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Thursday, January 31, 2008

Extra Minutes: Kansas State 84, Kansas 75

By Ryan Greene

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Reader poll

Who do you now consider to be the favorite in the Big 12 men's basketball race?

  • Kansas 76% 3911 votes
  • Kansas State 22% 1146 votes
  • Texas 0% 12 votes
  • Texas A&M 0% 5 votes
  • Baylor 0% 32 votes
  • Someone else 0% 12 votes

5118 total votes.

24 years coming: Jayhawks fall to K-State

Until tonight, KU had taken a bite out of the Little Apple and defeated Kansas State in Manhattan every season for 24 years.

KU fan Jayhawks' lucky charm?

One Lawrence resident has been to every match-up between KU and K-State in Manhattan since the Jayhawks' winning streak began 24 years ago.

Photo Gallery

KU vs. KSU

Audio clips

2007-08 Jan. 30 KU-KSU men's hoops

Some thoughts...from Manhattan

Gary Bedore, Journal-World KU men's basketball beat writer

"It really wasn't unexpected. Those who have come here yearly for all these KU-KSU games realize how loud the crowd is. It's truly remarkable KU was able to keep The Streak alive as long as it did. Fans seem to get louder here every year. They WERE a factor on Wednesday.

Factor in Beasley and Walker, who will be lottery picks in this year''s draft, and you get what happened - a KSU victory. It's amazing the Big 12 has Beasley and Walker in Manhattan. Arguably the two best players in the league play for KSU. Simply amazing how that's worked out. KU didn't play so well, but the better team won...at least on this night. See what happens in March. KSU might win again. It's going to be ESPN Gameday and the 'Cats - who enjoy mugging for the cameras - will be fired up. That game might be for the league title. KSU is that good. KU is still a top-four team nationally; KSU probably is as well."

Tom Keegan, Journal-World sports editor

"It means that, as is the case with every team that has played since Bob Knight's 1976 Indiana Hoosiers, Kansas will not finish the season undefeated. And that's all it means. Sometimes, when a very talented, young team, is spurred on by its crowd, it can upset a more veteran team ranked higher in the polls. It happened last season in Las Vegas when Kansas defeated Florida, which went on to repeat its national title. And it happened again Wednesday night."

Ryan Greene, KUSports.com editor

"Well, there are a couple of positives for KU to draw from. Going 17-of-20 from the free throw line can never be scoffed at, and Sasha Kaun showed that he can muscle up on Michael Beasley better than anyone else in crimson and blue (useful info for the March 1 rematch in Allen Fieldhouse). But Darrell Arthur's foul trouble hurt, and Brandon Rush disappearing in the second half offensively didn't help any.

The schedule now plays out OK for KU to be able to put this loss way in the past, with games coming up against lowly Colorado (Saturday) and shorthanded Missouri (Monday). KU has played very well this year after sloppy wins. It'll be interesting to see how the Jayhawks play following their first loss. I'm picking a 78-50 win at CU in front of essentially a home crowd, I'm sure. Also, that atmosphere was nuts. When Beasley dunked in the second half to make it a 12-point game, that was the loudest moment I've ever experienced at a college hoops game - Allen Fieldhouse included."

Inside the numbers

12: Kansas State was 12-of-26 from three-point range, and that proved to make a huge difference. The most impressive long-range sniper was Michael Beasley, who after coming into the game 16-of-42 on the year from deep went 4-of-4 Wednesday night.

20: K-State's three-headed freshman monster - Beasley (25), Bill Walker (22) and Jake Pullen (20) - each topped the 20-point barrier, and I'll pretty much guarantee that if the three of them do that at any other point this season together in one game, they'll win no matter who they're playing. What went overlooked was some nice depth behind those three. Senior Clent Stewart had 11 points, including a couple of threes, and Dominique Sutton was good as an athletic glue guy starting in place of Andre Gilbert, who was suspended before the game.

15: Brandon Rush finished with 15 points and seven rebounds, which on most nights for the balanced Jayhawks is a solid line. But given how he looked in the first half Wednesday (5-of-7, 12 points), the second half provided a bit of a thud from KU's junior gunner. In the first half, he even showed some nice slashing and finishing inside which hasn't been on display too much since his return from knee surgery. But his only points in the second stanza came with under a minute left and the game all but decided.

34: The rebounding war was won by K-State, 34-30. This was with Beasley, who came in averaging nearly 13 boards a game, grabbing just six in this game. It was only the third time all year that the freshman star was held to single digits in the rebounding column, but others such as Dominique Sutton (six), Bill Walker (five) and Clent Stewart (five) stepped up in that category. K-State also took down 16 offensive rebounds to 21 defensive boards claimed by KU.

