Monday, February 2, 2009

W on hand or not, Jayhawks seeking road ‘W’

Ex-President Bush not likely to be in Baylor’s ‘whited-out’ Ferrell Center tonight

Baylor’s Curtis Jerrells, center, has the ball knocked away by Missouri’s Zaire Taylor, left, while driving past DeMarre Carroll during the Bears’ 89-72 loss Saturday at Missouri. Baylor has lost three in a row heading into tonight’s meeting with Kansas University.

Baylor’s Curtis Jerrells, center, has the ball knocked away by Missouri’s Zaire Taylor, left, while driving past DeMarre Carroll during the Bears’ 89-72 loss Saturday at Missouri. Baylor has lost three in a row heading into tonight’s meeting with Kansas University.


GameDay Cram Session: Baylor online editor Jesse Newell & Journal-World sports editor Tom Keegan discuss what to expect from the Kansas men's basketball team's road game against Baylor.

Collins has off-day against Colorado

Junior guard Sherron Collins struggled against Colorado on Saturday, forcing the Jayhawks to find another way to pull off a win.


Rod Aydelotte/AP Photo

Former President Bush and his wife, Laura, wave after being introduced to the crowd at Wednesday’s Baylor-Oklahoma women’s basketball game in Waco, Texas. Bush has expressed interest in attending a Baylor men’s game, too, and might be on hand tonight, when the Bears play host to Kansas University.

Baylor University basketball fans will be decked out in Bears’ T-shirts as part of a “white-out” promotion for tonight’s BU-Kansas game at 10,347-seat Ferrell Center.

Whether former White House residents George W. Bush and his wife, Laura — who own a ranch in nearby Crawford — are part of the 8 p.m. proceedings is anybody’s guess.

The two attended Wednesday’s Baylor-Oklahoma women’s game in Waco and are big sports fans of the many Texas universities.

“If President Bush shows up Monday, that’d be crazy. It was great meeting him at the White House and all that,” said KU sophomore guard Tyrel Reed. He and the rest of the 2008 NCAA-champion Jayhawks met Bush in a Rose Garden ceremony last June 3.

“That would be so cool having a former president at the game. It’d be an honor for him to watch us play ball.”

Word in Waco is that Bush has expressed interest to sixth-year Bears coach Scott Drew about attending a men’s game this season.

Locals, for what it’s worth, do not believe that night is tonight.

It could be just as well for the young Jayhawks (17-4, 6-0), who will need to focus all eyes on the court — and not in the stands — in trying to conquer a veteran Bears (15-6, 3-4) team looking for its second victory against KU in school history.

The Bears, who have lost seven straight to the Jayhawks since an 85-77 victory in 2001 in Waco — and are 1-13 all-time versus KU — start three seniors, one junior and one freshman.

“Someone commented to me and said, ‘You have a voice (this year),’’’ BU coach Drew said. “The good thing when you have five seniors (three juniors) and great leadership, you don’t have to talk as much in practice. They do a great job setting the tone and getting across what needs to be passed on to our younger players.”

Senior guard Curtis Jerrells leads the Bears in scoring at 16.8 points per game.

He’s followed by sophomore guard LaceDarius Dunn (68 of 165 threes), who has come off the bench to hit for 16.5 ppg. He has just 11 assists in 575 minutes played.

Senior forward Kevin Rogers, senior guard Henry Dugat and junior guard Tweety Carter average 12.6, 12.3 and 10.6 ppg, respectively.

“For us, it’s something new from the standpoint that most of these guys — when we started to build our program — all played major minutes as freshmen and as sophomores and juniors and are now seniors,” Drew said.

“I think that’s what’s helped with the parity in college basketball. Teams that are junior- and senior-laden and have that experience tend to fare better than some teams that have one- or two-and-done players where it takes time to build chemistry.”

The experienced Bears, who advanced to the NCAA Tournament last March for the first time since 1987-88 (losing to Purdue in the first round to complete a 21-11 year), have struggled of late after getting off to a 12-1 start.

BU has lost three in a row and five of eight heading into tonight’s contest.

“Where are we now ... focused, ready,” Drew said last week, shrugging off talk the team was sputtering. “We have enough returning players. They know the grind of the Big 12, the emotions. It’s like a roller coaster. You are up on top and on the bottom in the same week. You are only as good as your last game. Our guys know that.”

The Bears in the league have beaten Texas Tech and Oklahoma State at home and won at Kansas State. BU has lost at home to Texas and dropped road contests at Oklahoma, Texas A&M; and Mizzou. In the nonconference season, BU beat Providence, Arizona State and Washington State and fell to Wake Forest and South Carolina.

“All our losses are to good teams,” Drew said.

KU beat Baylor, 100-90, last Feb. 9 in an Allen Fieldhouse shootout. KU outscored the Bears, 64-57, the second half.

Jerrells, a 6-foot-1 guard from Austin, Texas, had 30 points off 11-of-21 shooting. Dunn, a 6-4 sophomore from Monroe, La., contributed 23 off the bench. He hit five of 10 threes on a day BU hit 12 of 29 to KU’s zero of nine.

Darrell Arthur scored 23 points, Russell Robinson 22 and Sherron Collins 17 off the bench for KU.

