the game.

And Roy (like Self, Phog & Naismith) is not a crook. That is fifteen proud years of our heritage you're taking an internet jab at.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Jay,

I appreciate your knowledge, but Billy G is also family.... as he's family of Self's... He's one of Self's boys..... which means he has relevance to us.... he's also Big 12.... which to me might mean more..... Do I defend Bobby Knight with the same fierceness No. But BIlly's a damn good coach.... As Good as Law was..... Law's not bringing AM back from 0-16 to being a middle of the pack contender..... Not under Tony Barone. Not under anyone but a Quality coach.

Yes, Kentucky has "roots" with us... but realistically who doesn't..... Just about every school has KU ties to it..... Part of being a Blue Blood.... you grant favors for everyone.... There's the Rupp angle.... but do we grant Dean Smith leighway in stealing Roy ( thanks again Dean .... )

My point is... If you have a bastard brother.....Someone who keeps going to jail, gets clean finds Jesus and continues to do evil things,returns to jail again and swears he's gonna make it right.... when do we stop believing he's going to make it right.....

There fans don't seem to respect us. There Coach doesn't seem to respect us. ( i rather like him fearing us though ;).... )

Family is a great uniter, it's also an equally powerful divider.... Brothers fought against each other in th Civil War..... I know there is a time for family..... but right now, It seems more like a time for war.... Our coaches protege was just tossed infront of steaming pile locomotive..... G lost Legion to transfer because he thought he should be shooting 20 times a game as a Freshman..... Liggins Underperformed.... so has Patrick patterson to tis point...... gillepsie should have had 2 twenty win teams..... he NEVER EVEN HAD A CONTRACT FOR CHRIST SAKE......

he deserved more than that..... I side with gillespie on this one.

John Randall 10 years, 8 months ago

KY_cats1,You write: "UK has more overall talent (as demonstrated by more future NBA players), greater bench depth, more athleticism, better coaching, and a huge home court advantage with the Blue Mist descending upon Lucas Oil Field. Try matching up with 20,000-25,000 Wildcat fans making that short drive from the Commonwealth. None of the lesser programs out there can counter that level of fan support, period."

Since these comparisons supposedly pertain to Kansas, your score of 1.5 out of 5 puts a serious hit on your credibility rating. Talent - depth - athleticism + coaching -- home court = (capacity +, intensity -)

Since that bunch of @$$tards you call fans ran off Tubby, there haven't been nearly so many "lesser programs" -– or haven't you noticed? In any 'major' conference but pathetically average SEC, recent teams would be well under .500, considering they nearly were when given 6-8 rollover wins a season.

Anything else I can set you straight about?

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Porter,

If Meeks comes back, all the better for college basketball. Maybe he'll come back. If he does then your team actually has a shot at being close to what Memphis would have been (keep in mind Memphis had a stronger returning group than yours and they would have known the system).

Honestly he'd shoot himself in the foot if he does come back. He was the star of the SEC last year. He's a first rounder no problem right now.

If he stays in college, he'd be a starter, but with all the other egos & uncertainty on that team, there's a good chance his scoring will dip to 10 per game. Not even a certainty to get picked up in the 2nd round with all the talent coming out next year.

I'll gladly eat my words if he comes back. But right now your team isn't as stacked as what Memphis' would have been. And... Your players haven't even had a single chance to practice with their coach...

Or have they?

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

100,

They've had some workouts. They were allowed a couple hours a week for a few weeks right after Cal was hired. (Think it was up until the "real" tournament was over...) And after that, they've been able to have "individual" workouts (and by "individual" they mean small groups of two or three at a time....).

And I somewhat agree with you that Meeks would be taking a bit of a gamble by coming back. It'd be hard...nay...impossible to replicate last year's performance. Unless the NBA specifically tells him that they want to see what he can do on a team full of talented players, he may be better off going this year.

I want what's best for him. If he feels he's ready, and some teams tell him they'll take him in the first round if he's available, he should go.

I think coming here to post was a big mistake. It's really tarnished my view of Kansas. Oh well, I'm sure you guys won't be the least bit bothered by that. I'll always respect your knowledge of the game, but that'll be about the extent of it.

Have a great season. If our paths cross, I hope we're able to make it a decent game against you guys. You're going to be loaded, no doubt.

I don't claim that Kentucky's past is squeaky clean. I think it's hilarious, though, that a lot of your guys talk of Kansas's as if it is. :) That, as they say, is priceless.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Porter,

How can you be sorry you came on this site?

You're practically our new best friend.

17 kids trying out for Calipari... (wow)

I really do appreciate your integrity and honesty -- it's just that most Calipari fans on this site haven't shown us the same courtesy.

17 on one court with a coach... Minus one, it kind of reminds me of Dec 21, 1891.

Best of luck next year Porter,

If Meek stays, perhaps the Dream matchup could happen.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

waywardJay,

You were right to call me on this one. I did not do justice to Gillispie. He is a bit of a black sheep. He has had a run in or two. But he seems like a pretty decent guy and he sure as heck knows his hoops as well as, or better than Cal.

I believe we do not disagree about Gillispie. He got a raw deal. He most certainly would have turned it around at UK. Look at what he dragged in even with the knife sticking in his back most of the season. He is one of Self's pals from Illlini and Tulsa days, and he's one of Don Haskins so he's part of the Okie Baller Mafia that we have embraced also. Yes, he is one of ours. I like Gillispie and I wish a spot could be made for him at KU right now. But I'd also ask him to keep his nose clean while in Lawrence.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

JodyPorter,

KU only looks squeaky clean in comparison to UK. KU has had its transgressions and every Jayhawk here is well aware of them. But, wow, and holy cow, we do seem quite like saints next to UK. There's just somethin' about older whiskey, faster horses and more money that tempts a soul, I guess. :-) Seriously, you aren't trying to say KU has been as corrupt as UK, are you? I think that would be a pretty tough assertion to defend without a half a fifth in you.

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

No, no, jaybate, not saying that at all. It's just that I came over here wanting to talk about your great team, and the "potential" for a great match-up with our potentially good team (a lot remains to be seen, admittedly). But instead of that discussion, I get lectured about crap that happened before my dad was even a twinkle in my granddaddy's eye. The stuff that happened under Sutton's watch...oof. I can make no apologies for that whatsoever. It was embarrassing. Pitino ran a clean program. Tubby ran a clean program. Billy bent some rules without breaking them, but still ran a clean program. (He's a jerk, though. I don't mind jerks as long as they win. He couldn't win at Kentucky.) And Cal will run a clean program. If he doesn't, you have my word that I'll come back here and eat as much crow as you can heap my way.

And actually, the more I've thought about it, I like this place. Love your passion. And I don't even mind the senseless barbs slung UK's way. That just means that we're back, and other top teams are taking notice and perhaps even getting a little scared. So flame away.... ;-)

plogjayhawk 10 years, 8 months ago

If by some act of God, Kentucky makes the final game against Kansas, all we have to do is foul Calipari's one and done players towards the end and the game is ours.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Jay....

This is my issue wit the game of basketball right now..... We are in the dawn of a new era.... Old coaches are dying off dinosaurs are becoming legends..... and we are witnessing a rebirth of basketball at hand.....

New Coaches are starting new firefights and some things are going overlooked.

It's great that we as a fan base have this loyalty.... Tis is a fanbase or respect for the game..... but the fanbases on a whole acorssed the nation do not see where their istory and ours are intertwined.....

AS Porter said.... all this happened before he was a twinkle in his granddaddies eye.... they look at Kansas and see a jersey..... they don't see ADolph Rupp... and I think we as a fanbase and a team we need to re-educated them,..... we have for too long looked with a loving eyes at what we have done..... that we are one of the holy trinity..... that we along with a few other schools not only have excellent season in and season out.... that we have imspired history.....

I believe we need to start new history by destroying those who have become blind to their past.... Rick Pitino forgot about that and he learned what it's like playing against Kansas.....

Only tourney games were schedule tehre after.... we need to remind those who easily forget ..... and i can only think of one way of accomplishing it.....

Make Bill te next coaching god. Run off a string of Championships like they did back in the days..... against harder competition... against tougher odds..... put together the type of teams that make lesser teams in awe coming into the phog.

WE need a renaissance, as a fan base..... because i believe that renaissance has been underway for about 5-6 years now.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

"And Cal will run a clean program. If he doesn't, you have my word that I'll come back here and eat as much crow as you can heap my way."--

Entertain yourself as you will. If you want to come and dance here, you've got to deal in reality. We do.

What we've learned over the last few years anyway, is that visitors have often developed certain illusions that they harbor and reinforce among themselves and then try to pass of as reality to people here, i.e., people not living the shared illusion. When we don't comply, they start saying we're flaming them. It is a childish, but recurrent pattern.

Your program has a history of intermittent, serious corruption, certainly more problematic than what has occurred at KU. If you don't know it, then you are living in extreme denial.

Nobody is perfect. We don't deny our problems. You are the one rowing in Egypt here.

Regarding UK being a Final Four team, it flat out won't happen and I don't indulge people in fantasies like this. 100 has a lot of faith in the capacity of reason to reach persons in denial. I don't. I've done my share of time with booze hounds and dysfunctionals over the years. Denial is just something to call out and not indulge.

Now, if you want to talk about how Cal can rebuild UK over the next 2-3 years, I believe he will.

If you want to talk about UK winning 22-25 games due to playing in a weak conference, and scheduling some cupcakes, I believe he might.

If you want to talk about how much potential Cal and UK have for the season after next, because of a good recruiting class, I think UK will be very good two years from now.

But if you want to insist on this goofy-assed notion that they could win a ring next year, well, you're just another dysfunctional fan caught up in denial and I, frankly, don't care whether you want to hallucinate about me flaming away or not.

All the UK posters here should be extremely grateful that the KU fans have a little midwestern humility complex that prevents most of them from not merely calling a spade a spade flaming the heck out of all of you.

Get a grip on yourselves. The folks that think UK is a threat for a ring next year are watching an eye lid movie powered by processed sudafed and moonshine.

You wanna come in the paint here, deal with it.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Time out Jody. You go too far.....

Billy was 40-27 in two seasons at Kentucky.... considering he didn't have "his players" or a contract even..... that is proof he CAN win in Kentucky....

Te problem was he didn't win ENOUGH to satisfy the fans.... and thats something different all together......

Looking at Cal's record historically....

when he took over at UMASS

he took over in 1988-1989

his first two year record is 27-32 without his boys..... and with a contract.... in a marginally less difficult place to coach ;)

They gave him a couple more years and by year 4.... his first recruiting class was seniors.... they won their conference and made it to the sweet 16

fast forward through academic fraud and buying marcus camby ( admited and penalized during a stent in the NBA )

2000-2001 Calipari was hired at memphis......

His two year record was significantly better 48-24 ( a meer 8 wins more than Billy G had with a drinking problem ( according many kentucky fans ) and three losses less.... ) against tougher competition..... without his players.....

