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Saturday, May 24, 2008

KU recruiting class ranked No. 2 in land

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Feature

Self-made Champions

The Lawrence Journal-World looks back at the men's basketball season of 2007-2008, in which the Jayhawks claimed the NCAA championship title for the first time in 20 years and its third ever.

Kansas University's seven-man basketball recruiting class of 2008 has been ranked No. 2 in the country by Rivals.com.

Rivals on Friday tapped UCLA's class No. 1 following the Bruins' end-of-the-week commitment from Dallas South Oak Cliff High center J'Mison Morgan.

KU's class of Marcus and Markieff Morris, Travis Releford, Tyshawn Taylor, Quintrell Thomas, Mario Little and Tyrone Appleton was followed, in order, by Wake Forest, Louisville, Memphis, Ohio State, UConn, Florida State, Florida, Tennessee, North Carolina, Georgetown, Alabama, Arizona, Vanderbilt, Arkansas, Oregon, West Virginia, Washington, USC, Kentucky, Michigan State, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Xavier, Nevada, Duke, Georgia, Washington State and Cincinnati.

Rivals tapped KU's class the best in the Big 12, followed by Oklahoma, Texas A&M;, Missouri, Iowa State, Colorado, Baylor, Texas Tech, Texas, Oklahoma State, Nebraska and Kansas State.

"Kansas might not have a marquee five-star recruit, but the Jayhawks are reloading after a national championship run with an impressively deep class and intriguingly diverse class," Rivals.com analyst Jerry Meyer said.

Marcus Morris is ranked No. 29 overall and brother Markieff 50, followed by Releford (70), Taylor (77) and Thomas (150). Little is the No. 1-rated juco player and Appleton No. 3.

UCLA's class consists of No. 2-rated Jrue Holiday, followed by Morgan (25), Jerime Anderson (37), Drew Gordon (46) and Malcolm Lee (48).

ESPN.com, by the way, rated KU's class fifth nationally behind UCLA, Florida, Ohio State and West Virginia. KU signee Thomas is ranked 62nd, followed by Releford (66) and Taylor (110). Juco and prep school players were not included in the ESPN rankings.

¢ Bobo finally commits: "Bobo" Morgan said Friday he chose UCLA over KU and Memphis. He signed with LSU last November but recently asked out of his letter-of-intent in the wake of coach John Brady's firing and Trent Johnson's hiring.

"I wanted to make my own decision. I wanted to go somewhere that I can make a name for myself and not have to follow in (Darrell) Arthur's footsteps," Morgan told texashoops.com. He was referring to former South Oak Cliff High teammate Darrell Arthur of KU.

Comments

FlaHawk 11 years, 6 months ago

Based on the recruiting rave, the Big XII will be weaker than ever next year. I hope KU schedules some competition as this recruiting class does not need to fliest on Big XII left overs all year elong!Go Hawks!

klineisanazi 11 years, 6 months ago

This thread is disgusting. KU wins the national championship, in the process whipping Williams and Carolina, and "fans" are still replaying this same old argument? Move on, or get counseling. This is sick.

Paul Meyer 11 years, 6 months ago

If Chalmers opts out of the Draft, do we have too many recruits?

stravinsky 11 years, 6 months ago

If I was him I would have picked UCLA. If i remember right, people doubted whether he Bobo could run the floor like KU likes to. Plus there'll be less competition as he fills in the vacancy created by Love's departure, rather than KU where we have Aldrich, Thomas, and the Morris brothers. So, more minutes freshman year. It fits him better, nothing wrong with that. We're stocked, and next year's recruiting class could be even better for us...

rcaltrider 11 years, 6 months ago

"I wanted to make my own decision. I wanted to go somewhere that I can make a name for myself and not have to follow in (Darrell) Arthur's footsteps," Morgan told texashoops.com. Translation: "I don't think I'm good enough to be compared favorably with Arthur. I also don't think I would start ahead of Aldrich and either of the Morris twins. And my mom told me to go to UCLA."

Dr. Robert s. Mosser 11 years, 6 months ago

Time to drop it. Roy Williams and Bill Self are both class acts. Roy didn't miss 18 free throws out of 30 in the 2003 final. We should be glad that Dean Smith recommended Roy. Roy was good for Kansas and Kansas was good for Roy. Returning home is always a pull. We should all be proud of the UNC/KU/ connections in BB. Self seems to be a better recruiter but also note that those recruits bought into his TEAM concept and that is likely what made the 2008 run work so well.

truefan 11 years, 6 months ago

He chose UCLA because we had already moved on and found another post player...true and simple.

agraves 11 years, 6 months ago

well said rcaltrider...this guy is a joke...prolly a premature one and done that knew KU doesn't play well for one and done type players...see you in Europe 'Bobo'...

