Saturday, April 25, 2009

C.J. Henry talented, too


Henrys have deep KU connection

When Xavier and C.J. Henry play for KU basketball next year, they'll be following in family footsteps.

Carl Henry laughed after learning his son, C.J., would be a sophomore, not a freshman, at Kansas University next season.

“It doesn’t matter,” Carl said.

That’s because C.J., a 6-foot-3 red-shirt freshman guard at the University of Memphis — who will transfer to KU to play on the same team as his brother Xavier — turns 23 in May.

And like Xavier ... C.J. hopes to be on a fast-track to the NBA.

“A lot of people are going to be shocked when they see ‘C’ play,” Carl said in a phone interview Friday from Oklahoma City. “He will play like a grown man.

“I believe he will (play in NBA),” Carl added. “I’ve seen a lot of guys (as coach of Athletes First AAU) who have advanced to that level. He has that ability. He hasn’t played in three years so people may have forgotten about him. He’ll attack you all the time. He can go right or left, can shoot the basketball and can jump. He can play.”

C.J. Henry will be a soph next season because his college career started after the age of 21 and the clock continues to tick each year after that.

It’s believed he’ll be eligible to play immediately at KU instead of having to sit out a year.

“According to the NCAA rules, with C.J. being a non-recruited athlete, his scholarship was being financed through the (New York) Yankees which makes him qualified for a one-time transfer rule. He’ll be able to play,” C.J.’s mom, Barbara Henry, said.

Barbara agrees with Carl that C.J. will make an immediate impact here.

“C.J. is very quick. He’s a point guard who is very strong,” said Barbara, who like Carl, played hoops at KU. “He will bring maturity, strength. He can shoot as well as post at 6-foot-3.”

C.J. — he signed a $1.6 million signing bonus with the New York Yankees in 2005, but saw his pro baseball career end last fall — is confident he can play hoops at the highest level.

His broken foot that kept him out this past season is expected to be fully healed in time for summer workouts.

“My game will end up speaking for itself,” C.J. Henry said Thursday in a phone conversation. “I think I’m going to play (immediately in KU’s rotation).”

The former Putnam City High standout further addressed his role in a Thursday afternoon interview with Yahoo!Sports.

“They’re loaded,” C.J. said of the Jayhawks. “It’s going to be a good team, a well-balanced team. Sherron (Collins) is a point, but he’s more of a scorer. They can play him off the ball, too. I think there’s going to be plenty of opportunities. I just have to go in there and take them. I’m a lot more mature than most college kids. Strength-wise … playing against kids that are 18 and 19 is going to be different. Hopefully that and my work ethic will put me over the edge.”

l Carl to live here and OKC: Carl Henry said he’ll likely keep his place in Oklahoma City as well as live in Lawrence part of the year.

“Actually I’ll continue to coach Athletes First for NIKE. The season is March to August,” Henry said. “I’ll be in Lawrence (the rest of the time). Do you have any nice apartments there?” he added with a laugh.

Barbara Henry, who works for Hertz in Oklahoma City, hopes to catch on with that company here and live in Lawrence year-round.

l Schedule update: KU will play at both Tennessee and Temple during the 2009-10 nonconference season. The Temple game will be in the Owls’ campus arena, 10,200-seat Liacouras Center in Philadelphia.

KU also will travel to UCLA as part of the Pac-10/Big 12 Hardwood Challenge. The Bruins will meet KU in a return game at Allen Fieldhouse the following season.

KU also will compete in a tournament that originally was going to be hosted by the University of Memphis. Instead, the round-robin tournament will be sponsored by the National Basketball Hall of Fame, ESPN reported Friday.

The format will give KU, Memphis, Louisville and Arkansas three home games against low- to mid-major teams. The fourth game will be the previously reported doubleheader pitting KU vs. Memphis and Louisville vs. Arkansas on Nov. 17 in St. Louis.

There have been whispers Memphis wants out of the tourney now that coach John Calipari has left for Kentucky. KU officials have not heard that rumor.

KU is working on scheduling two home games against high-major competition.