3: Plenty of the talk coming into this game centered around K-State's backcourt protecting the ball, getting into the paint and not giving away possessions. KU only recorded three steals, while the 'Cats protected the ball pretty well (just 13 turnovers on the opposite side of 17 assists). Pullen's 20 points were accompanied by four assists to just one turnover. He now has 19 assists and 4 giveaways in five Big 12 games.

Just in case you missed it...

Bill Self pointed out that the game was truly claimed in the first 10 minutes of the second half. Coincidentally, that's when Mike Beasley truly made his presence felt, scoring KSU's first nine points out of the halftime break. That came on the heels of scoring just eight points in the first half and not recording his first tally until more than 10 minutes into the game.

Hopefully, you didn't miss it...

That was without question the most hostile environment KU faced all year, and probably will be once this season is said and done with. The Jayhawks didn't say it had anything to do with the final outcome, but Brandon Rush pointed out that it was tough to hear each other on the floor because of the constant crowd noise.

They said it...

Bill Self's general summary of the game: "K-State was just a better team than we were tonight. You could say defense, you could say offensively. Their defense was good, but we still shot an excellent percentage, but we got sped up, though, and it was one of those atmospheres where that could easily occur...I don't know if you could pinpoint one thing other than, to me, of the 50-50 balls, they got 70 or 80 percent of them. And it seemed to me like they scored an awful lot off of loose balls, and that's something we usually are pretty good at but we weren't tonight."

Bill Self on when the game truly turned: "We didn't lose the game in the first half. We lost it in the first 10 minutes of the second half."

Bill Self on K-State's guard play: "I thought they had good guards coming in. I thought their guards definitely did a good job of handling the ball and getting the ball to the right guys and everything."

Bill Self on whether this loss can be a good thing: "I would say yes if we get better from it. If we don't get better from it I'd say no. There's plenty of things we can work on, and become hopefully tougher. We will not play in an environment like this again this year. I mean, this was fabulous. There will be some other good ones we go to, but this was fabulous. I couldn't even hear the whistle blow. And our guards probably didn't communicate with the guys as well as possible to get everybody on the same page. And we can't blame that. We still simplified that and got the ball where we needed to be for the most part, they were just better than us tonight."

Sherron Collins on what KU did wrong: "We weren't as physical as we should have been. Our guards didn't do a good job of cleaning up on loose rebounds. We just need to block out more, and we didn't make shots when we needed to."

Sherron Collins on the loss as a wake-up call: "It's just a wake-up call, something we needed. We needed a game like this. We've got good teams in our league, but I don't think this is a loss that will hurt. We've just got to pick up, stay positive, get another good win here."

Sherron Collins on what the guards could have done different: "We should have been more poised. We rushed the shots a lot, took bad shots, bad passes, we just made bad decisions."

Sherron Collins on Jacob Pullen hurting KU: "It was our fault. He just did stuff that we couldn't guard or couldn't deal with. We just made stupid plays. We fouled him, put him on the line and he went 10-of-10 from the free throw line, and that's a good percentage there. Just making bad reach-ins, just making bad plays."

Brandon Rush on what happened to him offensively in the second half: "I guess they kind of had a defensive adjustment on me, and I didn't take many shots in the second half and I wasn't staying aggressive at all. It was kinda frustrating, but I still had to play through it, because I was just trying to help my team win."

Mario Chalmers on whether the pressure is gone now with the unblemished record no longer an issue: "We've still got pressure on us. We know we've still got a lot to do. We've still got to win the Big 12, then go and win the tournament after that."

Mario Chalmers on Jacob Pullen: "Yeah, he definitely surprised us tonight. We really didn't expect him to do that much tonight. We knew he was an OK player and that he could get to the paint anytime he wanted to. Tonight he just had a good night."

Mario Chalmers on the rematch on March 1 in Lawrence: "That meeting will be a totally different meeting. When we meet them at our place, we've played them once already, we know what to expect and we know how to take care of them."

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Comments

leonard (anonymous) says...

Congrats to KState...they earned it.

I'm making a guess that KU has never had 3 freshman score 20+ against them?

Brandon Rush? Proved once again he's not a leader...a really fine player...but not a leader. With the game on the line in the second half he disappeared.

He's a helluva lot better person than J.R. Giddens...but in many tough spots he's only a marginally better player than Giddens. KState exposed his inability or unwillingness to go left.

A loss is a loss...but it's only one loss. This KU team WILL win the Big 12 and go deep in the big tourney.

January 31, 2008 at 6:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

soobawls (anonymous) says...

Last nights game was a preview of what our flameout to a lower seed is going to look like come march, and you might as well get used to that as long as Self is our coach.

January 31, 2008 at 7:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

Kirk (anonymous) says...

Impressive win for the cats. I'm converted now.

As for Kansas -- this will help us. But a string of tomato cans like CU and the depleted MU won't.

Even though this was a tough loss in a "fabulous" environment, I can't help noting that this was our first legitimate top 25 opponent. And we really didn't measure up.

I hope we learn from it.

January 31, 2008 at 7:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

cincyHawk79 (anonymous) says...

Good comment above...Last night is probably why this team will struggle to win it all. I love Rush and I am glad he is back but again in a big game he just dissappeared. To be honest part of the blame goes to Coach for not running him through picks to get open.

We forgot about being a team and making the extra pass and just did a bunch of one-on-one.

Also on Self I am very dissappointed that Walker was killing us with his 3's and we did not attack him to get him out of the game. Notice that K-State did that to Arthur!!

I may be wrong but Self has failed to get people out of the game on fouls a few times in big games. You would think that he would catch on.

Again the sky is not falling and I wish this team well but they have to learn from this. I don't mind a loss because going undefeated just is not likely but I just hate losing to the Cat's.

Congrats K-State and we will see what happens in the Phog!

January 31, 2008 at 7:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

JNgohawks (anonymous) says...

How about Kaun's monster block on Beasley!

January 31, 2008 at 7:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

yates33333 (anonymous) says...

Rush is a better player than Giddens. He isn't the type player who can take over a game for his team, so I guess he isn't the type leader leonard has in mind. But he influences the game more than Giddens ever did. He plays better defense and doesn't always seem to be standing in his spot waiting for a pass to put up a three point shot. I suspect he has more rebounds and assists per game than Giddens did. Rush is a vital part of this year's success.

Since I didn't see the game my comment has nothing to do with last night. I know that D. Jackson had foul trouble but he still played more minutes than Arthur. What happened to his offense? Did Beasley guard him?

January 31, 2008 at 7:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

How KSU beat KU...

1. KSU took away Darnell: Walker and Kent shut him down and the unsung Kent did for 18 minutes. This was also the single biggest tactical bungle of Self. The minute Walker went out, the offense should have been run through Darnell. The minute Walker came back, the guards should have fed Walker and Darnell should have taken it to the rim until Walker fouled out. Tell me Kent had to play 18 minutes and I would have said Darnell would have had 25 points. Darnell just wasn't at his best when he needed his best. But, in fact, this was the first time Darnell has had to play against two top notch bigs in the paint for even 22 total minutes (the time Walker and Beasely were on the floor together) and it shook him. There was no chest pounding. There was no ferocity cloaked with a smile. There were four rebounds. There were 7 points. There was nothing else. He played 30 minutes and it was like he was invisible. Walker burned him for a point a minute. Our guards could not get him the ball. His usually quick feet looked always a step behind.

2. KSU took away our guard rebounding: KU's guards usually grab a lot of boards, but not against KSU's big guards. This meant KSU got plenty of offensive boards and more shots.

3. KSU took away our strips: KU's guards usually force a lot of turnovers, but KSU's guards, especially Pullen, seemed unphased by our guard's defensive pressure.

4. KSU took away our 3pt shooting: KSU was just bigger than KU at the 1 and 2 by 2-3 inches. Even Pullen had two inches on Sherron. Given the inside strength of Beasely and Walker, their big guards overplayed the trey line and never gave our short guards a good look at a trey the entire second half. We shot a low percentage, not because we were having an off shooting night, but because we never got any uncontested attempts from trifectaville.

5. KSU took away Brandon the Second Half: Brandon had to be the man last night, because Darnell could not get it done and Arthur slipped back into his freshman defensive mode and had to sit. Last night was the night Mr. Kool Jazz had have a 25-30 point game for his team to win and his knee just wasn't up to it. Brandon had 2-3 inches on everyone who guarded him. In Eddie ball you HAVE to exploit your match-up advantages. Brandon had a big first half, because Walker went out and Brandon's defender had to help Kent inside. Brandon should have taken over the game the second half from the trey and taking it to the rim. Brandon didn't. He disappeared offensively. He did shut Sutton down, but he let himself be taken out of the game.

January 31, 2008 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

Comment: This was the first game where I would say KU unequivocally missed Julian Wright. KU had no big rise to the challenge of an opponent with top bigs. This was the kind of game, opponent, and environment that Julian, the tough, smart kid from Chicago, would likely have said: this is a street fight and I'm gonna beast these guys, no matter what their reps are, because if I don't, we're dead for sure. Arthur and Jackson simply paid Beasely and Walker too much respect. Arthur and Jackson played them as if they couldn't possibly guard them straight up, mano a mano. Maybe this was Self's fault. Julian would have been foaming at the mouth against these guys. Even when Durant schooled Julian last year, and Rush had to take him, Julian was still foaming at the mouth and trying to take him mano a mano. This is called competitive greatness by John Wooden. Arthur and Jackson have this instinct too, but it appeared to be strategized out of them by Self's help defense schemes. Next game, I hope Coach Self looks Arthur and Jackson in the eyes and says, "Beasely and Walker are yours. Take'em on your own, or don't come back alive." Our bigs played like they believed their coach didn't think they could stay on the floor with Beasely and Walker. Sometimes, team basketball is not about help schemes. Sometimes team basketball is about telling certain outmatched players that even though they are about to get beaten, maybe even badly, that we're counting on you to do what you can, at all costs, while our other guys attack their weaknesses. Coach Self, who invokes boot camp toughness and togetherness, seems to have forgotten something central to the Marine Corp ethic--sometimes you have to ask men to stand alone and fight against impossible odds, while the rest of the unit concentrates forces for a daring attack. KSU's Frank Martin seems to have done this with his guards in order that Beasely and Walker might run wild. In retrospect, KU did not approach the game like the heavy weight taking on a light heavy weight trying to move up a class. They approached it like the light heavy weight, like the challenger. Never give up the upper hand of confidence in a fight. When someone says they're going to whip your ass, you bark back and bark louder. KU went into this game afraid of saying they could take them and played like it.

I no longer care if KU wins the national championship. All I care about now is that our team gets its swagger back and tears KSU a new one in early March. Thinking about NCs and B12 rings is all well and good, but there's nothing better than winning a street fight with a rival and this team has some pay back to take care of before they deall with rings.

January 31, 2008 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

areyouserious (anonymous) says...

soobawls,
i believe you are the idiot that was on here two or three nights ago saying a loss is the best thing that could happen to this team............Its obvious you are from Manhattan or Columbia. Get a life. Better yet, jump in front of a moving vehicle. U are a waste of space and we don't need you or want you. This team is still a top 5 team in the country, look at Carolina, they lost at home to an unranked team. KU will be fine and will win the Big XII, and WILL be in San Antonio at the Final Four!

January 31, 2008 at 8:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

I hope this loss really stings. I hope it stings the players so they realize there is more work to be done. I hope it stings the coaches so they will not walk into games tentatively. I hope it stings us, yes...the FANS. We should be filling AFH every single game. Oh yeah, I know technically they are sellouts but people leave early and students are leaving some sections unfilled.

Yes I hope this loss hurts. But lets put it in perspective. Its ONE loss, and that to a decent team. The only thing we can do is use it to motivate us all to get better...and thats how we move on from it.

January 31, 2008 at 8:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

KUbsee69 (anonymous) says...

Yeah, it hurts but it was inevitable. All streaks come to an end.

KSU played better than I gave them credit for being able to play, and we obviously didn't bring our best game.

KSU is entitled to their brief celebration. Remember, a KSU guy can only feel this level of euphoria two or three times in a lifetime. When they beat KU every 25 years or so at their place, and once when they discover Viagra. In both cases they can exclaim "Wow, what's up with that!".

January 31, 2008 at 9:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

klineisanazi (anonymous) says...

jross.. I agree. I was amazed as late as yesterday the KU fans I talked to who said that KU would blow KSU out. Anybody with a TV that bothered to watch KSU should have known this was going to be tough however it went.
KSU is making their arena one of the toughest places to play in the league. KU fans usually save it for the big "name " opponents... The years of winning do make fans soft. The new kid on the block is always hungrier...just look at KU football.

January 31, 2008 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

smitty33 (anonymous) says...

Tonight helped me solidify who our go-to guy is - Chalmers. Let him shoot or create the play in crunch time. Rush will be there if the ball falls in his hands. This game was much more valuable than a 30 point blowout like Saturday and Monday's games will be. Don't worry fans, we'll feel much better when we beat KSU in Allen. I think it will be a HUGE confidence booster when we show how we've improved since last night.

I agree Jaybate, Jackson is a huge key to this teams success against a good team. He was a non-factor.

Congrats KSU, you have a great team. I'd put them in the top 5 along with us, UCLA, N. Carolina, and Memphis.

SOowhoever, you're an idiot, Wildcat, or Tiger or all 3. Bill Self is a great coach and great for KU. Winning the tourney is only part of the season. Bill has taken us far in the Tourney and will only be a matter of time before we win it all. KSU will only have this 1 year to do it.

January 31, 2008 at 9:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

97jhawk (anonymous) says...

Isn't anyone going to comment on how pour the officiating was last night? I mean c'mon. Most times the whistle was blown before contact was even made. It was ridiculous. Also, that Kent guy from KSU must've travelled at least twice and didn't get called for it. There were a lot of "over the back" fouls that were never called on both ends of the court. The officiating was ridiculous. I'm not the only one that said it too. I watched the game with many KU fans that are usually very unbiased about calls and they were just going against KU last night. I mean the lame fouls being called on Arthur were so lame. They weren't calling the same things on Beasley or on Walker.

I hate to sound like a whiner, but really the officiating had a part to play in this game as well. The amount of fouls changed BCS's gameplan and he had to have guys on the bench that were effective. Shady was very effective when he was on the court. Too bad DJ wasn't on top of his offensive game. Walked just schooled him and got past DJ just about every time he guarded Walker, which resulted in a score.

What worked best for KU the entire night was when they attacked the paint and attacked the rim. We were sucking in their defense and drawing lots of fouls. When the guards panicked and started throwing up those garbage shots is when it all went down hill. There was a point where we could've turned the page, but for some reason they couldn't do it. Looked a lot like the UCLA game last year.

Oh yeah, the ghost of KU's past also disappeared. Mr. Rush, where in the heck did you go? Just when we needed him most. He was so effective in the first half too. Unreal. It just sucks cause KU can play much better than they did last night, but didn't show it. If they can't handle this sort of pressure they won't be seeing a Nat'l Championship any time soon.

January 31, 2008 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

PLKaws23 (anonymous) says...

Why are people bashing on Bill Self? I believe that he is a great coach, recruiter and is the best choice for our team. Serisouly would you rather have 5 of our players suspended because the coach lets them do whatever they want.

cincyHawk79, Walker was 3-10 from 3pt range. He didnt kill us from there

Coaches lose games, Players win them. It's an old quote I heard the other day explaining why the coaching turnover is so high. The coach can't go play defence on walker to stop the 3's. He cant run the full court press, cant rebound.

All Bill Self can do is put his players in the best possible situation to win the game. Last night was on the players. They didnt show up to play their biggest rival, they showed up to run through the motions. If playing your rival (that guaranteed a victory) dosent get you motivated within yourself, no words a coach will say, will motivate you

January 31, 2008 at 10:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

I don't have any problem with Beasley predicting a win... I DO have a problem with how KU seems to give credence to other teams' arrogance. Why is it when a Carmello or a Beasley or a UTEP or an ORU or a Richmond or a Bradley (you get the idea) says they are going to clobber KU, the Jayhawks let them?!?

This just infuriates me. KU needs to pound the life out of any team that insinuates (or otherwise) a win on our behalf.

I'm not surprised by the outcome... just disappointed. KSU had everything going their way last night and KU looked like it was caught in the headlights. Similar to the Syracuse NC game in '03 and last year's UCLA game (among others). Damn. Damn. Damn.

January 31, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

Why did we run 2 and 3 guys at Beasley all freakin' night?

Straight up man-to-man defense would have done several things for us. We would have been in sound, fundamental defensive position on the floor with all 5 men instead of leaving open KSU players to shoot open 3s and pick up easy offensive rebounds.

We gave Beasley way, way too much credit. As somebody else stated above, you need to let one man guard him and take your lumps and that allows you to keep the other 4 guys from killing you.

I'd rather see Beasley get 35 and hold Pullen and Stewart to 5 each.

We did such a poor job of running offense through our bigs that they were really a liability on the floor. This was the kind of game where we really miss having a legit 3 man other than Rush. We should have taken one of our bigs out and gone smaller to guard Walker, in my opinion. Roderick would have guarded him better than our bigs did.

January 31, 2008 at 11:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

yates33333 (anonymous) says...

thanks jaybate.

smitty33 better put Duke in that top 5 instead of unc.

January 31, 2008 at 11:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

gibson1525 (anonymous) says...

anyone else upset about all the comments about how Bramlage was louder last night than Allen Field House? i think AFH is the best environment in college basketball and don't see any reason it shouldn't be the loudest. i think it's sad that the amazing fans at kansas have been outdone by KSU fans that won't even fill Bramlage when it's not a big name opponent.

January 31, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

okjhok (anonymous) says...

I'm not upset about that, because it's human nature. When are you going to be more fired up for a game, when you're taking on the big dog and trying to win for the first time in 25 years, or when you're the champ and you're supposed to win every game. Of course those fans were loud. That was a once in a lifetime moment for them.

January 31, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

PLKaws23 (anonymous) says...

AFH is the best environment in college basketball. Bramlage may have been loud last night and they have alot of reason to be loud. Its just that they are only loud when KU comes to play, as every other arena in the conference. AFH is the loudest night in and night out. Thats what makes it the greatest, because what kind of fans will be on their feet screaming all night to watch their team kill Layola, just as loud as when Texas comes to town, only the great fans in AFH.

January 31, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

seattlehawk_78 (anonymous) says...

It was bound to happen. There is no greater home field/court advantage in sports than in college basketball and last night was just an example of how much of an impact 24 years of humility can have.

The story on ESPN last night looked more like a tribute to the Hawks 24 years of dominance than a story about an upset. Anyone think KU-KSU will become a rivalry again after this season or will the loss of Beasley and Walker return this program to their mediocre ways.

January 31, 2008 at 11:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

cincyHawk79 (anonymous) says...

PLKaws23 respect your view but if the coach has nothing to be at fault in this loss then why do we need a coach? I wasn't bashing the coach but he has shown the reluctance to attack someone in foul trouble. Maybe you just have never coached?

On the 3's by Walker - it was not quantity but it was timing. A couple of his killed us during runs to get back into the game. One even banked in which can be deflating to the team. When you have a player heading for 22 points and have a chance to keep him off the floor you need to attack him and play defense. That is directed by coaches and performed by players. Next time I will just say his 22 points killed us.

Best possible shape would have been attacking Walker just like they did to Arthur. If you noticed one time they cleared the side and had Beasley taking Arthur one on one and guess what - Foul on Arthur. Self is a good coach not great yet but yes a great recruiter. Thanks for helping me prove my point!

January 31, 2008 at 11:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

KU fans have nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to AFH. But Bramlage was in RARE form last night. Wow. Kudos to KSU fans.

It was obvious that they had about 5,000 students at the game. That's why it was so boisterous.

KU will never get 5,000 students in the game because of season ticket sales to non-students, and that's as it should be.

KSU doesn't have the demand for non-student tickets because they haven't been any good for so long. That's how so many students were able to get in the game.

Great environment. I was glad to see it. It can only make us stronger in the long run.

January 31, 2008 at 11:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

PLKaws23 (anonymous) says...

seattlehawk_78... we'll have to see next year about this rivalry, I think that Frank Martin needs to prove himself as a coach and recruiter. He has accolplished nothing at the college level without two of the top players in the nation. Huggins put together a team to beat KU, now Martin needs to sign a 5 star recruit to prove to me that their is hope for a rivalry

January 31, 2008 at 11:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal )

PLKaws23 (anonymous) says...

cincyHawk79... I agree with you completley and wasnt trying to attack YOU, it was towards the people that attack the coach when we lose, but think their the greatest when they win. What I was trying to say about a coach losing games and players win them, is thats who gets credit for the outcomes of the games. The game is a team game, but sometimes the coaches take too much heat for losing and players get too much credit for winning, from the media

January 31, 2008 at noon ( | suggest removal )

cincyHawk79 (anonymous) says...

PLKaws23...that's cool. This was a team effort loss.

I would like to see Self make changes or we will be like the Williams era in that we will have lots of wins but will never get us to the promise land!

January 31, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

PLK......Actually, Martin HAS proven he can recruit. He's the reason Walker and Beasley and Pullen are at KSU, not Huggins.

Huggins hired Martin because of his recruiting contacts and ability.

I don't know if it will continue, but I've been pretty impressed with Martin's ability to mold his team together. They play hard and they defend and they rebound.

I was like everybody else who scoffed when KSU hired him, but so far he's doing pretty well.

He seems to have a bit too much of Bobby Knight's ferocity towards his players and brow-beating in him for my liking, but apparently he's able to balance that out with decent people skills off the court. These kids seem to want to play for him.

January 31, 2008 at 12:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

seattlehawk_78 (anonymous) says...

jross, maybe this answers your queston.

http://www.kansascity.com/166/story/4...

Is it just me or does this team always seem to peak during the middle of the season. The last few weeks most of the ESPN analysts were raving about how good we were. Made me wish the tournament was starting today before the rest of college basketball had a chance to catch up. Maybe this loss is a good thing.

January 31, 2008 at 12:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

PLKaws23 (anonymous) says...

KU... I didnt know that Martin recruited them, but also how much of them comming to KSU was because of Huggins, so here in a few years we will really see if he is a good recruiter or not, I would love for him to succeed and put KSU back on the map, it would only make the big 12 a better conference

January 31, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

blk99stang (anonymous) says...

Ladies and gnetlemen, I would like to announce the return of "Phog" for those of us who were on here to remember him. His new name is soobawls. He contributes nothing to the conversation except trying to make fun of us for losing in the first round. He bashes our coach relentlessly. Seriously, he never makes a comment except to put down our team. He never comes out of character to tell you who he really is. So "Phog," I raise my glass to you. Welcome back!

January 31, 2008 at 1:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

We dont need to worry about soobawls...

Actually, KSU gave us a gift. We should be thanking them. The gift? Yes...a wake-up call. A sharpening of the axe. Hopefully Coach Self will neither be too hard on the guys nor NOT learn from this and adjust his game plan accordingly. Coach is a smart man though. Believe me, we'll grow as a team from this.

Thanks KSU...

January 31, 2008 at 2:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

JayCeph (anonymous) says...

I guess I am more comfortable with this loss since it was against a couple of 'one-and-doners' rather than a bunch of 'Pervis Pascos.' I just hate it when KU lets it happen to them...

The talent level on the floor last night (for both teams) was incredible. It played out just like a tourney game and I was hoping for a better outcome but, such is life. KSU didn't stop the bleeding but they sure stemmed the flow a touch, no?

Within the last 3 years, KSU has now beaten a Self squad inside AFH and now at AFH-West. It is sad to see these streaks end but in the long run, I'd rather watch a team like KU be a perennial power rather than a flash in the pan.

Regardless, this still sucks. I woke up last night at 1:30am and my mind immediately went to the game. It was trying to figure out better ways to play against that KSU squad and it was keeping me up. If KU had only won, I would have had a much better night's sleep.

January 31, 2008 at 2:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...

the following is a post by jburtin. i was kind of upset reading it but with some reflection had to admit it's entirely true. incidentally, ill probably plaster this in several places, so if you dont like it move on.

without further ado, here's the wisdom:

"People talk about getting revenge in Allen Fieldhouse. Sure, our players might win the game, maybe even win it big, but I hope it burns in their minds that they were supposedly one of the best KU teams in the past 24 years, yet they were also the only KU team in 24 years to go to Manhattan and get owned by an 18 year old punk kid with a big mouth.

We have guys that are the same size and speed as Beasley. He just works hard at his game instead of expecting the name on his jersey to win the game for him. Maybe our basketball players need to watch a few reruns of our football games this year and figure out what really makes a champion.

We've played some decent basketball this year, and won some good games, but this is one Jayhawk that is sick and tired of hearing about over-hyped KU teams that never back up their talk with wins when it matters the most.

It either time to bring home a banner, or quit patting ourselves on the back for how great we are. 20 years since our last championship is not the elite level basketball we claim to play."

-JBurtin

January 31, 2008 at 2:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

2xhawk (anonymous) says...

I've been going to AFH for nearly 30 years now, and I love the place as much as anyone, but I also point out that KSU is willing to lose some $ and give decent seats to the kids. Thus, they're right on top of the opposing team. I've been to games at AFH in the rich folk section when the people around me spent more time talking about where they had dinner than actually watching the game. He Who Must Not Be Named had a point when he whined about the 'quiche eating fans' a few years back.

I'm not saying it was a factor last night...I'm just sayin'

January 31, 2008 at 3:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

2xhawk (anonymous) says...

Yeah! What kind of wussies lose more than 1 game per season, anyhow!! (can we get the sharp objects away from that guy?)

January 31, 2008 at 3:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

2xhawk.......I think the atmosphere at Bramlage had more to do with the sheer NUMBER of students in the place than where they sat. Granted, they DID have great seats.

They took up virtually the entire sideline from the court all the way to nosebleed. It was an unusual phenomenon due to this being their biggest game of the decade. Some people estimated there were about 5,000 students in the stands.

I don't think KU has that many student tickets, period. KU has a much higher percentage of non-student season ticket holders.

Mature adults being in the majority at KU home games--whether they are rich or poor, had tickets forever or scalped their first last week--are not going to create the fevered pitch that you experienced last night at Bramlage.

Part of the reason we don't have that many students is simply because of the success and popularity of the KU program. KSU hasn't had that same popularity, so they don't have nearly as big a non-student ticket base. Therefore, they are able to crank up a once-in-awhile great atmosphere like last night.

Still better to be at AFH than the Dean Dome or Rupp. Those are true 'wine and cheese' crowds.

January 31, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

dek9219 (anonymous) says...

People, we all need to realize we got beat by a GOOD basketball team, a team with probably the Player of Year for all of college basketball. This team will be in the top 10 in the country by the end of Big XII conference play. We didn't lose to a team we should have manhandled, like UNC did. We have to accept the fact that they just simply out played our guys and Martin did an excellent job of coaching. KU probably won't have one player make the all conference first team, KSU will have two. Keep the faith. A week from today we will have two more wins under our belt and be better off in the long run. Florida lost several times last year but the only ones that count are the last 6 in March. Truly, those are the ONLY ones that matter.

January 31, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

KU (anonymous) says...

Lose to Colorado or Iowa State or Nebraska or MU and THEN tell us that the only 6 games that matter are the last 6 in March.

If you can't enjoy a 20-1 start, there's something seriously askew about your expectations. If you can't enjoy KU winning 3 or 4 conference championships in a row, there's something seriously askew about your expectations. If you can't enjoy watching the way KU plays defense, there's something seriously askew about your expectations.

Yes, it would be nice to win a national championship. But I sure enjoy the cold, dark winter season a lot more because of KU basketball, win or lose.

January 31, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

2xhawk (anonymous) says...

Hear, Hear! (here, here?). This isn't like college football where one regular season loss will knock you out of the post-season title chase.

January 31, 2008 at 5:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Strikewso (anonymous) says...

They finally beat us and then their assistant coach gets a DUI. How incredibly embarrassing for them! Even in victory they proved they have no class.

January 31, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

robot (Robin Smith) says...

Beasley came to KSU because of assistant coach Dalonte West and he has said so.

Walker came because of Huggins and it is to Martin's credit that he stuck around.

How long did Robinson sit on the bench when they incorrectly fouled him out? two minutes maybe? Talk about a home court advantage. In the NBA the Heat and Hawks will replay the final minute of a game because they incorrectly fouled Shaq out. Since refs and the scorers table are mandated to confer on the foul situation, to incorrectly foul someone out might indicate either extreme incompetency or complicity. I'm not saying that would have changed the outcome but it certainly affected the game.

The refs were bad no matter how you slice it. A good ref should go unnoticed and I heard Hillary's name more than Robinson's. And as was discussed over the summer due to the NBA reffing scandal, a ref has to do very little to decide who wins - a timely foul such as when Arthur comes back in with 2 fouls and immediately picks up his 3rd or some suspicious no-calls such as when Chalmers gets made into roadkill by Beasley.

I'm making no claim to conspiracies or foul-play (no pun intended) but when was the last time Robinson and Chalmers fouled out of a game or even came close?

January 31, 2008 at 6:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

dek9219 (anonymous) says...

How many of you heard that assistant coach for KSU was arrested last night for a DUI? Delonte must have been celebrating a bit too much. 2:30 in the morning according to channel 41 in KC.

January 31, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Strikewso (anonymous) says...

dek9219: reference earlier post.

January 31, 2008 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

dek9219 (anonymous) says...

So "KU" do you honestly think we will lose to co, isu, mu, and you idiot, we have already beaten NU twice, where have you been? This team will tie for the conference title with KSU. If we did lose to the above mentioned then we don't belong in the big dance anyway and you wouldn't even be here commenting on this board because we would be so poor that no one would care anyway. KU will have a chance to play 6 in March, I assure you, but we will only play 4 sorry to say. This is not a final 4 team.

January 31, 2008 at 7:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

seattlehawk_78 (anonymous) says...

The Manhattan Mercury is taking orders for a two DVD set of last nights game. Seriously.

If the preface includes the last 24 years I might order a copy.

January 31, 2008 at 7:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

dbenton6 (anonymous) says...

Here's the deal. If I am not mistaken, there is not one person in here that has been a NCAA division 1 coach. Do you not think that coach Self knows just a little bit more about basketball than all of us in here put together? This is only 1 loss. Holy crap, get over it. There is not a bigger KU fan than myself in here. I slept like crap last night because of the game. This is not a "wake up call" or a "it is time for us to start playing" game. We can all speculate what "we" would have done as the coach. Coach has done one hell of a job with this team and will continue to do the same in the future. All I can say is: Everyone who is on the "band wagon" can get off anytime and let us true fans continue to support the team that we live and breath for. Just my opinion.

January 31, 2008 at 7:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

chalmerica_industries (anonymous) says...

I freaking love jaybate. KU is not (should not be) above marking that game on their calendar. Less of the standard order "This is just another game; we have bigger fish to fry" mentality, more passion, more embracing the moment, the challenge, the opportunity to return the favor and take back the thunder in this rivalry. Just like against Texas a couple of years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XxGpe...

Remember that? What an amazing game. I love the emotion, love how loose they were in that game. Love the bandage on Robinson's face. Love the viciousness when Wright threw down those dunks, and the way he had so much emotion it looked like he was possessed. That game meant something special, and it wasn't cheapened by the early tourney exit. The season doesn't exist only to avoid screwing up until the NCAAs. That's no fun for the players and no fun for the fans. Win with passion or lose with an equal amount of passion. Let's remember that when we play them again. No shame in caring as much, or more, than they do.

January 31, 2008 at 8:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

Kirk (anonymous) says...

Hell, KState won with 'tude -- a helluva lot of tude.

January 31, 2008 at 9:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

jaybate (anonymous) says...

seattlehawk_78,

Did you hear that the Manhattan Mercury Poisoning is having each KSU player autograph these 2 DVD sets with each players mark--an X?

Just kidding!

January 31, 2008 at 9:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal )

txrockchalk (anonymous) says...

jaybate -

Please remove dbenton6 from your fizzou screen name medley :)

February 1, 2008 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal )