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New coaching rivals Bill Self and Bob Huggins held a philosophical discussion about basketball during pregame warmups Wednesday night at Allen Fieldhouse.
"We were talking and I said, 'Your guys are playing great,' and it was a mutual respect. One thing he said to me was, 'Isn't it amazing that it all comes down to making shots?' And he's right," Kansas University coach Self said after the Jayhawks hit a sizzling 55.9 percent of their shots in a 97-70 rout of Huggins' Kansas State Wildcats.
Facing a frenzied man-to-man KU defense, K-State hit just 39.1 percent of its shots, including a horrific four of 22 threes just four days after the 'Cats made 14 of 27 threes in a victory at Texas.
KU (20-4 overall, 7-2 Big 12) didn't halt Kansas State's seven-game winning streak, and drop KSU to 17-7, 6-3, just by shooting the ball in the hole and watching the Wildcats miss.
The Jayhawks, who were led by Brandon Rush's 18 points, as well as 14 from Darrell Arthur, 13 from Darnell Jackson and 11 each from Mario Chalmers and Sherron Collins, outrebounded usually gritty KSU, 46-24.
"We knew the type of team K-State was. We knew they'd try to bully us, punk us and dominate the boards. We attacked the boards," Rush said.
He said the Jayhawks were motivated after Saturday's 69-66 home loss to Texas A&M.
Photo Gallery
KU vs K-State
"I don't think our manhood was questioned. We played tough Saturday, but gave away the game with bonehead plays at the end. We had to come with the same aggressive mind-set tonight," Rush said.
Rush scored 15 points off 5-of-8 shooting in the first half as KU blazed to a 47-35 halftime lead.
"I came out aggressive. I didn't want to have back-to-back games of not being aggressive," said Rush, who hit six of 11 shots, including four of seven threes. "My teammates know who has the hot hand, and they kept passing it to me."
That was fine with Self, whose Jayhawks opened the second half on a 10-0 run to build a 22-point lead and pretty much put the game away. Not even Jermaine Maybank's career-high 26 points could put a dent in the Jayhawks' big lead, which reached 31 points late.
Go figure
2
First-half turnovers by the Jayhawks
60.0
KU's second-half field-goal percentage
55.9
KU's field-goal percentage overall
39.1
K-State's field-goal percentage
18.2
K-State's three-point field-goal percentage
0
First-half points for Cartier Martin
0
Second-half points for David Hoskins
1-2
Scoring rank among the Wildcats by Martin, Hoskins coming in
"Brandon is as good a shooter in America on some nights, and on other nights he labors," Self said. "I thought he played really well. I thought our team played really well. When we came out tonight, I was concerned how we would respond to the loss against A&M. The guys responded with toughness."
Jackson had 10 rebounds to go with his career-high-tying 13-point output. Arthur had four boards to go with his 14-point night (off 7-of-9 shooting). Also, Sasha Kaun hit four of five shots and had nine points with three boards. Julian Wright grabbed 11 boards to go with his nine points.
"I thought all of our bigs played well," Self said.
Of Arthur, who busted a recent slump, he noted: "He hasn't had a bad attitude, but he's been seeing the glass half-empty. Every freshman goes through it. He lets things bother him. He played with a free mind tonight."
All the Jayhawks played hard and loose, impressive considering there's usually some big-time pressure from the fans to perform well after a loss.
"Pressure is not the right word. There was a serious sense of urgency," Self said.
As far as KU's first game against first-year KSU coach Huggins, Self, who is 8-1 in four seasons against K-State, downplayed the matchup.
"I don't think Bob Huggins had anything to do with us playing well. I think Bob Huggins had a lot to do with the hype around the game, but we're playing K-State, we would have been excited playing K-State no matter what," he said.
"I will say this : since I've been here, it's the first time we played well against K-State in this building. I totally respect Bob Huggins and everything, but he didn't shoot the ball tonight. His arrival has created enough hype where people around it get excited. I think our guys would have been excited playing anybody after Saturday."
The Jayhawks next will meet Missouri at 2:30 p.m. Saturday in Columbia, Mo.
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_r90x60.jpg?781011941c6c07bdfc65b7b14fce7e91909b1ea6 "KU guard Sade Morris battles Michigan guard Dayeesha Hicks for a loose ball during the first half of the game on Sunday, Nov. 22, 2009, at Allen Fieldhouse.")
Comments
Trouthawk (anonymous) says...
Great win
, I had a feeling we would bounce back. Here's what's bothering me. Did anyone else notice all the nasty purple sitting in prominent seats in Allen last night? Do you really think those seats belong to die hard Kansas fans? I think we all know better than that. If you don't think this new seating system is diluting the Kansas fan strength in the field house, there it was in purple and white.It looked like the cat backers were holding a meeting in section F. It looks bad, it smells bad, and now it's pretty obvious that it is happening. Purple is for the rafters, not mid-court, that's where it's always been and that's where it should stay. This is not aimed at K-state fans, I even have a couple in my family and even though in general they are the biggest bunch of bandwagoners on the planet, they're usually harmless.Go Hawks
February 8, 2007 at 7:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
argentinehawk (anonymous) says...
Now I can honestly say the the Hawks played 40 min. of basketball! Even KU's subs played some good ball with most of ksu's starting lineup in there. If KU can play 40 of ball every game, they wouldn't have a loss and #1 in the nation. They better be ready though, the games in columbia an mancrappin' are going to be tough games. But if they play 40 min. like they did yesterday, it won't matter, they'll be able to beat ANY team in the nation. GO KU!
February 8, 2007 at 7:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mlbowers (anonymous) says...
missed the game because i live in north carolina, was it julian wright who had the nasty behind the back dunk? how did that not make the espn top 10?
argentinehawk is right, if our boys play 40 minutes of basketball, we have a perfect record, and we are #1. ku however needs to go into columbia ready to play even better then last night. our boys are still doubted by the country and need to take every opportunity to get more intense and play with a chip on their shoulder.
the espn high lights showed the kansas i like to see. good court vision, a floor general (rush), and intensity. look out columbia because we are coming!
rock chalk jayhawk...go ku!
February 8, 2007 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
84Hawk (anonymous) says...
djkc28, every party has a pooper, that's why we invited you. Can't you just be happy about the incredible way the hawks played last night? If they can keep playing like they did last night, we will go far in the big dance. Way to go hawks! Crush Mizzou Saturday!
February 8, 2007 at 8:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CindiCat (anonymous) says...
Brrr..that water was COLD that djkc28 just poured on me!!! What the hey?
I agree with 84Hawk's post.
Also.....one game at a time for goodness sakes.
And while I am on a roll (soap box)....what is UP with K-State's Mr. Bennett??? Dang buddie, grow a couple why don't ya?
Ya, I know that you fouled out and didn't score any points but, I really thought you were gonna trip on that bottom lip of your's as you were walking off the court. Need to figure out a way to "mask" your emotions a little better.....especially on TV. Doesn't make YOU look good.
I can read lips pretty good....
February 8, 2007 at 9:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bswen (anonymous) says...
Great game. I was feeling a face-crush all day yesterday and I'm happy today the hawks backed up my talk at the office.
What do you guys think about Darnell Jackson? I've been of the opinion for about five or six weeks now that he should be starting in Sasha's place. I know coach keeps giving Sasha the nod because he's "the best low post defender we have." I simply don't think Sasha's slight edge in post defense outweighs Darnell's rebounding tenacity, more complete offensive game and general tough, passionate play. Sasha can look pretty great at times and pretty soft at others. He's a great asset to the team, and should be in the regular rotation, but I think he should be coming off the bench.
The bigs got in foul trouble last night and Darnell stepped up and proved his worth with a double-double. Good work DJ.
And, damn, how good is Sherron Collins??? YouTube his name and watch his AAU clips if you haven't already. Sick. Just sick. You'll see a lot more plays like the behind the back juke he threw on the sideline last night to shake a double team, slice the lane and dish to Mario. Kid's got some game.
February 8, 2007 at 9:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmwskywalk (anonymous) says...
I like the fact that our guys are showing a sense of urgency. It's what we have needed all along.
The question is, can we keep it up?
I'm going to make a prediction. The A & M loss, as painful as it was, will be a catalyst. We'll find out Saturday if I'm right.
February 8, 2007 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jaminrawk (anonymous) says...
I totaly agree with CindiCat. I think Jason Bennett has done the KU fanbase a big favor in exposing himself as the KSU player that we will be taunting and making fun of for the next four years. Congrats Jason! Keep throwing those tantrums buddy, we're all watching.
I wonder if Huggins still thinks playing in Louisville was more intimidating. I mean his team completely crumbled last night. It must suck sitting on the bench, getting beaten by over twenty points and then remembering that you're wearing a PURPLE sweater vest.
February 8, 2007 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bbjunkie (anonymous) says...
Great Game!!! Now we just need to take that intensity into the rest of the season. Come on Brandon , finish the game like you started it. We need you the full game not just a half at a time. You can do it !!!!! You need to be the go-to guy. You are capable and the rest of the team will follow your lead. It was truly a great game to watch. As for the K-State fans getting good tickets you can blame Lew Perkins. All he sees is $$$$$$. He doesn't care about the diehard KU fans.
February 8, 2007 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jaminrawk (anonymous) says...
If you guys are talking about the seats behind the K-State bench, those are guest tickets. KU fans never sit there.
February 8, 2007 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chase353 (anonymous) says...
Huggy Bear was not really mad at Bennett last night. He was mad because he had to suck that water bottle, and could not get a drink. That's what makes Louisville such a great place to play. Who knows maybe that's really what had Bennett going also. Great game Hawks.
February 8, 2007 at 10:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JayCeph (anonymous) says...
djkc28 is on to something. Just because we got this win (which we SHOULD have!) it doesn't erase the job that the Hawks have in front of 'em. One game at a time, yes... one loss at a time? No!
We have no control over aTm but the schedule still favors KU. They need to take care of business and not get too high on this win (which some people seem to be doing). Every game, KU now needs to go out and prove itself. Otherwise, they will have earned the skepticism that has crept over the program this season. They can prove to the rest of the nation that they have shed the 'inconsistency' label by doing what they are supposed to do.
Kill 'em in Columbia! Then in Colorado! Then back at Allen! Then... you get the point.
Rock'em Chalk'em~
February 8, 2007 at 10:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
isolve4x (anonymous) says...
OK, while I'm really sick of the naysayers, I have to tip my hat to djkc28 for at least having the jewels to show up today. Where are the rest of you? Come on, if you can show up to bitch about a loss, can't you at least show your face when we're awesome! You're supposed to be jayhawk fans!
Great game last night guys! And even when we DO lose, at least WE do it with some class! Not like Coach Handcuffs' team! I mean, come on Bennett, GROW UP you big baby!
Can't wait until Saturday!! muck fizzou!!!
February 8, 2007 at 10:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
Blowout in the Fieldhouse...a real scrap at home...
Last year, we beat the snot out of Mizzou on our home court (79-46) but we lost to them in their own arena by a handful of points. Clearly they gave us their best shot on their home court and not in AFH. This KState team will undoubtedly do the same thing this year (give us their best shot at home) where they will have something to prove in front of fans who are coming to expect more out of them. Off night for them + great night for us = blowout city!
We need to be just as focused going into Bramlage. I know we're perfect there, but we were also perfect against Big XII south teams until recently. No record lasts forever, the question is when will it fall. No one will give us the game going into Manhattan just cause we blew them out this time. Those kinds of games are dangerous because the team who did the blowing out lets up sometimes. We need to redouble our efforts in Manhattan.
February 8, 2007 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lalawguy (anonymous) says...
mlbowers makes a good point that I meant to comment on earlier. On Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, the national media was talking about A & M like it was a powerhouse team with an miraculous win over a potential national champion. Meanwhile, Kansas was treated as if it was an overrated team that got beat by a sub-par squad. Anyone notice the inconsistencies?
As far as conference play is concerned, I think the most likely outcome is that KU and A & M will tie for 1st in the Big 12, with A & M getting the one seed in the tourney. Regardless, whatever happens to A & M is beyond our control, so the Jayhawks just need to concentrate on finishing the regular season as high as possible.
February 8, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seattlehawk_78 (anonymous) says...
The game at Bramlage is the most anticipated game of the season for the Wildcats. Huggins is a smart coach, he'll make adjustments and you can bet the crowd will be into it. I'm expecting the rematch to be a close game.
February 8, 2007 at 10:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chrismikehead (anonymous) says...
I have missed David Harrison from CU these past few years, coming to AFH each year to pout and whine and stink the place up, while the students put the clown suit on him until he fouled out with around five minutes to go. I always loved watching that, and we haven't been able to find a suitable replacement.
We have now. Thanks, J. Bennett, for bringing it all back. You're my new favorite player. Hope you enjoyed your own teammates laughing at you.
February 8, 2007 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lebowski (anonymous) says...
That's what I was wondering ISolve. Anyone know that song?...
"Where, Oh Where have the critics gone?!"
"They bitch and whine no more"
Where's all the dumbarse Self critics right now. I know, NONE of their success has anything to do with him! Whatever.
Good point lalaw and bowers... this game last night is no different. KSU has been playing spectacularly, coming off a win on the road against Texas. Yet, we win big and it's "well that's just what we should do". If K-State shoots lights out and makes it a game, it's "oh wow, how great is K-State playing!" Don't discredit KU for making it a blowout. This was a blowout because KU was that good, not because KSU was that bad.
Bowers... yeah, the reverse dunk was Julian, and it was sick! Maybe it just didn't make the top 10 because the game finished too late? Who knows.
But I think for me, the play of the year is Collins' play that bswen is talking about. It epitomizes his confidence and growth as a player. He practically dared the defender(S) to come out on him so he could burn them and flash to the paint. The most exciting play in years, imo.
About A&M and the conference... Honestly, who cares about the conference and where teams finish? As long as KU is prepared and shows up this March, that's all I care about. And if they play like they did last night, it's going to be a great post-season. I think some of you are a little over-concerned. Not like you can help the situation, so take some time and celebrate those times our team plays great basketball!
February 8, 2007 at 11:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JayCeph (anonymous) says...
KState got blown out by the NewMexico 'Giddenses' early in the season and then went to Vegas and thumped 'em there in that tourney's championship game.
Huggins will correct the oversights his team made last night and they will be ready for KU when they go to AllenWest.
I hope KU doesn't let up. They better go out and try to ram the score down the opponent's throats for the rest of the season... including the NCAAs.
February 8, 2007 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justanotherfan (anonymous) says...
I've said it before, but I will reinterate it here. KU will get Mizzou's best shot in Columbia this weekend. It's their game of the year, a chance to salvage an otherwise disappointing season. They will get K-State's best shot at Bramlage later this month, with K-State trying to trump up its postseason resume. The trip to Colorado will be a battle (Patton's last stand as Buffs coach is sure to ignite his players, not to mention the embarassment they took at AFH). These Hawks will get everyone's best shot from here on out. They will be in a battle every time they take the floor. And don't forget about Texas and a resurgent OU team.
Nonetheless, the Hawks are better when Rush and Wright start fast (see my comment in the Keegan ratings for more about that).
Today should be a day to applaud Bill Self for making sure his guys kept their foot on the gas after the first half, opening the second half on a run that removed all doubt. Remember, this team is growing, too. They are maturing from ballyhooed freshmen and sophs (probably our five best guys) to a basketball team with people that fill roles and get the job done. Look at the growth of this team from this time last year to now. Look at the progress of Rush (from scorer to defensive stopper/ complete player). Look at Sherron Collins (from out of control freshman streetballer to conference play linchpin). Look at Mario Chalmers (anybody remember the guy that couldn't get it done in Dec of 2005, now he's the guy that takes big shots in big games). Look at Russell Robinson (couldn't see the light of day as a freshman, now a key cog and legitimate starter). Look at Darnell Jackson (from a big burly brusier to a guy that hustles and pounds inside for every minute he's on the floor). Self has developed his players all the way down the line. They continue to develop. Give the man his due.
February 8, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Royaljayhwk (anonymous) says...
I'm not worried about the lack of respect that the team is getting. The last few years, Kansas has been put in the spotlight by ESPN and CBS and have broken down. Let's stay quiet and be the quiet 1 or 2 seed. And then just blow through the tourney. Why do they need respect from the rest of the country when we, the true fans and the players know what they are and what they can do? Go Hawks! Beak 'em!
February 8, 2007 at 11:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kickazzkurtz (anonymous) says...
If KU could play like this every game for 40 minutes? If they could then they wouldn't be human. Self always says there will be games when your not hitting shots and that is when you have to limit turnovers and win with defense.
KU will have a hell of a time winning at MU and K-State. KSU will be jacked up when we show up and they will shoot lights out. Same for MU probably. KU shouldn't worry about winning the conference. Just improve as a team and learn from any losses we do have and get ready for the tournament. A conference championship is not required for a National Championship.
February 8, 2007 at 11:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kickazzkurtz (anonymous) says...
Hey I was in Indianapolis on Tuesday night and ran into Nick Collison and Luke Ridnour. They were in town to play the Pacers. Nick is so busy with NBA ball that he didn't know who KU played next or when. I told him KSU and he noted how improved Kstate is. He was also wondering when we played Texas.
Nick has been doing very well lately now that he is playing more due to Fortson's injury. Was cool to see a KU grad just hanging out at the mall.
February 8, 2007 at 11:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jaminrawk (anonymous) says...
I love Jason Bennett. What a gem. I feel like Huggins recruited him so that KU has someone to make fun of. From the temper tantrum to the W.T. goatee, he is the perfect guy to love-to-hate. I thought last night's game was a commercial for Nationwide Insurance. Life comes at you fast KSU! Bennett, fries!
February 8, 2007 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KStater (Kristen Murphy) says...
On behalf of all K-State fans - I apologize for the oversized baby the Wildcats have on their team. What an idiot. He played right into the students hands. I was hoping he would shed a tear after getting fouled out. Can I roll my eyes on here?! He was a moron.
And K-State failed to get on the bus in Manhattan. What an awful game. Good thing my tickets were free! Oh and that was my first time at a men's game at Allen Fieldhouse. It was very pleasant and very loud. Great school spirit. Never doubted it. And where the heck did that Collins kid come from?! Good grief he's great!
February 8, 2007 at 12:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
argentinehawk (anonymous) says...
Wow jross. I think you're right, as a matter of fact, I know you're right. "This KState team will undoubtedly do the same thing this year (give us their 'best shot' at home)" You know, some people would say that that is a myth. I just can't put my finger on who would say that at this moment. Hummmm??!
I'm just playing with you jross, I'm just trying to keep things "positive."
"We need to redouble our efforts in Manhattan." I alsom agree with that too, jross. Like I said in my earlier post, if KU plays 40 of ball, EVERY game, KU is probably unstoppable! GO KU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
February 8, 2007 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
84Hawk (anonymous) says...
KStater, You're great. Thanks for your nice comments. Unexpected, but really nice to hear. I hate to say it, but I hope the Jayhawks win in Manhattan too. Good luck to your team though.
February 8, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CindiCat (anonymous) says...
KStater, very nice post and I for one accept your apology :)
I think I might have seen a little tear....but, I was too busy laughing through MY tears!!
Unfortunately, for Mr. Bennett, he kicked open the door on this one and I am sure that the KU fans are gonna continue to have a FIELD day with him. He will just have to grin and bear it.
February 8, 2007 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JayCeph (anonymous) says...
It might just be me, but the tone of KStater's post sounds a touch too facetious. In fact, I would wager that KStater is actually a 'KUer.'
Funny, nonetheless. Keep up the sarcasm!
February 8, 2007 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wiltstilt (anonymous) says...
I just want to congratulate coach Self for single-handedly kicking the crap out of the wildcats last night. It was readily apparent after the A&M game (when all the negative posters came out of their closets), that a loss (to a quality team who got very fortunate) is entirely his fault, and means for him being replaced... does this mean he should get an extension and raise after this game? One could argue that KSU was the hottest team in the league, and we absolutely dominated them from start to finish. Had it not been for all the whistles, we probably would've won by 40.
Good job, coach.
February 8, 2007 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bmcmich1 (anonymous) says...
It's always great to remind little brother who is boss when it comes to basketball and football, especially when they come in cocky. Some purple pukes even had the audacity to get on this very message board and talk noise earlier this week. K-Suck is mediocre in every sense of the word when it comes to collegiate athletics, and the fact that we remind them of that year in and year out is a source of great satisfaction for me. Wow, what a GREAT way to show a new coach how it's gonna be throughout the rest of his tenure at the institution of higher farming when he plays KU. Even in football last fall, we proved that our win in '04 was legit and their little winning period in the '90s was OVER--and oh, by the way, the all time series mark is 61-31-5 in our favor.
Many of you are turning your focus to Mizzou and other future matchups, which is fine--Me? I am going to take this day to take pride in the fact that I have never owned and never will own anything purple, and have never lived or will ever live in that DUMP in Riley County they try to pass off as a college town --but most of all, celebrate another great day to be a jayhawk! we own the state of kansas--always have, always will.
i hate you K-Suck, and I hope your school bus got a flat going home on I-70 last night--may you never win in Allen East or West again.
February 8, 2007 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JayCeph (anonymous) says...
wow
seething
February 8, 2007 at 1:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
argentinehawk (anonymous) says...
Nice, bmcmich1!! Nicely put.
February 8, 2007 at 1:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
Argentine...
I knew my point wouldn't be lost on you! For all the jostling that's gone on back and forth between us, I credit you with trying to keep things on a positive note. In general, I understand why disagreements here become so strongly contested. People are passionate about these Jayhawks and have very strong feelings and opinions about them. Sometimes Ive reminded people and sometimes Ive had to be reminded (thanks Lebowski, et. al) that we're all on the same side when it comes down to it.
Having said that, I have never been one to back away from an opinion, and I can tell from our previous debates that neither are you. As it should be. That's the kind of fan that would walk into hell and back to retrieve a win for the Crimson and Blue. Nevertheless, I look forward to future interchanges of opinions and spirited debate with you. There will obviously be times when we agree and times when I'll have to correct you.
just kidding.
Stay faithful to Old KU...
February 8, 2007 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
argentinehawk (anonymous) says...
I'm starting to like you jross!! But, that can change :-}
February 8, 2007 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
willie_wildcat (anonymous) says...
I will second KStater- Bennett was being a big old baby out there last night. It was rather embarassing indeed. So hopefully all the KU fans got a great laugh out of his antics.
I have read all the posts so far and thanks for not berating K State too hard :P I know I am opening myself to a barrage by coming on here. But bmcmich1 what threw you out of whack? Why so hateful? I am a KSU almuni and damn proud of it.
February 8, 2007 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lebowski (anonymous) says...
Well said, Royal. Agreed, mostly. But KU can not ever be a "quiet" 1 or 2 seed. Putting the letters "K" and "U" together is very loud! :)
The "Jayhawk" name precedes the team and everything it does. We could know very little about Kentucky, Duke, UConn, unc, ucla.... but we know it's going to be a battle simply because of the names on their chests.
February 8, 2007 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CindiCat (anonymous) says...
DANG...............bmcmich1. Take a breath
Step away from the caffeine there buddie.
Message received LOUD and clear!!
February 8, 2007 at 1:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
My 7-year-old son told me this. I didn't know whether to wash his mouth out with soap or give him a high five.
Two friends...
One fan with "KU" emblazoned on his shirt, the other's adorned with "KSU".
KState guy: Where's the "S" between those letters?
KU guy: Step off. We kicked the "S" outta "KSU" last night.
February 8, 2007 at 1:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CindiCat (anonymous) says...
Oh, jross1972.........that is a riot!!
I "vote" for the high five.
Too flippin funnie :)
February 8, 2007 at 1:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lebowski (anonymous) says...
Ah thanks jross. And I can say the same thing to you. I've shared a lot of points of view with you, but I do lose focus sometimes, obviously!
There is some inspiring, thought provoking discussion on here. It's just unfortunate that after some rough games, you usually have to sift through a little manure to find it! But I'll do anything to try to influence the culture of KU being a great basketball school with rational and knowledgable fans.
February 8, 2007 at 1:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CMKUbLu304 (anonymous) says...
does anyone else notice that after a loss we seem to come back and blast anybody we play? Maybe we should schedule some fake games that don't count and that are rigged for us to lose so we'll just crush every team we play after that.
February 8, 2007 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moorobs5 (anonymous) says...
I don't get it either. I'm a KU alum but grew up in a K-State family. If they're not playing us I'll root for any Big-12 team but I save the strong emotions for the Jayhawks.
February 8, 2007 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
princess (anonymous) says...
Hell yeah a high five!!
And it is great to see that a good old fashioned KSU thrashing has warmed things between you and Argentine. You two little Jayhawks weren't playing nice there for a while:)
February 8, 2007 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
princess (anonymous) says...
Also, wtf is up with the "free tickets" the KStater posted about?
February 8, 2007 at 1:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Jaminrawk (anonymous) says...
I typically root for the Big 12, but I'd never under any circumstances root for Mizzou. That just prroves that KU vs. MU is a more bitter rivalry. It makes me mad that this rivalry doesn't get more credit. There is actual hate between these programs, we just don't have Dick Vitale at every game, saying the same things every time. I also loved that Vitale was saying that Duke should be a #2 seed during the KU vs. A&M game. Three losses-in-a-row later I'd say ... probably not.
February 8, 2007 at 2:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lebowski (anonymous) says...
I SOOOO very much agree totally, Jamin. The problem with the rivalry and it's lack of recognition is that Mizzou sucks so totally, royally, completely, insanely, horribly bad! If Mizzou stepped it up about 20 notches, it'd get a lot more hype nationally.
February 8, 2007 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mlbowers (anonymous) says...
i don't usually agree with many people about how the jayhawks should be handled, but jayceph you have to get props for the mention of louisville and the purple mistake!
playing with a sense of urgency is just what the doctor ordered. we should be happy with our win but not content. there is a lot of season left and people are preparing for us...hopefully we are doing the same.
kstater is probably a ku fan. hey...where did the that kstater come from! (collins refrence)
webmocker if you are out there...you got yours didn't you buddy!
February 8, 2007 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
momX4 (anonymous) says...
I am a KSU grad but a die hard KU basketball fan. Rock Chalk!! On occasion I cheer for KSU basketball but after watching J. Bennett and his huge tantrum last night, I won't be rooting for them any time soon. Come on, big guy. You are on national television and acting out worse then my 5 year old when he doesn't get candy at HyVee. I was embarrassed watching him. Can you imagine how his mom must have felt? To raise a young man to act out like that bc he fouled out of a bb game and played terrible. Give me a break. Put on your big boy pants and play the game!! Huggins should have been in his face about disrecting his team and his uniform on television at that! Embarrassing! He deserves all the heckling he gets from here on out.
February 8, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
First, good play, good play, good play.
Second, don't get the big head, because they only shot 4 of 22 from trifectaville.
Third, who was guarding Maybank, who got 26 pts. How did that happen?
Fourth, both coaches agree that it all comes down to putting the ball in the basket, so...
Multiple Choice Test Question: How come they recruit so many guys who can't shoot?
A. There aren't 12 guys who can shoot that want scholarships to KU (or any D1 school for that matter).
B. It doesn't matter if you can shoot, if you aren't athletic enough to get your shot off, and there just aren't 12 athletic guys who can shoot that want scholarships to KU (or to any one school for that matter).
C. You can't get the ball to shoot it in, if you haven't got some great defenders to get the stops, and there just aren't 12 great defenders who can shoot that want scholarships to KU, or any other school for that matter.
D. You can't get the ball to shoot it in, if you haven't got some great rebounders to vacuum the defensive glass, and there just aren't 12 (or even four) great rebounders who can shoot that want to scholarships to KU, or any other school for that matter.
E. A, B and C
F. B, C and D
G. All of the above.
Class dismissed. :-)
February 8, 2007 at 3:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seattlehawk_78 (anonymous) says...
Sounds like you have some issues bmcmich.
As much as I like beating KSU, I can't say I hate them. In fact, I have rooted for them from time to time in football. I was disappointed when A&M beat them in the conference title game denying them an opportunity to play for a national title. It may not make for much of an in-state rivalry but I kind of liked it when they were good in football and horrible in basketball. The State of Kansas is/was well represented in college sports.
I've only been to Manhattan once, but for the record I think the Little Apple is an okay college town. Save your venom for Mizwho.
February 8, 2007 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
Many are feeling like Collins deserves to get more minutes from RR. Some think Collins should get the start instead of RR. I was even beginning to feel bad for RR. I figured he was losing out to Collins.
But then I looked at the minutes vs. KSU.
Collins: 28
RR: 28
Over the last few games, Colllins is playing more and RR is playing a bit less, but not as much less as Collins is playing more, it seems to me.
So who is Collins taking minutes from? Who should we be feeling sorry for?
By my guesstimate, Self is taking about equal amounts of minutes from RR and Mario to give to Collins; that's rather diplomatic and clever of Coach Self, is it not? It cushions the blow and asks two team leaders to make slight sacrifices to make room for a young gun. But their cut backs seem not quite large enough to account for Collins added minutes.
But I also sense that Collins may be being given a helping of someone else's minutes too. But who's? I reckon Self is giving him the few minutes Case and Stewart used to get, but that was not entirely the case last night, where both of these guys got in at least at the end.
So from whom then?
Did anyone notice that Brandon was down from 36 minutes vs. TAMU to 28 minutes vs. KSU? Now this seems like a block of minutes that could account for quite a bit of Collins increase in the KSU game at least.
And it coincides with a sharp decline in FGAs by Rush in Twofecta land...and with by Collins simultaneous spike in same.
Could this trend of fewer Rush minutes continue, or was it solely attributable to the blow out?
On the downside, did Rush playing defense for only 28 minutes have anything to do with the conspicuous 26 flurry of Maybank?
Enquiring minds at least wonder?
February 8, 2007 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
Dude, you rooted for ksu?
are you serious???
February 8, 2007 at 4:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lebowski (anonymous) says...
All good points jaybate. I think Rush's lost minutes were mostly because of 3 or 4 factors. The blowout and the fact he had 4 personal fouls. Very little possibility of it being the 1 rebound he had. I don't see that as much of a problem since we dominated them on the glass anyway. I think finding minutes for our biggest playmaker of late was a slight factor. That compounded with the fact that Chalmers was finally able to not log 4 or more fouls. Usually, Collins' spot is found by default of having to bench someone for foul trouble.
I'll bet he keeps getting his 30+ min per game.
February 8, 2007 at 4:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JayCeph (anonymous) says...
I can understand seatlehawk's perspective. I lived out of state for some time and I loved it whenever anything popped up in the world of sports news that involved Kansas... in any regard. KU, KState, Emporia State, Fort Hays... whatever. Anything and everything KS got my attention. Its nice to see those letters when one is so far away from 'home.' It makes you pause and smile a little.
I also felt sick when A&M won that Big12 title game. Sad day for the BigXII north and the state of KS.
February 8, 2007 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmwskywalk (anonymous) says...
I watched last nights game at Choppers here in Denver. There was a large invasion of purple clad spectators. Late in the game they were rooting for North Carolina. When asked why, one replied, I'll root for anybody that you (KU) are rooting against. My assistant at work who is a KSU grad has said the same thing. They always root against KU in any sport all the time. She went on to say she doesn't understand why it's not the same with us (KU alum). We will root for KSU when we aren't playing them. At least most of us do.
I find that interesting as well. All I can say is that I'm very proud to be a Jayhawk. Wouldn't have it any other way. I'm also proud to be from Kansas. So I have no problem pulling for another Kansas team or Big 12 team for that matter (except mizzou). i don't know.
February 8, 2007 at 5:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
Im sorry...
Im not feeling the love for Kansas State. From Kansas or not!
February 8, 2007 at 5:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seattlehawk_78 (anonymous) says...
I don't love them, I just don't hate them. Truth is, I don't really like any of our conference opponents but when they play out of conference, I generally pull for them (except Missouri of course). That's not such a bad thing, is it?
February 8, 2007 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LAJayhawk5 (anonymous) says...
Good job, bmcmich1. Where are the clowns that were in here all week telling us about how the Cats were 'coming for us.' Impressive showing, State.
KU: 33-2 vs. KSU since 1990. As stated earlier this week, it's not a rivalry and it never will be.
SUCK IT.
February 8, 2007 at 8:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
I am genetically unable to root for MU.
I'm a divided soul on this business of whether or not to root for KSU. Its never done KU any good for KSU to be good, as far as I could ever tell, so for that reason I don't much want to root for them. On the other hand, I'm a Kansan, at least at heart, and have always wanted the state of Kansas to be thought of as a rich basketball culture, not just KU. Hence, another part of me wants KSU to have a good coach and good teams, so can the state of Kansas can take its rightful place in the tradition of basketball. I think basketball in the state of Kansas reached two zeniths.
Once in the mid sixties ('66-'67 I believe) WSU had Dave Stallworth and Nate Bowman with KUer Ralph Miller as coach. I believe Tex Winter was still at KSU innovating the triple post (aka triangle). Ted had just had a couple good Jo Jo teams playing walk ball and we still believed in Ted. MAN! Kansas was the center of the basketball world there for a moment. Even UCLA was using Kansans like Freddie Slaughter from Topeka for one ring a couple years before and Lucious Allen from Wyandotte was rocking with UCLA maybe that year. I was so proud to be from Kansas in those days. Whew!!!! And since I grew up in KC, throw in Warren Armstrong (aka Jabali) in the mix from the Missouri side balling at WSU as the age of the Afro dawned a few years later and well, they were just chateau bottled, great years.
(Side Note: 6'2" Warren Armstrong still may be the greatest basketball player, pound for pound, who ever lived. If not, he's the most underrated, forgotten player who ever lived. And he has to be the only great one who went paranoid in the ABA and reputedly kept a pistol in his locker and drew it on a teammate for not playing hard enough. And what other 6'2" guy ever jumped center in ANY professional basketball league?!!! Jabali, not David Thompson, was the greatest skywalker in the history of basketball.)
February 8, 2007 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
Another vintage time was when Xavier, Antoine, Cliff, Dreilling and I forget the guard's name were at WSU in some close succession and overlap. Hartman had KSU playing seriously good ball with his one great guard and a bunch of nobodies teams. I can't remember if KU was in the throes of shedding Ted, or had just landed LB, but that era was pretty slick.
So: as I said I'm torn about this business. I have liked it when every school in Kansas was cracking, the two times it did, but, as I said it never did KU any good.
So: though torn, I have to oppose KSU and WSU. Now when Fort Hays State was King, and when Washburn and St Benedictine were on rolls (the mind's failing me, was St. Benedictine on the KS side or the Misery side), I could cheer like a mad man with out reservation. And add in Kansas juco ball and there was a period there when the state of Kansas was a player at every level. Did we Kansans capitalize on it? Hell no. Probably nobody but me even remembers all of this. While all this great stuff was going on, the networks were promoting UCLA, the ACC, Marquette and NYC ball. My god! How they missed the moment. How we all let them miss the moment. But that's another story...in a galaxy long long ago.
February 8, 2007 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
didjabuti (anonymous) says...
During non conference I always root for big XII teams. Anything that makes the league look better, makes us look better. During conference games I don't mind rooting for K-state to beat Texas, or aTm, or anybody that we might need to take a loss. Beating teams that are winning is never a bad thing. Plus, everybody loses. UNC loses, Florida loses, Duke loses. But I don't feel that nationally the BigXII gets as much credit for having a tough conference where upsets can happen. Or maybe it's just that KU gets pounded harder than UNC or Florida when they lose(by the media)
February 8, 2007 at 9 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
"You can't pick your rounds to fight in a game like this. You've got to fight all the rounds."--Coach K after losing to UNC
I love this quote. It ought to be on KU's lockerroom wall.
February 8, 2007 at 9:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CasperCorps (anonymous) says...
Good game Jayhawks.. Its nice to see the backups get some playing time.. Rockem Hawks..
February 8, 2007 at 10:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
I understand the love of being a Kansan. I love every symbol of the State...simply out of sentiment. The sunflower, the meadowlark, the buffalo...even the blue flag adorned with "Ad astra per aspera" plucks my heartstrings.
I don't associate any of those feelings with the purple people. Maybe because I love KU so much, I am disgusted by the fact that any other school in the state attempts to share the limelight.
Therefore, I root against ksu, even when I dont have a horse in the race.
I bleed Crimson and Blue. Have never, do not now, and would absolutely NEVER allow one vibration of my vocal chords in support of those posers in Manhattan.
I love my Jayhawks.
thats love!
February 8, 2007 at 11:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KyleXY (anonymous) says...
"Suck it" Ahhh, the mentality of a 10 year-old.
February 9, 2007 at midnight ( permalink | suggest removal )
jayhawkaloogie (anonymous) says...
I had planned on keeping quiet and tipping my hat to Self for the impressive win, but it seems the anti-Self comments are sorely missed by some of you. So here you go:
Games like this show the magnitude of our potential ability. So why does it only show up every 4 or 5 games? And why is it that the talent seems to disappear altogether on some nights? If Self could get the guys to play at even 75% of their ability consistently, we wouldn't lose to crappy teams. Has Self not figured out how to motivate?
By the way, players win games, coaches lose games, and refs ruin games. Every sports fan knows that.
February 9, 2007 at 12:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
Jaybate...
St. Benedicts is now Benedictine College. Im a professor there. Its located in Atchison Kansas.
February 9, 2007 at 1:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lebowski (anonymous) says...
"Games like this show the magnitude of our potential ability. So why does it only show up every 4 or 5 games?"
Games don't get presented as one big chunk of performance. They are played possession by possession and minute by minute. If you're saying KU is only playing to it's potential 20-25% of the time, I strongly disagree. It's been more like 80-90% of the time, and against A&M, it was that 10-20% that killed us. That aspect of playing the entire game has progressively gotten better all season. (Not just the KSU game)
"And why is it that the talent seems to disappear altogether on some nights?"
This question doesn't make any sense. The talent doesn't disappear, the performance and execution does.
"If Self could get the guys to play at even 75% of their ability consistently, we wouldn't lose to crappy teams. Has Self not figured out how to motivate?"
It's not about 75% of their ability, it's about 100% of their ability, for as long as possible. And I don't see how your'e not seeing it. KU played really well for 95% of the A&M game. People cannot refuse to acknowledge that these are also talented teams we're playing against. They have different strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes they'll just get lucky, and sometimes, our shots won't fall. I agree there may be a little something Self could add on the motivation level. But there has to be a balance between motivation and coaching. Motivation IS NOT coaching. Playing the game should be motivation enough.
"By the way, players win games, coaches lose games... Every sports fan knows that."
This is something that people close to basketball say to site the bias and ignorance of fans. Taking this literally means you just don't get it. The coaches and players ALL hold themselves responsible, and there is no black & white way like this to look at it.
February 9, 2007 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
jross1972,
Yours is the healthy, unified self I aspire to. I will get there in due time. No wonder you are a teacher of young persons. Keep up the good work and don't think for a moment that no one cares. We are grateful to all who prepare the young.
Lebowski,
Easily the best post I have read by anyone in awhile because of a single powerful concept you articulate: a game is a series of moments, not the static product after the fact persons sometimes mistake it for. Keen insight clearly asserted. Don't analyse a game as if all that happened were inevitable. Truer words ne'er spoke. It is a common error of all forensic analyses to use hindsight to oversimplify, or ignore the process of what occurred. A game is sensitively dependent on intial conditions and unfolds in ways that vary infinitely within limits. At every moment there are many possible paths a game could go, though there are unmistakeable tendancies at certain times and at other times completely unforecastable uncertainties manifest. The path dependence of legacy encourages outcomes but erroneous choices and unique features of immediate circumstance often divert the action from the probable. Lebowski, you have enriched my day. And I AM being quite serious. Thank you.
February 9, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jayhawkaloogie (anonymous) says...
Lebowski: good points. I like logical debate. Allow me to respond.
"If you're saying KU is only playing to it's potential 20-25% of the time, I strongly disagree. "
Out of the 26 games we've played, I can only pick out about five or six games that were played very well by the entire team. I'm talking quality ball and not just blowing out crap teams. That's about 25%. The rest of the games we saw some decent play, but a little too much of mediocre or downright bad basketball. Granted, my judgment is highly subjective, but I think it's fair to say their performance against, say, Iowa State was terribly bad compared to the KSU game. Every team plays poorly once in a while, but it seems to show up more often for us.
"The talent doesn't disappear, the performance and execution does."
You're right, but I said the talent SEEMS to disappear. When the performance and execution are missing, there is no evidence of talent.
"It's not about 75% of their ability, it's about 100% of their ability, for as long as possible."
You're proving my point exactly. How long does KU sustain 100% effort? For the majority of games this season, it seems the 100% effort only lasts 30 minutes at most. That's not enough. If they played 75% all the time, they would fare better than if they played 100% for 30 minutes and 50% the rest of the game.
"KU played really well for 95% of the A&M game. "
Defense and hustle were excellent. Offense not so much. 40% shooting isn't playing really well. Self catered to their slow-tempo style. Gillespie controlled the game. A&M was a very solid team, so the loss wasn't as devastating.
"This is something that people close to basketball say to site the bias and ignorance of fans. Taking this literally means you just don't get it."
I was being facetious, but there is some truth in it. It doesn't just apply to basketball. I've coached, played, and reffed several sports. It's the coach's job to make sure the players play well. When they perform, they deserve credit. When they don't, it must be questioned whether or not the coach did his job adequately.
Sorry for the long post everyone.
February 9, 2007 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jayhawkaloogie (anonymous) says...
jaybate:
Well written. But how is it that I can ascertain the quality of your message? Does writing not consist merely of a string of thoughts, each subject to the momentary influences of mood, emotion, and environment? Couldn't it be argued that "at every moment there are many possible paths a [paragraph] could go, though there are unmistakeable tendancies at certain times and at other times completely unforecastable uncertainties manifest"? If so, it would be quite impossible to evaluate the quality of any writing as a whole. Rather, critique should fall on each individual thought, each sentence, each word, just as game performance should only be judged by individual plays.
February 9, 2007 at 12:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jross1972 (Joe Ross) says...
These posts are bordering on the metaphysical. Next we'll be proving the existence of the soul, or the proof of God, or whether or not time has a beginning or end.
Still, it's nice to see intelligent minds on KUs discussion board. Bet they don't have anything like this going on either way down I-70!
PS...If God is omniscient, why did he place the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, knowing his creation would partake and fall. Why create hell knowing all of this?
Answer: God didn't create hell...K State did!