Joe Ross 11 years, 6 months ago

As for Coach Williams placing the blame on himself, you and I both know because we've had him on our court for 15 years that he goes into "self-deprication mode" (no pun intended) when his teams are soundly whipped/beaten/hanged and quartered. He does this even when his players' shots are not falling--as if he's responsible for that. If you have learned anything about Roy Williams from his time here, it is that you have to take those kinds of post-game comments with a grain of salt! It's almost as if he's thinking, "I don't want my kids thinking this is THEIR fault" even when he knows it is. We know it. We've seen it. In response to your contention of Self yanking players for stupid plays, how can you forget Williams' wholesale 5-for-5 substitions, where he yanked even players who didn't appear to be involved in the stupidity. You almost thought viewing all those subs that he thought it was contagious. Red-faced HCBS? Yes! I've seen RW hot under-the-collar more than I care to recall, however. You can bring the RW scowl to mind with no difficulty sitting right where you are.Point-by-point we'll never get to the bottom of a debate in which we could both match each other tit for tat until Jesus comes. It remains a respectful disagreement. PS-SELF IS AN OUTSTANDING X's/O's COACH, and I would not for love or money bring Roy back in favor over Self. Period.PPS- Style points for this though:"This aint just BillyBall or SuttonBall--it is its own hybrid DeanSmith/EddieSutton+defense+atheletes galore=something very special, courtesy Mr. Self."

klineisanazi 11 years, 6 months ago

Given the chaos at South Oak Cliff High, maybe it isn't a bad thing "Bobo" went to UCLA. I hope UCLA had a forensics expert review his transcript.

Joe Ross 11 years, 6 months ago

The thrust of this article is about the great recruits coming in. To this, I have two points. First of all, Bill Self is a recruiting machine. PLEASE GOD dont throw stones at me for saying I think Roy is a better X's and O's coach, because with the same mouth I'd say Self is a much better recruiter (and is not far off of Roy as a coach on the floor). Consider this: Bill Self did at Kansas in five years what Roy did not do in 15. So YOU decide, which is more important?"Maybe recruiting has something to do with it after all."Larry Brown was an excellent coach, but then again he had Danny Manning, didn't he? You GOTTA get the kids here!My second point, after all of that preamble, is that Self will REALLY show me something if he is able to land Xavier Henry. We need that kid. He belongs here. I'd take his brother too, incidentally. Basketball genes run in that family. This Xavier kid is really going to help us out if we get him.

killabees 11 years, 6 months ago

No, we'll be right at the limit. (Five seniors gone + Rush + Arthur = 7 scholarships available)

ralsterKUMed95 11 years, 6 months ago

Im not going to really judge an 18yr old highschooler's comments, but I wish Morgan would revisit his sentiment about "not wanting to follow Arthur". What? Arthur is leaving. Gone. Translate: open opportunity to shine...Or maybe there was a frank discussion with Bill Self about what the defensive and footwork and classroom expectations are at KU. It is also clear that KU plays team ball and rotates guys in/out to wear down opponents, which all translates to 25min per game maybe instead of 35--which some gimme-da-ball types may not find a suitable philosophy? Note to Self: Keep picking/choosing/(& weeding out) Div1 prospects to find the best fit for KU's style of ball. Im a believer, Coach...

jayhawkinATL 11 years, 6 months ago

Second that, rcaltrider. Too funny, kline.Howland is definitely a great recruiter, but perhaps a guy who just won't be able to get UCLA "over the hump." Whoa, that sounded like Self up until April.

fljayhawk 11 years, 6 months ago

Wasn't there a tv clown named 'Bobo' years ago?

Ben Kane 11 years, 6 months ago

some of ya are sure a bunch of haters. It's simple, he wouldn't be the one star at KU so he didn't come here.

Kit Duncan 11 years, 6 months ago

If KU had played NC in a 5 game tournament it would have gone 5 games and probably been decided in the end by the team that shot better from the line. To me that's the biggest difference between Coach Self and Coach Williams and that is this year's team made free throws in the clutch when Roy's arguably best team (Collison & Hinrich) didn't. I know, Vaughn LaFrenz and Pollard were the better team, but they lost to UA in the regional. Advantage Self.