“They will be good games,” said KU’s schedule maker, senior associate AD Larry Keating. “This year, Temple and Tennessee are returns of home-and-homes so we have two open now.”

l Where will Lance wind up?: The Brooklyn Eagle newspaper believes Lance Stephenson will surface at St. John’s now that Xavier Henry has chosen KU. Stephenson, 6-6 from Brooklyn, N.Y. had a final three of KU, St. John’s and Maryland. on Friday reported that Stephenson was still considering KU despite the fact KU has filled its scholarship allotment of 13.


KUPROUD 12 years, 7 months ago

It's about time some props were given to C.J. He's a very good player that KU recruited in 2005, and barring injury, he will be a key component to this team.

Greg Lux 12 years, 7 months ago

Wow so much talent ..... so little time ... I know it will work out but I see Red ... as in shirt in the future of a couple of players or at worst one red and one gone ( this one I don't want to think about ). What will HCBS do if Lance still wants to come to KU? I know he's not going to say no. Stranger things have happened but I can't remember when we have been so deeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. Real Deep.

Rock Chalk

Steve Yeakel 12 years, 7 months ago

Brady's dad can pay for him this year if we want to give Lance a scholarship, I trust Coach Self to figure all that out. What a huge plus if CJ can play a great point for us this year, watch out if Bill gets enough great guards (Sherron, X, CJ, Lance), like he had with Sherron/Mario/Russell, and had at Illinois, and it could be good for Tyshawn and Elijah to watch and learn for a year. With Cole and the great rebounder/defenders in Robinson and Wythey, and the Mario and the Morris twins, this could be a very, very special year for us. Thank you God. Go Jayhawks!

KUball14 12 years, 7 months ago

Wow Bill Self is going to have an overwhelming job deciding playing time. We have Sherron and Tyshawn, who both can play point, CJ Henry who says he thinks he will be in the rotation, and then a very athletic Elijah Johnson.

There is almost no way this team can't go to the final four, we will destroy teams just from our raw athletic ability...

KEITHMILES05 12 years, 7 months ago

CJ can talk all he wants. He hasn't played a minute of college ball. There will be issues of learning curve of Self's system. It won't be easy to come in and displace the current starters.

iluvdbskxjayhawks 12 years, 7 months ago

I know we have a very good team, but don't forget other teams out there are just as good as we are.

Robert Brock 12 years, 7 months ago

The idea that Lance could still come to KU is comical. We have no scholarships and its hard to believe Brady would give up his scholarship for a guy who will probably take his spot on the court. If you stuck Lance on the roster, there would be too few touches to go around; how could you manage a roster like that? At that point, team chemistry could be a serious issue. Reed, Little and Releford will already have a difficult time seeing the floor. The roster really looks perfect as it is today.

Michael Bratisax 12 years, 7 months ago

iluvdbskxjayhawks says 'I know we have a very good team, but don't forget other teams out there are just as good as we are.'

Like who? I can't think of a single team that has such a high caliber of returning players combined with a top five recruiting class. I agree that we shouldn't get cocky.. but this team with Coach Self is easily the most talented.

BrockIII says 'The idea that Lance could still come to KU is comical. We have no scholarships and its hard to believe Brady would give up his scholarship for a guy who will probably take his spot on the court.'

Your analysis 100% on target. Anybody thinking differently is either somewhere over the rainbow or just doesn't understand the situation.

Al Salazar 12 years, 7 months ago

HCBS said yesterday in the 'Star' that hey may redshirt players this season. While not definite it's looking more probable.

CaramelMacchMan 12 years, 7 months ago

First thing in Self system is Defense and that is twice as work than Offense.

C.J. Good luck my man!

Clarence Haynes 12 years, 7 months ago

CJ is going to be a steady force in the KU backcourt. Another CJ positive will be his maturity which will be good for some of the younsters surrounding him.

Dirk Medema 12 years, 7 months ago

Thanks for the extra insights into CJ.

CaramelMacchMan says... First thing in Self's system is Defense (& rebounding) and that is twice (as much) as work than Offense.