Calipari still didn't go to the NCAA tourney at memphis until his third year at memphis.... didn't win a tourney game until his 4th year and didn't make the elite eight until his 6th YEAR.....

Will Kentucky give him longer than a 2 year deal ???? THEY HAVE TO BECAUSE HE HAS A CONTRACT.

In fairness... Gillespie has been a wanderer..... he's never stayed at a university more than 3 years...... ( impressive for such a winning coach.... )

he never had a losing season with AM..... never won less than 21 games..... ( 21 , 24, and 27 to be precise ) never finished lower than 7th in our conference ( his first year )....

His overall record is 140-85. He runs a clean program, and he was a winner at Kentucky.

JodyPorter 10 years, 8 months ago

jaybate (anonymous), I think you're reading way too much more into my comments than is actually there. We're not going to win a ring next year. (I take that back...I think we stand a good chance at the SEC ring...and yes, I'll be damn pleased with that, as it's been awhile since we've even be able to do that...baby steps, as they say). So please, unless you can show me where I "insist on this goofy-assed notion", step down off the horse you're on. (That's a Kentucky pun.)

And too, show me where I'm denying our troubled past. I've admitted our troubled past, and it wasn't until I even HINTED at almighty Kansas's troubled past that some of your posters here finally manned up and admitted that they're not perfect either. I don't think there's a squeaky clean program around. If there is, they don't have a history of winning.

I'm enjoying this banter and this attention. I noticed that Kentucky is a hotter topic on your message boards than any other team in the land (maybe even more popular than Kansas). Last night, I counted 8 threads on the first page (out of 15) that mentioned Kentucky in the title. That's flattering. Thank you!

I'll go back to wildcatnation.net, and try to find the one or two threads (out of about 30 or 40 on the first few pages) that mention Kansas and talk about your team in them. Should be fun.

(And lest any level-headed KU fans out there get the wrong idea...I'm just having fun now. Like I say, I love the banter. But I also love your tradition, and respect the hell out of your contributions to college basketball, past and present. I really only got going in this discussion because a few people were saying Jodie Meeks is overrated. I disagree with that...strongly.)

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

waywardJay,

Well written. I understand your point. I agree with it to the extent you are talking about the future. But, as Santayana wrote: "those that do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it." The it he was referring to was mistakes.

KU is the Daddy, whether anyone remembers or not, whether anyone cares or not. Daddies have to compete in the present and manage the migration into the future. They cannot live in the past. At the same time, they dare not forget their past. It is part of their strength as Daddies. What they know about the past is in the final analysis the difference between them and the off spring. This is where the legacy comes in. This is why I have a bloody grail for an icon. KU has paid a huge price to be the Daddy. It will continue to. Was it Chris Rock who said, "What about the Daddies?! you dumb !@#$%^ers?" He talked about these guys thankin' their mommas and thankin' god, and thankin' every one but their daddies. He then went on one of his beautiful riffs saying, "Who put the !@#$%^ lights on in the house? Who made the !@#$%^ money for the !@#$%^ food on the !@#$% table?" And so on. KU is the daddy of this game. KU is always going to be the Daddy to this game. This game needs a !@#$%^ daddy more now than it ever did, precisely because, as you so rightly point out, we are at the !@#$%^ dawn of a new !@#$%^ age. Dinosaurs are dying. Old posters are dying. The last connections with those who can remember knowing those who knew how the game began are dying. The tele-whores and the click whores and oil-soaked owners of the monopoly media aren't going to preserve the truth about the legacy. Dick Vitale ain't going to preserve it, if he even knows it. Jay Bilas isn't. Tom Keegan? This guy grew up on Buffalo Wings for Christs sakes.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

waywardJay, you don't know how right you are that we are 5 years into the dawn of a new age. Frankly, as Einstein said after the A-bomb was dropped, everything has changed now but the way we think. I am only in my 50s and I know I am to old to know what exactly ought to be done about this new age we are moving into in basketball, and in America. But I know that if we allow the process to make us forget the Legacy, to not remember it, to fail to be the Daddy, then the essense of the game cannot survive. It will be something else. Not necessarily something bad, but almost certainly not something as good. The Legacy is what allows the college game to be something different--a living myth--whether or not anyone knows about it, understands it, or appreciates it.

Oh, yes, waywardJay, you are sooooooooooo right about what you said about a new age.

So this knight (perhaps hopelessly errant) sits in the cave with the grail and a lantern tended and waits for the young like you to say exactly what you did, and mean exactly what you meant, and create the new present that you will, in the faint light of the lantern of the past, of the legacy, whether or not any think it matters.

Why?

Because I know it matters. I can't say how, but I know.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

JodyPorter,

You have passed the litmus test. You are swimming the Big Muddy now and not rowing the Nile. Give me an Amen, Brother.

And we too are having fun. Since 1988, KU Jayhawk fans have had more fun that anyone has had a right to have with and without rings. It has felt so consistently good to be a Jayhawk that I cannot begin to tell you, child. And since Self arrived, after some fitful transitioning, we have found a positively wonderful fit with a head coach who wants to be one of us. This is what I wish for our most famous offspring. I wish you all the peace of mind that we have found after a long period of labor from 1957 to 1987. It was a painful time in the wilderness during those years. Your time in the wilderness will not be so long, because, hopefully, you will have learned something from your Daddy.

We wish you godspeed and a great season and a Coach in Calipari who will do you proud within the rules.

But you know how parents are. They worry about their children, especially their most precocious ones.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Jody Porter,

You sneaky poster you!

"I expected tocome onto this site & have a discussion about your great team & our great team and instead I get a lecture about cr*p that happened before my daddy was even a twinkle in my granddaddy's eye!"

You have officially done the unthinkable. That's like a walk off grand slam Kirk Gibson one handed half swing broken bat homer to win the Series.

I don't care if you root for the Wildcats.

You, my friend, are a Jayhawk at heart.

Your post above, is officially the funniest thing I've ever read on this site.

You just beat lhohman3's Will Ferrel/ Rebecca Romjn post from a week ago, which is saying a lot.

Hey, Jody, when you get to Lawrence, there's a lot more to see than the fieldhouse. They're talking about surrounding the fieldhouse with a few statues (phog is already there). Rumor has it Wilt Chamberlain & Dr. Naismith will be the next to go up, followed by Danny Manning.

If the statues aren't up by the time you travel (maybe for a UK game in a year?), then make sure to swing by the cemetaries. One especially is cool -- Dr. Naismith the inventor lays right there in peace. It is a great memorial there, saluting UK, KU & UNC, all three schools engraved in the rock forever.

There's also beer.

Welcome to Jayhawk nation, Jody Porter -- we're glad you've decided to stay.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Jay.....

The history is the part I love about kansas, but it's pyhrric..... What about the daddies should be the theme of the cause..... Because of regional difficulties because of missed free throws, because our young have forget about their elder's roots and felt pride about themselves we have gone tis way.....

Gordon Gecko's greed is good has been the motto of too many Head coaches....

AS for the new age,

It has to be Bill.... Because he's Old School. and not ashamed of it. He's new school enough to put the old school in these new kids.....

You think Brandon Rush would played defense for Roy Williams ???? You think mario Chlamers woulda shown the second phase of the rebirth ( The first time the 1 seeds unite the "daddies" claim the role..... ) with that nasty friggin dagger at Duke. You think Xavier woulda said..well it's not memphis so it's Kansas ... If the Kansas was actually Louisville ?????

No No No.... College Basketball needs a new god, and for my money it's gotta be Self.

AS for the fans, we need to repsect the pictures on the wall... and realize we are staring at our kids future now..... Right next to Beware the Phog there may be a sign that says "IN Self we trust....." forever in the rafters.....

I never forget the History, Danny ensured me of that.... I was Eight and my dad lifted me on his shoulder to shakes hands with them as they came back in 88..... I'll never forget my first time looking into the face of the past...... but now is the time to make those who have forgotten remember..... and i can't think of any better way than making a new era stick around a while.....

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Great stuff Jaybate,

I've always considered the toughest time for Jayhawks between '75 & '82 (give or take a year).

Let's face it the '66 team was phenomenal, shouldve won it all (kind of like '97 or '98, best team, didn't win it). Texas Western's coach Haskins even said we were the best team they faced that year and they were fortunate Jo Jo's shot was waved off. The '74 team lost to UCLA in F4. And Bud Stallworth brought excitement to KU hoops for what seemed like a decade. Don't forget the '71 F4 KU squad.

For me the we still had great times in the 70's, even late 70's. We won a bunch of Big 8 trophies, just had tough times in the tourney, although I know we beat UNC in '79 (I think at Kemper in an early season game).

Essentially once we hired Larry, and he mentioned his love for Kansas and how Dean always had such great things to say about Lawrence, it felt like, finally we were back on the big national stage that we hadn't seen since the '74 F4.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Jaybate,

Thinking back, the official moment of "we're baaaaaack" happened in a game I believe in 1983 against MSU (Memphis State). They were #4 in the nation. We demolished them, or at least our crowd made sure we won.

Also the early mid80's games against Duke are still some of my favorites. I still remember losing to Tommy Amaker in the Great Alaskan Shootout by a point (give or take), which set up the pregame excitement of the '86 Final4. There might have been one more Duke game in there. We'd often barely lose (Duke had a small national name back then) but they were so good. Even though it took us awhile to really get their number, those mid 80's losses were so enjoyable (except for the 86 F4 game which was dull).

At any rate, just wanted us to make sure we were talking about the same team, because even before we won in 88, the four years before brought the Jayhawk nation back to 1974.

How ironic it all comes full circle -- Memphis (State)

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

And to think Kentucky Kansas won't happen in the near future..... is lunacy. It's damn near a given.... just when....

gaiapapaya 10 years, 8 months ago

I actually saw a group of students doing some sort of sacrifice last year on Naismith's grave on the afternoon we won it all. It was aweome!

100 10 years, 8 months ago

How about this for a matchup:

Our new guys:

  1. Withey
  2. Robinson
  3. X
  4. Johnson
  5. CJ

Versus Calipari's

  1. Orton
  2. Cousins
  3. Bledsoe
  4. Hood
  5. Wall

A season to practice. Who wins?

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

think you got our 4 and 5 mixed up .... i like robinson against orton and withey against cousins......

Greg Lux 10 years, 8 months ago

Tom Keegan your diet is not working but its effecting your brain .. Two BIG EDGE for UK and None for KU ... you are sadly Big on Wrong .. Wish you luck at your next job. I hope its a BIG one ...