February 9, 2007 at 1:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
jayhawkaloogie,
First, do not think that because I greatly admired Lebowski's essential point about what a game is that I reject everything you said. You made some good points too.
Next, you pose an interesting analogy between thinking about the game as a series of episodes and thinking of a paragraph as a series of words/sentences and your question about the difficulty of harvesting meaning from either if viewed entirely as a series of unfolding episodes and not as a whole is a fair one. Here's my answer.
Your analogy rests on an assumption that the dynamics of a game and the dynamics of writing (or reading what is written) are fundamentally the same. Therefore it only makes sense to answer your question, which is predicated on the your assumption, if your assumption is accurate; that is, if a game of basketball and the writing (or reading) of a paragraph unfold under essentially the same dynamics.
I say that they do not and here is why.
A game is a competitive interplay between two or more players. In basketball, play alternates between two teams of 5 players under a time constraint of 40 minutes. Each play of one team at one moment on the 40 minute timeline alters the opportunity set of the other team. First, Team A has a possesion, the outcome of which alters the strategic circumstance Team B faces. Based on that new strategic circumstance, Team B then has a possession that alters the strategic circumstance of Team A and so on. Early on the change in opportunity set of each team after each possession does not seem drastically narrowed, because it isn't. There's lots of time to recover from errors in strategy and execution and mismatches, even from some injuries, and for teams to figure out how to counter early advantages. But as time passes, the opportunity set of each team grows increasingly constrained by the magnitude of scoring required to alter the point spread and/or the time remaining to do alter it in to achieve the desired goal of winning. Near the end, opportunity sets become extremely narrow in comparison with early in the game, but still it is sometimes tricky to forecast choices with high confidence of success, because of the accumulated complexity of familiarity of an opponent's vulnerabilities and strengths (i.e., a coach calling plays late can easily become overwhelmed by what he's learned in the game and by how much tactical relationships have changed from what he expected). All through the game, mistakes by players unpredictably alter what can happen next and so keep altering how the game will unfold downstream in previously unpredictable ways. This is a game.
February 9, 2007 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
Now writing (and reading a paragraph) is not a game at all (i.e., it does not have opponents), or it is essentially a one play game. I write it and you read it. I give it what I can simultaneously in its unfolding in my mind, and after the fact as I shape it into a coherent whole with a beginning, middle and end. Then I give it to you and you read it. You get to go over it as many times as you want. It doesn't change. The paragraph itself is not organically formed by our interplay. Our understanding of it after the fact may well be shaped after the fact by back and forth interplay which may involve some rhetorical competition. And your assertions may alter the opportunity set of how I can respond, but that just means that our discussion of the paragraph's meaning has a dynamic similar to a basketball game; not that the paragraph's formation has a similar dynamic to a basketball game.
Hence, if a basketball game evolves fundamentally from competitive interplay, and a paragraph does not, then your assumption is wrong and your question that it is premised on is not answerable in a meaningful way.
But your question certainly did make me put on my thinking cap and for that I am grateful to you, too.
If I can be presumptuous a moment, I think I might clarify what you and Lebowski may be disagreeing on and make it so there is room for both of your approaches to analysis.
First, I think the essense of what Lebowski is asserting is correct on its face; that is, a game is a series of moments or episodes that need to be treated as such in forensic game analysis. This is a strategists, or a game theorists POV, whether or not Lebowski would cop to such terms or not. He is not saying there is no connection between episodes, rather he is saying the episodes unfolded in a certain way, that players and coach did not have 20/20 foresight so to speak, and that each episode was responded to based on knowledge (often imperfectly comprehended) of what had just preceded and usually imperfect knowledge of what seemed feasible next (imperfect because one cannot know with much specificity what mistakes will be made when). In turn, he's saying you have to disaggregate games into episodes to analyse any particular game situation; that is, you have to unzip it from what came later in the game. This seems utterly sensible, when one is trying to understand a particular episode, or series of episodes, or a half, or even a whole game. And I doubt that you would disagree.
February 9, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jaybate (anonymous) says...
Now for your POV; that looking at the game as a whole (with a kind of omnipotent POV) allows us to glean a lot of information about tendancies of two teams in interplay over an aggregated chunk of 40 minutes. Further, you would probably say that this knowledge is very much worth using in analysis and decision making and that only a fool would limit himself entirely to strategic analysis of episodes. This is among other things, a statistician/QA point of view. Further, you seem to suggest that some of this insight is applicable in analysing what ought or ought not to have been done in certain episodes.
I spent a significant portion of my professional life as a business consultant trying to reconcile these two points of view so that both could help contribute to useful choices that made money for my client. I was not always successful. :-)
Here is how I came to view both points of view: a) both are useful; b) it is foolish to not use both for every bit of accurate truthful and relevant knowledge is helpful in solving a problem; and c) it is dangerous to use one to do the work of the other.
The metaphor I used to keep it straight in my mind and in the mind of clients was this: If you're going to attack an enemy on the ground, its good to have good ground intelligence about the specifics of terrain of the battlefield so that you can know with specificity the topography and specific points along the way where skirmishes will unfold as you progress toward your goal.
At the same time, it is good to have aerial reconnaissance that forces on you a big picture of the battle field where the individual skirmishes are going to unfold. The big aerial picture, though it may not reveal how the individual networks of ravines and hedgerows will appear to the individual and team on the ground in battle, will help the commander avoid tunnel vision about what those on the ground are struggling against. Further, when chaos breaks out, which it inevitably does, the aerial POV (the global perspective) helps the team on the ground reconnoiter the landscape and seek out an alternative path for advance.
Likewise, detailed knowledge of the battlefield on the ground will allow a team to be scripted through the battle (at least as far as it can before chaos breaks out) and prevent it from confronting a battlefield and an opponent for the first time from a point of view, say, 20,000 feet above ground, that will not look very much like what the team will encounter in episodic battle at the ground level.
Hence, we need and can benefit from both your POVs if we do not try to use the global POV to oversimplify the complexities of the ground POV (series of epidsodes evolving on the ground) and if we don't use the tunnel vision of the ground POV to ignore the insights of the global POV.
But of course, I may be badly misstating both your points of view, and so I pre-emptively apologize. :-)
February 9, 2007 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )