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Friday, August 21, 2009

Title would have been vacated

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The 2009-10 Kansas University school year is officially under way.

“Everybody’s in class. We had a team meeting this evening. Everybody is ready to roll,” KU basketball coach Bill Self said Thursday night upon the conclusion of the first day of the first semester.

“It was similar to every (first) team meeting we’ve had. We went over our basic guidelines on things like conditioning, how to handle their business.”

The Jayhawks will begin individual workouts on Monday, KU’s seventh-year coach said.

“They’ll be lifting and doing conditioning and getting acclimated to school,” he said of what will take place until the start of the two-week Boot Camp in late September. The season kicks off with Late Night in the Phog on Oct. 16.

It’s all moot:

Let’s pretend for a moment Mario Chalmers missed a late three-pointer and KU lost the 2008 national championship game to Memphis.

Would KU have been deemed national champion Thursday, following the NCAAs ruling that Memphis must forfeit all its games in 2007-08 for using an ineligible player?

“No,” KU associate athletic director Jim Marchiony said Thursday, indicating there simply would have been no 2008 NCAA champ in the record books. “They (Tigers) would have vacated the title. Fortunately that’s moot.”

Remember, Memphis beat UCLA in a Final Four semifinal that season, so the Bruins also would have reason to argue they could have played KU in the title game and perhaps won the crown.

Other Final Four teams throughout history to have their season vacated?

Villanova in 1971, Memphis in 1985, UMass in 1996 and Michigan in 1992.

Knight’s in-homes:

Brandon Knight, the No. 1 basketball prospect in the recruiting class of 2010, will hold an in-home visit with Self sometime in September, Rivals.com reported Thursday.

Knight, a 6-foot-3 point guard from Pine Crest High in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., has also promised in-home visits to coaches from Kentucky and UConn. Knight also is considering Florida, Florida State, Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami and Syracuse.

Comments

Chicago_JHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Didn't Michigan vacate their 1993 FF, too?

kansaswingnut 10 years, 9 months ago

WOW! Calimari owns 40% of the vacated seasons in the history of college basketball! Hope you feel good about yourselves UK.

barchawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Calipari - from the Italian, Calimari - an eight-armed, two-tentacled beast known to sink to unfathomable depths. Slimy to the touch, the Calipari emits a cloud of ink to disorient would-be trackers, then darts off to find safer waters.

jacqueshock 10 years, 9 months ago

So, according to this story, Memphis officially has ONE Final Four, instead of three. What happened in 1985? That leaves only 1973 and everyone just remembers Bill Walton's game and not Memphis.

Chris Shaw 10 years, 9 months ago

chicaoj_jayhawk: I am pretty sure Michigan vacated both the 92 and 93 FF's

justanotherfan 10 years, 9 months ago

Michigan vacated their entire 1993 season (FF included) but only vacated the last two games of the 1992 season (national semifinal and title game).

DallasHawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Love it Barchawk! Pretty much sums up the snake oil salesman.

JayCeph 10 years, 9 months ago

I'm not sure I think it is an equitable punishment to vacate all the wins Memphis got in '08. I'm not a Memphis fan and was ecstatic when KU went to overtime and got the biggest 'W' of the decade in San Antonio.

However, if the NCAA clearinghouse green-lighted Rose, shouldn't they be held accountable, not the school that was operating off of good faith that the NCAA did their job and gave them a player they could use?

If this is an equitable punishment, what's to stop them (the NCAA) from punishing KU later down the line if it comes to light that DA's grades were fudged by his high school history teacher (or whatever)?

Why should the school and the fans be punished for an error committed by the clearinghouse? Isn't that their job?!? To verify the eligibility of the player? If they screwed up, why does the school have to pay the price? This hardly seems just.

Frankenhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

JayCeph...I agree with you completely. IF the case was simply that the NCAA clearinghouse cleared him and Memphis did all that their president claimed yesterday in her press conference then I do not see how Memphis should be punished. I also had that thought about Arthur yesterday. However, apparently the NCAA wholeheartedly disagrees with what the Memphis president claimed yesterday that Memphis did their "due dilligence" in investigating this....or perhaps even worse....Calipari and crew set up the sit in for Rose's SAT/ACT whichever it was, and the NCAA found out...in which case...how does Coach Cal come out of this cleanly?