BIG?? ... not

justanotherfan 10 years, 8 months ago

This is totally off subject, but its an interesting article about message boards and recruiting.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/11776517

John Brown 10 years, 8 months ago

Kansas who won the Big 12 last year after it was expected to finish 4th.A team that retained all of their players from last year. Kansas will play in a very competive conference with OU, Texas, MU, Texas A&M, Baylor, OSU and KSU. Kentucky, who played in a weak SEC confernce and had a so-so year who will prodominately play a group of Freshman and will again play in a so-so conference. We have an experienced point guard and center. Kansas is deep, two full uncompromised levels of talent deep teams. Kentucky has no bench and will rely on Freshman to run with Kansas the entire game. Kansas = Collins, Tyshaun, Henry, Robinson, Aldrich, then team 2 = Elijah, Henry, Reed, Morningstar, Morris, Morris, Withey,,,,,

Tyler Daniels 10 years, 8 months ago

I was on yahoo reading an article about UK, since everyone is going biserk over them, and while I was reading one of the comments, someone said

"Experience? Way overrated in this day and age of one and done players"

So I commented with this

2009- North Carolina (8 seniors, 4 Juniors) 2008- Kansas Jayhawks (6 Seniors, 4 Juniors) 2007- Florida Gators (3 Seniors, 6 Juniors) 2006- Florida Gators (1 Senior, 3 Juniors) 2005- North Carolina (5 Seniors, 6 Juniors)

I think those numbers prove that experience wins championships, not one and done players! Btw, will Xavier Henry be the first one and done in KU history if he leaves after this year?

Joel Hood 10 years, 8 months ago

HutchinsonJayhawk - Yes, X will if he is indeed a OAD. I'm not so sure he will be a OAD - things have a way of changing.

Here is the KU early exit list based on my memory (please correct if I am wrong):

  • Wilt went pro after 3 years - 1958
  • Norm Cook went pro after 3 years - 1976
  • Paul Pierce went after 3 years - 1998
  • Julian Wright went after 2 years - 2007
  • Brandon Rush went after 3 years - 2008
  • Mario Chalmers went after 3 years - 2008
  • Darrell Arthur went after 2 years - 2008

justanotherfan 10 years, 8 months ago

Hutch..hawk,

I agree with your post to some degree, but your numbers are slightly skewed.

For example, this years UNC teams rotation was 3 seniors (Hansborough, Ginyard, Green), 3 juniors (Lawson, Ellington, Thompson) and 3 freshmen (Drew, Davis, Zeller). The 2005 Carolina title team had 3 seniors (J. Williams, Manuel, Scott), 4 juniors (Noel, May, Felton, McCants) and a freshman (M. Williams)

The two Florida teams played basically the same seven guys both years. Brewer, Green, Horford and Noah all played as sophs in the first title year, along with freshman Walter Hodge and juniors Lee Humphrey and Chris Richard. No seniors on that team played many important minutes. The next year, they added freshman Mareese Speights to the rotation. Humphrey and Richard were seniors, but Humphrey was easily their worst starter, splitting minutes with Hodge, and Richard split minutes off the bench with Speights.

KU's title team had six seniors, but in the title game, only three played (Robinson, Jackson, Kaun). The rotation was a couple of juniors (Rush, Chalmers) and a couple of sophs (Arthur, Collins) and a freshman (Aldrich).

I agree that experience is important, but so too is talent.

http://kenpom.com/height.php?y=2009&s=ExpRank

I have posted the rankings from KenPom ranking all of the D-1 teams in terms of experience. The Sweet 16 teams ranked as follows (out of 344)

Kansas (333), Michigan St. (208), Louisville (150), Arizona (249) UConn (34), Purdue (222), Memphis (116), Missouri (166) Pitt (86), Xavier (190), Villanova (63), Duke (162) UNC (60), Oklahoma (127), Syracuse (175), Gonzaga (52)

In only two regions did the most experienced team advance. Whats more, look at all of the teams not even in the top 100. Only 5 of the Sweet 16 teams boasted top 100 experience. Only 1 had top 50 experience.

So while I agree with your premise that experience is good, you don't have to have an abundance of it. Talent is far more important.

Kentucky won't have a ton of experience, but Meeks will be a senior, Patterson a junior. Stephenson will be a senior. Yes, the rest of the minutes will go to freshmen and sophs, but the freshmen and sophs grabbing the minutes are more talented than the juniors and seniors they will be replacing, and by quite a bit.

rcjh22 10 years, 8 months ago

Is it just me or does it seem Keegan likes Kentucky over KU?

BLUEBLOODKAT 10 years, 8 months ago

By the time these teams meet the freshmen from both squads will have a year of experience behind them. But the UK team has the most talent. So if Coach Cal can get this team to gel I don't believe KU has a chance. On a personal level, I was born in Ky but I always liked KU and then coach Williams. I moved to TX but kept up with them both(mostly UK). Now I have recently (last 2 yrs) moved to KS. and must say I am very dissappointed with their fans. With their tradition and all I was expecting the enthusiasm of a UK fan.:( not so. There were no brackets at work no talk of KU and they won the championship last year. They say Kentucky has the greatest fans in the US maybe the world..."I'll brag here." and now I believe it! For 13 out of 14 years UK attendance had topped the nation. Sorry KU but when it gets down to the nitty-gritty UK rules KU drools.. And remember this When a Wildcat bleeds it's Kentucky blue

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

100,

Yes, '75-'82, those were the dark times, the times when we did not know how to get back to what we had been and were not sure what we could become. They were the times of great doubt about whether KU could ever be great again (insecurity was corroding reason and wisdom regarding what KU could be), the times when the virtue of Midwestern humility became something of a momentary vice, the times when time future and time past did not connect in time present. And yes from the moment Larry Brown took over an electricity emanating from the chest and brain of the mighty mite that was Larry Brown re-energized what seemed, relative to its prior greatness, a moribund program.

But I do not hold, as I once did, Ted Owens entirely responsible for the Dark Times. We all stand on the shoulders of those that came before us, of all the choices made before us, and of all the unforeseen consequences that culminated in our presents. All phases of history have a connected and evolutionary progression of birth, youth, maturity, old age, and dying, before a succeeding cycle (not an identical one, but often a similar, often with a commodius vicus as James Joyce said) can restart. We know not death. But we, all of us, know, whether we know we know: "KawRiverrun, past James and Forrest's, from swerve of shore to bend of sandbar, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Mt. Oread and Environs." Or put another way, the more things recycle, the more they stay the same, only different.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Phog Allen's National Championship team with Lovellette was the peak of the first cycle of KU basketball history. There can be no doubt of that now.

The 1957 team with Wilt should have pushed that apex another notch higher, but Phog was was pushed out and Dick Harp, who should have been a great coach in his own right, got outmaneuvered by Frank McGuire and his new assistant, Dean Smith, and lost a ring that should have iced not only the succession of power in Kansas basketball beyond Allen, but the continuation of the arc of its ascent. But it is very difficult for most organizations to continue the ascent in the Finnegans Wake of the departure of a giant like Forrest Chimpden Allen. And so that '57 loss to UNC became something of a turning point between dreamy ascent and nightmarish decline, though it hardly seemed so at the time to my father and brother that were old enough to be there. The future still seemed unlimited for KU basketball. Wilt would be back.

But something went wrong in that recruiting class that were frosh when Wilt was a sophomore. That recruiting class should have been tremendous, regardless of who was doing the recruiting. Recruits should have jumped over Allen Field House to get to play with Wilt Chamberlain. Perhaps the uncertainty over Allen's future in the three preceding years curbed recruiting. Perhaps, Allen and Harp truly believed Allen's own comic nonsense about being able to win with "Wilton" and four cheerleaders. Perhaps there were injuries to players I do not recall. But it was with that '57 freshman class that should have become sophs eligible to play on Wilt's '58 team that the worm turned irrevocably for KU basketball.

No program, not even the Daddy of them all, can afford to squander the opportunity presented by a Chamberlain and hope to maintain momentum. KU failed to seize the moment with Chamberlain in his sophomore season and then failed to land enough talent for his junior season to be a serious challenger even with the greatest player in the history of the game up to that time. Something went dreadfully wrong there.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

When all is said and done, I believe KU's undoing started when it failed to land a recruiting class of 1957 freshman worthy of Chamberlain in '58; that mediocre '58 season did more to ruin Dick Harp's future and KU's credibility than the unfortunate, but still honorable loss in 1957.

Why dwell on this old news, when we both agree that the dark times were '75-'82?

Because from the moment KU failed to capitalize with Chamberlain, to Brown's landing of Manning, KU never again landed the best player of any high school recruiting class, so far as I can recall, though Wayne Hightower and Jo Jo White may have been ranked close. From that moment, KU never again, until Danny Manning, recruited one of those candidates for best players at his position of a decade, much less of the history of the game.

(Footnote: the failure to put an adequate team around Hightower probably also figures strongly into the calculus of the down turn, also, but Hightower himself did not finally live up to his billing. To me Wayne Hightower, was the Danny Manning of his time, who did not get the coaching that he deserved, or the players that he did. On the other hand, Hightower lacked the champion's character that separates Manning from Hightower and so many others with physical abilities somewhat comparable to Mannings.)

Anyway, KU tossed Harp aside in part because of his failures and in part probably because some of the alumni factions reputedly believed he was spending too much time with FCA and his Christianity and not enough time beating the bushes and Rupps and Newells and Taylors and even Smiths at getting the best talent.

KU could tolerate (barely) UK's prosperity, because Rupp was a black sheep son who had done well. He was entitled to his cut of the talent and besides the gamblers and horse people and liquor peddlers were probably in the background helping him with contributions. But the idea that Fred Taylor at football school Ohio State and Ed Jucker at lowly Cinncinati could wind up with talent like Jerry Lucas, John Havlicek, and Larry Siegfried, and Oscar Robertson and Jack Twyman and just take over college basketball with the best talent was flabberghasting to KU. It was like the barbarians had taken over. And they had. Even Jerry West wound up at West Virginia. And egg heads like Pete Newell even were winning rings at egg head schools like Cal with nothing more than Darrell Imhoff. And there was always UK running faster and faster and faster, getting great white player after great white player, though cruelly and wrong-headedly staying lilly white under the racist Rupp.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

And among those in the know, those truly knowledgeable of the game, there was this young guy, a really righteous pain in the neck, this former Purdue All American that everyone had forgotten about for quite awhile, this John Wooden relentlessly building a program on the verge of being capable of cornering most of the then burgeoning SoCal talent.

And also among those in the know, there was the keen realization that once Dean Smith cleaned up the corruption that he had briefly but significantly benefitted from and inherited (i.e., Frank McGuire's New York City underground railroad that allegedly brought the tough Irish and Jewish kids to Tobacco Road with side payments from Gotham gamblers), Dean fully intended to open the gates to all the great African American players who wanted to play--no quotas, no color ceilings, no looking down the nose at the greatness of play ground ball, no refusals to help African American players enter coaching, no prejudice at all, at least little as was possible from a kid who grew up in a still-potently-prejudiced time in a small Kansas town. Yep, the Deaner was going to grab up all those "black kids" that had been playing at lowlies like UCinn, floundering big apple programs, and on the fringes at all the A&Ts and A&Is and Gramblings in the South and open a blue blood program up to them pronto. Dean wanted to win and he knew that if he patched those African American kids with the New York City kids (think Larry Brown here) that would still come simply because of the aura of the legacy of McGuire's Underground Railroad to UNC, that he could put more talent on the floor than anyone, save maybe the perhaps even more racially progressive Wooden in Westwood. And Wooden? Well, Dean must have though: the BoWash corridor, the mid south and the deep south still had more population to draw from than Wooden did in SoCal, and waaaaaaaay more African Americans. And UNC, though troubled with recent corruption, was still a legitimate blue blood program, where as UCLA was still kind of a football/track school and academic step sister to UC Berkeley at the time. The Deaner, inside the organization he was building in Chapel Hill, could handle Wooden no problem, or so it seemed prior to Woodens first ring in this ear.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

The preceding then was the context of college basketball at the time Harp was dumped and Owens was hired. The great Allen was long gone. The great Iba had not so much grown old and out of touch, but rather had realized way before most that if you could not land the great African American athletes in large numbers, well, then you better slow it down even more. You better run the weave even more. You better control the tempo, or be controlled by an opponent's African American athleticism. And Iba probably realized that the great Caucasian American players in the big cities would begin to emulate more and more the more athletic aspects of the African Americans. Everyone learned from everyone in basketball; that was one of the great things about it. It was democratic in that sense.