William Cormode 11 years, 6 months ago

Who cares about that pansy? I am just happy that K-Suck has the worst recruiting class in the BigXII. Back to the good old days.

nameer 11 years, 6 months ago

Its pretty obvious...the one thing UCLA has been missing the last few final four runs has been an athletic post presence. Last year they had Love, who was a great scorer, rebounder, and passer, but he wasn't an athletic force and could be made to disappear simply by speeding the game up, as memphis did. Also, they had one prototypical athletic guard in russell westbrook (collison, although a speedy little beast, is too small for some matchups), and that also hindered them against more athletic backcourts. I think Morgan saw that this recruiting class fixed all those problems, as long as he joined in as well.That isn't to say I'm not salivating for a NCAA matchup with UCLA when our stronger juco guards and more experience players (sherron, aldrich) can show them what athletic defense is all about.

Jeff Fugitt 11 years, 6 months ago

I don't blame BoBo - he probably had a UCLA Cheerleader as a tour guide around campus :-)

nameer 11 years, 6 months ago

how can you say Roy Williams is a better X's and O's coach, when he unable to devise any schemes to stop KU's beatdown of his team? He himself admitted that Self had his kids better prepared. I can see that he is better at running a scripted, pro offense, but in late game situations Roy would continually fall apart.Also, Self has got to be one of the best coaches in the business at knowing when to call timeouts, which was a skill Roy NEVER learned.I understand your point, and I agree that he probably is better at scripting plays...but not at knowing when to use them or feeling when the game is getting out of hand.

Joe Ross 11 years, 6 months ago

There's more to consider than just coaching. There is also the repetoire of players you have on the bench. I simply think KU has better players and that was a big factor in the win. Also I think Kansas was acclimated to the large-arena environment whereas UNC had been spoon-fed home-cooking and had difficulty adjusting. Coaching is HUGE in NCAA basketball (think of the NBA and compare in your mind and this will be obvious). But coaching isn't everything. Hansbrough is an extremely hard worker, but other than that he was no match against the more talented KU frontcourt. For Ty Lawson and Dwayne Ellington, KU simply overmatched them with Chalmers, Collins, Robinson and Rush. More to the point, I think it's hard to prove something in the way of a comparison of coaches from one game only. Why? Because the effect of coaching and how that translates to action on the floor isn't obvious at all, even to knowledgable pundits and commentators. There are other variables in translating a coach's game plan to the floor--like what's going on in the PLAYERS' heads!!! What is easier is to judge the talent level of the players because you can SEE that on the court. To your point about Self being one of the best coaching in basketball, you'll get no argument from me. I've sung his praises for a long while. I do think Roy is a better floor coach. Not much, mind you, but better. To my earlier point, however, you can be a better coach with worse players and still lose. That's where recruiting comes in. Self is better MORE CONSISTENTLY in recruiting than Roy Williams was at Kansas (RW now is taking advantage of the pull of UNC to recruit and still I haven't seen him pull a single player like those he got while he was at Kansas). Who has suited up in a UNC uniform under Roy's tenure that matches Paul Pierce, Drew Gooden, Raef LaFrentz, Jacques Vaughn, Kirk Hinrich, and Nick Collison? No one in my estimation. Now stretch those players out over 15 years and I think who Self has put on the floor in 5 years compares very favorably. And not only this, but I expect there to be more where that came from (I reference the heading of this piece for evidence).I will not use coaching records in support of my claim. Roy coached at Kansas and UNC, while Self has cut his teeth at places like Tulsa, ORU, and Illinois. Not quite the same programs, and therefore it would be wrong of me to avail myself of that information.To be honest, I thought long and hard before pulling the trigger on that comparison for fear of this. KU has found its peace with Roy Williams, and I say let sleeping dogs continue to lie. Chalk it up to a respectful disagreement and no more.

tomike 11 years, 6 months ago

I am afraid that KU was not very interested in him after had landed seven players already, although KU was interested at the beginning. We have to think about the better class in 2009.

Kevin Millikan 11 years, 6 months ago

I think those are pretty good footprints myself...

LAJayhawk 11 years, 6 months ago

Well, I'm glad to see the fan base isn't bitter, cynical and irrationally speculative today....The guy chose UCLA. It was a better fit, and he probably had several personal reasons that made it more comfortable for him. All of you don't need to feel so rejected. We just won the National Championship and have the 2nd highest rated recruiting class in the country. I'm guessing none of you know "Bobo" personally, so you have no idea whether his mother actually influenced his decision or not. And I understand him sensing that he would constantly be compared to Arther while competing at KU instead of being judged on his own merit, especially in light of the recent supposed grade changing controversy. I also think it's fair to assume that not following Arthur wasn't his sole reason for choosing UCLA. And I certainly don't look at UCLA as being a "gimme-da-ball" type school that a player goes to in order to be the lone star on a otherwise disastrous program as one poster seemed to suggest. He is still probably looking at 25 to 30 minutes a game.I don't mean to call people out, but a lot of these posts seem a little childish to me today. If you don't like the guy, I understand, but don't wildly speculate so negatively when you have no idea of the teenager's intentions. It simply smacks of bitterness. Remember, he is just a kid. Of course, just my humble opinion.