“It’s going to be fun. It’s going to be a fast-paced game,” KU junior Collins said. “Everybody’s going to be running. They’ve got good guards, good players. It’s Big Monday. We’ll be ready for it.”

Self is also wary of talented frontcourt players (6-9) Rogers (8.0 rebounds a game), 6-7 freshman Quincy Acy (7.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg) and 7-1 Mamadou Diene (13 blocks in 18 games).

“They have more size, but are not starting more size,” Self said. “They are going smaller now with Quincy, who is a fabulous athlete. They have a lot of ability running the floor. They’ve got more depth and balance this year inside and out. Last year they were primarily a perimeter team. They still are, but can score inside a little better.”

After tonight, the Jayhawks are off until Saturday. KU will meet Oklahoma State in a 2:30 p.m. tipoff in Allen.


TtownHawk 12 years, 11 months ago

Gonna have to play better than both of last weeks games to get out tonight with a win.

jakejayhawk 12 years, 11 months ago

So they're having a white out? Great! It will make it that much easier to see all the KU blue in the crowd. Set a bear trap and get a win.

eddiesuttonschoolofdriving 12 years, 11 months ago

"It'd be an honor for him to watch us play ball." hmmmm, i don't think that's how he meant it to come out - but how true - unless they play like they did in the last 2 wins Hopefully if he does show he won't feel compelled to bust out with some of his cheerleading moves from his Yale days - yuck

100 12 years, 11 months ago

Just a note to Jaybate and all others who think Self is a direct descendent of Eddie "Okie" Sutton. First of all, it might be of interest to you that Eddie grew up in Kansas following and rooting for the Jayhawks. His interest was in what Phog and his lineage was doing, and in fact took over Kentucky due to his strong connection to that brand of basketball, just as Adolph Rupp got the job at Kentucky in 1930 for the same reasons -- their passion, their ties to Phog Allen and ultimately the inventor who as we all know was Phog's confidant at Kansas for 40 years. As for Self specifically, let's not forget where he had his first, most influential job after graduating from OSU -- at Kansas. Hired by Larry Brown, who Self said affected his outlook and strategies more than any other coach.And for those trying to say Bill is then tied to Carolina basketball as that's where Larry went. Well then we must keep in mind he played for Dean Smith, who learned his game from Phog at Kansas.In short, look back at the 2nd half of the 1988 championship game... Bill Self is Larry Brown with more flat screens and even tougher D. Calling Bill Self's coaching okieball is like calling ex-President "W" a genious.

Rick Arnoldy 12 years, 11 months ago

Read it again, Eddie. This time as "It'd be an honor (for the team)" and "for him to watch us play ball." I don't think he meant it would be an honor for W.

100 12 years, 11 months ago

From this point forward, Self's basketball style needs a much better knickname than the lame duck one that Jaybate has given it. From this point foreward, I propose we replace the flat out wrong tag ("okieball") with a much more appropriate one..."LarryBall"1. Larry (Lawrence) is where he learned the game for the first time as a graduate.2. Larry, according to Bill, influenced his coaching style more than any coach.3. Bill met his wife in Larry.4. Bill stayed in Larry (over Okie) because he believes there's no better place to coach.5. Larry is Bill's home.Any one else in favor of "LarryBall" being the me Knickname of Kansas Hoops?

eddiesuttonschoolofdriving 12 years, 11 months ago

Ohio - I agree that is how he meant it - an attempt at being gracious - i just thought it was funny the way it came out.

Jhawk2515 12 years, 11 months ago

If we play like we did last week we will lose by 20 to a very talented and well rounded team in Baylor.

NebraskaJayhawk 12 years, 11 months ago

I think the coaching comparisons are kind of rediculous myself. Bill Self is who he is....he isn't someone else or has someone else's philosophies. Perhaps there have been influences, but he is his own person and has his own coaching style. Kansas needs to step it up tonight or not show. I agree with Jhawk2515. This is a very talented Baylor team despite their conference record so far.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

A senior-dominated team is 0-3 in the last 3 games and 5 of 8 of late.The consensus worst-President-in-history threatens to come to one of your games. A Great Stagflation tightens alumni contributions to the basketball program you have finally gotten on its feet.Billy Bob out installing his new gun rack in the pick up by the charred foundation of the old Branch Davidian complex, the place his oily Daddy bought him, to start a bird hunting club, still thinks basketball is sissies in shorts shouting 'shoot the ball Percy.'And worst of all, not so far down the road at the Petroleo Club, some boys is makin' it clear to each other over scotch and dominoes, that if that "half African American Democrat the central bankers forced down our throats as president even so much as thinks of shuttin' down our little action called the super corridor, well, that fella is about to get a ride through Dealy Plaza." Trust me. There are, unfortunately, still people who think and talk this way.About now, Scott Drew, once of idyllic little Valparaiso, once his father's assistant and best recruiter there, once its head coach for a year before jumping to Baylor, has to be humming: "Indiana wants me, lord, I can't go back there."

