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Thursday, November 16, 2006

CURSES! KU TUMBLES

'Jinxed' Jayhawks stunned by ORU

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The Sports Illustrated jinx has struck again.

"I believe in it now. That doesn't happen. As soon as the cover comes out, we lose," Kansas University sophomore guard Brandon Rush said after the No. 3-rated Jayhawks' 78-71 loss to Oral Roberts of the Mid-Continent Conference on Wednesday night in Allen Fieldhouse.

The shocking home loss, which was the result of poor three-point shooting (2 of 10), lousy free throwing (11 of 21), inability to take care of the ball (14 first-half turnovers), as well as shaky defense (ORU hit 11 of 19 threes), came on the same day Sports Illustrated's preview issue hit the newsstands.

It's an issue in which Julian Wright (six turnovers, 28 minutes) and Mario Chalmers (13 points, 32 minutes) appeared on one of S.I.'s regional covers, the Jayhawks adorned as the publication's top-ranked team in the land.

"Coach was upset (after the game). He said we needed this right now because we were taking everything for granted, from the No. 1 spot in Sports Illustrated, all that stuff," Rush said after missing nine of 14 shots and finishing with 14 points. "Thinking we'd come in and beat everybody at home, not giving effort just because we're Kansas."

Curse or not, the Jayhawks did become yet another in a long line of sports teams and/or players to flop immediately after appearing on an S.I. cover.

"Sports Illustrated didn't have anything to do with us losing tonight. ORU had a lot to do with us losing tonight," said Self, a former head coach at the Tulsa school.

"I knew that was going to happen two months ago. We didn't deserve that (ranking). What have we done to deserve that? Everybody keeps saying all this about our team, but what have we done? All we did last year was play pretty well for the last part of the season and then we got beat in the first round of the NCAA Tournament.

"I do think there is the general mind-set that no matter what, everything is going to be OK, and that is not the way competitors and great teams are."

If KU keeps this up, S.I. won't be back in town anytime soon, that is for sure.

"We've been bad since before the Northern Arizona game," Self said, "but then the switch came on that day (Saturday's rout over the Lumberjacks). When the switch comes on, everything looks good."

Wednesday, the switch never turned on against an ORU team that dropped its opener Saturday at Loyola Marymount, 68-65.

Audio clips

2006-07 Nov. 15 KU-ORU Hoops

In fact, it was lights out thanks to the inside/outside punch of guard Marchello Vealy and power forward Caleb Green, who scored 22 and 20 respectively.

A wide-open Vealy, who made one of 13 threes all last season, hit his first seven threes and finished with 22 points off 7-of-8 trey shooting.

He made five threes in a crucial 18-7 run that opened a 35-25 ORU lead and gave the Golden Eagles the confidence they could stay in the game.

"We knew he was a good three-point shooter. We didn't know he was a deadly three-point shooter. He surprised us," Rush said.

"If you told us before the game he would go 7-for-8, we probably would have laughed ... and he did," KU guard Russell Robinson added.

Several of the threes came off passes from Green, who had eight assists kicking outside to go with his 11 boards in 39 minutes.

"You make two, it seems you maybe should go guard him," Self said of shaky defense on Vealy.

Green, who had a big smile on his face most of the game even ever taking a whack to the nose from Darnell Jackson (10 points, 10 boards) early, was a terror on the blocks, making seven of 16 shots and four of five free throws.












Go figure

11-for-19 ORU's three-point shooting against KU 2-for-10 KU's three-point shooting against ORU 7-for-8 Three-point shooting by ORU's Marchello Vealy 52.4 KU's free-throw percentage 10 Free throws clanged by the Jayhawks 18:41 Time remaining, in the first half, of KU's biggest lead (3)

The Jayhawks, who were down 39-34 at halftime, looked as if they might escape a shocking loss when Chalmers' steal and slam cut the gap to 48-46 with 13:49 left. But Green scored over Matt Kleinmann, who was in the game in place of an ineffective Wright. After a Rush bucket, Vealy iced another three over Jackson.

Rush then made just one of three free throws at 11:13, which was immediately followed by an 9-2 Golden Eagle run, giving ORU a 62-51 lead with nine minutes to play.

"Sometimes you don't make all your free throws and go 2-of-11 from three. We probably made five shots outside of three feet," Self lamented.

KU did slice a 71-64 deficit to 71-68 on two straight Jackson buckets with just over a minute left. Adam Liberty and Robinson traded free throws, then Ken Tutt, who made just three of 15 shots, stuck in the dagger with a perfect three with 35 ticks left.

After a KU miss, Tutt made two more free throws, and ORU had an eight-point lead, and the shocking upset assured.

"We missed dunks, uncontested layups, lost it between the legs and couldn't get rebounds," Self said.

KU will play host to Towson in an opening Las Vegas Invitational game Sunday. Tipoff is 7 p.m. at Allen Fieldhouse.

"It's disappointing. Hopefully we'll all learn from it," Rush said. "It's still early. We're hoping it'll be good for us in the long run."

Comments

speedy 7 years, 5 months ago

best comments of the season! however florida by 20! yes i turned off my computer with 6 min to go. self can recruit but not coach......yet.

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KanKu 7 years, 5 months ago

Don't worry everyone. That team was throwing up one-legged jumpshots and other junk. This kind of thing happens. Some of the worst players I have ever seen play ball eventually get hot shooting streaks going. KU will be fine and will have a fine season.

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chapdaddy 7 years, 5 months ago

Manning, Piper, Newton, Pritchard, Gueldner

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wwwd 7 years, 5 months ago

We'll be OK. It's one loss to a team who outplayed us. I don't think the season is a bust yet.