kc_wildfire 11 years, 6 months ago

Well said chuckberryKU isn't the best fit and right choice for every player that comes out of high school but that does not make them bad players or people. Unless of course you are an unobjective, close-minded Jayhawk fan who thinks the college basketball world revolves entirely around KU. Then you are tagged as a joke, loser, bum, unmotivated, misguided, immature, and a laundry list of other disparaging names once you decide that KU is not the place for you.Instead we should wish the kid well and show how classy a fan base KU has.

ralsterKUMed95 11 years, 6 months ago

More proof you have all seen: How often we see a player get immediately yanked by Self following a 'bonehead' decision--even a much-loved, intelligent player like RussRob: Is that coaching on the floor/in a game? How often, especially a year or two ago, even this season, and even in the Final4, have we seen a VERY fiery, red-faced Bill Self, uh, coaching his players in the huddle? What a piece of coaching strategy to feed psycho-Ts defensive assignment--make him play D--couldnt do it and got exposed majorly. I think he has shown great trust in letting his stellar backcourt 'run' the KU offense, he coached them to perform the halfcourt sets pretty effectively, into a zone-busting display of artistic passing/ball reversal--but he is keenly aware of when to call key timeouts and key set-plays--like Arthur's d.u.n.k. off an inbound pass--almost broke player's back! Yes, UNC style will allow for the ball to be given to one of the goto guys and he can try to make a play or at the last second pass it off--but in KU's system, it is EXPECTED of whomever is on the court (starter or off the bench) to make the correct pass at the right moment. This may not be Duke, but I think it is plainly evident that we have just as heady a style of basketball as Coach K has--we just have more and better atheletes to do it with than the Dookies. All of those TV announcers/ACC-lovers will be forced to realize that Self does it all, and has done so everywhere he has gone--he just got better talent at KU with which to do it with, and only wound up validating on a grand stage everything we have been watching the last 3 years in the making. This aint just BillyBall or SuttonBall--it is its own hybrid DeanSmith/EddieSutton+defense+atheletes galore=something very special, courtesy Mr. Self. Bill Self needed the KU mystique to push his recruiting into the stratosphere, and KU already has benefitted (in 5 years) from what Bill Self has brought. I shall say it again: KU plays a complete style of basketball, with him emotionally coaching every minute from the sideline. Someone please explain how Roy could be a better coach? So someone may be a good recruiter, but look at the totality in what he (Self) expects, and the results he got out of that supposed A-level talent. Ask every opposing coach who had to face KU this year (KU's loss in Bramlage, maybe the lone exception) about what kind of Xs/Os coach Bill Self is. And for that matter, Roy dogged himself by realizing his players were 'not prepared'. Isnt that coaching 101? Ask Bobby Knight, who has been a startlingly astute TVanalyst (not ACC-biased), who as a coach, never had the talented players like Self. He has said very nice things about Self.

Chris Weaver 11 years, 6 months ago

i like the diversity of this draft. self set us up with some juco players so we can stay active in the draft in two years, he's loaded up on guards (which he runs everything through) and given us some bigs to play the high low with. it's as if he knows exactly what he wants and gets them instead of drooling over players everyone else wants and needs. should be a fun couple of years reloading.

ralsterKUMed95 11 years, 6 months ago

I will respectfully disagree with calling Roy a better Xs/Os coach than Self. Where ya been, my friend during the KU vs. UNC game??? Right there in a microcosm is all those years of Roy falling short while at KU...Kids 'not prepared', not playing defense, not playing defense, not playing defense, poor half-court offense, poor half-court offense, poor half-court offense, and as it unravels, he does NOT call a timeout. And, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN Self's team come out of the locker room and run a 'blackboard' play?? That comes from the coach. I am not being disrespectful of Roy, but see the proof plainly evident of how complete of a style of basketball KU now plays. Credit Self for adding a half-court offense to the already potent transition-offense that we+UNC run. Credit Self for the superb overall defense played by this team, not only individually, but also the team defense--what a concept!!!!!!!! I said this on another thread: Self just taught the UNC-crowd (and Roy Williams, I am afraid) what complete basketball is. How on this green (and royal+crimson) earth can anyone say with a straight face that Roy is a 'better' coach than Self. Confining Self to the 'excellent recruiter only' mold is OLD news. You can bring 4 or 5 McDAAs to your campus, but getting them to check their egos at the door for the good of the team is one of the finest pieces of basketball coaching I have ever seen. Sure it has been done at other big programs, but I then add the style of ball currently being taught by this KU coach, and I believe we have something really, REALLY special. What will be interesting to see, like Bill Walsh's 49er offense in football, or that scheme Shanahan runs in Denver: is Self's philosophy a plug&play system? I (we) sure hope so. I saw what happened in the Final Four to be a defining moment for Bill Self: HIS SYSTEM beat the Tar out of the Heels TWICE in the same game, and his ATHELETES beat the heart out of Memphis. There you have it all--2(two) other #1 seeds, worthy opponents, yet same results, done different ways. Who's still talking about Roy??? Why? I wish him well in NC, and I guarantee he learned something on April 5...

Lance Hobson 11 years, 6 months ago

Newflash, UCLA is one of our biggest arch rivals. The beat us in the tourney in '90 that should have been a Final 4 for Pritchard and company, and they beat us in '07. Anytime we lose to UCLA it sucks. However, seven players is enough already. I'm not sure if we are really #2 or just gettng props because the odds are that somebody is good when you bring in so many. Either way, next year is going to be very intersting and fun.

rcaltrider 11 years, 6 months ago

chuckberry and kc_wildfire--No, I don't think that the basketball world revolves around KU or that every kid should choose KU and if they don't they are a loser. I wasn't commenting on the fact that he chose UCLA over Kansas, he has the right to choose whichever school he wants and if he liked UCLA better then good for him. What I don't like, and what makes me glad he decided to go to UCLA, is when he says that he did not want to "have to follow in (Darrell) Arthur's footsteps." To me that shows a lack of competitiveness, self-confidence, and desire to be the best. Because if he was all of those things then he wouldn't care whose footsteps he followed in because he would be confident enough that he could create his own mark. My guess is that he doesn't want to have to compete for the PT and even if he is as good as advertised he would have to rotate minutes and get only 25 minutes as opposed to 35 minutes per game. And that is fine if that is what he wants to do, more power to him. I would just rather have someone who fits in with the "team".So save all of your "hater" and "close-minded" comments because they are old and tired and inaccurate.

100 11 years, 6 months ago

Self and Roy both do great things, in terms of coaching and recruiting. It's great to analyze, but in the end, both of them spent some (and hopefully a lot for the guy whose with us now) quality time at KU... Rock Chalk.

nameer 11 years, 6 months ago

jross, I'm liking the comment you made just because of the discussion it has sparked, which I'm sure you knew it would.I'll give you that Roy is a better X's and O's coach (as there is no real way to prove otherwise and this seems to be the consensus among people who aren't KU fans), but I'd still hold that in late game situations under pressure, his demeanor would fall apart, making all his X's and O's moot. I realize thats not what you argued, and I think what you're saying (which I wholeheartedley agree with) is that X's and O's are overrated, and its much better to have players that can execute on their own rather than those that require the coach's constant input and adjustments.

madamhawk 11 years, 6 months ago

I know I'm a little late reading and posting but....fljayhawk, I think you may be referring to Bozo the Clown! Man I used to watch that show religiously!!! I always wanted to toss the balls in those buckets.

Joe Ross 11 years, 6 months ago

ralster...I do appreciate your vigor. respect, even through disagreement, is evident in your tone though you (like I) stand our ground firmly.Regarding your contention that "Confining Self to the 'excellent recruiter only' mold is OLD news," let me say once again that Bill Self is an excellent coach--X's and O's wise. I refer you to the comments I made some moments ago with respect to my viewpoint that Coach Williams is only marginally better in that regard. Secondly, I reemphasize my stance that from one game you can't compare coaches. I say, very respectfully, that logic is flawed unless one coach makes very obvious blunders or the other makes a string of heady decisions that are apparent to the audience. More often than not--MUCH more often than that--it is not the case. I concede readily that I can only recall Coach Self being outcoached once (Texas A/M vs. Kansas in Allen Field House, upper hand going to Billy Gillespie and Acie Law IV). I respect how Coach Self runs his hi-low game with great effect. Coach Williams too has his selling points. Perfecting the secondary break, for just one example.I DO say it with a straight face and unapologetically so that I believe Coach Williams to be a slightly better coach on the floor, but if you were to assume that I have any venom on behalf of Coach Self or hold him in low regard outside of his recruiting prowess youd be mistaken. Without question Coach Self is a heady coach. He's a great motivator. He's and outstanding manager of the game. He's the right fit for the job at Kansas and we should keep him here until he dies or retires!