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

Scott Drew, son of Homer, who oddly replaced his son as Valpo's head coach, finds himself deep in the black heart of Texas in a dark time. What a difference a year makes, eh? even half a season? Being the well-educated graduate of Butler U in Indiana that he is, he has to wonder: "Am I living the Illiad, or the Odyssey?"For the increasingly classics challenged among us--those raised only on Star Wars and Bill James--or much worse--only on Survivor and Sports Center--the Illiad and the Odyssey were two Oral Tales of the Century that played in amphitheater complexes back when Greeks were heroes and Trojans were heavies with foxy ladies named Helen--around 800 BC, or so, though there is increasing debate about exact dates and no one has ever proven if Homer were one, or many, persons.For what its worth, The Illiad came first at the box office. The knuckle draggers liked it a lot, so the poet Homer went to the well again. The Odyssey was a kind of sequel. Had Roman Numerals been invented yet, the sequel might have been called Illiad II: The Odyssey. But they hadn't, though there may have been some Greecian equivalents, as most every thing Roman has a Greecian antecedent. Whatever, the Odyssey mercifully stuck.Anyway, the Illiad was set in Illia, the queen city of the state of Troy. Achilles was a Greek warrior with an anger management problem about the political machine in Illia. He wanted it gone. He wanted to replace it with his guys, or just to salt it and be done with it. There is some debate about motivations, because like Bob Dylan doing songs, old Greek poets like to vary things occassionally to keep the crowd on its toes. Unfortunately for Achilles and his men, Achilles obsessed on winning now, rather than thinking wisely about when to fight and how to win. Wildly successful at most things, Achilles would never bend till he got his way. And he did not play soft either. The man liked to finish. When it came to cracking Illia, Achilles couldn't let go and wait for better strategic circumstances. He tried to finish when he shouldn't have. Like Stephon Marbury, at his most arrogant, trying to finish on Shaq Father in his prime, it was inevitably going to be a bad outcome. Achilles should have bent, but instead he refused to bend and he broke, as classics teachers used to say. Put another way, his team quickly got run out of the Illian's crib by the homies. Achilles, in turn, went straight to the after life, such as it was imagined in those days.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

Scott, son of Homer, has shown enormous, unbending will in the little Illia of Waco, the queen city of, well, the queen city of a patch of prairie half way between Austin and Dallas, where he willed the ascendancy of Baylor to some basketball prominence last season. Of course, some knowledgeable with the futile basketball history of Baylor, might say he unwisely obsessed on trying to make it a winner. He should have got while the getting was good. Some would say, "Well, yeah, Scott, you could win 20 their once in a blue moon, but then the roof will fall in on ya some how. Waco, Texas, ain't Valparaiso, Indiana. And the Big 12 is not the conference Valpo gets it win in. Texans don't have the game in their blood the way the Hoosiers do. But the Achilles in Scott was defiant. He said if Butcher Barnes can put together a consistent winner at football central--UT-Austin--and if Billy Gillispie can build a winner in College Station, before jumping to UK, well, I, Scott Drew, son of Homer, can do it here in Waco, too. And I'll jump when I want, and not before. This has Achilles-think written all over it. Billy Gillispie jumped ASAP. Billy Gillispie left a possible OAD incoming recruit behind in College Station; that's how flexible he was. Billy Gillispie grew up in Texas and understood the basketball constraints on the place. But what about Butcher Barnes at Austin, Scott, son of Homer, asks? Well, Scott, UT-Austin probably has more oil reserve endowments than Hugo Chavez State University in Venezuela will have one day. Money will buy almost anything in Austin, even green belts that help jack up the price of houses, and keep them from falling quite as far in the Great Stagflation.Or, as one person claiming familiarity with Baylor, Waco and Texas told me recently, "Throw enough money at something in Tayhoss, even Baylor,k and you'll get what you want...for a while anyway. But dang, Scottie is coming to the party a little too late. Ain't he heard, the Texas robber barons just got the boot out of Washington? Dubya's layin' low down there whiles all the war crimes, and crimes against humanity, and defraudin' the gubmint issues is being negotiated away. Maybe turnin' Baylor around ain't gonna play again until, until we get another one of our boys tucked in the Oval Office and he's lettin' them no-bids flow fasterin' than you can say "we want the Iranian oil."

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

But as I said, there was a sequel to the Illiad called the Odyssey. It too may apply to Scott, son of Homer. The Odyssey is about a lesser warrior than Achilles. It is about a guy namedOdysseus. The O-Man was more of an Eddie Baller than Achilles was. Odysseus dealt in reality, not imposing his will on reality. Odysseus tried to get what he wanted, but he never got obsessed. He bent rather than broke, when confronted with obstacles in his war time adventures. For example, his transcendant goal was to survive the wars and get home to his beloved Penelope. But when he had gotten separated from his unit, so to speak, he found himself the object of amorous advances of a lady of questionable virtue, who would have had him killed had he not consented to live with her. Well, it was a dirty job, but someone had to do it. Odysseus compromised and lived with her...for ten years! She wasn't his first choice, but he made do. Still, Odysseus got free of her chains of the flesh and he made his way back home to Penelope, who, by the way, while having kept a light burning in the window, was also near to making a few compromises of her own in his absence. Odysseus, and Penelope for that matter, played 70-point-take-what-they-give-us. They had a goal in mind. They pursued it. But they were adaptable in getting there. They bent, but never broke. They could, shall we say, tolerate detours and ambiguities in the road of life, though they were in their own ways just as determined as Achilles to reach their goals. And the point of the sequel that is the Odyssey is that they reached their goals by being a bit flexible, and Achilles, being too rigid, did not. Both Achilles and Odysseus wanted to come home. But Achilles made the mistake of making an obstacle along the way more important than coming home itself was.Scott, son of Homer, has to decide whether Baylor is home, or just an obstacle along the way. Scott, son of Homer, has to decide, whether the dire circumstances he finds himself in presently are to be prevailed over at any cost, or acknowledged as structural limitations one moves on from, sort of the way the USA is trying to move on from Dubya.Not sure how this will play out for Scott.Whatever, I hope KU makes his situation worse for him after tonight.