And everyone thought Henry Iba had descended into some kind of basketball senility. He kept playing slower and slower. Not only did he not embrace the new athleticism and the new running game, he seemed, to many who should have known better, to be retreating into his past, to be fleeing the new age. But I believe the reality was somewhat different. Like many masters of advancing years when confronted with major structural change, Iba understood the strategic implications and ensuing talent requirements even more profoundly than most. And where as most only had the IQ in the brain case sufficient to go with the flow, to be sheep and follow the leaders, Iba was a truly creative old son of a gun, and long time maverick to boot.

So: Iba said to help with the sheep gig, because as he had learned over the years operating in Allen's shadow: sheep get sheared. Got forge ahead on a strategically advantageous counter move, no matter how unorthodox and out of step with the present it may seem. Iba and Doyle Parrot got even more defense minded down in Stillwater, if that were possible. Both Iba and Parrot, though a generation or two apart from each other in ages, were too old and had too little time to develop the next progression of his game fitted to the changes that were at last coming fast and furious by the mid 60s. But Iba and Parrot were not to old to scheme what had to happen over time, nor were they too old to fail to communicate it through their apostles--to Haskins, Eddie and Hartman, and through this brash, weird, foul mouthed kid of Fred Taylor's named Bob Knight at Army. Knight got it, even though he wasn't one of the inner circle.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

But at the time of Harp's sacking at Kansas, none of these apostles and accolytes had wiggled their ways into a blue blood program. And so none of them were really in line to be seriously continued for the KU job.

And the KU people, even though they understood they were in some trouble, thought the key to the future lay entirely with recruiting and that the key to recruiting lay in recruiting the midwest better than they had been doing. They thought recruiting Kansas City, St.Louis, Omaha, Chicago, and the very populace states of Illinois and Iowa, rather than trying to drag kids out of Philly and so forth, were the way to move forward--to restock the cupboard and to keep it restocked. And there was a guy right on the Harp staff who was young, and intense, and personable and believed he could win consistently by recruiting Texas to Chicago and picking up a few odds and ends from both coasts. His name was Ted Owens. He was an Okie, a Bruce Drake Okie out of OU, which made him at least preferrable to one of those dyed in the wool Iba hard scrabble guys. There was a lot of competitive bad blood between Kansas and Okie State persons over who was better--Allen, or Iba. KU people took real offense to such comparisons. Allen was god. Iba was at best a lesser angel, and when he sat on the bench roaring and bellaring over the KU band that Allen had placed directly behind him every game, KU fans grew to despise Henry Iba. He gummed up KU everytime they played, whether Allen, or Harp, or Owens was coaching against them. He didn't bow down. He came up with annoying schemes that gummed things up and slowed our better athletes down to the speed of a bunch of red clay Okies.

But back to Ted.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Allen and Harp knew and trusted him, had tutored him, mentored him, and saw him as intelligent, and driven, and a straight shooter, and a guy with the youth necessary fire in his belly to get out there and beat the bushes for the recruits. KU needed a travelling salesman now. It wasn't enough to call or mail. It wasn't enough to offer invites. It wasn't enough to say you were the father of all of college basketball. It was the beginning of the what have you done for me lately age. You had to be able to live out of a suit case to recruit the huge trade area that seemed available to KU--the trade area not on either coast--the trade area that corresponded to some extent with the path of Gleener combines migrating each year from Texas to Canada, but which dog legged short into Chi-town. Hiring Ted would not only bring youth and vigor--he was exceptionally, ground breakingly young for a head coach at a major program in those days--he would maintain the connection with the legacy. He knew what KU meant. He had been imbued with the words of Allen and Harp. He seemed like a perfect fit, even though a few of the most knowledgeable, and independent thinking KU persons (my Dad for one), always wanted Ralph Miller. Some also fancied Dean, but the Deaner had not recovered from slights at not getting hired at KU immediately after graduating and then again when Harp got what was then (1956-1957) probably still "the job" in college basketball, at least for KUers, but probably for everyone who knew squat about the history of the game.

It is my recollection from word of mouth from the generation preceding mine that much of the KU faithful at this time rationalized KUs misfortune as a combination of Harp's inadequacy as a closer in recruiting (too honest and too unwilling to grovel) and a ton of cheating unpunished at the aforementioned schools. Again, Owens seemed like the ideal guy. He had landed a few good ones under Harp. He was comfortable with African American kids (i.e., he wasn't overtly prejudiced) and was willing to play as many African Americans as the alumni value system could accept, which at the beginning was probably not more than half, but as time passed came to be as many as it took to try to be competitive. And he did not mind admitting that the state of Kansas no longer had enough population to generate sufficient talent to win big. He was an Okie after all.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

So the age of Owens dawned and Ted made Sam Miranda his recruiting Willy Loman and Ted and Sam said, "we can make down state Illinois ours" because the Illini have fallen on hard times and no one else up there seems to care that much about these 50,000 to 300,000 person Illinois towns that much. And Ted-Sam did to a large extent. And so a formidable flow of talent began to gravitate to KU from Illinois, particularly from the Peorias of that state, but also from East St. Louis and so on. They worked Chicago and St Louis, too, and got some guns there, but much of the talent came from outstate Illinois, where there were tons and tons of 50,000 to 300,000 person towns with talent KU still had enough rep to grab. And there were smatterings of kids drawn from everywhere from Galveston, TX, to International Falls, Minnesota, I suppose. And the occasional DeMatha kid. And so on.

Alas, this talent was not the best talent available in America in any given year. But it was good and it was large in quantity and Ted Owens knew how to scheme it to get the most of it in the sense of using numbers to beat less talented teams. Ted knew how to play to strengths. He did not know so much about how to mask weaknesses, and about how to get the most out of his players, or how to keep from ruining shooters strokes, but I digress.

Ted quickly reached the magic 20 W per season numbers and very shortly put the great 1964 team on the floor. But that 1964 team betrayed the Achilles heel of Owens' Allen/Drake hybrid game. It was a slow down game at a time when the increasing athleticism of African Americans was speeding the game up. Ted and Sam could attract some fine perimeter players, but he could never land the superior big man of any class, and this at a time when the trajectory of athleticism in hoops was now being felt at every position, not just at center and PG, but at 2 guard, small forward, and especially big forward.

Truth be told, Ted produced many fine teams, at least two that could have won it all with even a little luck--White's team and Robisch's team. White's team got upended by a weird call on the way to its appointment with destiny, while Robisch's team got caught up in the meat grinder of UCLA's near professional grade of talent. Regarding Ted getting his head handed to him by UCLA, the same thing happened to every great program of the era, of course. People forget that Dean was reviled during the Wooden reign as a guy who couldn't beat Wooden, or win the big ones.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

So: Ted failed to seize the moment in 1964 and from then on, whether or not Ted Owens could have adapted and recovered (and I believe his fine team with Roger Morningstar and Greenlee and Kivisto that got to the Final Four playing a running game proved that he could have), well, KU's ferociously divided alumni factions prevented Ted from ever really mobilizing the concerted effort necessary to put KU back on the map. Facilities were not modernized when and how they should have been, because no one could agree. Ted could not get the backing necessary to seem like a guy who would last, even though the gridlock among the alumni factions lead to him lasting perhaps longer than he should have.

And as time dragged on, Ted and Sam failed again and again to bring the great big man to KU, failed increasingly to bring the best guard, or the best forward to KU. And when they did get a truly promising player, either that player did not pan out, or the player panned out but there was not enough talent to go with him.

From the time of Walt Wesley on (and Walt had his limitations too), the KU big men were many in number but never the equal of what was on the floor at UCLA and UNC, to name just two in any given season. And slowly Ted and Sam got tarred and feathered in the national media as coaches of plod ball and as recruiters of big slow farm boys, even though nothing could have been further from the reality regarding big man recruits. Under Ted and Sam, KU saw an endless run of tall African American bigs from urbanized communities that were usually mobile, but too skinny (Rick Suttle), or solid but too slow footed (pick among several), or strong and mobile but too short and brooding (George Unseld). And KU also saw a steady stream of tall Caucasian American bigs from 50,000-300,000 person towns (hardly farm boys) that were sometimes plodders, and sometimes too skinny (but again rarely farm boys) to really matchup well with the bigs at the leading programs of the time.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

And as the memory of the '52 Championship receded into the dark ages with the televising of basketball, and thus the erasing and replacing of the collective memory of the minimally televised past, with the then modestly televised present (television largely wiped out the word of mouth passing of the legacy, frankly, until the internet), and the plod ball slurs, and the failures of KU's occasional Final Four team to grab the ring, the Dark Times descended.

The above gets at the dynamics that lead to the Dark Times. KU must always remember them, so that it does not repeat them. What should be learned?

KU must always select strongly principled coaches in terms of their basketball game they coach. Harp and Owens had this. They can't be married to the past, but they have to respect it. Harp seemed married to the past, Owens less so, but still too much. They need some charisma. Harp and Owens lacked this quality. Brown had it. Williams developed some out of his fanatical pursuit of success, though it was more like respect. Self reeks of it. The coach must be part of the forward procession of the game, regardless of whether it is highly orthodox at the time, and regardless of whether it is consistent with KU's historical legacy of how the game is played. It is called embracing change. But it can't be a fad change, even if everyone is going to it. It has to be profoundly principled. It has to have valid philosophy underpinning. It can't just be scheme that kids trying to get drafted like. It has to prepare them for bigger and better things, both in life and in the L for those few that go there. And the KU coach must be a person capable of going after and attracting at least some of the very best players. KU cannot persist as a successful program with coaching that hamstrings itself; that prevents itself from competing for the best players, regardless of where they are. KU doesn't need to land all of them, or even most of them, but basketball players understand that to be the best you've got to have some of them, maybe just one of them. Don't bring knives to gun fights. Bring a ten gauge if you can.

The Dark Times began to lift when KU brought a ten gauge coach, Larry Brown, and ten gauge player, Danny Manning, to town. And Brown found schemes and inspirations that got more out of the considerable talent that Ted Owens left him. And KawRiverrun, past James and Forrest's, from swerve of shore to bend of sandbar, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Mt. Oread and Environs.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Erratum: Sorry about referring to the Great 1966 KU team as the '64 team.

Carrucan 10 years, 8 months ago

You all don't think UK will contend for a championship this year? Lets think about this.. Cal's Memphis team had a great kansas team on the ropes 2 years ago. That was Rose, CDR and a pretty good but not great front court.... AT MEMPHIS. Now he's bringing in the best point guard in the land to a program like Kentucky and you all don't think Cal will contend for a championship this year?! Hahaha, If you all get to the final game you will be underdogs. Jodie Meeks is one of the purest shooters in the country -- dont give me percentages from weeks when a drunk texas jag off was riding his ass. Wall, Meeks, Patterson, Cousins, Orton, Dodson, Miller.... North Carolina and Miss. St. have the only frontcourts in the nation close to us. Meeks-senior, Patterson-junior... there's your experience... How many lottery picks will Kansas have on the floor?

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

dynomitehawk,

Active?

K & Roy yes,

Slick maybe. He won a ring after all back in the 20th Century.

Cal? Again, UK rows in Egypt.

The Wildernesscats (what they are until they come in from the wilderness and start winning again) are drinking too much of the John Daniels.

Self and Calhoun are better than Cal until Cal proves otherwise.

Rings talk. Talk of rings is the rhetorical equivalent of lighting your own you-know-whats.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

BlueBloodKat,

What a bunch of cr*p.

It's obvious you root (bleed) for Kentucky.

Your comments about Kansas are quite obviously completely made up. Well in certain parts of Kansas I'd believe you. It's kind of like living in Shelbyville KY, 10 miles outside of Louisville and being surprised no one watches UK in the NIT. So your story could be true if you're talking about the Western part of the state for sure. What city did you live?

However everything you've said about Kentucky seems quite obviously true.

If you're gonna try to pose and make us feel bad about ourselves at least visit the fieldhouse first.

Rupp is surely frowning on 99% of you UK internet posers right now.

By the way why has Calipari called a press conference on a Saturday morning of a 3 day weekend? (seems like a good time to avoid a week of bad national press to me whatever the breaking news out of Lexington will be)

Any thoughts on what he'll be discussing?

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrycan,

Your UK biased lottery pick question is a good angle that hasn't been analyzed.

Number of LP's at UK: 2 (Wall, Meeks)

Number of LP's at KU: 2 (Aldrich, X)

What you need to keep in mind is experience & coaching. You are definitely on to something -- if UK's breaking & entering kids decide to stay for 4 years (and are all qualified) they should win at least one.

But let's be realistic. Cal sells this bag of goods every year to kids ("it's all about you, I want you in the NBA as soon as possible, that's what my offense is designed for, you the athlete and what's best for you and your teammates, and I want you to know if you can't play, I can't hide you in my offense, I'm sorry but I just can't.... Kid quit lookin so dopey... Listen... So after Wes hands you a rather heavy envelope I will hand you some paperwork to be one of 17 players on my team..."

If (and with Meeks you have a shot), if you guys don't win it this year (or like many Memphis fans seem to think) if your coach is caught again by the NCAA, what happens next year? If you have SOOO many NBA players who signed to go to the NBA, what happens to your lineup when Missiri beats you in the 2nd round on a 3/4 JImmy Bean quart shot?

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucan,

Oh, my, we just stay up late at night worrying about Jody Meeks, the pure shooter, and your green front line.

Playing in the slumping SEC, you just don't see as many stand outs as we do in the B12. Every year we have one, or two, or three super men, in addition the greats on our own team.

We are used to playing truly exceptional opponents like Kevin Durant, Acie Law, Michael Beasley, Demarre Carroll, Craig Brackins, and Damion James, in our conference, to say nothing of the nonconference studs we regularly schedule, and the other great ones we play when we go deep in the tourney.

Frankly, Jody Meeks probably isn't as good as any of the guys on the list I just mentioned, but even if he is, we have been able to beat twice, or split, with the teams all these guys played on. We eat superstars for breakfast. Sometimes we shut them down, other times we give them their points and hand cuff the rest of their team, but defense is always our ace in the hole. Self Defense thrives on the challenge of playing guys like Meeks...if he's as good as you say. KU takes as much pride

Regarding your front line, ooooooooooooh, what will we ever do against them?

At 5, Aldrich is better than any of your 5s and his back up Markieff Morris, will contain anything you have at the 5, if Aldrich gets a few early fouls.

At 4, Marcus Morris, Jeff Withey and Thomas Robinson will just wear down any UK 4 and then beat him to a bloody pulp if we have to get physical.

XHenry, Brady Morningstar and Mario Little will put a straight jacket on Meeks and he will shoot 5-10 pts below his average.

Our backcourt is so much better than yours that there is nothing to even talk about there.

Bye.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Jaybate,

Great analysis of KU hoops history.

I asked you a few months back & I'll ask you again. Five seconds left, down one, what should Harp's team have done to win that game (That low entry pass to Wilt still ticks me off).

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Right now the difference between a UK visitor and a Memphis visitor is the difference between a whiskey drunk and crack head. Memphis folk--the crackheads--seemed to be lacking brain function. The UK folk--whiskey drunks--seem to be in denial.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Jaybate,

By the way Jaybate, only to make us all know more.

You had said "Dean was one of McGuire's" assitants.

Actually that wasn't true. Read Dean's book sometime.

He was as heartbroken as any Jayhawk that Chamberlain & KU got beat. (He cried in front of McGuire).

The only reason he was asked to be on staff WAS BECAUSE of that game. McGuire saw Deans passion (seriously for ku). And he got to know him and saw the mind of a Basketball blue blood.

In short Chamberlains loss was UNC's gain exponentially.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

100,

Wilt should have been posted on the back side block facing across the lane toward the ball on the wing. He should have one stepped and jumped up with hands a foot and a half above the rim. He would have had one, maybe two guys on his shoulders, but he was strong enough even then to handle it. The feed should have gone to him above the rim, and he should have crammed it and UNC down into the nether regions of hell; that way the 49 percent chance of him missing the foul shot from the hangers on on the dunk would not have mattered.

Once upon a time, I dreamed a Star Trek episode--the original with Shattner as Kirk and Nimoy as Spock. I dreamed they came through a time warp to Earth in 1957. I dreamed Kirk's ancestor had gone to KU and played for Phog Allen and was an old man nearing death. He was in a wheel chair and had spent every thing he had to scalp a ticket for he and his grand son--me--to come to the '57 national championship, because he knew he would never live long enough to see another season. I never did understand why Spock and Kirk had come to earth, or why they were running around in disguise, but there they were. Spock was wearing a blue stocking cap to cover his ears. Kirk had gotten a KU letter jacket some how or other. These were their disguises. Kirk and Spock didn't care at all about the game. They were in the arena trying to get to a transporter coordinate to be beamed up by Scottie. Their beam up time coincided with the end of the final OT. On the way to the coordinate, they walked up to one of the openings that lead from the concourse out to the arena to check the time left on the clock and saw me and my grand father, who really didn't look like my grand father at all, in the wheel chair. I was eating a frosty malt beside him. Somehow Kirk recognized the old man as one of his ancient ancestors. He was stunned and stopped in his tracks. He could not help but talk to the old man, who was nearly wrung to death by all the over times. There were only a few seconds left and KU was behind. The old man was already crushed at the apparent likelihood of a loss. Spock told Kirk there wasn't much more time.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

The kid, me, told Kirk he would give anything for KU to win for the old man. Kirk whipped out his phaser, shielded it inside his unsnapped, parted KU letter jacket, and switched the dial to tractor. [I don't think the phasers in the shwo had a tractor setting, but in my dream they did.] He smiled at the old man and aimed it down toward the court. Spock grabbed his shoulder and said, "Captain, you are about to break the prime directive." Kirk did not hesitate. Kirk said, "In command, Mr. Spock, there are times when the prime directive must be interpreted." Kirk fired his phaser on tractor beam at the ball before it could be fed into Wilt. He took hold of the ball with the beam, and sent it arcing up above the hoop. Wilt one stepped and leaped up for a commanding two handed slam. KU won and bedlam broke out. The old man died then and there with a smile on his face. I was in tears. And Kirk looked down at me and said, "It is alright. It was his time to die. It is alright. It is alright." And then Kirk and Spock dematerialized and I was left standing there with an usher shaking me, saying we have to get help. I said, "It is alright. It is alright. It is alright." And I awoke. Alas, KU had still lost in the real world.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

100,

That is the best news I have heard in a long time about Dean. I am so glad to know some favorable truth about him. I want to like Dean Smith. I want to believe he is a Jayhawk underneath. But between the powder blue blazer at the Field House and the "Can't recruit east of the Mississippi" blood oath Roy had to take with him, and his obvious willingness to tamper with KU basketball during pursuit of a ring, I have not been able to find it in my heart to trust him anymore. I believe Dean is an exceptional person and a good one, but in my heart of hearts I do not think Dean Smith feels any more loyalty to KU now, than Phog Allen felt to Central Missouri State after a long career away. KU became Phog's home. UNC became Dean's home. This is not wrong, but it also does not mean we should treat him as someone still fundamentally loyal to KU. He's a Tar Heel. And I believe I did read his book once upon a time and forgot that part. I do believe I need to read it again.

Carrucan 10 years, 8 months ago

Aldrich is nowhere near strong enough to handle patterson, cousins or orton.
sorry.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucan,

I would make sur eyou scoped orton's knees, Cousin's ego and Patterson whole friggin body before you make such statements about aldrich.....

Aldrich had a Triple DOuble in the NCAA TOURNEY wit what self calls a stress reaction ( which to me reads stress fracture ) in his foot....

Patterson would have Tracy MCGradied that injured ..... and COusin's doesn't show enough AAU effort to GET a stress reaction...... Orton however... plays through pain well... I approve of him.....

As for the Best Point guard in all the land John Wall..... I have heard of his type before.... They said the same damn thing about Tywon Lawson..... one and Done., A real Diaper Daddy..... The type of Point guard you DREAM ABOUT.... He's awesome baby..... and you know what... took him 4 years , but he did when a title... Now he won't even be the best NBA PG from UNC in the league.,....

Such a Shame, really it is.....

Hype is a strange thing, and in such a place of hype..... ( specifically in tobacco country ) I never believe the hype until i see it..... From where I sit... Bledsoe's got more street cred to me...... because he's one of those under the radar types.....

PLease let him play a few games in college before you call him the best.... Someone like DOminic James deserves to slap[ you upside the head with his crutch for that non-sense... there is a list of PG's 319 teams long who have played more college games than this kid.....

Is he talented ./..... Hell Yes. Could he be the best by March or April.... Why Not ????

But right now, He's a high school who has not passed his requirements to get into college,,,,, He needs to work a little bit less on his J an get his damned academics in line because if he doesn't .... Your little buddy John Wall will be playing in GREECE next winter, not for a man who wears too much Hair grease ......

Go to Rivals .... look at the list of PG's who are ranked in college.... and you can take your pick of any one of them...... all of them in my eyes are better than JOhn Wall Right now..... maybe not by december or even january..... but until I see it..... I won't believe it.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

As for your BEST POINT GUARD IN THE LAND...... I see your point guard position with sherron and Elijah...... and I put you all in........Play the game right now..... let's see who comes out on top .......Wiat ORton's not healthy... Cousin's is slacking in AAU..... and Meeks is currently headed to the LEAGUE...... feeling hesititant..... Let's schedule it for November when Sherron's healthy and COle's healthy and all our guys are in tip top.....

Cousin's will still be slacking...... Orton's knees might be healthy you won't know for sure until about september...... Meeks might be a pro..... John Wall maybe in Greece, oir possibly prison if tat whol Breaking Into a VACANT HOUSE thing shows up..... and Patterson may because Ron Mercer used the wrong Gym wax when waxing Rupp Arena and caused Patterson to break his left toenail ..... which will cause him to miss the rest of the season....

WE can wait until March too.....

OUr hawks will be rested after cruising through the big 12 tourney as the deepest team in the big 12......blew out the quarters and semi's opponents and rested the big guns.... heading into the championship match with Oklahoma and Willie Warren.... X takes it personal when Willie while trash talking calls himself the best Oklahoma player on the court...... ( including the Clippers number 1 draft pick Blake Griffin who is back cheering on his boys because of a freak Knee injury caused by being drafted by the Los ANgeles Clippers..... )

Kentucky will have been battling in confernece because Patrick Patterson's toenail injury caused Cal to play two Young Forwards two much too early ...... One who was out of shape.... the other who has been battling injury after injury since joining the team... but still fights it out like a warrior every game out..... Eric Bledsoie is the Conference Rookie of the year after hitting the weight room like crazy chanting John walls name while benching his way up 20 + pounds of weight..... Speaking of JW... He's signing with an agent in Greece and is about to get drafted ALSO by the Los Angeles Clippers ( beware the knee Injury ) as they will draft him shortly after the Oklahoma City Thunder Draft Tourney MOP, and Two Time Champion Cetner COle ALdrich who proved he was the best big man in the game once Blake left.....'

Of Course, this is a dramatization.... it could actually play out this way it could go anyway...... X henry might be the MOP.... Possibly sherron Collins.... Could even be Connor Teahan who goes Gerry McNamara and starts hitting shots all over lucas Oil drum in the title game

My point is.... We will take you on any game any time..... Bring which ever boys Cal get can get eligible...... just please, Don't cry if you lose on free throws......

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Jay,

I must say.... I never expect to hear you say an old Jayhawk was no longer a Jayhawk...... In my heart, I hope Dean wakes up someda and realizes he could have had both traditions......

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucan't,

Cole will go higher in the NBA draft than Patterson.

Cole would dominate Patterson.

Patterson would come out for the second half in crotchless UK shorts saying, "Thank you, Master Cole. Use me as you wish."

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Jaybate,

Highly correct on Cole vs Patterson. Those would be his exact words.

As for Dean....

Deep in this guy's roots, entrenched in the dirt of Emporia & limestone of Topeka & Lawrence, the man, whether he's been fighting it or not for 49 years is a Jayhawk.

You're a highly literate reader & writer, you know the drill.

It's just human nature.

The foundation is the thing.

The trunk is the thing.

Even Vader, laying on his back, eventually found his God particle...

"Luke, tell your sister... You were right."

Jaybate, you are Luke, Dean is Darth...

He'll come around.

Carrucan 10 years, 8 months ago

ok I was wrong in saying Aldrich is nowhere near strong enough. I wouldn't say he's at a big disadvantage in strength. He is not an athletic player who can put the ball on the floor, but yes he is solid down low. The upside of Cousins is more than enough to take care of Aldrich. With Patterson facing the basket from 15 feet out, and Orton coming off the bench, your front line will have its hands full. Can Cole run the floor fast enough to keep up?

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Jaybate,

Your time machine Wilt Chamberlain in triple OT play has me cracking up.

The thing is it would've worked. The ENTIRE thing that has always angered me was that Dick Harp didn't have his guys coached (in a critical moment) to throw it where no one else could catch it. He threw an entry pass to Wilt at the free throw line, 9 feet high.

Yours on the other hand is the play that would work in high percentages. You nailed it.

In short, you have Wilt. Wilt can get his hands two feet higher than anyone else on the court. Throw it HIGH Dick Harp!!!!! (and please get him closer to the basket).

That game all by itself set up the Dark ages for us. Dean cried and went to UNC. We lose recruits (think of the line of recruits after Wilt slams UNC into heel hell as you described in triple OT for the title).

With that loss we also lose two more. We would have owned '58 and '59.

All of this, in my book is not ultimately Harp's fault. It's the people that pushed Phog out.

Cost= three (back to back) NCAA titles in the 50's & a loss of 40 years of Dean Smith.

Jaybate why weren't you on Coach Harp's bench?

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucan.....

Cousin's couldn't take cole in 2 years...... be real with yourself...... Cousin's strength would be outside game that he's not working on in AAU...... Orton's got the physical body that could compete with Cole but isa question mark because he just came off knee surgery.....

Kentucky has a young front court that in 2 years will be outstanding... but right now.... the 1,2,3,4 best big men on the floor will be Kansas's starters and they next two off their bench...... BANK IT.

our 5th right now is thomas robinson .... and it's debatable that HE may be better than orton or cousins.... better work ethic... reboudnign machine.... high motor.....

Your strenght and i say your only strength..... is you have Jody Meeks ( maybe )..... i use the same argument I use in comparison with your stud recruit and ours..... Meeks is a player... X is an unknown..... i give you the advatnage there otherwise..... YOu got a 20 point beat down and 40 point loss in Allen

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucan,

Good lord! Cole is extremely mobile for a 5 and can most definitely run the floor with Patterson and Cousins. He's probably quite a bit faster than Orton until Orton loses his baby fat his sophomore or junior years.

The big question is: how will Patterson and Cousins adjust to having about 3-5 of their shots blocked, and another 5 or 6 shots having their trajectories altered by Aldrich's incredible wing span?

Another big question is: How will Patterson and Cousins when Aldrich beats them to two thirds of the rebounds they contend for? Aldrich is a true 5 with an incredible gift of anticipation in rebounding. Patterson and Cousins are going to be playing out of position at the 5 trying to guard Cole. It will not be pretty for either of them. Orton two years from now will play Cole decently...oops, he won't, because Cole will be gone as a lottery pick after this coming season.

Also, I guess I have to reiterate this for you: our depth at the four is going to overwhelm whatever one or two good 4's you have to put up against them. Start Orton at the 5; then while Cole is blowing Orton completely off the court because of Orton's inexperience, we rotate three very athletic and talented 4s on Cousins, and reduce him to a fouled up, beaten down youngin' with 14 minutes to go in the second half. And our three fours just keep coming.

Trust me. We were shallow and inexperienced at the 4 last season. Its a bad combination that required a coach of Self's skill to mask. Calipari has never evidenced this ability to mask weaknesses. He's gotta have more horses. And next season he is going to be operating with a decisive disadvantage in numbers and experience at the 4.

And if Cal goes with a 4 like Cousins at the 5, the true 5 Cole slowly overwhelms the talented youngin' Cousins with experience and with a backup in Markieff Morris who bangs Cousins into the next century for the middle six minutes of each half, all the while Patterson is worked over into a bloody pulp by our three-man rotation at the 4. Ouch! In this scenario, your two best bigs are hamstrung in mismatches and numbers games that wipe out your inside game on offense and let our guys run wild on offense the last 15 minutes of the game because your two are all fouled up by then.

I would much rather talk with you about UK's material and how Cal can use it to make the best team he can and maybe win the SEC. Most on this board like to talk Xs and Os and what if strategies regardless of the team, because they just love the game. But if you insist on dragging these smart folks into ludicrous discussions about UK contending with KU for a ring, well, no matter how you put it, all you are going to hear is the truth: no freaking chance at all!

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrycans$,

We have the entire summer to debate specifics of this matchup where according to your UK buddy, "UK will win 10 out of 10!"

As for now your argument is extremely weak. YouTube these supposed studs you are referring to. Watch the film. Who are they playing against. If you taped the McD game take another look. Does anyone look lazy?

My point is to not bash your guys. Given a couple seasons they'll be real good.

But as of now they haven't learned structure. And they all appear to lack fire. That's why Self passed on Orton for Robinson. Check out the YouTube stuff on him. He too, will have to learn his way into D1 basketball, but he certainly (as you can see intensity and footwork wise) should remind you a bunch of Darnell Jackson of the Cleveland Cavs (Go Cavs!)

That's stuff you're born with. Give Self & Manning three years and he can turn a 6th grade ball player into an NBA second rounder with a college degree and a national championship ring but that's another story.

I like your guys' passion. It reminds us of us. But when facts are skewed it ticks us off.

Perhaps your alumni have too many memories of what Pitino did? That was great for sure, we all enjoyed his stuff from afar.

I'm just sorry to be the bearer of this news -- Cal is no Pitino. He has proven to bring in a great class, but you need to remember his agenda with these players is simple -- get them to the NBA (and out of Lexington) ASAP.

By the way any word on Wall's eligibility?

Also, sorry to hear about your defensive player at the press conference today. Getting caught on something small like that is a tough break for your football program.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Carricam,

Put another way: if...

  1. Wall isn't eligible and...

  2. Meeks goes pro (this summer is his only chance to be a 1st round pick)... Or...

  3. Calipari is caught (like Memphis fans seem to think is part of the reason he left, one must keep in mind, paying Rose & changing grades, like Mayo, affects everything, not only who Cal can bring in, but it also bumps his salary by about $20 million and does allow him a better chance to continue to go for a championship, so this is no small deal Memphis fans are starting to talk about, in fact it probably affects UK more than Memphis).

What then happens to your team if any of these things happen?

Carrucan 10 years, 8 months ago

could you provide a link to a story on Self passing on Orton or any mention of it somewhere on the web? I am not doubting you I just hadn't heard of any such recruiting issues with him.

You all seem to think Cal is bringing in players who could be great in a couple of years...

Cousins and Wall are NBA players right now. Cole Aldrich is a true center... OK and Cousins is the number one ranked center his age in the world... I'm not worried about a damn wingspan when we got 250 pound versatile big men across the board.

John Wall will blow by anyone on your team. Pitino never had talent like this...

100 10 years, 8 months ago

You're right about Wall to a certain extent (his speed).

Much to be learned and it would be his 2nd year at earliest he wouldn't be a TO machine .

Since he's not eligible to play college ball (right now) and he would be the #1 pick in the draft (and he's eligible), do you think there's a chance he'll join the NBA this year after all?