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

The incoming class...Releford and the Twins have the level of talent that Self has brought in before. Otherwise, its a lot of betting on the come and you have to wait and see if it develops four years from now--not next year. Getting jazzed about a kid who bails on Marquette (Taylor) seems rank overoptimism.Getting jazzed about the 1 and 3 rated juco ballers again seems rank overoptimism. We needed the juco ballers, because we couldn't get the blue chips to come.Outside Releford and the Twins, what I see is a group that could be another nucleus of guards and a big forward (Thomas) for developing into something special 3-4 years from now, though the juco ballers will be gone in two.And Releford and the Twins will not be seasoned until year two.Self's rebuilding year will be helped by all the kids on other teams jumping to the show. KU could win another ring even without any experience if Augustin and Walker take a powder.Regarding Self vs. Williams on recruiting...Tough to compare. Roy in his youthful, vigorous prime brought in a ton of players from only half the country in no small part with the aura of Michael Jordan at his back. Being able to tell recruits he recruited and coached Jordan and being able to get Jordan to talk to recruits made Roy a huge force when Jordan was the player every kid wanted to be. But Jordan's no longer fresh in kids' minds and Roy is no longer as young and dynamic as he was at KU.

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

LAJayhawk,"You really do get worked up, don't you?"First rule: care but not to much."...habitually argue with me."Second rule: those who feel persecuted in casual conversation are narcissists with all the baggage that entails."Too busy trying to argue with me."Third rule: Persons with no argument often accuse others of arguing with them in order to save face, rather than grapple with their reasoning."Enjoy your day..."You too.Always remember Herb Cohen, LAJay. Ya gotta care, but not too much.Pretending not to care, while betraying a persecution complex, is not the same as caring, but not too much.Keep at it. You'll get the hang of it.Rock chalk and let me know when you find an issue that you feel more comfortable discussing.

LAJayhawk 11 years, 6 months ago

"Bill and Roy are the two best coaches in college basketball today." --jaybateWhile this is a subjective point, I would point out that according to rivals.com, that is inaccurate. Bill Self is rank 1, but Roy is ranked 4th behind Ben Howland and John Calipari, respectively. Although, ranking coaches does seem like a bit of a futile exercise to me.http://www.collegebasketball.rivals.com/viewcbse.aspAnd jaybate, you will undoubtedly continue to post as you choose, but I personally think (just my opinion) that you could easy cut back in your insanely long posts. A lot of it is repetitive and redundant. Brevity, as they say, is the soul of wit. Again, just an opinion.As to the Roy and Bill discussion, I think the ultimate point is it is a rather tired debate. Obviously you can continue to discuss it if you choose, and those irritated by it can skip the post.

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

You folks who do not like to compare Bill and Roy sound like guys who are afraid to talk about the birds and the bees with your kids--very inhibited.There IS NO MORE animosity about Roy and so there absolutely IS NO reason NOT to talk about Roy, and compare him with Bill.Not talking about and comparing Roy and Bill is like having two 900 pound gorillas in your living room, one crimson and blue and the other Carolina Blue, and talking about your wife's cooking.Bill and Roy are the two best coaches in college basketball today. It would be goofy NOT to talk about and compare them.Can no one talk about Bill Parcells in all the town's he's coached football in?Can no one talk about Larry Brown in all the towns he's coached in?If either were the case, half the country would have to be mute on sports.Give this don't talk about Bill and Roy stuff a rest, will ya, guys?

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

Bill Self has recruited only one player, Julian, who has gone on to the NBA and he's a low minute sub so far. Arthur and Rush should quickly change that image by moving to the show and playing. Chalmers, too, possibly. And I still believe Darnell Jackson will find a place in the NBA. Kaun, I don't know.Self seems to have recruited a bit more talent sooner to KU than Roy did, and done it entirely on his own magnetism (as I said Roy needed the Jordan aura), but on the other hand, Roy nearly matched Self recruiting with one hand tied behind his back (recruiting half the country).Frankly, I'd have to give Roy a slight edge in recruiting, but only if he could continue to have a fresh aura of Jordan. God only knows what Roy would have hauled in if he'd been able to work the southeast where his cracker style would have been irresistable.re Self vs. Roy bench coaching...Roy likes strategy. He's a Dean man. A sound strategy with the best players never veered from wins the most games and sooner or later wins a ring.Bill likes making tactics his strategy. He's an Eddie man. Tactics as strategy is what Eddie Ball and 70 point take what they give us is all about.

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

It took Roy about ten years to begin to search for ways to evolve Dean's game into his own. We saw this entire process while Roy was at KU.It took Bill about ten years to begin to search for ways to evolve Eddie's game into his own. Bill went through much of this process before he got to KU.Both guys are prone to making different mistakes on the bench.Roy is prone to relying too much on his fast paced, tempo setting approach and letting his boys keep playing no matter how badly things are going. He doesn't abandon it when its not working. He waits too long to call time outs.Bill is prone to playing 70pt take-what-they-give-us to the point of absurdity at times. It leads to his teams playing utterly away from their strengths and to upsets by disciplined teams with little talent that succeed in sucking KU into a style that favors the opponent.But I think Bill is a little craftier person than Roy. I think he is more willing to improvise and do so effectively in the moment. He's much more of a gambler as his early game strategy vs. UNC made clear, when he finally decides to gamble.Neither one of them will ever be considered all time intellectual geniuses in the way Wooden or LB or Allen, or Rupp, or Claire Bee were.Bill and Roy both play their games all through the regular season very unwaveringly, because they are trying to perfect their very differing styles of play before post season.The difference is that Roy keeps playing it to the bitter end in post season, while Bill becomes a rather surprising gambler if he gets past the first two games of the post season. Slight edge to Self, who won his first ring slightly quicker than Roy did, and who has won at a high percentage at some pretty humble locales, as well as matching Roy's 80% at KU.

JayhawkPiller82 11 years, 6 months ago

I enjoy reading these comments as much as the orginal colums, but now when I read a Bill vs Roy rebate brewing, I scroll down or switch to another article.ENOUGH IS ENOUGH GUYS! For those of us who were in SA and witnessed first hand Roy's defeat, the animosity and need to compare the two is GONE. He had a Jayhawk sticker on his shirt for the Championship game. Let go the deamons guys. When someone makes a contradictry comment about one of them, don't feel compelled to write a novel in response.Let's debate the future of Kansas Basketball, it's what we all love!!!

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

They couldn't get it done those two years largely because Howland is a mediocre offensive coach. Think of the offensive fire power they had with Farmar AND Afflalo three years ago, and the overabundance of bigs this year, plus Westbrook and Collison. Good lord, Howland can't figure out how to optimize offensive talent for the life of him. Self and Roy are freaking offensive geniuses compared to Ben Howland.And less admirably, Howland brought 40 minutes of fouling (the hack'n'slap) to college basketball. Started making use of buzzer to buzzer hack'n'slap in the big time at Pitt and brought it to the PAC10, where the soft ballers didn't know what slapped them (and most soft ballers still haven't figured out you have to play that way if the refs will let you). Yep, Howland has proved that if you coach your guys to hack'n'slap on every play, eventually the refs don't call it and you have what Roger Penske in car racing relentlessly sought out and called "the unfair advantage." Howland was so successful with the hack'n'slap (beat KU with it) that Bill Self adopted it immediately this year and made it a staple of KU's defensive repertoire.Bill is hardly alone in adopting hack'n'slap either. Hack'n'slap IS the new standard of defense in college hoops. It has, frankly, eclipsed Big East and Big Ten butcher ball defenses and Bob "Huggo Muggo" Huggin's thug ball defenses.

LAJayhawk 11 years, 6 months ago

"'repetitive and redundant'" is, well, redundant (but not repetitive) and that's NOT just my opinion, but actual fact. :-)"That was a joke that I thought you, being the connoisseur of all things, would find humorous. I was attempting to be ironic towards your posts. I guess you missed it."For cryin' out loud, LAJayhawk, think for yourself. Howland and Calipari are very good coaches, but they are rookies compared to Roy."You really do get worked up, don't you? I found it funny that rivals.com actually rated coaches. I just discovered it yesterday. Then when I saw your post, I thought you and others would also enjoy the humor. That's why I said "Although, ranking coaches does seem like a bit of a futile exercise to me." I believe that because coaching is an up and down business. I guess that's why they have the arrows next to the coaches on the list. Once again, though, I guess you missed my point. Too busy trying to argue with me.I quickly scanned through the rest of your writing about the coaches, and it appears to be the same thing I've read from you over and over. So I have no comment.I'm glad you have an opinion on Howland, Calipari, Self, and Williams. Good job. Personally, I find ranking coaches a huge waste of time. I guess I'm not very quick, because I should have learned from your necessity to never be seen as wrong (even when no one is calling you so) would cause you to totally miss the point of my post. I guess that's what I get for levity.Enjoy your day, though, jaybate. I'm sure another time will come when you can habitually argue with me.Rock Chalk to you.

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

LAJayhawk..."repetitive and redundant" is, well, redundant (but not repetitive) and that's NOT just my opinion, but actual fact. :-)Rivals.com is, shall we say, an outlet for persons who don't trust their own IQs to think about something as intellectually unchallenging as sports. For cryin' out loud, LAJayhawk, think for yourself. Howland and Calipari are very good coaches, but they are rookies compared to Roy. Roy is in the freaking hall of fame. Roy won 80% of his games at KU for 15 years recruiting only half the country! He's been to the Final Four, what, 6 or 7 times. He's won a ring. I like Ben Howland, but the man has got to win a ring before he gets to be called one of the best. Roy was just a very good coach in the hunt for being one of the best until he won his ring. Same with Self. Howland HAS accomplished something impressive--he's gone to the Final Four three years in a row. But going to the Final Four is not winning it and he's come away empty handed when he should have won 2 out of 3 visits because he had the most talent those visits. UCLA had it all this year and couldn't get it done. And UCLA should have beaten Florida two years ago, because they had more talent and maturity than Florida did that year, too.

milehighhawk 11 years, 6 months ago

Methinks some of you need to learn the value of word economy.These are supposed to be comments, not articles.I'm really pumped about the incoming class, and am stunned that anyone thought this was the appropriate forum to bring up a Roy v. Bill debate. Grow up. He's gone. Let it go. Rock Chalk.

LAJayhawk 11 years, 6 months ago

Still trying to hang on to your perception of righteousness, huh? Good for you."First rule: care but not to much."Someone who takes the time to point out how comments didn't affect them (and in your case you did it twice), clearly have been bruised. I do apologize to you about this one as, honestly, I did actually know your ego was rather fragile, as you will see below..."Second rule: those who feel persecuted in casual conversation are narcissists with all the baggage that entails."I realize your customary response when faced with a point you have no reply to is to act superior and condescend to the best of your ability by personally attacking those who disagree with you (the humorous part here being that I still haven't disagreed with you, but more on that in a second) in order to hide that aforementioned fragile ego. I apologize once again. I know this is your tactical fall back move, and I realize it makes it more difficult for you to strategically engage in it when I point it out. This is, however, a very common practice."Third rule: Persons with no argument often accuse others of arguing with them in order to save face, rather than grapple with their reasoning."You are right. I had no argument. In fact, how about this: everything you said about those coaches, in my opinion, is absolutely correct. 100% agree. As was previously stated, I was not arguing how the coaches ranking should be arranged; rather I was pointing out the absurdity of doing so. I found the rivals.com ranking extraordinarily humorous, and I thought you would as well. I guess I was very wrong.Your attempt at wisdom while trying to hide your superiority complex is definitely a point of amusement for me. So, I look forward to your next stab at insight while remaining obtuse, yet satisfyingly condescending.Please indulge me.

jaybate 11 years, 6 months ago

Hack'n'slap, when done by every player on every play, completely disrupts those who are not used to it.Roy's been resisting hack'n'slap just as he resisted thug ball and butcher ball some years back. He's been trying to outrun the hack'n'slap, the way he outran the thugs and the butchers. But he learned this year, especially against KU, that you can't outrun the hack'n'slap. And next year, you can bet Roy's Boys will be buzzer to buzzer hack'n'slappers just like UCLA and KU were this year. Now about Coach Calipari: he can recruit and he can coach, but he cannot get over the hump either. And Coach Cal's got some "splainin'" to do. He couldn't get it done with Marcus Camby at UMass, when he probably had the best material that year. And he couldn't get it done at Memphis, when he at the very least had as good of material as KU had. And how can Coach Cal ever live down that coaching anti-clinic he put on in the second half and overtime of this year's NC game? Bill Self and Roy NEVER botched ANY game that bad that I can recall. The man had one of the greatest guard tandems in the last 20 years of college basketball and he let KU's runt guards hound this year's NBA Numero Uno draft choice so far out of his game he may as well have been playing tiddly winks.Oh, yea, LAJayhawk, no doubt about it. Coaches Howland and Calipari are better than Bill and Roy.That's rich, as they use to say.And yes, I made this one long just for you.So: now let me distill all of the above for you. Howland and Calipari can't hold Bill and Roy's jocks yet.

iahawkfan 11 years, 6 months ago

um, roy didnt get collison and hinrich. They fell into his lap after tim floyd left to the NBA. Both of them were committed to Iowa State.

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