Theutus 12 years, 11 months ago

Seriously, any time I see a Jaybate post i know to just skip a couple pages of text....It gives me a headache to read most of that crap. I wish you'd stick to the basics (without the awkward historical references and layout).That being said I admire your spirit.

100 12 years, 11 months ago

Judging from the KU responses (or lack there of) so far, it looks like KU will keep the national tag that Jaybate has so kindly given KU hoops --"Okieball"What happened to the the "true" KU fans that used to pack the fieldhouse to watch Danny & Wilt? Do you guys know how to use a computer? What happened to the KU fanbase that used to stick up for the legend that is KU basketball? Phog Allen, right now, is rolling over in his grave. I'm not sure you KU students get it, yet. KU basketball is not, and never will be, "Okieball".This story on the Baylor game and the ex-president is a non story. Two teams will play tonight. The Okies vs. another team in Texas. Seriously. Let's talk about something more interesting...."Okieball"

MIZ_NIT 12 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate... You're hit or miss. Enough said. HUGE game tonight! First road challenge in Conference. Rock Chalk.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

100,Actually, I am grateful to you for raising the issue. It can only lead to more discussion and insight about the legacy of KU basketball and the evolution of the game itself.First, I guess you know Phog is from Missouri, right? Does that mean you want to trace KU basketball to Misery Ball, because Phog's birth certificate read Missouri? IMHO, birth place is not the key determinant.Phog learned most of his game from James Naismith and then developed it a long way on his own. Naismith was in Lawrence, not Warrensburg.Likewise, Eddie learned most of his game from Hank Iba at Okie A&M and developed it a long way on his own. Hank was in Stillwater, not Bucklin.Much as I love Kansas and take pride in Eddie being from Kansas, I take Eddie at his word, when he says he says Hank Iba was a huge influence on him.Similarly, I take John Wooden and Bob Knight at their words, guys who didn't even play for Iba, that Iba was a huge influence them in less direct ways. Phog is the daddy of them all.But Iba played it differently, not necessarily better, but differently. And his legacy, once thought moribund before Bob Knight and Eddie revitalized it in different ways, has proven to be today enormously influential. Today more teams play this way than play Allen Ball, or Rupp ball. or Knight Ball, or Wooden Ball. The historical record is: Eddie learned it from Iba, and then went out to Central Idaho Community College far, far, far from everywhere and somehow won 33 games one season doing what he was doing. Over time, he took Iba's philosophy and principles a quantum leap. Eddie saw the game differently than Iba. He was young and part of a new generation. Eddie grew up a fan of Allen and KU. The guy is a freaking genius. Maybe as a child he was being influenced by Allen and the KU way. I can't really say. All I know is that Eddie says Mr. Iba was where he learned his game and then Eddie somehow made this nonlinear leap in evolving the way he played the Iba game.I like to throw Doyle Parrott into the evolutionary stew as a transitional figure between Iba and Eddie, but I am only speculating on that. There are also Paul Hansen and Jack Hartman to fit into the evolutionary thread of Iba basketball into Eddie Ball.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

I never saw Central Idaho Community College play. I don't know if Eddie began to change the Iba game there for sure, or not. Maybe someone should ask him about all this before he dies. It makes me sick that we let all these great coaches die without getting how they did it on the record. I think I do have some vague recollection of seeing Creighton, which was his next stop, play when I was young. And I believe I remember that Creighton played what would be recognizable today as Eddie Ball. My guess is that Eddie had a burst of creativity in Idaho that often happens to brilliant young coaches who first escape the yoke of a great master. They improvise and try things that have been being squelched in them by the great master. Regardless, I have a vivid memory of Eddie's quintessential Eddie Ball team--the 1978 University of Arkansas team. That team was indisputably the ancestor of the Eddie Ball that is being played so many places today.And all of Bill Self's teams look and play as much like Eddie's teams as Roy's looked and played like Deans. Each system is adapted to new material. Each system adds and subtracts some offensive sets year in and year out. But the philosophy, overall scheme and the core sets remain the same with these two strains of basketball year in and year out. And, with all due respect, no one who has watched and thought about basketball, could ever mistake the difference in strains of basketball played by Dean and Roy with that played by Eddie and Bill. It is as different as night and day. Some things, as a very respected hard scientist I knew once said, are self evident. But I am always happy to discuss and debate this, since the legacy is what I am about.Rock chalk.