Good observation. It is part of the reason that I expect CJ (maturity, professionalism) & TRob to start. That being said, practices should be amazingly competitive, because there are so many options for the rotation.

Sherron/EJ/Tyrel CJ/Tyshawn/Brady X/Mario/Marcus/Travis TRob/Marcus/Markieff Cole/Withey*

Tony Bandle 12 years, 7 months ago

As much as I am hoping for Lance to be a Jayhawk, the reality of this "abundance of riches" roster is sinking in. I am really sad because I think KU would have been so good for Lance to discover himself as a man not just some OAD, highlight reel.

At St.John's he will be surrounded by the same bunch of hangers-ons, leeches and synchophants that have done him no favors in his life development so far. Don't get me wrong...I am thrilled with X and CJ but, had it been my choice, for many reasons besides basketball, I would have chosen Lance.

As far as this roster goes...let's take a rational look. 14 capable division one players with a standard Bill Self rotation of 10 indicates something is going to happen. Someone is going to redshirt and possibly someone is going to leave. With Condor, Sherron, Mario and X [if CJ gets to play], that will be gone, leaves four spots next year Having CJ is like being the only Division One school with 14 scholarships.

2010-2011 roster: Withey CJ Reed Taylor Morningstar ??? Robinson Woolridge ??? Marcus Markieff ??? Johnson Releford

Damn, we're still loaded...and that's without the yet unrecruited class 2010!!!!!!

Tony Bandle 12 years, 7 months ago


Your points are well taken, however, look at your own lists. The candidate for redshirt who would benenfit most from a year of practice and still retain eligibilty, the guy with the most undeveloped physical upside, the player with the best chance coming back as an impact guy is also listed in your category with the most players.....that guy is Travis Releford.

In my opinion, of all the players on this roster, Travis benefits the most from the redshirt while hurting the team the least. If you disagree, please let me know with your explanation. I know you have put up many sound posts so I do respect your opinions.

Eric Bernauer 12 years, 7 months ago

Just letting my mind wonder this morning and I came up with this: Is it possible that Self went after the Henrys so hard was to get CJ? I see X and Lance as kind of interchangeable. Size, position, and both are OAD, or at least thinking that way. Either would provide that 3rd scoring option we were needing so bad. So why risk losing a ready-to-commit LS and the Henrys both while pursuing the Henrys? Maybe it was CJ. Not that coming in he has the credentials of either LS or X. But he isn't hamburger either. For the next three years, Self picked up a D1 guard without using a scholarship. Both KU, UNC and I don't know who else were recruiting CJ as a high schooler and that says something right there. As mentioned above , Self now effectively has an extra scholarship player. When you are talking about the level that the Jayhawks are playing and recruiting against, I'm talking top 5 nationally year in and year out, an extra scholarship is huge. Now a cynic might say the only reason Self recruited CJ initially was to get X. But wasn't X only an 8th grader when CJ originally committed to Kansas? I expect he was an elite 8th grader, but I doubt he was so good at that point that Self would have wasted a scholarship on CJ for four years if he didn't think CJ worthy. That would have effectively put Kansas in the hole for 4 years with a competitive disadvantage. I don't see Self doing that. Oh well, it is all just speculation on all of our parts, but I wouldn't be surprised to see CJ surprise a lot of us.

You know watching the Griffin brothers this year, Blake got all the headlines, however OU wouldn't have gone near as far as they did without Taylor.

truefan 12 years, 7 months ago

Interesting outlook waymilky. I am really excited about getting the Henry Brothers as a package deal. I agree that X and Lance are interchangable, but two Henrys is better than one Stephenson. Bill Self got a steal when he landed the buy one get one free deal in X and CJ. They are both scholarship worthy on any team, but not having to use a scholly on CJ is just an added bonus and added depth at the 1, 2 and 3 spots. Next year makes me nervous though. There are some other good teams out there, but I can't remember the last time KU was the pre-season favorite to win it all.

I also agree that OU needed both Taylor brothers to be as good as they were.