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

100,

So true about the high cost of the loss in '57. And so true to point to those that pushed Allen out too early to coach Chamberlain as those responsible for setting in motion the nearly Shakespearian forces (we're talking Lear here) that eventually played out in disaster. Allen and Harp were a good fit, just as Iba and Parrott were, and Dean and Gutt were, and Wooden and Crum, and Al McGuire and Hank Raymonds, and Roy and Joe, etc. (I'm leaving Self out here, because he has a unique genius for finding lots of one louies that are good fits).

You are right to say that a win in '57 might well have delivered us into a better place mentally, certainly a more successful '58 season, but I am not sure how it would have improved the freshman class already there. And since frosh could not play in those days, I still have to focus on the lack of talent that was developed for Wilt's '58 season, i.e., that '57 freshman class. And that lack of talent probably goes back to what you pointed out--the forcing out of Allen--the man with the rep strong enough to have brought the recruits in for the '57 class to play with the greatest player in history to that point.

But let me stipulate for the sake of discussion that your assertion is correct; that a win in '57 would have yielded one, and probably two more NCAA titles. I agree that the domino effect of stringing three together at that point could well have put KU in position to dominate the 1960s in a way that UCLA eventually succeeded in doing starting in 1964.

Why?

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Because if Wilt had been successful at KU, first, they would undoubtedly have landed more great talent in the years '59 to '65, even though there was no super big man in that period. And second, there is a high likelihood that KU would have landed one, or both, of Alcindor and Walton, the next two great centers that produced 6 titles between them. At the very least, KU would have landed Alcindor. Alcindor was highly socially conscious even before he made his choice of schools. KU's leadership in integration of the college game, plus the counterfactual assumption of recent dominance in the NCAA, plus the counterfactual assumption of Chamberlain's great success and contentment, plus KU's by then strong academic liberalism, plus the counterfactual assumption of Harp's high standing among coaches for having won three rings, would almost certainly have landed Alcindor. Alcindor would have attracted a lot of talent to KU, as he did to UCLA. Alcindor would have won 2 or 3 rings at KU, as he won 3 at UCLA. Who knows, Alcindor coming to KU might have tipped Elvin Hayes into coming to KU, instead of wasting his career with Guy Lewis in Houston. Imagine a KU team with Alcindor and the Big E! And if Alcindor and E had come to KU, well, Lucious Allen would have been a Jayhawk for sure.

The domino effect I am talking about here has many degrees of freedom in it, but it is probably less improbable than what actually played out--UCLA getting both Alcindor and Walton.

Now to be fair to history, and to be even handed with counter factual inference, another scenario, albeit a vastly worse one for KU, also had some probability of having played out had Allen been forced out even earlier.

It is fair to say that Wilt probably would not have come to KU had Allen not been there at all, though even without Allen, KU had a couple attractions for Wilt. KU had racial progressivism in the integration of college basketball. But most important, KU had one of the top three track programs in the country and Wilt, as he wrote in one of his books, loved track more than hoops and played hoops largely for the money.

So: with Allen force out earlier, let's say Wilt has to at least consider the other top two track programs of the time--Villanova and UCLA--correct me here if I am recalling inaccurately.

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

First, Villanova: it was in Wilt's home town. 'Nova had some basketball tradition to go with its track program. But at that particular time KU's recent hoops and basketball tradition were better, though without Allen, he might favor 'Nova just because he knew the coach at 'Nova. Still, 'Nova's track program was more track than field oriented. And KU's track team was then fabulous in both. Because Wilt was a track animal capable of decathlon greatness, a great high jumper and triple jumper in particular, a potentially excellent high hurdler and quarter miler, and with more maturity a likely stud in weight events, too, KU's field team and field graduates would have had serious appeal (practicing with Al Oerter would get any competitor's juices flowing). I reckon Wilt might have opted for KU over 'Nova even without Allen, just for the richness of the KU track program.

But there was at least one other school (and perhaps more I can't recall) with an illustrious track program, a great record of racial progressivism, and a young coach (who had broken the color line in college basketball integration years before at Indiana State) who never imposed any quotas, and had had some very good teams in the 50s without the benefit of ever having a good big man; that program was UCLA. UCLA was also in sunny, beachy SoCal and as we learned later Wilt preferred SoCal to anywhere else when he could dictate where he lived. Yep, had Allen been forced out earlier, there was at least some chance that Wilt might have gone to UCLA to be part of the glamorous track tradition of Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson and a lot that I can no longer recall. Gads! Imagine Wilt having chosen UCLA! Wooden would almost certainly have won 3 more rings for through out the 1950s Wooden had a bunch of very good guards and forwards. He just could never land a big man. UCLA with dominance from 1957 to the end of their actual run is a very depressing notion from KU's POV. :-)

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

In conclusion, the persons who forced Allen out prescipitated an unforeseen consequence that probably not only cheated KU out of some rings with Chamberlain, but lead eventually to a bad relationship between KU and Wilt that meant that Wilt did not give KU a thumbs up to the great young centers, and probably a lot of great young African Americans at any position, that followed him. Wilt never went out of his way to be negative about KU, but he never tried to conceal that his experience at KU had been less than successful and happy in certain ways. The greatest player of his time, had he been unconflicted about KU, could have recruited Alcindor and Walton and countless others to KU.

I hope the persons who forced Allen out understand the gravity of what they did wrong to the program--to the legacy.

But they probably never got it. Persons foolish and petty enough to have done what they did to Allen, were hardly likely to have had the insight and intellect to understand and admit responsibility for what the consequences foreseen and unforeseen.

Therefore it is up to Jayhawk nation to do the collective remembering, to remind today's leaders of just how much damage they can do to the program, to remind them of just how much more damage could have been done to the program had Allen been forced out even earlier, by the powers that be. I don't believe they meant harm. They probably just wanted the power Allen had and greater control of the revenues KU hoops produced, as soon as possible. They probably did have doubts about whether Allen could recruit anymore at his advanced age, regardless if he brought in Chamberlain, or not. Maybe Allen's health was affecting his performance.

Regardless of motivation, though, don't make that mistake again...ever!

jaybate 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucanot,

You are asking us to believe your might be's, when we have already are's. It won't work. The go-go years of derivatives insured by two underfunded punks with a shared delusion of a CDO are over. This is 2009. KU has the steak that remains. UK has a bunch of worthless CDOs and derivatives from the past, plus some new sizzle.

Put another way, we aren't Eskimos and we aren't buying your hypothetical Frigidaires.

Capice?

100 10 years, 8 months ago

True Jaybate,

But you must remember who recruited that '57 freshman class (Wilt's soph year)?

Phog, having to yield the truth, that he wouldn't be coach. In all truth, that class had one name on it....

H

A

R

P.

A good man. But our original point we agree on is the same. Phog getting forced out set in motion this Shakespearian Lear fall.

We would have won the title with Phog's recruits in '57, '58 & '59.

And with Phog's recruits in '60, Dean Smith would have taken over and continued our Woodonian Concrete pouring peachbasket foundation.

(how ironic it was that it took Chamberlain's buddy & teammate to turn the tradition around -- Monty Johnson -- who grabbed Dean Smith guys Larry Brown & Roy Williams, of course Self coming here accidentally due to Monty Johnson as well having joined Larry's staff).

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Jaybate,

One more thing for the record.

There was a lot of KU fans that did start that rumor about Wilt's feelings.

Towards the end we found out the truth. All of the speculation about his feelings and why he left were completely wrong. He was tired of the college game (with Harp's recruits). He was getting triple teamed and kicked on his shins & elbowed on his children making apparatus every possession. The NCAA already changed the rules on him once to make it more difficult for him.

Now they're gonna beat him up? Well they did & due to having no supporting cast in '58 due to Phog being forced out, Wilt got hurt. He was severely banged up.

In the end we found out he wore his Jayhawk shirt around his LA mansion quite often, had his Kansas clippings on his wall & always spoke extremely highly of us. He saw the same unfair things that happened to Phog.

In the end he came back. And he told us the truth. He always wanted to spend time here in Lawrence but that '57 loss really hurt.

Not until coming back did he realize he was wrong -- he thought we were mad about '57. He had it all on his shoulders for 40 years wearing his Jayhawk shirts, staying in touch with his old college teammates.

Wilt was/ is as Jayhawk as they come. If you haven't seen his speech when his jersey gets hung, it's a must see (as is Jo Jo White's).

Eloquent. True. Jovial. Completely Jayhawk, with or without 10 NCAA banners. It's just as "Jayhawk" as it gets.

Brett Glover 10 years, 8 months ago

This is a retarded article, first how can you give mount St. Aldritch a "slight" edge?! That' insane to me, and another thing not as much would agree with but small forwards to Kentuckey without even mentioning that we have the number one shooting guard in the 09 class?? Stupid!!! Also with the point guard, we have Sherron!! Stupid, pointless article.

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucan......

You can sell your inFATuation with the number 250. It's a number it doesn't mean he's in shape.... it doens't meean he can play division 1 ball./....

Just because a kid is 6'10 250 does not a center make...... Case in point... SHerron has come in at 210 at 5'11..... repeat 5'11.... 210.... give him a foot and 50 pounds...that does not make sherron a center...... All signs i have seen show that Cousin's takes plays, quarters, halves off..... while he is an extremely talented player.... it's not like Calipari is going to push him to be a more effective player..... Demarcus Cousins has Lester Earl Written all over him..... great vertical, amazing athletecism...No work ethic......

we've seen his kind before..... they don't last long... if cousin's can make it in the NBA... right now.... when someone like Sean May cannot..... I say go right ahead.... sean may was bigger and better..... and he's a nothing in the pros.

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Porter or CatsCatsCats or Carrucam:

Is Wall eligible?

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Carrucan,

Where did you get your info on Wall being eligible?

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Becuase he hasn't yet passed the academic requirements..... he may be OK.... but neither him or cousin's have been cleared yet.,...and cannot practice without that clearance

100 10 years, 8 months ago

Thanks Wayward,

Things have certainly changed with NCAA's rules...

I wonder if Wall realizes he won't be eligible if he'll still have time to jump into the NBA draft?

As a 5th year senior, not a good student & a probable #1 selection it seems like a good thing for him to be considering right now.

Carrucan 10 years, 8 months ago

keep dreaming...

Wall - Cousins will be the best inside out duo in the country.

KY_Cats1 10 years, 8 months ago

So true Carrucan, so true.

There won't be another combo in the country as good as Walls/Cousins. All-Americans for certain.

Just another reason this Wildcat team will be unstoppable. The NCAA championship banner for Rupp Arena is already being stitched.

Go Big Blue!!!

100 10 years, 8 months ago

KY_Cats1:

The only question is, considering Wall is not eligible, is what will he do if he isn't cleared by the clearing house.

To me the logical solution would be to jump in the draft since he'd be the #1 pick.

Your response is he'll be the best guard in the country and UK will win the whole thing.

Your not responding to the question:

What will Wall do if he's not eligible?

  1. Will he stay at Kentucky and study for a year, get his grades up and play his 2nd year?

  2. If the clearinghouse doesn't clear him, can he even, legally, be a student at UK?

  3. Would he just jump in the draft & be the #1 pick? (which he would). Not sure if this is even possible since the draft is only 3 weeks away.