100 12 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate, you're intelligent no doubt. I now am nearly 100% certain that you are from Oklahoma. "There are people who still think like that way". You speak as if this were fact. I believe you. But there's only a few states where a person would speak this way. The original Confederate states, which you are obviously not from. Then there's Oklahoma.Now, I'm not saying you don't like KU, you obviously do, as did Eddie Sutton with a passion for the first 18 years of life.A lot of great Oklahomans have come to KU and made it a better place. Self is one of them. But you greatly misunderstand where Self has learned the game. He certainly received some education from both Sutton & Iba. But keep in mind, like Sutton, Iba studied Phog's every move.Look at game film. At heart, his game is an evolved version of Larry Brown's.I don't mind you having your own, albeit wrong, opinion on this. I just dislike that you've essentially for the last year brainwashed a bunch of KU 19 year olds into thinking he's coaching a brand of basketball from Oklahoma.The truth is, the roots of Bill's game go back in time to one place: Lawrence. The beginnings of this style of play were showing up in early 1920's Phog Allen coached teams. Read about his philosophy on cutting and passing sometime. And how to use guards. And bigs. This was all filtered through Rupp, Smith, Sutton & Iba (by proxy). Keep in mind, Phog was coaching at KU in 1907. When did Iba start at OSU? Whose game do you think Sutton was studying in 1952? That's right.So Jaybate, I have one question, although I do appreciate your passion for KU bball -- are you from Stillwater?And KU fanbase -- is it OK that Jaybate is encouraging our style of ball to be "Okieball"? (especially when it's not?)

Gil Ek 12 years, 11 months ago

KU CLOSING GAP IN ALL-TIME VICTORY CHASE ON UK AND UNC. Using NCAA stats thru 2008 and adding January results KU is gaining ground. In January KU gained 2 more games on UNC and 3 on UK. Here is my UN-official numbers on total wins. UK 1971 - UNC 1956, -15, KU 1951, --20,-5, Duke 1854. Should be real close in who is first to 2000 wins.

kvskubball 12 years, 11 months ago

IMO it doesn't matter whether you call it Okie ball or some other moniker. It works. I think both 100 and jaybate want it to be one or the other. I definitely think there is a combination of influences from Iba and Allen and Sutton, and Brown, and any other person Self ever came into contact with....Mr. Allen and Mr. Iba both stressed defense as the foundation of their teams. Self does the same, so call it whatever you want. I'd call it Bill Ball because he isn't a clone or drone...

JayhawkPhil64 12 years, 11 months ago

To add to that thought. It is not necessarily the kind of style you coach, it is how well you coach that style that creates success.On a completely different subject, here is my list of KU League games in order of how difficult the games should be to win. That's should be difficult, not actual as in the home game against Colorado.1.OU—There 2.Texas--- Here3.Baylor-There4.KSU—There5.MU--- There6.NU--- ThereW7.MU—Here8.KSU- HereW9.OSU—Here10.ISU-- ThereW11.Texas A&M—HereW12.Texas Tech-- There13.NU ---Here14.CU—ThereW15.ISU—Here16.CU-- HereWI think this shows what we have accomplished so far and how far we have to go.Note: 6 of the 7 toughest games(including our game tonight) are still there.

100 12 years, 11 months ago

Eku, nice post. That's pretty amazing. UK has lost a lot of ground the last few seasons. UK is so thin, benchwise, they could flop the 2nd half of the SEC season. Considering Carolina's depth, and a probable deep NCAA run, Carolina could catch the Wildcats by the end of the season.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

100,Ater stints at Marysville Teachers (aka NW Misery State) and Colorado, Iba came to Okie A&M aka OSU in 1934. Eddie Sutton was born March 12, 1936.Gotcha.Wrong again about Stillwater, too. :-)Let's be honest. You have no case and I do.You had a chance to make a case.And you didn't.You don't present an argument with a shred of evidence.I do.You say I just pull things out of thin air.Then you do that exact thing.The emperor is buck naked.You are going to have do better, 100.Rock chalk.Post Script: sorry about the sloppy editing on the sentence that lead you to think I was from Ibaville. :-)

Adam James 12 years, 11 months ago

Hi all- I need some help here as I make some plans for the most exciting trip of my life. For my 30th birthday my wife got me 2 things...#1 Brandon Rush jersey signed by the entire National Championship Team#2 Tickets to the March 7th game vs. Texas at the PhogI need some help with #2. My wife and I are flying in from CA for the weekend and I'm making the plans for all necessary stops in Lawrence. Where to eat??? Where to get the best gear?? Must See places??? Is there a shootaround on Friday or Saturday that is open to the public?? Where do I go to show her a nice community for living ($200k-400k)?? I might be able to talk her into moving at some point. Any info is greatly appreciated. BTW- We need to play our best defense to date tonight or we'll be in for a high scoring affair.

Scott Smetana 12 years, 11 months ago

JhawkPhil, VERY nice post. I agree with your rankings but believe winning in Columbia will be much harder than Lawrence. HOWEVER, KSU is on a streak. Brago1978I went back to KU a couple of years ago and really liked staying at the hotel at the end of Mass that is on the river. (can't remember the name). Rooms were great, had a view of the river, and were close to the Mass St. The Aldridge is also nice downtown ($$). I recommend eating somewhere along Mass St for the most local feel. As far as 'nice' neighborhoods, I'd head west out on 6th way out by Free St. High school then head maybe south from there.. All new, all nice. If she thinks Lawrence is 'small', make sure to stop by Legends on the way to/from MCI. Very nice outdoor mall, restaurants, etc.