David Hall 12 years, 7 months ago

lance will not be at ku coach say that he is done with recruiting for this year

rockchalk007 12 years, 7 months ago

Jayhawks minutes distribution 2010 (just for fun) - 200 min/game

         Early Season    Late Season   End Season/Tourney

Sherron 30 30 35 Tyshawn 25 20 20 EJ 10 10 0 CJ 10 10 0 Brady 15 15 15 Xavier 20 25 35 Mario 15 15 20 Marcus 20 20 20 Markieff 15 10 10 T-Rob 15 10 10 Cole 25 30 30 Jeff 0 5 5

rockchalk007 12 years, 7 months ago

Tyrell and Travis redshirt (be good for them and for the team if they do...)

Go Hawks!

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago

C-E-N-T-E-R ! ! ! ! ! ! !

The lack there of...

In the midst of all the euphoria, I still say the underlying problem now facing the program is center the season after Cole leaves.

Even if the fates smile on Self and he manages to land a Kevin Love, Greg Oden grade center, a guy who can step in an play the 5 at a D1 level, as a freshman (that rarest of all recruits), they almost never win rings, even when they join experienced, talented teams. Wilt couldn't do it. Danny couldn't do it. Love and Oden couldn't do it. Tyler Hansbrough couldn't do it. Jabbar and Walton are the only guys who did it and they were freaks in a freakish program with a freakish wizard for a coach.

Do you turn your back on Lance? Not if he wants to come. Not if there is no center to be had.

But if there is a center out there thinking about backing out of his LOI, KU needs him bad now, not next recruiting year. We need him now, so he can be seasoned and ready to step in for Cole.

Cole took a merciless pounding this year earning his spurs and cred, and he was a sophomore.

It should be against the law to allow freshmen centers to start. The NCAA should prohibit it.

Every year, D1 is littered with the carcasses of 3 or 4 5-star centers who get eaten alive their freshman year for every one that really performs well. And, I repeat, the one who performs well almost never carries his team to a ring.

Its war in the paint now.

We're certain to have some really great, experienced talent around the first year after Cole is gone. Please, basketball god, let Bill find a center now. Don't saddle all that wonderful, experienced talent with a freshman matter how good he may be.

Withey and Kieff are 4s. Don't make them fake being 5s two seasons from now.

Somone find the antidote to the drug Calipari gave Orton to fool him into staying at UK. Give it to Orton quick. Maybe there is still a chance. Probably not...

So is there a great unsigned center in Zaire, or Shanghai, or Jakarta, or Sao Paulo? Come on, there's gotta be some guy somewhere. There's billions and billions of persons on this planet. There has to be one 7' tall alpha male with a jaw of granite and a body cut out of solid marble and a great instinctive rebounder with a jump hook--a guy who can defend the post and block more incoming than an ABM system. There has to be!!!

PittsburghJayhawk 12 years, 7 months ago

jaybate says...

"Wilt couldn't do it. Danny couldn't do it. Love and Oden couldn't do it. Tyler Hansbrough couldn't do it. Jabbar and Walton are the only guys who did it..."

Cole did it.

I know, he didn't start, but who was our starting 5 on that team? Darnell? The way Self uses his bigs, how important is it that we have a true center?

rcjh22 12 years, 7 months ago

Even if HCBS says he thinks he is done recruiting... If Lance Stephenson calls him up and says he wants to come to KU I guarantee Self would be just fine with that. Call Brady tell him to tell his daddy to take out his checkbook and bam we go undefeated next season.

From the look of it next season's schedule could include some amazing games. Does anyone else like the idea of killing Memphis?

C.J. has a lot of natural ability obviously so he will play next year but how hard he works on the off season to knock off the rust depends on how much he does play.

T_Hawker 12 years, 7 months ago

Usually good stuff jaybate, but you posted a stinker this time around. Withey was highly rated by as a big man recruited to play center by several name schools. Let's see what he can do before turning him into a PF, shall we?

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago


I watched tape of Withey and he's a 7 footer packing a whopping 225 pounds. He's a finesse player in that tape. Maybe you have seen something more recent that I have not. He's got a nice J. He doesn't seem to have much spring. Runs the floor well. Plays smoothly. I think he would make a terrific 4, or even a terrific and unprecedented 3--talk about a mismatch!!

But the guy would get beaten to a bloody pulp trying to defend the post against the thug ball teams KU has to play against. Playing the post requires a postman's mentality. Dave Cowens and Bill Russell were only 6'9" tall each, but they had postman's mentality and toughness and strength come out of every pore. Alonzo Mourning was only 6'10" on a tape when there was a lot contraction error due to coldness. But between the ears, he was all postman. Wes Unseld was only 6'6" for crying out loud, but he was a consumate postman. He took people out and when he wasn't taking them out, he looked like probably wanted to. The post has never been just about being tall, though it certainly helps. It has never been a place for finesse players, though over time alpha males like Wilt Chamberlain develop all manner of finesse moves to make life easier. But just ask 7'1" Eric Chenowith about how useful it is to be a mousey finesse player with a lot of skills. Chenowith put up very respectable numbers, when you look back at his stats, but he just got owned psychologically all the time and he never could overcome intimidation. Cheno could not really even play the 4, because he didn't really have enough mental toughness even for that position.

What Cole Aldrich found inside himself after he was first beaten silly by MSU, and then mugged to within an inch of his life by Nebraska, is not to be found inside very many guys between 6'8" and 7'1" tall. There's only a very few big guys who can really both dish it out and take it, while still executing skillfully. There are only a very few big guys who can not be bullied out of their games by the toughest players of their time. There are only a few who can be the anchor, the outsized personality, who, when everything is going on, picks up the shake and bakes on a big man's broad shoulders and says, "Follow me, boys. The war is about to start and there will be no freaking prisoners."

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago

Cole Aldrich wasn't born into being a big. He was a class clown type of big gangly kid. There was doubt the whole season long whether when they really began to hurt him, when they really began to try to take him out, when the other team decided that he had to go down hard, whether or not Cole would really want to pay the price and take the abuse that came with being the dominant postman, the Shaq Father, the Big Dipper, the Big Russ type. It got so bad for Jabbar that he had to wear goggles for the rest of his career just to keep from having his corneas scratched off his eyeballs. Cole came to a turning point after his nose was broken, after the Nebraska game when they had scratched him, and banged him, and kicked him, and busted his nose and generally assaulted him. And the turning point went on for a couple games. I saw a big class clown, who had learned to talk a good game playing behind Kaun, Jackson and Arthur, begin to try to decide was this violent life the one he really wanted? Was he even capable of enduring what they were going to do to him? Could he learn how to dish it back out before he was so decimated it would be too late? In short, was he going to be a post man, or was he going to be just another good, tough 4? This was a mythic transformation he went through, a transformation of the hero. He made the transition alright, but he was a sophmore carrying 245 pounds on only 6'11."

Maybe Withey is made of the same stuff as Cole. Maybe Withey can eat his Wheaties and protein packs and pump iron until he is cut and buff 250-260. But can he turn his insides into tempered steel and alpha male dominance? I'm not as optimistic as you are about this, but certainly we can hope. I just wish Self had landed Orton, so Withey could concentrate on being the best 4 he seems to me to be naturally.

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago

Again, it is not the size of the dog with men in the post so much as the size of the bite in the dog. Darnell Jackson had a very dominant personality once he finally came out of his shell late in his junior year. It took him awhile to find a fitting game for the team his senior year, but once he did he was no one to mess with. But even Darnell was not the true carry me on your back big man. No one ever spent several games trying to hurt him the way they did Cole this year. Cole just is the dominant center package and the opponents decided to test and see if his mind could live up to his package. With intermittent exceptions, he generally did. But I think the truly dominant big man in Cole has still not surfaced. I think this is the player we are about to see emerge this coming season. He's been to war. He knows what it feels like to take a beating. He knows it is a lot better to beat than be beaten now. The weights are not going to be flying this summer, because the coach is telling him to do it. They are going to be flying because he wants to deliver the blows next season instead of being the punching bag.