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RockChalk83Grad 7 years, 5 months ago

KU wasn't outcoached last night, they were outplayed. Those who say ORU had the kind of game they won't be able to duplicate again this year are probably right.

Our guys have to figure out how to compensate as a team for individual players having an off night. A lot of it's-just-one-game's add up to a sub-20 win season and a crummy seed in March, and this team has too much talent to settle for that.

It may have been just one loss, but it was at home and not to a top-10 team, so I don't want to hear that Sun Will Come Up Tomorrow crap - I want to see some players' heads hanging in embarrassment and disgust at their lack of team play.

Bill Self has a great team of coaches and if the players settle down, pay attention and execute on the court, last night won't happen again.

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tis4tim 7 years, 5 months ago

Can a team have too much talent? Serious question.

Before you all laugh and tell me to 'Get a life', or scoff at the notion, just think about it. Would we be better off with just one or two stars and some role players than a team full of blue-chippers who are trying to share the basketball?

Case in point: Quick, name the four other starters aside from Manning from our championship year in '88?

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Jay_lo 7 years, 5 months ago

Let's face facts, ORU's great 3-point performance did not stop us from scoring in the 90's. The fact that they were quick enough on defense to keep us from running breakaways on them did.

They are definitely a quick team, so when we got into the half court game because we couldn't outrun them, they ended up looking pretty good on defense. But the truth is, they had plenty of help, and it came from the Hawks.

There was very little movement without the ball on our offense, and absolutely no screens being set and held long enough to free up our players for open shots. This is what led to the poor shooting percentage and too many turnovers.

Sure there were some missed free throws during important stretches of the game, but there were more wasted trips with no points because of our inability to create good shooting opportunities.

If we had played good fundamental half court offense, then their exceptional 3-point night would have just kept them closer, not won the game for them. After all, 11 3-pointers is only 11 extra points in the game compared to if they were 2-point shots. We missed 38 shots, mostly because we weren't getting good looks. If you make even 1/3 of those misses, and they're only 2-pointers you score 24 more points, a 13 point advantage over the extras gained by their 3-point barrage.

Until we can play a good set "team" offense against opponents which we do not have a quickness advantage over, we will be in danger of losing to any one of them on any given night.

This is something that can be coached, and there is time for vast improvement. I think our players have the ability to improve, but they need to realize that it means more than just improving their individual stats.

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jehillia 7 years, 5 months ago

I'm sorry, but you are considered a fairweather fan if on the day after a big loss you start saying that Bill Self is not a good coach or that Brandon Rush is over rated and then on the day after a big win you say that coach Self is a great coach and Brandon Rush is awesome or whatever. Last time i checked that was called a fairweather fan. Yeah you still show up at the games and watch them on tv...but you gotta take the good with the bad if you are a true fan...I'm not saying I don't respect other people's opinions because I do...it's a free world and you can do what you want...but there is a difference between venting about a bad game and being a fair weather fan or hater and saying that a player is over rated...because as soon as they win there next game and Rush goes for 25 all you "venting" individuals will say how great Rush is and how he is a lock in the NBA lottery.

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ohjayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Not only did we go to the final four after losing to Ball State in 2001-2002, we went to the final four after getting demolished by Long Beach State in Allen Field House in 1992-1993. I was at that game, and I can tell you that it wasn't as close as the score (64-49) indicated. One loss does not a season make.

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jayloco 7 years, 5 months ago

78jayhawkdan-agreed. I felt like Chalmers and Robinson were at least trying to make something happen. I give Julian a pass for last night. He had a bad game. It's been a while since we saw this guy blow a dunk or layup. At least he is always in the mix. Just don't understand why a guy like Rush, with so much talent, doesn't step up and take control of games.

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78jayhawkdan 7 years, 5 months ago

JAYLOCO..

check out my earlier post...i agree, chalmers was much more aggressive taking the ball to the rack than Rush who was lethargic at times...and although i would take Julian over Rush, he better start frickin showing up too.

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Larry Smith 7 years, 5 months ago

can someone please remind me how many championships that roy guy won? he must have really sucked. according to all of you, if you cant go undefeated and straight to the championship. you must be horrible as a coach. people get over yourselves.

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craigers 7 years, 5 months ago

jayloco, I agree with you about Rush. Right now I don't see him disappearing quickly to the NBA. He has moments of greatness and long periods of mediocrity. He has such an effortless looking shot and you can tell by the way he dribbles that his left hand is better than last year, but consistency is the key. I would rather see him score 12-15 a game than 25 one night and then 8 the next.

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jayloco 7 years, 5 months ago

I've never understood why people get on here and state that people that complain about the game or are critical of the Jayhawks performance are considered "fair weather fans". Do we live in a communist society that no one told me about? No one is allowed to question the Holier Than Thou Basketball Jayhawks? If a lot of "fair weather fans" are like me, we just need an outlet to express our disappointment over a loss. Most of us will be right back in Allen or watching on TV when the Hawks play again on Sunday. Everyone has a right to express their opinion. Don't browbeat people into not posting because you don't feel it is "right" to blast the Hawks. Try respecting other's opinions and deal with it without calling them fair weather fans or haters...

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jayloco 7 years, 5 months ago

Jayhawk86-good point, but what if Bill would have gone to the zone at the beginning of the half? You are only down 5 I believe it was and you make them counter your move to zone. Also, when they went to zone, did we not get within 3 or 4 points? We come out of the zone and we get lit up with a 3. I understand your point, but you are ignoring the comments by others that Self should have went to the zone earlier, thus leaving time to claw back to even or take the lead. I don't think anyone is claiming to be a genius, but your statement doesn't really address the idea of Self moving to zone earlier does it?

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jayloco 7 years, 5 months ago

AMEN RockChalk83Grad-Every keeps saying it is just one loss, and in some ways I see their point. However, to lose in Allen to a MID-CON team, that is inexcusable. These guys better get a grip on KU tradition and realize that home games are must-wins. I could accept a loss to a major conference, but to a Mid-Con? That is just everyone on the team and the coaches being asleep at the wheel?

Not to be a hater, but am I the only person who believes that Brandon is WAY over-rated at this point? He disappears for minutes at a time with no leadership skills. I don't see how he is considered an All-American. I would take Chalmers, Robinson, or Wright over him in a heart beat.

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jehillia 7 years, 5 months ago

ok ok...I agree with some of you...first of all if you are going to support a team you should support them no matter what the score...losing is always going to be frustrating especially at Kansas or any powerhouse for that matter. second of all...if you are a school like kansas ranked in the top 64/65 teams in Div 1 fighting to get into the tournament you cannot afford to lose on your home court...regardless of who you are playing. and last...no I am not a coach, but for this team to be successful against ORU or Florida or getting to the final four at least one of our gaurds has to be a consistent scoring threat (about 15pts/game) along with Brandon Rush being more agressive the whole game and Julian wright has to just think somethimes...when you are voted player of year and on the pre-season all america team you have to live up to the hype. if our big men keep battling like they have been on the boards and getting easy baskets then we should definitely be fine as long as those other parts come along like i mentioned above. Now having said all that....the season is still young so Rock Chalk and all you fair weathered fans..shut up and be true to you school

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Larry Smith 7 years, 5 months ago

For all of you coaching geniuses. If you go to a zone to slow them down and are still behind and the clock running down, the zone is your enemy. They hold the ball till the end of every shot clock and limit your posessions. you need to try and force steals and get baskets. The zone just runs out the clock even if you stop them on 80% of their possesions down the stretch.

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RockChalk83Grad 7 years, 5 months ago

I think the loss was the result of two things: 1 - the guys having an "off" night (except maybe for Darrell Arthur), and 2 - a bunch of individuals on the floor instead of the team that was out there for the 2nd half of the No. Arizona game.

I hope that going forward this season the guys will think of every game as a potential repeat of last night, not take any team for granted as an opponent and remember how EASY it is to look bad on your own court and how UNACCEPTABLE it is to lose at home.

I don't believe these players have taken it truly to heart that you DO NOT LOSE IN ALLEN FIELDHOUSE.

And, if they truly want to win a national championship, then it has to be about the game and the team and not themselves & the hype.

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jayloco 7 years, 5 months ago

I don't have much to add to the posts already out here. I am concerned with Coach Self and his inability to beat teams like ORU. This has probably been pointed out, but why not come out in zone earlier in this game? It was obvious they were on. Then, we slowed them down with the zone, only to back out of it down the stretch! Not real sure what the strategy was there, but it wasn't good. I don't think it is a stretch to say Self was outcoached last night. He did not make any 2nd half adjustments other than a fleeting attempt to play zone. Yes, the season is young, but that took a lot of steam out of the momentum for this team. Inexcusable loss to a Mid-Con team.

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suzifrye 7 years, 5 months ago

Amen, amen, amen to karmaxs3 I totally agree. I to am very upset with losing last night and to lose at home, but whats done is done. I hope each player takes this as a leason learned and go full speed the next game. I hate to say it but this will not be the only loss, but with that said a will ALWAYS be a KU fan no matter what!!!

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CMKUbLu304 7 years, 5 months ago

I've got a two-word answer for you. FREE THROWS.

and then I'm going to add this: calm down people, I think this will wake those boys up some, and lets just face it, we had a bad night. Nothing was going right and who knows why. I know that Self has nothing to do with if the ball goes in the basket, after all he's not the one shooting it. Everyone was off tonight... and as a sidenote. That Vealy guy was possessed. It was a fluke. you don't go what 1 for 13 the year before, have 2 points in the previous game and then all of a sudden go 7-8 and have 22 points overnight. I doubt he will have a game like that again. It sucks but even the best players have off nights. Unfortunately all of ours came on the same night. Well, with the exception of Shady. That boy is god-like. Too bad it didn't help us win.

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karmaxs3 7 years, 5 months ago

So many of you so-called KU Basketball "fans" should be ashamed of yourselves. Fickle, fickle, fickle, fair-weathered, whiny, babies is really what you are. I bet you were the same people whining after the loss to Villanova a couple of years ago...we NEVER should have been beaten by that (final four) team!!!! ha.

Get over it. Look ahead. We have awesome players and will have an awesome season. And despite the extremely disappointing loss to Bradley last year, we had an amazing season then, too.

You people make me sick. You aren't fans, you're bitter about something in your own world and are taking it out on people who deserve your support. Go home.

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martyks 7 years, 5 months ago

Everyone who thought we were going to go undefeated please raise your hand. When you shoot 50% from the line, miss every shot you normally make, can't buy a 3, have a ref allow the opposing guards to push off all night, and face a team full of people who are in the zone, you are probably going to lose. What was encouraging was how close we came to a team that couldn't seem to miss a 3. Momma should have told you we'd have nights like that. Let's just hope the guys are listening to the coaches now and move on. Everything before the conference is preseason as far as I'm concerned... dozens of mid majors could compete in our league... ask Sampson... we're lucky we weren't playing a good team... like Butler.

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hawkboy55 7 years, 5 months ago

here's the deal. these guys need a fire lit under their collective A@#es..... that was one of the most uninspiring performances i've ever seen out of a KU team. I mean....good god, pull out the KU-Texas game of a couple years ago when Nick "freaking" Collison was basically outnumbered down low 3-1 and still out worked 3 more highly recruited players.....had over 20 point and 20 rebounds....got a freaking standing "o" from sideline freak-vitale.....and carried his team to a win. IT'S ALL ABOUT HEART.... and last night i saw very little from anyone claiming to be a member of u of kansas...

and bill self.....come on man. i know you're a player short, chalmers pry isn't 100%, etc....but, take a page outta bobby knights book and get your teams attention!?!?!?

oral roberts????? come on guys....

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goldlighting 7 years, 5 months ago

Would somebody tell me why people think Rush has NBA potential? Very mediocre at best, way to slow to show any leadership and reluctant to take responsibilites. We are waiting, where is this "I learned the left hand drive shot this summer." Still one dimensional at preferring a back seat and waiting for others to win a game for KU. And my oh my what a player we have in Arthur, the kid is a beast.

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Timmay97 7 years, 5 months ago

Here's the reason why major blame should go to Bill Self....KU's success should be determined based on postseason. We all know that they will make the tournament every year. Therefore, tell me what has happened to this team the past two years in the tournament? One and done!

You guys talk about experience? He had that with Simien, Langford, Miles and Lee. And where did it get them their senior years. Then suddenly they become inexperienced with freshman and the same thing happens against Bradley.

You're telling me that's not coaching? Two TOTALLY different teams. Self is a great defensive coach to me, but he's got to let them play more up tempo and score more.

I agree that Oral Roberts had the "shooting" game of their lives against a great defensive team, but most of this blame has got to lie on Self. GET THEM TO PLAY BETTER. Missing easy baskets is no excuse.

I dare Bill Self to let this team lose in the first round again in the tourney this year. You can kiss his butt goodbye if that's the case.

Bring in Mark Few!

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geppetto 7 years, 5 months ago

It is not that bad. It is not all lost. If the team is weak in defense and that is exploited then the team needs to get better. If KU lost then it means that there is room for improvement (I guess there is a LOT right now) This really hurts.

Larry Brown may be looking for a job. This can be it. He can keep Self if he wants.

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tis4tim 7 years, 5 months ago

Tomike: Please buy a new "a" for your keyboard. Thank you.

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Lebowski 7 years, 5 months ago

lol lmateo you need some serious help. Where was rodrick stewart? How great is J.R. Giddens doing at New Mexico?!!!! You're calling J.R. a leader??? lmao Did you not watch any KU games when he was here? We didn't run enough? Did you see last night's game? We ran plently and repeatedly turned the ball over and botched 3-on-1's and 4-on-2's. We had at least 4 or 5 turnovers on fast breaks where we had numbers. And then we're supposed to run even when we don't have numbers? Good plan.

I don't think I have seen more ignorance come out of one post in a long time. Some of you back-seat coaches need to put your clipboards down and just watch the games.

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Neom 7 years, 5 months ago

Everybody keeps saying Self is a great recruiter, I disagree, it is "KU" who is a great recruiter, any coach at KU would've done as good in recruiting because of the name recognition and tradition. I would've agreed he is a great recruiter had he recruited Kevin Durant or Greg Oden.

On the lost to ORU: college BB is 70% talent and coaching and 30% luck, if you get a guy makes every shot he tries then you are most likely doomed (not to say there were more than one last night, how many shot they made with hands right infront of their faces). I bet if Vealy could make 7 of 8 3's just let him shoot it without anybody guarding him.

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lmateo1 7 years, 5 months ago

i am a bill self hater. i always have been. why is it we win blowouts with one style of play and then decide to change things up for the next game. we have been running and playing like the jayhawks lately. where was rodrick stewart last night? adding one small player and running wears the other team out. thats why we have been taking over with about 15 minutes left in the second half. we have been starting fast breaks off of routine misses at the other end. we didnt run last night. we stood still, forcing a need for someone to step up and nobody did, like it has been. plus it seems like everyone saves their best game for ku. which we should welcome, without losing. im sure we will be fine, and i have a feeling we could do the same to florida that we did to kentucky last year. i dont abandon ship! i just wish Self would.

one more thing that probably doesnt matter since we have so much talent anyway but has anyone noticed that giddens is playing like a leader at new mexico? averaging 20 points 9 rebounds a game. that kinda hurts. you have to wonder how things would have been last night with someone NOT afraid to take the ball. but like i said, we do have a ton of talent.

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cpjayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Darn it, where's the stickin' spell check on this thing?! Also...Florida, who's Florida?! All I see in the future is a giant that we need to kill in Towson University. Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

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cpjayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

Fire Bill? I work within a mile and a half of ORU but am a lifelong KU fan. ORU wouldn't be where it's at or in this game if Coach Self hadn't worked his tail off to get the ball rolling at ORU when we was coach there, and then hire another great student of his in Scott Sutton. All this fire Bill stuff really makes me question the loyalty I here about KU fans (I'm a native Kansan and a lifelong KU fan but never attended). Our more talented team that has no Seniors, lost early in the season to a Senior laden team that is probably underestimated. I'm not an ORU fan in the least but c'mon, this was a big-time game for ORU and they played like it and we didn't. But I think we will.

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jayhawkaloogie 7 years, 5 months ago

Jinx schminx. Good players have off-nights, good teams don't. Despite ORU's ridiculously good shooting, they only scored 78 points. A team with the kind of talent we have should be able to put up more than 78 easily. When a team of extraordinary talent has mediocre success, blame should fall on the coach.

I'm tired of Self blaming youth, or tired legs, or lack of focus, or pre-season rankings. I want to see him take responsibility for his team's failures. Good coaches find ways to win in spite of a bad night. He has not shown any ability to make mid-game adjustments, nor has he shown any ability to create half-court offense. Every team needs a good half-court offense, even teams that like to run. Self keeps pushing the fast-paced offense even when it's not the most effective. I'm no basketball coach, but I know that transition offense is impossible without good defense.

I am extremely impressed with this team, and believe this will be a good year. We have the talent to win it all, but Self does not have what it takes to carry them that far. Until he admits he needs improvement, he'll continue to repeat his mistakes.

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tomike 7 years, 5 months ago

I am not a couch and I do not play basketball. But I do not agree "the faster the better" strategy, which our players are saying all the time.

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jhawknation 7 years, 5 months ago

Florida is a huge game. Granted. but if we can't even get around Oral Roberts' backcourt, why do we think we'll have a chance with Florida's. Stop looking to Nov. 25th. Yes, i'm just as excited as anyone else. First they get to beat Missouri on the road in football and then take out Florida in Vegas. Of course we want all of that to happen. But stop looking to the big games because clearly we have to start focusing on the "little" ones too.

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Larry Smith 7 years, 5 months ago

OK, since you all wanna talk about how bad we were out-coached and out played I guess Bill must be terrible. I'm sure at no point did he ever say "guys we gotta make free throws and make open lay-ups". I am sure that thought never crossed his mind, and he never let his players now it. I am positive that those players have never been taught how to make an open lay-up and have never shot a free throw. It must be the poor coaching. If the players do those 2 things we are not even having this discussion today.

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tomike 7 years, 5 months ago

Two years ago, there was one team which seemed unstoppable. However, another good but not excellent team beat them easily. All that good but not excellent team did was to slow it down. The funny thing was that I felt Couch K was watching that game and I was sure that he would copy the strategy to beat the unstoppable team. And I tell you what: Couch K did change his style and slow down the speed and beat that team after maybe one week or two.

If you are careful enough, you will find that even Couch like K is learning from other couches. I am sure Self is a good couch. I hope he does tweak his strategy game by game and learn something occasionaly from other couches.

With talents of KU BB team, if we can only play faster than others to win games, then Self would never be a great couch and KU BB team would not be a great team.

Hope KU team can play both fast and slow games. KU can be really dangerous if they also knows how to slow down a game.

IMO

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justdoit23 7 years, 5 months ago

BUT AGAIN WE MUST PROTECT OUR HOUSE!!!

WE HAVE TO WIN EVERY GAME AT HOME!

PERIOD.

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justdoit23 7 years, 5 months ago

CAN'T GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS!!

FLORIDA BECAME A MUST WIN FOR US TO HOLD THAT #1 RANKING BY SI.

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tis4tim 7 years, 5 months ago

And the Oscar goes to...

Well, nearly everyone. Lots of melodrama on here over the last 24 hours.

I'm as disappointed as anyone else about a home loss to a (supposedly) inferior team. But, this is sports. This kind of thing happens...all the time.

If games were played on paper, how interesting would they be? Would you watch if the best team always won? If games were played on paper, there would be no David, no Rudy, no NC State, no USA Hockey, no Villanova.

I don't want to put ORU's press clipping of this game into the scrapbook alongside those other stories yet, but you get the point. It was a loss...no more, no less.

We can sit here playing Monday morning quarterback (Thursday morning point guard?) blaming the coaching, the refs, the players, the fact that I accidentally put on my right sock first yesterday, or the fact I was out of my lucky cereal on game day. It's what fans do. But, in reality, it's just the way it goes sometimes.

Watch this team with binoculars and not a microscope and you'll be more often than not amazed with what you'll see this season.

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phog 7 years, 5 months ago

"I want to make a comment on the refs. they SUCKED!!! "

DING DING DING, what took so long for this ????

I'm sure the refs helped the kid hit 8 of 9 threes, and caused ku to turnover 18 times.

GET REAL.............

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78jayhawkdan 7 years, 5 months ago

ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING...

-nice perimeter defense(not)... -a million boards and we can't capitalize on the offensive end?... -who should be better at creating space and getting the ball in the bucket...Rush or Chalmers...Rush...and he failed...missing 9 of 14 equals drive MORE... GET TO THE RIM with all this "pure athleticism" -DARRELL AURTHER IS A GOD -Julian who?...

Florida is polished and will clean our clocks... mark my words... I know I will catch flack for this post but whatever...

I'm apalled... period!

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suzifrye 7 years, 5 months ago

I want to make a comment on the refs. they SUCKED!!! There was so many calls on ORU in the first half that they just acted like they didn't see. In the first half Mario goes flying accross the court and the ref is right there and calls nothing, what the hell??? I am not saying the reason KU lost was due to the refs they played like crap, but they had a part in it.

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ryhawker 7 years, 5 months ago

I'm already penciling ORU into the Sweet 16 this March. They have talent, and heart, and will play well in the big games. Last year, we opened up 2-3 in the regular season, but rebounded strong. I expect much more from this squad than last years, but one loss doesn't justify challenging Self's coaching prowess. He can and will get the job done. This loss is a defensive wake up call. It will show our guys the importance of playing defense, because it can keep you in the game even when you're throwing up bricks on the other end. As KU fans and alums, we criticize heavily other schools like MU and KSU for being bandwagon fans. Lets keep our composure and faith in coach Self (and KILL FLORIDA).

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Burt Ferguson 7 years, 5 months ago

I think Self is a good coach. But, I can't help but wonder why he waited until after they lost to come out and say "we haven't done anything yet." Seems like he should have been saying that all along if that's what he really thought. I never heard him say one thing up to now to downplay any kind of hype. I think he bought into it just as much as the players and hopefully this will be awakeup call for everyone.

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Jeremy Bolinger 7 years, 5 months ago

ORU could have beaten probably 20 top 25 teams last night with the way they played. Dont sit here and tell us all that ORU is better than KU. Its one game! Yea, they played crappy and NOBODY could make a shot or free throw. And yea, they probably dont deserve all the accolades! But when a player that has made 1 three-point shot in his career comes off the bench and drains 6 in a row? Come on now people, give me a break. Give it to em, they played good. But we are still the better team!

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klineisanazi 7 years, 5 months ago

These guys were ranked so high based on potential and the assumption they would get better and more consistent. It is too early to tell whether that will come to pass. A lot will depend on coaching and how hard they work in practice . I think, based on his record, Coach Self is a good, or maybe even a very good coach. A "great" coach? There are only a handful of those. But you don't need a "great" coach or team to win it all, and sometimes a"great" coach or team doesn't. KU should know all about that. The Jayhawks just need to improve and put themselves in the best position they can for the NCAAs.

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couranna1 7 years, 5 months ago

Yeah they bought the hype and thought they could turn it on and beat this team. ORU should not beat KU but they did. The talent is not the same. They have to get better at the line and punch the ball in and create with their guards. This team will be fine and now they know they just cannot show up and win. This is ORU biggest game of the season and they were up for it. But 4 more made free throws and one more three and it is a different game, not to mention 14 first half turnovers. This is still a special team with a great coach they now know they have to play 40 minutes every game. Relax jayhawknation they'll be cool

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betti81 7 years, 5 months ago

Jayhawk86--thanks for the insight. I agree with you assessments. Players have bad nights and unfortunately for us fans (and the team of course) too many players' "bad night" fell on last night. I would like to commend coach sutton though. wow he did a great job of never allowing ku to go on a run. best use of timeouts i've seen a long time.

as far as Rush needing to be the leading scorer for this team--not going to happen. Sure, some nights he will be, but the offensive style of Coach Self (hi-low) gets the big men the first touch/opportunity. Look for 00 to lead the way many games. What this team needs from Rush is consistancy. Consistancy is the key.

And Yes to Big Tamale (2)--i hoped against hope and watched the entire game but we just didn't have it. I wonder if maybe these boys have a hard time adjusting after they miss a few shots...

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tankshot 7 years, 5 months ago

HAHA i love how everybody is saying now we can just look forward to the Florida game to redeem ourselves. Lets keep looking forward and then maybe we can underestimate and loose to Townsend

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jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Let's hope this team can find some character during the vigorous workouts likely to come in Allen Field House.

Bottom line, Self has a motivational problem with this team that he has contributed to in order to prop up his own job security after the Bradley loss. He did not try to deflate absurdly high expectations. These guys are sophmores. Half of all sophmores play worse than they did as frosh. But Self needs them all to play BETTER, in order to fulfill expectations.

What we're actually going to find out this year is just how good a coach Bill Self actually is. He's got tons of talent, but no post men. He got this talent to play well as frosh last year. But the great ones like Wooden, Smith, Knight, Coach K, and Williams can get them to play better as sophmores. The not so great ones usually can't.

Coach Self...its time for a character check for you this year. We're getting down to brass tacks. This loss is not a media problem, or a bad actor problem, which your unsurpassed smoothness helps you get through every time.

This loss is a "how you coach and how your team plays" problem. The proof is out on the wood, within the black lines, where the score is kept.

Its your turn to come up big, as you say players have to do. Its not about your staff. Its not about your players. Its not about Giles. Its not about Kaun's injury. Its not even about the loss.

Its now about how well or poorly you get these guys to play. As Wooden always said, coaching and playing to the best of your abilities is success. Against ORU, there was no sign of success.

You've come so far and survived so much your first three years. I was down on you at the beginning, but I have come to respect your survival instinct and your ability to recruit and your assignment of roles to players. I wish we ran more, but this is the kind of game you claim to know how to coach, so I must assess you based on what you do, not on what I wish you would do.

Put bluntly: can you get them to perform and at a level higher than they did last year (regardless of the eventual W/L record), even though their heads and hearts obviously aren't in it.

I hope you're made of the right stuff. You're on the edge of greatness. You're in the right place at the right time. You have weathered the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

But time and play will tell.

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jaybate 7 years, 5 months ago

Last year, KU's push and shove defense and twin big men kept alot of teams from shooting well even on their hot nights. It also kept KU from being pushed out of the gym by muscle ballers. They also had pretty good FT shooting game in and game out. And best of all last years team had the crucial kind of luck required in today's game. On nights when we were cold, so was the opponent.

Last year, KU had a lot of hot nights. Rush shot 47% from the Trey. Jeff Hawkins shot 40%.

This year KU starts with no post men, 20% from the trey, and 52% FT, weak defense and when it was cold the opponent was hot.

KU got a character test last night and failed. KU got a luck test last night and failed. There is nothing good about a loss, except maybe one just before the Madness to blow away a team's hubris.

Losses early by talented teams indicate injury and insufficient character to make up for injury.

The fault dear Brutus lies not in our stars, but in ourselves.

We bowed to a paper team.

Coach Self had it right: what has this team done to deserve all the hype? They haven't got a post man. They've got a bunch of sophs battling the sophmore jinx. They lost to Bradley in the first round last year and beat Washburn, Emporia State and NAU. ORU definitely could have beaten Bradley last night. ORU definitely could handily beat the three teams KU has beaten this year. KU is at this point not as good as ORU.

And unless Kaun gets back (if he gets back), or until Self changes the style of play to reflect the absense of post men, KU is apt not to be able to beat the good teams on nights when KU and the opponent are both playing well.

Let's hope ORU has a great season and a high RPI at seeding time. (Continued)

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biggunz 7 years, 5 months ago

and for all those who have already started the whole "can self get it done" bullsh*t, it's the second game of the season. it's a little early to start that crap!

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ohjayhawk 7 years, 5 months ago

I hope everyone will keep in mind that the last undefeated national champion was Indiana 31 years ago. I'm not going to go off the deep end over one loss, even though it was to a "mid-major" team. Remember the 2001-2002 team that went to the Final Four? That's the same team that lost to Ball State the first game of the year. This team will be fine. They will pull it all together even quicker than last year's team did, and do well in both the regular season and the NCAA tournament.

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biggunz 7 years, 5 months ago

self wasn't outcoached idiots. everybody sucked last night. no defense, no made freethrows, no perimeter defense, and alot of missed shots. hell they couldn't even make layups. combine that with the fact oru couldn't miss....vealy probably had the best game of his career, and nobody could stop green one on one. we definitely missed kaun and giles because kleinman just ain't gonna get it done against good post players.

the players got the credit for blowing a pretty decent northern arizon team out of the water, now they get the credit for losing to a pretty damn good oral roberts team that they should have beat.

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Timmay97 7 years, 5 months ago

Self is a defensive-minded coach. That's obviously not a bad thing, but as many have stated above, you HAVE to score. KU has good shooters that don't shoot enough. Their guards don't drive enough. They try to feed the post too much.

Sometimes I think the Jayhawks would play so much better "free" rather than a set offense. Just let the guards create.

As I stated above as well, someone please tell Brandon Rush to show up for the full 40 minutes.

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Esq2eB 7 years, 5 months ago

THe funniest part about this was watching the die hard KU fans who pay all that money to sit behind the benches, and down next to the court, packing it in and leaving before the game was over. You could even tell on TV they were leaving as they game was going on.

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coachp4 7 years, 5 months ago

This loss was the best thing to happen to this team. They have been too busy reading how great they are and not doing what it takes to really become great. I agree with Coach Self when he says they don't "get it" and what have they done to deserve the accolades. This loss will get their attention and help them "get it". It will pay off, no doubt in my mind. And for all you Self-doubters - get real. This guy is the total package - recruiter and coach - and class. He knows what he's doing.

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Larry Smith 7 years, 5 months ago

ok, ok everyone settle down now. After every single loss people make it out to be the end of the world, and how coach Self was out-coached. Being at the game, and in a seat position very close to the bench let me address a few of the comments made above. I will try not to single out players because it is a team game game, but here are a few points.

1) Coach self was doing all he could to get the gaurds to push the ball and drive it. Every time up the floor he was yelling "push it, push it". Why he would have to constantly get on them is beyond me. It is obvious that our team is set up for this driving, and slashing style, but last night our gaurds just didn't do it as often as we should have.

2) Some of the best defenders we have missed some of their assignments tonight. They would drop off when they were not supposed to, get caught watching the ball instead of closing the passing lanes and defending off the ball. I can tell you this, at every opportunity, coach would get on them about staying on your man, fighting thru screens, and to quit trying to drop down and help. "Take care of your own assignment and quit getting us burned".

3) If you look at who missed the free throws and when, you know that they are generally good at the line, and they had an off night. Of course they work on free throws in practice.

4) Maybe its just me, but it really seemed like our guys didn't have the legs last night. How many times did we miss open lay ups, short on the jumpers, and the free throws that were missed seemed to be short. Just one of those games I guess.

5) And when we got the ball down low, We did have success. Was there anyone on the floor that could stop 00? or out hustle him?

6)The 2 main men just never got going.

It was a tough night, but life goes on and we will all live to see another day. At the end of the day it will make us better. Its a long season and I am sure it will be a great one.

"Rock Chalk"

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dashaud721 7 years, 5 months ago

i think ku needed this lost, everybody wants to blame julin and he not the one to blame, i think its brandon rush, he is supposed to be the leading scorer on the team, and darrel author, scored more then him and hes a freshmen, brandon needs to be the leader and demand the ball, in close games like that, he needs to stopping thinking about the NBA and worry about college, cause i know NBA scouts were watching that game and was wondering were the hell is brandon 14 points is not going to get it.

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Michael Foulston 7 years, 5 months ago

mcoan - I'm afraid that your two statements are mutually exclusive. They were overconfident, so they looked past a team that should lose by 20 at AFH and got the a$$e$ handed to them. The only thing that matters is Sunday against Towson. Florida will be the only thing that matters for about 48 hours; 24 leading up to it after the Ball State game, and 24 after to celebrate or cry before focusing on Dartmouth.

Michael Class of '93

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BigTamale 7 years, 5 months ago

I agree with many of your insights and comments.

A win against Florida will be a good test to see what thise team is really made of and a way to take this Nasty Taste out of our mouths.

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hurlehey_boy 7 years, 5 months ago

I watch these guys and I can't stop thinking about the US national team. All the talent in the world (what like 7 Mc Donalds all americans) but terrible, terrible fundamental basketball. ORU only had one player that was recruited by other schools, but the Jayhawks couldn't stop ANY of them from passing and driving at will. They are embarressingly undisicplined, and for them to joke about it? I see better teams at the city league ( wich is where most of these guys will wind up in a few years if they don't get some decent defensive coaching)

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RonBurgandy 7 years, 5 months ago

I disagree with the "they're young" argument. All but two players have been in this situation before. At what point do they become "old?"

Nobody stepped up. TOB is right about that. Rush began that at the end of the first half, but then went away again. Bad free throw shooting combined with the inability to hit the broad side of a barn with the basketball kills you.

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phog 7 years, 5 months ago

March rolls around early..............

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cellogrl 7 years, 5 months ago

I totally agree with I_was_here. They're really young players and they had a bad game. It's more than likely to happen again. They just need to get a little experience under their belts before we can expect great things of them. Too much pressure on a young squad!

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djkc28 7 years, 5 months ago

Self has not proved he is a great coach. He has proven he can recruit.

We need an offense. This team stands around out there, doing one-on-one moves. If Bill doesn't understand how to coach an offense, maybe he should hire an assistant who does.

We have incredible talent, but a mediocre team.

I'd take a team of Haase, Pugh, Robertson, Boshee, and Pollard who are a great TEAM over a bunch of individuals are great separately.

We make shots last night, we win. But that doesn't change our lack of offense and lack of structure. It will come back to haunt us when we play against good "teams."

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The_Original_Bob 7 years, 5 months ago

We look SOFT. Too much jumping around and not enough putting an ass on a man. Completely correctable. Thank goodness it is November.

I'm more concerned with a lack of court leadership. No one wants to step up. I remember Vaughn/Miles/Kirk were leaders from the beginning. Chalmers seems like the guy to be it but I'm not seeing it yet. Oh well, it's early!

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I_was_here 7 years, 5 months ago

a few more questions:

is everyone a coach in the NCAA that posts comments here?
no

was that bucknell or bradley we were playing last night? no

looked like a bunch of young kids having a bad game last night to me....in my humble opinion

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baceman 7 years, 5 months ago

Nothing like owning a Ferrari (for a team) and getting pulled over on I-70 for driving too slow.

Hopefully an early loss is good for the soul and will carry forward a new attitude.

I tell you one thing. I'd have those boys shooting free throws until sun-up the next day. They'd be sleeping with the balls and taking them to class for the next week.

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mcoan 7 years, 5 months ago

BigTamale: We've got 30 games to answer your questions.

I think this loss will help them. They were too overconfident.

Nothing matters now but Fla. on Nov. 25.

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jayhawkstacey 7 years, 5 months ago

i'm worried about our lack of senior leadership..... these losses seem to be an increasing trend. could it be because we don't have any older guys to keep the diaper dandies in line? and with more and more guys headed to the nba after a year or two, it's not looking like we'll have any strong seniors any time soon. although in all fairness, our last monster senior class was the class that lost to bucknell.....

for now though, have faith. a lot of illini friends keep telling me that self can't coach his way out of a paper bag, but all of the sports writers keep saying that self will get us our national title within 5 years. they're the ones that i'm going to believe. for now at least..... talk to me again in march.

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RonBurgandy 7 years, 5 months ago

  1. It is possible for a great coach to be outcoached in a game.

Self was last night.

  1. It is also possible that teams overlooked teams that are supposed to be much inferior to them.

What I don't get is the fact that everyone knows that you don't overlook any opponent, yet it happens all the time. How many instances does it take for a team to get it?

This hopefully will put some fire in their shorts since they got beat in their own house.

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BigTamale 7 years, 5 months ago

All I have is questions:

1) I am a big Self believer, but I wonder if Self wasn't out-coached against ORU.

2) How many of us in Jayhawk nation knew 10 minutes into the 1st half that this was going to be another Bucknell and Bradley?

3) Does Self even dedicate any practice towards the "Art of Freethrow making"?

4) Would KU have won with Kaun?--Yes but he also could have won without many starters (see number 1)

5) Can Self lead us to the Promised land? Or is he just an excellent recruiter?

6) Are we as a jayhawk nation going to suffer another March letdown?

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kubasketballnut 7 years, 5 months ago

Holy Cow!! Our heads were so big they wouldn't fit through the hoop either. I know this is a great team and the kids know they will be a great team but come down from the clouds and play on the court. We can all excuse a 'let down' on the road but a 'let down' in Allen..."Quit it!"

If you expect to finish high you are going to have to play to that level. That means taking the open shot. Too many bad passes. If you are afraid to shoot tell the coach to sit you down. Sometimes you can be too unselfish. As for ball handling...why do you need to dribble the ball behind your back on a fast break when you are surrounded by three defenders? We do after all have a half court offense.

We will be great when we play smart as well as athletically. ROCK CHALK!!! As for Coach Self....I still believe in him but it's more important that the players do.

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craigers 7 years, 5 months ago

When I checked the score on my phone and saw us losing, I couldn't believe it. But then again, I could since it seems that all teams that have the attitude of we are going to win a national championship seem to look past all the other games before then. This just shows what our team has done the past two years in the tournament. They look past the games that should be routes and get their butts handed to them by a hungry team.

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KSCoach 7 years, 5 months ago

In my opinion it showed that we need Sasha more then some people thought. We are so weak underneath right now without him, Green showed us last night. We had to try to double him because of our weakness underneath. One thing I did not like is at two minutes left in the game we showed no "Fire" to try to score quick. We walked the ball up the floor. Last words about the game, "Free throws!"

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meyermj 7 years, 5 months ago

The one thing I could not believe is that they repeatedly left their shooters open on the wings. At some point doesnt a coach tell the kids to stay out on them and not drift down to double the post? Especially this being the case with the kid who hit 7 of 8 threes. You think after maybe 3 whoever was guarding him would not have played help defense.

Overall, I think this team is going to be alright. It's a shock right now and I think this is what the team needs. They needed to see they are not invincible and can be beaten. I expect them to come out sunday and dominate ever facit of the game.

Plus I can think of one game in the near future where they can TOTALLY redeem themselves.......Florida- win that and we will be saying oral roberts who?

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Timmay97 7 years, 5 months ago

Most of you will disagree with me, but I think this is a situation when Bill Self got outcoached. KU has some fo the quickest guards and can penetrate anytime they want. And they did it with success near the end of the game. Not early. Their set offense was terrible. The need to run more. Self was trying to get the ball down low too much. Just let your guards create baskets.

Also, someone needs to tell Brandon Rush that a game is 40 minutes long. He has so much talent, but plays in 5 minute stretches. He decided to show up with 5 minutes left in the first half. So nice of you.

I guess I'm just purely frustrated. I still love my team, but sometimes I think Self is a great recruiter, but not as great a coach.

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cobweb 7 years, 5 months ago

Don't hire those agents just yet, guys !

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