Martin Rosenblum 12 years, 11 months ago

It just dawned on me, Jaybate and Rush Limbaugh have never been seen in the same room at the same time! Hmmmmm......

hollpat 12 years, 11 months ago

bragill- do the Hampton Inn on 6th Street. Or the Holiday Inn down the road. Look around West Lawrence to show her the nicest houses. Just avoid East Lawrence AT ALL COSTS. It looks like New Mexico.

DalTXJayhawk 12 years, 11 months ago

The hotel on the river is Springhill Suites (Marriott), an older more history filled hotel is the Eldridge (downtown). Older 'this old house' type homes are nice, Alvamar and other neighborhoods that direction are also good. The cost of living is considerably lower than CA. There are several nice places downtown (Tellers, place in Eldridge...) Jock's Nitch has a great selection of KU stuff (9th and Mass) and the Student Union has expanded their space and selection.

doug_lemoine 12 years, 11 months ago

@100: Jaybate's central axiom -- that there are two basic styles of basketball, Carolina and Oklahoma -- is indication that "Okieball" is a shortcut within a bigger shortcut. It's like saying "Every rock band is a descendant of either the Beatles or the Rolling Stones." That's not a perfect analogy, but still, you could argue about pretty much any band with that context, and I would argue that the whole exercise is a fxing waste of time. We could spend forever tying forebears to other forebears, and splitting fore-hairs into smaller fore-hairs. We could say that Self is 20% Iba-ball, 30% Eddie-ball, 30% Larry-ball, and maybe 20% Roy-ball (incorporating elements of the secondary break) -- but STILL, it's easier to just freakin call it "Bill-ball" or something. The game has changed; the players have changed; coaching itself has changed. Even the Princeton offense isn't the Princeton offense anymore. Self blends a variety of styles, and frankly I think he's done a great job of leveraging the changes that have taken place.

100 12 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate, your post didn't prove anything. Look up where Eddie Sutton was born and lived his first 17 years. Look up who he grew up rooting for. You conviently left that out. As for Iba, he, like all coaches for 50 years, studied Allen's game. Iba began coaching in '34? Phog was already KU's coach in 1907. Iba did nothing (that) original. His strategies were all variations of Phog's original teachings at KU.Except for his back to backs, he was always a shadow of the Phog

UncleMiltyN 12 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate,I think you got the coach genealogy close enough, but the "who influenced who" argument is way too complex in reality. I would have to say that Hartman was certainly a hybrid. As an example of how it gets all wonky very quickly, don't forget Roy used to watch Indiana practices and always said his second biggest influence was Bobby.In my opinion, Eddie and Bill have done far more with far less than some of the others you mentioned....especially Dean and Roy. I wouldn't say that Dean and Roy squandered talent very often, but they both have had their share of under-performing teams and the majority of their really successful teams had enough talent for 3 D1 teams....With the possible exception of the Big Dub, Langford, and Miles transition team...has Self ever had a team that under-performed? Some hawkfans might think that I guess. I don't. They weren't deep enough, Langford was hurt, and Self wanted to instill his brand of D. But, I was screamin at the tv that year wanting them to run more...

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

100,Eddie Posting means I've got to go with what you give me.Hmmm, Eddie rooted for Phog for his first 17 years and so that is more influential than playing for Coach Iba?Can' t quite follow that logic, one double ought.When did Eddie learn the most rooting for Phog? Between the ages of 6 and 12 months, between 5-10 years old, or between 10-18? How many games did Eddie's dad drive him up to see? Bucklin was quite a drive in those days, wasn't it? No TV back then. How did he learn so much just rooting for KU? I rooted for KU from the time I could remember and much of that time was in the TV era, when I could see them. I don't know near as much about KU basketball and about how to play the game as Eddie. How exactly does this education by rooting work? Does the knowledge pass through via some kind of Vulcan mind meld?

100 12 years, 11 months ago

Jaybate, It is truly amazing to me. You are as educated as they come. And you don't seem to get it. I don't think even 5% of the KU fanbase truly understands what Phog started. Sure we look at the statue.But the true history of what he did for 50 years at KU is amazing. He is the original. It all comes from him. Why do you think John Wooden ended up pouring concrete for Memorial Stadium's grandstands? And Phog was side by side with Naismith as a confidant up until 1939. I'm tired of hearing about Okieball from you. It's not even close. Billball fine. Larryball OK. But Okieball? If you have to put a history to it, it's Phogball.Phogball= Carolinaball + Okieball + Selfball

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

100,You really need to study up, pal. You're hearts in the right place, but your knowledge is a little sketchy.Watch some video of the way KU played under Allen.Iba approached the game differently. Different philosophy. Different pace. If anything, Phog learned from Iba later in his career.This is not to say there was no strain of basketball that developed clearly along a fairly uninterrupted lineage from Phog. Goodness, gracious man, Allen's style of play was enormously influential in its own right with certain of his assistants and players who later became head coaches. You just don't seem to have a clue about who they were.Really, the true disciples of Phog ball that probably retained the biggest part of his approach were his assistant John Bunn who went to Stanford and coached Hank Luisetti, and former player A. C. Dutch Lonborg, who coached at Washburn and then Northwestern. The third, who held very close to the Allen game would be Dick Harp. Frankly, Harp was really the last guy to play a really close derivation of the Allen game. There was a fourth, but I will keep you guessing about him all the way to the end.Unfortunately for the not-to-greatly-modified Allen strain of ball, none of these three coaches were hugely successful and durable, though Lonborg did have an admirable career. Lonborg brought the Allen game to the Big Ten, but unfortunately, Big Ten ball overtime became more influenced by Ward Lambert at Purdue, and the great coach at Wisconsin, and the coach at Indiana, all of whom coached what was essentially the forerunner of today's muscle ball on the blocks game that is played in the Big Ten and increasingly elsewhere. So: Allen ball never really made a lasting influence in the Big Ten.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

Bunn had a short, not very successful, but influential career at Stanford (any coach who allowed the first jump shooter has to be considered significant), but again, Bunn's very faithful brand of Allen Ball did not spread and take over the Pac 8 as it was called then. Pete Newell at Cal and John Wooden, became the lasting, contrasting influences in those conferences. Wooden openly admitted his debt to Iba's philosophy. I've read much of what Newell wrote and so far as I know Newell did not consider his philosophy and schemes as derived from Allen.Now there was another tier of clearly Allen Ball influenced coaches and that would be the guys who really narrowed the scope and philosophy of Allen ball down to the situational fast breaking dimension of Allen Ball. These would be Rupp at UK and John McClendon, who Allen would never let play at KU, because he was African American, but who Allen nonetheless let hang around the program and around Naismith. Both Rupp and McClendon, and there is debate about which one really took the Allen philosophy and schemes and reduced them to a full time, controlled fast breaking game first, took Allen Ball very far from in one direction. They distilled it into a very one dimensional game in comparison to the variety and flexibility with which Allen Ball had traditionally played. Run, run, and run some more, and then run again.Carolina ball, I hate to tell you, really doesn't have all that much to do with Allen Ball at all. I once mistakenly thought that it did, but if you read Smith you find that Allen was a big influence on his life, but that the game that Smith developed really did not have all that much to do with Allen Ball.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

Oh, there is some reliance on the basic principles, as every coach who has ever lived could be said to have had some reliance on basic principles Phog explored and mapped out early on, but Smith is on record as saying that what he did is heavily derived from what he learned as an assistant to an Air Force coach he worked under briefly and from Frank McGuire. Dean ball integrated the game he learned at Air Force with Frank McGuire's New York city game he brought with him from St. Johns down to North Carolina. Look at some old footage of the St. Johns under McGuire and you will see that they played nothing like KU under Allen at the same time. Different philosophies. Different schemes. No doubt Frank McGuire probably learned a few things from Phog Allen did, again, just as every coach could be said to have done. But the philosophy and schemes were different. And as nearly as I have been able to tell from having watched Dean's Carolina teams, and having read what I could find of Dean's, the Carolina system just was not largely a development of Allen Ball. And certainly by the time Dean got done adding all the gimmicks and quirks and so on, there just was practically nothing left of Allen Ball but the philosophy of playing faster rather than slower and dictating tempo. The plays were different. The schemes were different. And frankly, the philosophy had more to do with McGuire than Allen, or Smith's Air Force coach for that matter. All of which brings us to Larry Brown and his influence on Bill Self.Larry Brown's game is kind of a mishmash, if you ask me. Its a combination of Dean Ball and all the free lance schemes he learned in pro ball. Larry has NEVER run what anyone could call the Carolina system. Roy tried to run exactly what Dean ran at UNC during Roys first ten years at KU. Look at the tapes. Roy's boys and Larry's boys were not doing the same things on the floor. And even if Larry ran the identical offense that Dean, or Roy ran, or even if he ran Eddie and Bill's schemes, by the time Larry got done drawing up special plays a third or a half of the time, what you would see would look almost nothing like Dean Ball or Eddie Ball. Larry is, shall we say, an auteur. Larry is making a lot of it up as he goes, and its disposable.Guys like Dean and Roy, on the one hand, or Eddie and Bill, on the other, have a philosophy and schemes that they stick with.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

Did Bill Self combine some of Larry Brown's improvisational concepts with Eddie Ball? Abso!@#$%^&lutely. But let's get real. Self spent one brief year with Larry Brown as a graduate assistant. Self's dad is an Oklahoma high school basketball coach. Self played four years for Iba baller Paul Hansen. Self has admitted to long talks with Hank Iba himself. Self full time assisted under first Leonard Hamilton, and then Eddie Sutton at Okie State. Bill Self has always indicated that Eddie Sutton was a crucial mentor. He has always said that Larry Brown was an inspiring, but brief encounter at the very beginning of his career. Graduate assistants typically do not get the full brain dump of a great coach. And one year is hardly time to learn all, or even most of what a great coach has to impart to one of his acolytes. When I look at one of Bill Self's teams on the floor, whether it was at Tulsa, Illinois, or KU (I didn't see his teams at ORU), they look and play as much like Eddie's teams used to play as Roy's used to look like Dean's.About the only connection with LB's teams I see is that LB often like to play hi-lo and so do Eddie and Bill. John Wooden liked to play hi-lo. John Wooden said Iba was a huge influence on him. Maybe Eddie, LB and Bill are all just aping The Wizard of Westwood. Best to immitate the best. I see significant connections that way. Eddie's and LB's and Bill's teams all make cuts on the floor based on the floor geometry Wooden studied, optimized and said was among the most important of his contributions to the game. But Wooden said Iba was a big influence. He didn't say Allen was a big influence. He said Iba. Larry never says he owes his game to Phog Allen. Dean says he learned a lot about how to coach from Allen, but he doesn't say his game comes from Allen.Take what you want to from all of this, 100.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

Here's what I take from it.Naismith invented basketball.Allen largely invented the manifold aspects of what coaching could involve.A lot of other guys actually developed the a variety of philsophies and schemes either significantly derived from Allen's philsophy and schemes, or largely independent of them, or largely in rebellion against them, or as strategic counter responses to what Phog Daddy laid down. Hank Iba clearly evolved a counter strategy to Allen ball with a different philosophy and some different schemes.Eddie reworked it into its modern form and it has flourished.Bill Self took it and is showing just how much can be done within this framework.I call it Okie Ball, generally, and Eddie ball specific to the contemporary version of it.Bill Ball has not yet sharply evolved the formula. Bill is instead a genius at orchestrating it, probably a greater genius at it than Eddie himself.Allen Ball, in any strict sense of the term, got lost along the way. It got selected out.This is sad, but it is not necessarily permanent.Iba Ball was thought moribund in the 1960s, an anachronism that was destined for the ash heap of basketball.No one could even see the connection between it and Wooden Ball, which Wooden ball was based on.Everyone thought Wooden Ball would take over. But it too proved something of a cul de sac. New young coaches who copied it too closely failed with it.But along came Bob Knight and Eddie Sutton. Both proved to be huge winners with it. One won 900 plus games with a modified version of Iba ball. One won 800 with a sharply different modification of Iba ball--what I call Eddie Ball.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

Everyone thought Knight Ball would proliferate, and it did for awhile. It produced a second big winner in Duke and Coach K.But today, Eddie Ball has outlasted the Knight/Coach K deriviations. Today Eddie Ball is on the rise.My hope is that some bright young basketball mind somewhere can go back to the tapes of Phog Allen's teams and Dick Harp's teams and study them and revitalize this lost brand of ball. I would really like to see a truly KU brand of ball being played at KU again. But we haven't seen it for such a long time.I was very young when Dick Harp coached his last game. As nearly as I can tell, that was the last game of truely KU basketball played.Owens, though schooled in KU ball under Allen and Harp, as nearly as I have been able to tell, really changed over to some hybrid of Allen Ball and Bruce Drake Oklahoma U ball that was another very minor strain of Okie ball. It was a very unfortunate hybrid IMHO and one that deserved to die an early death.But I hold out hope that someone will rediscover and revitalize Allen Ball. I am something of a purist about KU basketball. I did not want Self hired precisely because he was an Okie Baller and I didn't want the bloodlines mixed. But Self is a great coach. Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.It was more important at that moment to get a great coach than it was to get an Allen Ball coach.I have had to learn to love Okie Ball in Allen Field House.Once I educated myself to it it was not so hard to like.But there is a deep yearning in me for someday some coach to come a long and do for Allen Ball what Eddie did for Iba Ball. It may not be possible, for as I said, Harp trained no future masters and it was a long time ago when he coached his last game.Ralph Miller was one hope, but he split Wichita State and left for Oregon State. Ralph Miller, IMHO, comes the closest to have successfully perpetuated Allen Ball into the now Not-So-Modern Era of the early fourth quarter of the 20th Century.I have a dream.I dream Ralph Miller trained some assistants I don't know about, who are now coaching at lesser places, who will some time soon surface and blossom and be ready to be hired by KU after Self.It is the only chance I see now for the real McCoy of Allen Ball to be saved from extinction.And there really is not a very good chance now.What a shame for the legacy.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

UncleMiltyN,I seriously doubt we disagree substantially on anything.Dean and Roy have squandered more talent than any two coaches in the history of the game, because they are both ultimately technicians and systems guys, rather than great bench coaches. Its not bad to be a great technician and systems guy. It is a way to win a lot of games. But great technicians and systems guys always wind-up making decisions in the heat of battle that are internally consistent and logical, but that ignore the brilliantly audacious strategic opportunity.Truly great bench coaches are fearless about contradicting even their own basic tenants in the heat of battle if they can exploit the enemy for a great victory.

jaybate 12 years, 11 months ago

doug_lemoine,Hate to cut the legs out from under your straw argument, but my understanding of the legacy of basketball is so vastly more detailed, nuanced and complicated than what you suggest that nothing you argued has any relevance to me whatsoever.Carolina ball and Okie ball are just two strains of ball that have recent relevance to KU ball.There are many, many more. Frankly, you making such a gross oversimplification of my point of view makes me think you probably know so little about the legacy of basketball and the ways that it has been played that you probably are not capable of any kind of thinking but that which is grossly oversimplified.Capice?

doug_lemoine 12 years, 11 months ago

@Jaybate: Wow, get personal. I'm sure that you've gone into great detail, nuance and complication on just about every basketball topic known to man at some point in time, but recently I've just heard you reference Okieball and Carolinaball. Maybe you could point me to the Jaybate comment almanac that I can refer to before I engage you in conversation? Or should I just expect to be flamed when I disagree with you? Either way, yeah, "capice."

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