Joe Baker 10 years, 9 months ago

barchawk (anonymous) says... Calipari - from the Italian, Calimari - an eight-armed, two-tentacled beast known to sink to unfathomable depths. Slimy to the touch, the Calipari emits a cloud of ink to disorient would-be trackers, then darts off to find safer waters.

This is the perfect definition of irony! So true, so very true! Thanks for providing this for our daily Calasleazy lesson for the day. We just keep learning more and more about Mr. Sleaz!

Stay tuned more sleaz lessons to come and my guess is it will involve some slime on a Wall !!

RockChalkGuy 10 years, 9 months ago

Does Memphis now hold the record for worst record ever? 0-40 would be pretty hard to beat.

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

I believe the timing and severity of the infraction by Rose (and whoever else was involved) to cheat the NCAA eligibility requirements, and the inaction by the Memphis compliance administration makes this ruling valid. Rose took the SAT twice and couldn’t get a high enough score. Then, just before the NCAA deadline, his accomplice took and “passed” it.

Was there really enough time for the NCAA to investigate SAT fraud before the eligibility deadline? Allegedly, allegations of SAT fraud hit Memphis by November 2007. But, anyone who knows anything about standardized tests (SAT/ACT) knows that dramatically raising a test score on the third attempt is virtually impossible. Compliance officers at Memphis had to know that this was a red flag and that they needed to investigate well before November 2007. I feel bad for the Memphis fans, but their university let them down, not the NCAA.

JayCeph 10 years, 9 months ago

jayhawkerjoel, I appreciate your position and see the logic in it. However, my issue is with the NCAA clearinghouse.

Regarding your point about time being of the essence, if your sole purpose is to validate and clear the player, than that is what you need to do. Nothing more and nothing less. That is your job. Do it.

Time should never be blamed for doing a poor job. "Oh sorry sir. I didn't mean to sew up your abdomen with my scalpel still inside you but, I was pressed for time. I'm afraid I'm going to have to charge you extra to remove it."

This just doesn't play out along any lines of reasonable action. If they are going to clear someone, then they need to stand by it. If they were duped, own up and take it on the chin. Don't take it out on someone else for not doing your job for you.

Again, this punishment just doesn't seem equitable.

Dr. Robert s. Mosser 10 years, 9 months ago

The NCAA doesn't hurry. They have had 4 years to come up with a decision on the issue of Reggie Bush and the $265,000 his agent put up buying the family a home. The evidence is a slam dunk but then USC gets to live by different rules. Even Leinhart was paying something like $275 for a $1300/mo apt. Nothing about them vacating any championshlp or games won.

Michael Leiker 10 years, 9 months ago

Rock Chalk Guy - I would imagine that if you vacate the season they don't go down as losses, but that the games just never took place as far as Memphis' record is concerned. Correct?

Dyrk Dugan 10 years, 9 months ago

this "clearinghouse" process at the NCAA needs looked at seriously...i agree with you JayCeph.

he actually failed the test three times...and then all on the fourth try he passes? in Detroit? huge red flags already...and the fact that it was all cleared that quickly doesn't make sense.

and then Memphis knows by the fall of 2007, that they may have a problem on their hands and did nothing, what does that say about them? who's in charge of their compliance?

and then the piece de resistance (just a little wordplay there)...the testing center sent two letters to the Rose home in Chicago...basically asking what's up with this test...and that's the main evidence the committee looked at in issuing it's ruling. (that there was no response.) why didn't anyone there respond? had the whole family moved to Memphis? they couldn't have sent one letter to the bball offices at Memphis?

it's all very shaky and shady on all fronts. i believe, that if Memphis can show the address the testing center sent the letters to, was either incorrect, or no one there could have legally responded, then they have a good case. I mean, Derrick WAS at Memphis....so he couldn't have responded.

as the original point in this article says, it's all moot anyway since Mario hit the shot, and the comeback was complete. and at the time, he was eligible to play.

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

JayCeph,

Scalpel analogy – very nice : )

I’m not saying the NCAA Clearinghouse is flawless and treats everyone equitably. But, they are under pressure to clear players. In this case, I believe they cleared Rose once all the “required” numbers came in. I also believe they saw a pattern and it raised a red flag. This red flag was sent to Memphis in due process by November 2007.

As I understand the process, the NCAA priority in the fall is to resolve football player eligibility questions as the season has started. It makes sense to me that the NCAA would clear a basketball player in say, August 2007, but then raise questions with the school by November 2007 as no games had likely been played.