Maybe Withey will live out such an odyssey, too, but to me he just seems a natural 4, where as Cole arrived looking like potential 5.

TaTownHawkFanBase 12 years, 7 months ago

jaybate...why are you so worried about the 2010-2011 jayhawks needs at the 5? I mean, should we not just be thrilled to have a squad that has the ability to cut down the nets next april? I do understand how we'll definitely need a big man presence once cole leaves, but i'm just glad we've laid the groundwork for a championship caliber team this year. Having a better than average shot to be able to go for 2 championships in 3 years is pretty impressive.

John Randall 12 years, 7 months ago

What is kiethmiles05 so jealous about? CJ isn't quoted here, and those who were said nothing about replacing anyone, just that he would play. If he was good enough for an offer four years ago, you can bet he still is -- probably stronger, smarter, better all around. With these two, just think about having Chalmers and Rush back (as freshmen).

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago


Yours is an excellent question.

We should be verrrrrrry excited about next and about Coach Self having rounded up the talent to make us a heavily favored contender once again. Success breeds success. How fortunate we KU fans are!

But I am handwringing for these reasons.

First, winning rings involves a lot luck, unless you are John Wooden, and so no single player can guaranty a ring. Tournament history is littered with great teams with overwhelming talent that had off shooting nights, or ran into an opponent that showed them a wrinkle they weren't prepared for, or presented a freakish mismatch they could not handle, or saw one of their anchors get sick or injured in March. As a result, I am inclined not to view any one recruit as the missing piece that can deliver the ring, but rather merely as the recruit that can make us a strong contender. So: terrific as Xavier may prove to be, he can only make us a stronger contender, not a certain ring meister. If Wilt Chamberlain couldn't guarranty a ring, no player can. And so I tend to look toward consistently high performance (consistently getting into the madness and consistently getting in a few rounds) as a path to being in position for when when the pieces fall in place (as they may just have with Xavier) and lady luck kisses our teams. In turn, landing bigs who will be around for 2-3 years, especially at the 5, seems an imperative to me to position ourselves for occassionally landing a player of Xavier's excellence and appropriateness of fit with KU's positional needs.

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago

Second, Xavier, especially if he proves to be as magnificient as his rep leads one to expect, will only be here one season. Cole will only be here one more season. Sherron will only be here one more season. This means that we go into the following year without any anchor players with experience. At least this year we had Sherron. And we had a bonafide 5 in Cole, with a year of practice experience banging with Kaun, Jackson, and Arthur. But even so, Cole essentially went through a baptism of fire that was incredibly brutal (not to mention the poundings the Twins also endured). I used to look forward to seeing the occassional freshman go through the baptism of fire that pays so many dividends in years 2 through 4. But the game has changed. It is just too violent to expect 99% of freshman big men to benefit much from being thrown to the dogs as freshman. They just get eaten now adays. Most bigs really need a season of transition--a season they can be played in just the right situations for them to learn. I just hated watching Cole and Marcus getting the crap knocked out of them by thug ballers. Cole was at least old enough and developed enough to fight through it pretty successfully. But Marcus was just out of his depth so much of the time that it may actually have stunted his development, but Self had no other option. I hate to see us enter the season following Coles departure without any seasoned anchors especially in the paint at the 5. Perhaps Tyshawn, Brady, Tyrell, CJ and Elijah will be capable of being the backcourt anchors with experience the season after next in the back court. But who will be an anchor post man? If Withey and/or Kieff can become the dominant 5 capable of 15 and 10 against the best bigs they face by the season after next, then I can take my hands off wring cycle and put them on high five cycle. But again, I just don't see these two as true 5s in personality, or in skill sets. Perhaps I am wrong. But Self's apparent interest in Orton, after having intially shunting him to Gillispie, when there appeared a window of opportunity after Gillispie's firing, and especially when Self has had a semester to observe Withey up close, tells me Self still thinks he lacks a dominant 5 for the year after Cole leaves. Self made extraordinarily clear in the media that Cole was gone after next season. I suspect he made that statement to help attract a 5 this year, if possible. I suspect he wanted Orton, or, at the very least, to send an unmistakeable message to any big out their willing to transfer, or to de-commit, that KU is a place that will certainly have an apprentice slot next season turning into an anchor slot season after next.

BigGuyDon 12 years, 7 months ago

Jaybate- you worry too much. Me, I put my fail in the training staff and Danny Manning to make sure that Withey in 2010-11 is NOT 225 lbs, weak or finesse. Frankly, when I look at the improvement we saw from Aldrich in less time than that, I'm even less worried. People seem to forget how little Aldrich contributed in 2007-8 because of one game. Most times he looked completely overmatched. By the time Withey practices against Cole for nearly two full years, in front of Manning and Self for 2 years and has Miss Hudey beffing him up, he'll be just fine. And the fact that he's more explosive (from what I've seen in the videos) and quicker than Cole will really be a benefit.

As for other bigs in 2010, both Morrises and Robinson give us essentially 3 D-jack, Shady types to work with. The Morrises will be juniors and will have had a lot of experience by that time. Robinson will be making his FR-SO jump. That's a solid 4 man big rotation that usually only uses three guys.

And what's the preoccupation with having a "true center". Kaun was probably one, but he was so important he got moved to the bench for Jackson. Very few college teams have those guys anymore and most go with undersized front lines where having a big guy like that becomes a defensive disadvantage. I think Self would rather have three clones of Darrell Arthur than a lumbering big guy.

I'd shy away from Lance though, just due to the logjam we already have. PT for CJ, EJ and Tyrel is more important to the long term health of the program than adding Lance (for one year) to a team that probably doesn't need him to be the best in the country.

Brett Glover 12 years, 7 months ago

Why do people do HCBS, that's kind of retarted... Just say Self..

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago


Your points are all clear and reasonable.

Now explain to me why Bill Self was apparently interested in Daniel Orton, after Orton announced he was reconsidering where he would play on the heals of Cal being hired to replace Gillispie?

Joe Baker 12 years, 7 months ago

jaybate- I understand your point about a true big man. You forget Florida with Joakim Noah (7') and Al Horeford (6-8). They were just fine and Joakim was not a true 5 man in my book. They survived as a team with back to back NC. They hit on all cylinders. Noah did not have what it takes to carry a team, he was too lanky in your definition of a 5 man. Horeford was much like Arthur or Jackson. He carried them more than Joakim Noah. I think we overrate these 7 footers, i.e Thabeet!! I don't think you'll find the prototypical 5 man that you want. They don't exist right away, not even Griffin was built ly the same as ty!!
I remember seeing Cole in the McDonalds All-American game and then saw him at Lawrence the next Fall. He was tall and lanky in that game. He bulked and put on some weight. I think he will be a beast during his last season. This will only give Withey more time to "beef" up and bang with the biggest of guys. Self will have plenty of time to find a 5 man by the time Withey graduates. BTW: I think we'll be much better than Florida ever was during their back to back!!

TexasHawk44 12 years, 7 months ago

truehawk93: Jaybate will not get off the Orton kick...ever. You make good points. There are not a lot of true centers at 17 or 18. They are few and far between. And it would help to remember that Self passed on Orton after we signed Robinson. But as always, certain people with the keyboard runs know more than Coach Self or anyone else on here... BTW, Orton is playing for UK not KU...maybe that is the confusion...LOL

Brett Glover 12 years, 7 months ago

Thank you three for not say "HCBS" I don't know why but it annoys me for some reason

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago


You know the drill by now, my little rim fire.