Do you disagree that option #3 is not his best option considering his circumstance?

waywardJay 10 years, 8 months ago

Short answer.... They probably will clear him similiar to the morris's last year... it just make take some time..... and some ado.....

  1. He cannot go to the college if the clearing house doesn't clear him ( to my knowledge.... he could go to a another school system... but that would eat up his "on Year" status and there by making a trip to Kentucky useless....

  2. covered that in answer 1.

  3. Based on who's got the first pick, If he's draft eligible for the draft... I would figure long odds on wall being the first pick.... he's top 3... but the Clippers have Baron Davis already.... they don't need two shoot first point guards with the possibility of a shoot first combo guard in shaun Livingston coming back soonish mid next year.... ( another Clipper 1st rounder lost to knee injury.... it really is an epidemic ..... )

Then again.... I was SURE Paul Pierce was a top 3 guy when he went.... and he dropped to 10...... Those in the Wildcat circles are praying for Wall.... and specifically clueless if they haven't learned of the eligibility situation...... specifically of their "two biggest stars.... or the greatest combo in the nation .... as some have said it..."

Great Combo is a great comparison cosnidering they are BOTH UNQUALIFIED AS OF YET.......... That may change tomorrow that may take until September.... Hope it's in Mid December when Kentucky's already lost a few games and Patrick Patterson is already injured..... and likely gone for the season ....

Show these arrogant bastards right.....

Tyler Daniels 10 years, 7 months ago

All KU fans, join this facebook group (if you have one), for the 2009-2010 National Champions, the Kansas Jayhawks!!!

rcjh22 10 years, 7 months ago

I HATE KENTUCKY FANS!! You will not and I repeat will not win the national championship next year. Walls and Cousins the best inside/out duo? Are you freaking kidding me? Sherron/Cole will be the best and then X/Cole will be the second best. KU is better than Kensucky.

100 10 years, 7 months ago

Just came out today that the guy who made sure Rose made signed his letter of intent to play at Memphis is the same guy Memphis flew around the country & payed for his hotel.

So Cal uses a couple people, including Derrick Rose himself, to leave Derrick's school & friends at Memphis in shambles while making himself (Calipari) an extra $25 million while also somehow avoiding (???) any repercussions upon being found out, simply by changing contracts & going to another school and stealing the old school's (who he left to avoid probation) recruits.

WHAT????

100 10 years, 7 months ago

Lexington Herald Leader reports: After the news that Rose's brother is now involved, UK is seeking a news blackout regarding the John Calipari situation/ investigation. What are they in Moscow?

This is no joke. Go check out their site -- a news blackout.

waywardJay 10 years, 7 months ago

I got booted from their site for exactly this reason.... it's hilarious.... they don't want people talking.... I SMELL TROUBLE !

EnviroHawk7 10 years, 7 months ago

I'm gonna stray away from this discussion for a second,

EnviroHawk7 on 4/22/09,

You know what would be awesome? If a lot of us (in our free time) went to UK Basketball site and dogged on them constantly.

I was told that that might not be the best thing to do, but I did receive this email from CatsCatsCats. They were just whining that they have a better team and that it is just stupid for fans of another team to come and dog on them on their message boards. Uhhhh... lost a few brain cells from watching Kensucky (Thanks rcjh22) basketball?

SuperCats8 10 years, 7 months ago

April 6, 2010

Oh sure, you guys think that you have the best team in the nation. Well you're wrong. We Obviously have the best team. KU doesn't even compare to UK. Oh, and Coach Cal IS the best coach ever.

Reasons UK SHOULD have won.

Cole Aldrich always walks, Collins fouled every time UK got the dang ball, Bill Self payed the refs to always call fouls on Cousins, And so many other reasons.

Though I can say that UK will now win every National Championship for the next 20 years. KU football will never stand a chance vs. UK, just saying.

GO WILDCATS!

Huh...

Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

waywardJay 10 years, 7 months ago

I will offeer a different future,

April 4, 2010

Kentucky makes first final four since ( 2003 was it ? ) Loses to Michigan State in double over time.....

John Wall decides going pro. DEMarcus Cousins decides to turn Pro. Patterson decides to Turn Pro. Orton Stays to dowork for one more year. Bledsoe returns with him.

Calipari is charged with recruitment violations for his illegal contact period violations, but as it is a minor infraction only costs Kentucky 2 scholarships. He has to void the season and his third final four.

Unlike the other times, he decides to stay at kentucky.....

April 12, 2013....

NCAA formally bans John Calipari from coaching because of previous violations and catches him in the biggest heist ( red handed no less ) of the number 1,3 6, recruits in the 2013 class.... He was caught getting grades altered for 1 and 6, and he was caught dead to rights paying number 3.

Kentucky then hires Travis Ford away from Oklahoma State to clean up Calipari's failures.....

net result for UK.... Two Finals fours, ( one removed, one visibiliy tainted ) a National Semifinal...... but no Championships because Calipari's boys can't shoot free throws worth a lick.

100 10 years, 7 months ago

Holy Canoli - - according to the Lexington Herald, UK student newspaper is officially banning all coverage of the John Calipari NCAA investigation.

waywardJay 10 years, 7 months ago

Where's Jaybate... or Woodward and Bernstein when you need them....

100 10 years, 7 months ago

It is a rather spooky site without Jaybate.

Even stranger to not have Kentucky fans (for a whole week!)

100 10 years, 7 months ago

ESPN just broke with a headline that Calipari had contacted the NCAA and was planning on missing the hearings on June 6 (due to a trip to China, a good thing).

The NCAA replied that it is a mandate. As in he can't miss the meeting although he'll be able to participate by phone. Seems like a good idea from his perspective, especially when he starts explaining how the guy who made sure that Rose would come to Memphis (Rose's brother), gets flown around and wined and dined by Calipari.

Promises are a dangerous thing when you break them. This could be an ugly courtroom scene (Rose doesn't come without older brother getting pampered, and Calipari's paycheck doesn't go up 25 mill, without Rose).

I think I'd take the NCAA's questions on the phone too.

100 10 years, 7 months ago

  1. NCAA mandates Calipari for Memphis rule breaking hearing.

  2. UK mandates college paper to block all news and posters from posting about Calipari's rule breaking at Memphis.

Where is Jaybate & Lhohman3?

waywardJay 10 years, 7 months ago

100,

Just thought of Something...... Right about the time watergate started to break ...wasn't Nixon in China ?????

interesting corroraly if my history is correct.....

I would Kill to see Calipari say " I am not a CROOK !!!!"

100 10 years, 7 months ago

Wayward Jay,

That would be classic ("I am not a crook").

I believe you're right about Nixon being in China. I'm really surprised UK has had so much influence on the national press (ESPN for instance has pulled a few of their stories & won't let anyone comment on UK stories anymore).

Why does UK get special treatment? Because their coach is about to be shown to be a crook? It's amazing to me reading their Lexington Herald. Three of those stories essentially blast the fans, President Lee Todd & lame duck AD Mitch Barnhart for hiring this guy saying essentially "we all knew he was a crook, how did you overlook that (again)". Of course they're referring to Gillespie.

On another site Saul Smith, a true blue Kentucky grad & x bball player & son of Tubby blast UK for hiring businessmen & criminals to run their program. He says "I deserve more as an alum. What happened to our integrity".

The UK nation (the half of it I respect, the part that Jayhawk nation respects, the part that respects real history of the game itself not banners) is actually very upset about this Calipari hire. They are just starting to come out of the woodwork, but it has begun.

Saul in fact says, that he doesn't care how many blue chippers UK brings in with their new desperation policy, they will always look desperate & their integrity is gone by hiring Calipari. He goes onto say his father had many chances to bring in this kind of top tier athlete but he had too much integrity to pay talent. Essentially Saul is implying many on the inner circle at UK know slready how Cal gets his players (as has the rest of the nation for several years now).

Which is why this NCAA investigation out of Nixon's homeland of China really is part II of the investigation of Marcus Camby. This is about character. Intent. And it's not only about Rose. As the Lexington papers pointed out, this very easily could turn into the trickle effect for Calipari for years to come.

There are still questions in Memphis about two of Rose's teammates at Memohis during that time which the NCAA hasn't confirmed any investigation on yet. And of course the ENTIRE nation now, whether Cal is sanctioned or not in trickle cases or not, does not trust that any portion of his recruiting class at UK was "by the NCAA books".

And that's also why he set up a Twitter account. He's like the Godfather (of course he seems really nice & sweet & family oriented on TWITTEr). He knows he's being investigated, and by posting every hour something sweet about his kids, he is hoping the UK nation doesn't start believing in their hearts what they already know about him from his time at Memphis & UMass.

That he's a crook.

Even the sweet Godfather, so kind, so geniune, so religious -- would shoot people & take wallets when the cops weren't looking.

Don't let twitter fool you -- it's his cover.

And he needs a huge cover the size of China right now.

waywardJay 10 years, 7 months ago

Unfortunately, he's one of ours too.... which sucks.... but what can we do.... he makes his own choices in life..... and if that's the only way he can get kids to go to kentucky..... so be it.... he'll get caught eventually.... you think any of these kids are starting to sweat their eligibility ???? personally, I think this pace needs to pick up.... I don't want to "lose" to kentucky in a contested game that costs sherron and cole another ring..... and have it forfeited by recruitment violations

Carrucan 10 years, 7 months ago

yea I wish we recruited scholars like Darrell Arthur.

100 10 years, 7 months ago

Carracun is alive!

I thought there was a news blackout/ computer blackout/ full lockdown mode in Lexington!!!

This is GREAT!!!!

Your computers work again!!!

Give us the scoop!!!!

What's it like being a fan of John Calipari!

How is the media keeping UK students away from the news on Calipari? Is it working?how is it on campus? Any word on Wall's SAT scores? What type of phone will Calipari use in China?

C'mon Carracun, give us some info!!!! If he's innocent just enjoy the over zealous national media & (according to one of your posters) overanxious NCAA who Calipari will rub the National Champiinship trophy in the face of (the NCAA according to a UK poster on Sports Illustrated) & Saul Smith & 3 local Lexington reporter & half of Big Blue Nation agreeing with your local media stuff & give us the scoop!

What's it like having to rely on Twitter for news on John Calipari?

waywardJay 10 years, 7 months ago

That's Just sour grapes carrucan.....

Darrell Arthur was not proven to have his grades altered and did fine at kansas.....

Spekaing of, How is the NCAA standings of Wall, Cousins and Bledsoe ???? On solid footing ?????

and what about this little "golden nugget" if you will.....

100 10 years, 7 months ago

What's up with the news blackout on UK's campus?

Anyone have any more info on that?

100 10 years, 7 months ago

Check out CBS story that just broke on Robert Dosier's SAT test (s).

Hope Calipari is enjoying China -- unfortunately for him, according to ex Memphis fans, it's about to get a lot worse. Old friends have a way of spilling secrets (extra large stipends off the books) when you leave town.

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