Now here’s the real question - Did Memphis take the “appropriate” actions when performing their due diligence? Did it follow their own compliance standards when the red flag was raised? And, did Memphis follow the NCAA due diligence standards?

This is hard to determine because Memphis compliance standards may have been subjectively altered for the men’s basketball program and/or just for Derrick Rose. If Memphis gave Rose preferential treatment while performing their own or NCAA due diligence, then the NCAA has a case.

Apparently, the NCAA has ruled that Memphis did not follow appropriate compliance procedures during their investigations into Rose’s actions. And without seeing the details of their timeline and due diligence expectations, I have to believe that what Memphis did was not appropriate and deserving of the punishment. That doesn’t mean I believe the NCAA clearinghouse is perfect, but that I believe inappropriate actions/inactions were taken by Memphis compliance.

Marcia Parsons 10 years, 9 months ago

I think the point is being missed here that the NCAA doesn't administer the SAT tests and can only rely on the report they receive from the testing agency. When the agency tagged the final (successful) test, they reported it to the NCAA and that's when Memphis was notified (October) and chose to play Rose anyway.

dmb41fan 10 years, 9 months ago

So, as I understand it, unless the appeal goes through and is accepted by the NCAA, Memphis will have 38 losses last year, and Calipari may have to pay back his bonus. ($300K), does anyone know if they will modify his win-loss record as a coach to show the 38 losses as well. There are several coaches who have over an 85% wining percent, and he used to be one of the elites on that list? Will the NCAA make sure his coaching record gets adjusted? I think it would be terrible if someday he has his name hung in the rafters in Bluegrass land with an fallacy of a coaching record.

Ron_Kellogg 10 years, 9 months ago

They have calimari, we've got the Bill Self Burrito

Joe Ross 10 years, 9 months ago

I agree with Oldalum...

"The only reason the NCAA can’t blow the whole (national title game) up is that, unlike in its investigation into Memphis, it has not found that Kansas was aware of the transgressions involving Arthur. Institutional culpability is the make-or-break issue, and KU came out clean. Memphis didn’t, so it loses its record 38 wins from that season."

source: http://campuscorner.kansascity.com/node/141

Scatterhawk 10 years, 9 months ago

Wait, truehawk, how is that irony?

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

klineisanazi 10 years, 9 months ago

Frankenhawk, the NCAA did not make Memphis forfeit all their games because they failed to do due diligence. They never even got to that point. They ruled that because Rose's SAT was invalidated , Rose was ineligible, therefore the games must be forfeited. I would suggest everyone look at the NCAA site and their ruling. It is pretty scary stuff if you are a KU fan. They even included part of the transcript of the hearing in which Memphis was arguing due diligence, and they were cut off by a member of the committee with the single question: was Rose eligible to play if his SAT score was invalidated? Memphis of course could only answer "no". That was all she wrote.

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

kline,

I read in the extended AP story that the NCAA committee pressed Memphis hard about their lack of action in November 2007. They wanted to know why Memphis didn't bench Rose when his eligibility first came into question at that time. Memphis said their independent legal rep spoke to Rose and they were satisfied that he did nothing wrong. Apparently, the NCAA committee was not impressed with this rigorous investigation. I believe the harsh penalty handed down to Memphis was directly related to their poor due diligence.

In fall 2006, KU benched Darnell Jackson for several games because of potential illegal contact with a KU alum in OKC who had befriended his family years prior. If KU was smart enough to take cautious, proactive measures, why wasn't Memphis?

JayCeph 10 years, 9 months ago

I still don't see the point of these questions about 'if' and 'should' regarding the actions of Memphis' athletic program. The fact remains that the NCAA, itself, cleared Rose to play. Why are they punishing other people for their mistake.

"Uh, excuse me Miss but even though I served you that under-cooked and bacteria-ridden hamburger, it was really your duty to fully inspect my work, question the validity of whether or not I did my job of making sure it was a quality product in the first place and then make the conscious choice not to eat it. Since you did not do these things, not only will you get gravely ill but I will have to ask you to repay me back for the cost of the resources it took me to produce this 'belly bomb in the first place."

Whu?!?

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

Look at the NCAA report, pages 12 – 14. Even after the initial November 2007 notice of potential problems, there was an ongoing investigation between the Illinois Inspector General’s Office and the SAT Security office (ETS) starting in December 2007. Both Memphis and Rose were independently notified of this ongoing investigation and they did nothing. Derrick Rose NEVER responded directly to any of the letters sent to him.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/ab3716804f47575cb190f9a183d1a534/20090820+Memphis+Public+Inf+Rpt.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ab3716804f47575cb190f9a183d1a534

Under these circumstances, the NCAA was also waiting for the results of the investigation. Derrick Rose and Memphis did nothing to bring the truth out into the open during the investigation. The NCAA cleared him to play, but could do nothing else until the outside investigation was done. Rose knew the truth. Memphis did almost nothing to uncover the truth. Memphis and Cal should have benched Rose – this is a no-brainer for anyone worried about compliance.

justanotherfan 10 years, 9 months ago

Let's turn this around though.

The SAT test center flags hundreds of scores every year for a variety of reasons. Most you never find out about because no one really cares about some pimple faced freshman getting his SAT score flagged. Most of those flagged scores remain validated. A few get overturned.

So the NCAA sends Memphis a notice that they are looking into the Rose score. Memphis asks Rose - Did you take the test? Rose says yes. Now Memphis has a decision. By not being in a BCS conference, Memphis' most important part of their schedule is their non-conference. They need those wins to get a high seed. Do you sit one of your best players while the NCAA continues investigating, an investigation that didn't conclude until THIS SUMMER?

Also, an overlooked fact is that the NCAA Clearinghouse actually cleared Derrick Rose two different times. Once after he was admitted to Memphis, and again after Memphis noticed a grade change on his high school transcript. This fact is at the center of the Memphis appeal. If the flagged test was such a concern, the Clearinghouse never should have cleared him the second time.

The ball was in the NCAA's hands and they punted. The NCAA has held up clearance of other athletes before because of questions about grades/test scores (Morris twins anyone?). If the NCAA can hold them up an extra several weeks (and make them miss the Canada trip, which could have been valuable for them), surely they could have not cleared Rose if they had issues with his SATs. But they didn't.

Chris Shaw 10 years, 9 months ago

great posts guys, I've enjoyed the last 4 or 5.

100 10 years, 9 months ago

Apparently Memphis will challenge this.

Since the test was in Detroit, & the connection to Wes Anderson is very well known for Calipari, it seems that Memphis will do some more digging before showing up in Indianapolis for their challange.

The first two people called to the witness stand just about have to be John Calipari &...

Wes Anderson, the man connected to the Nike shoe money, the man who connects Calipari to his bigtime recruits in unique ways (aka walking Lebron around campus for Coach Cal). Also, ironically, who spends most of his time in Detroit.

Let's be real about this. Put yourself in Calipari's shoes. Everybody at Memphis knows how coveted Cal & Wes had found Derrick Rose to be since he was 14. Everyone knows part of the ticket to get him is through his brother -- fly him around, take him to games, things like that -- in essence do things other universities wouldn't do.

Now it's November 2007. Everybody knows the greatness of this team assembled in Memphis, especially the AD. Now. Seemingly out of nowhere a letter arrives to the compliance office about Derrick Rose's SAT situation.

Do you think they'd call the AD on this and let him know? How about Calipari, the man who'd cr*p his pants if he lost his star player? Of course they'd talk to Calipari! Do they think we're stupid?

Also, so Rose is mailed the same letter. Do you seriously think Rose wouldn't approach Calipari about this "weird" letter? "What should I do Coach?"

Afterall, what did Cal always say? "If you have a problem, come talk to me first. I'm all about the student athlete, first."

In short, during the challenge with the NCAA, it seems quite apparent Cal will be brought to the stand, not by cell phone this time. And more than likely, Memphis doesn't have anyone to protect anymore -- Cal has burnt them badly & it seems very probable much more of the truth on what Cal knew & when will be revealed.

John Randall 10 years, 9 months ago

""Rock Chalk Guy - I would imagine that if you vacate the season they don't go down as losses, but that the games just never took place as far as Memphis' record is concerned. Correct?""

""So, as I understand it, unless the appeal goes through and is accepted by the NCAA, Memphis will have 38 losses last year, and Calipari may have to pay back his bonus. ""

The wins are vacated, not the losses. Memphis' (and Calipari's) official record for 07-08 now reads 0 wins, 2 losses. Just as UMass went 0-1 in 95-96.

My question: what is Calipari's W-L record without those 69 vacated wins?

100 10 years, 9 months ago

Yes, that's true.

Memphis will challenge this. If the NCAA again confirms again that they will lose all 38 wins after the challenge, Calipari will have to pay Memphis $300,000, chump change compared to the essential $20 million bonus he got from the attention of coaching Rose & Dozier.

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

KU62,

If you're going to use Mangy's cabeza for your avatar, you need to ask JNewell for a cinerama avatar box!

jaybate 10 years, 9 months ago

No matter how you salt the dog, Calipari has already won this game.

There are some guys who are just too clever. They stay ahead of the game and never really get a come-upance proportional to what they do.

Its fun to make fun of him, but KU and its fans need to understand that the only way to beat Coach Cal is on the floor, as our Jayhawks did once already for a championship.

Don't get mad. Don't get even. Beat him for the rings.

JayCeph 10 years, 9 months ago

anthonyzal, despite your lowbrow epithets, I will persevere to address the points you bring to the table:

defense of fanhood: I wanted to be perfectly clear that I was not a Memphis lurker on this site posting an egregious 'support' statement for their school and tried to establish a level-headed attitude toward the allegations at hand.

If you feel as though this is idiotic, I'm sorry for your myopic views. Since you chose to call me an idiot, it is clear just how little you care for the integrity of your character and how you are perceived by those that read your posts.

accountability: Furthermore, I have not once tried to argue in favor of exonerating Memphis for their culpability in this situation. That has yet to truly be defined or explored by any of the parties that I have read about.

I have to tried to discuss the very thing you are harping on... accountability. If the NCAA clearinghouse did their job, saw a discrepancy in Rose's test results and delayed in their approval of his status as 'eligible', then I doubt that there would be this problem today. If they would have treated Rose's case in the same manner as they treated the Morris twins, then I doubt we are having this (dare I say) conversation.

But, they in fact cleared him. Their job was to act a middle-man, an intermediary responsible for determining the eligibility of a player. Once they give the green light, you go. End of story (or at least this one).

Now, it seems like all the blame is being pointed at Memphis. This is just plain silly. Their culpability in this (along with Calipari and Anderson) have yet to be outlined. Memphis is getting all the fire from the officials... the very officials responsible for clearing Rose to play.

This doesn't smack of hypocrisy to you? An unjust distribution of authority and very little personal accountability? The very thing you seem to rest your hat on is the very thing you are making excuses for.

Joel Hood 10 years, 9 months ago

JayCeph,

Although we disagree on the level of culpability we believe Memphis shares in this fiasco, I think we’d both agree that a full-blown investigation into “how Derrick Rose was enabled to cheat on the SAT” would be a wonderful drama. Although a fabulous basketball player, I’m not really sure Derrick had the resources and/or mental capacity to put together this SAT swindle by himself. I wonder who could have helped him….????

Get a grand jury, a few subpoenas, and put some of these scoundrels under oath. It is not implausible that the Illinois Inspector Generals Office or a like body in Michigan could launch an inquiry. How many subordinates and associates would be will willing to perjure themselves for Richard Milhous Calipari after seeing what happened to Chris Webber?

BTW JayCeph – if you’re an idiot, at least you understand the tenants of basic civil discourse on this message board.

kansasYEA 10 years, 9 months ago

jayceph-- obviously you are not an idiot, and there are valid questions re the role of the NCAA clearinghouse.

However, I think it is naive to overlook Memphis' culpability in this matter-- if they covered up any wrongdoing with Rose, and intended to deceive the clearinghouse, then Memphis really just succeeded in their illegal behavior. Clearinghouses do investigate and uncover wrongdoing and fraud but if they are ultimately deceived are you placing that blame on them or on the school that committed the fraud?

I would have to say the school, in this case Memphis.

JayCeph 10 years, 9 months ago

jayhawkerjoel/kansasYEA - I do not think we should overlook the role Memphis played in this. I do not think we should overlook the role Calipari played in this. I do not think we need to overlook the role Rose played in this.

You are both correct in suspecting that where there is smoke, there is surely fire. I agree wholeheartedly.

What I take exception to is the general lack of accountability on the clearinghouse's part. They are acting as though they had no role in this. I am not okay with this. It smacks of an undefined double standard and zero accountability or responsibility. They want the responsibility (and authority) to clear someone to play but appear unwilling to own up to their mistake should that clearance become suspect.

anthonyzal, I am still waiting...

Buck08 10 years, 9 months ago

there goes jaybate trying to be a professional writer again....he's so funny, you silly little infant we all know your at least trying, so thats good. :)

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