"My name is TexasHawk44 and I am a Smearaholic. I am sitting in my barely furnished metroplex studio apartment half-dressed in front of my PC monitor. I used to binge ad hom, but my mentor, jaybate, sensitized me to the need to stop doing that, because it made me look like a john gluteous. So, now I am substituting that bad habit that my mentor has worked with me so hard on, with a new one. It is the way of addictive personalities. I am dis-informing people about jaybate's tendencies and coupling this disinformation with vulgar metaphors like "keyboard runs." It is a pitiful rhetorical technique, but then I have fallen off the wagon again. The truth is I am a person struggling with shame and self-loathing and displacing on my mentor. It is less threatening to my fragile personality to displace obsessively on him than it is to look at myself in the mirror in my studio with the Rick Barnes/Heath Ledger composite behind me. I can see it from every where in my studio, you know? But my mentor, jaybate, has not forsaken me. He has told me once again to get dressed, drink my coffee, light a cigarette, and get out the twelve steps. He has told me that he will walk me through this phase of my reform--of giving up disinformation and rude, bodily function metaphors, and he will catch me whenever I fall off the wagon. He is so good to me. His tough love is so caring. I can do it, and you know what? Gosh darn it, people like me, just as he says they do."

Recite and have a great day. We're making progress every time now. By inches, not by yards. There will be occasional back slides, but I am increasingly optimistic for you. :-)

Rock chalk!

emillasap 12 years, 7 months ago

I don't recall a credible source saying Self was reopening the door for Orton. Only speculation by Whitshock along with Orton still wishing he had pulled the trigger first. As previously stated, the 08 team proves the only thing you need is 3 big men who can score, rebound, and run the floor. Add a suitable reserve like Kaun and you are in bizz. IMHO the most important position to be dominant in college ball is the tall athletic shooting guard/small forward, ie Rush/X/Barnes(hopefully). However, I do think when a guy like Cole comes along you ride that horse as far as he'll take you. The 09 team is like 08 2.0 and Self knows it.

Sidenote: I watched all the highlights of X I could find and WOW. This guy can shoot the ball. Jumpshot elevation. Check. High lighting quick release. Check. Range. Check. If Self can motivate him to be 3/4 the defender Rush was than KU is solid gold b/c he is twice the offensive player.

emillasap 12 years, 7 months ago

PS Forgot to mention X' footwork. He gets set and pops in a hurry.

jaybate 12 years, 7 months ago


You make an logical case by starting from the interesting assumption that the giga 5's are not totally essential to a successful team. Our own '08 team contributes to your case. Neither Jackson, nor Kaun, were giga 5s. Jackson was power 4 playing the 5, while Kaun was a true 5, just not a broadly talented one. I essentially agree with you. There are other ways to win than with a giga 5. Dominant power forwards and journeyman 5s, if forceful personalities and if well seasoned can be part of the mix that carries a team to a ring.

But I think it is also fair to say that it is better to have a giga 5, than not to. And that teams with giga 5s have won rings over the years (Jabbar and Walton won six between them, Manning won one, and so on).

But whether or not it came clear, what my posting was intended to say was that there are 5s and there are 4s; that both are needed (whether or not they are giga 5s or just role players like Kaun); and that the 5s especially need to be experienced, if a team is to win a ring in the Madness.

I still do not agree that Withey, or Kieff, are the kind of power 4s that could successfully play the 5 in the way that Jackson did. Maybe they will develop in the ways many hope, but I do not see it in what I have been able to observe so far. Nor do I agree that Withey really is a 5 just because he was listed as one his senior year by, or just because he is 7' tall. But time and Self will tell.

UncleMiltyN 12 years, 7 months ago

You need to look past the labels gentleman. I think you've already answered your own questions. You can do it with a variety of lineups, but you need a few things.... Post defense (knock a guy on his rear ability preferred) Off/Def rebounding Shot blocking Consistent scoring Guys who create matchup problems (size, outside shooting, etc.)

The benefit of having a guy like Cole, a "true 5", is that he gives you the whole package. That's why they only come around every now and then. A "dominant 4" along with one or two other bigs can certainly do the job. Florida was a great example.

Many teams have used two or three players to get the job done. We should certainly have confidence that the current coaches can get it done. I think Morris1, Morris2, Withey, Robinson, and a player to be named later will be an incredibly serviceable front line when (and if) Cole leaves early.

;)We just need Robinson to be a "true 4" with an enforcer's attitude if we're going to win back to back in 09-10 and 10-11.....

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